I'm DMing a campaign where I had my players roll 4d6 and drop the lowest. The scores averaged out to be equivalent to a 28 point buy.
Combat so far has been a cakewalk for them. Simply to add some more challenge to combat, I was thinking of upping monsters attack by 1. I could alternatively increase monster AC by 1, though it might slow combat a little.
Do either of these options seem too drastic? Any alternatives people have used for very powerful characters?
If the monsters you throw at the party aren't strong enough, just use tougher monsters. IF the party is 6th level, don't use CR 6 monsters. Use CR 7 instead, maybe CR 8 if the characters are really strong.
Just increasing a monsters attack or AC by 1 isn't going to change anything.
I'm DMing a campaign where I had my players roll 4d6 and drop the lowest. The scores averaged out to be equivalent to a 28 point buy.
Combat so far has been a cakewalk for them. Simply to add some more challenge to combat, I was thinking of upping monsters attack by 1. I could alternatively increase monster AC by 1, though it might slow combat a little.
Do either of these options seem too drastic? Any alternatives people have used for very powerful characters?
For each 5 points over the 15 point buy you can assume your party is 1 level higher than it actually is.
For each person pass 5 in the party do the same thing.
If the party level is more than 3 higher than the character level of the members of the party fix the CR by adding more opponents not higher CR monsters.
Typically if they are 1 CR higher, simply give everything the advanced template.
If they are 2 CR higher than their character level increase the monsters by 50%.
If they are 3 CR higher do both.
More than that simply keep increasing numbers and CR alternatively.
How exactly are they cakewalks? The makeup of the party can significantly shift how battle flows even with more modest scores so that would really help to know.
They've been through a good mix of encounters, so it would be tough to describe them all. They've used a variety of tactics, in their best fights they simply destroy the monsters in a round or two. In their worst fights they still win without much worry. So, I think it is more than a just party makeup thing.
If the monsters you throw at the party aren't strong enough, just use tougher monsters. IF the party is 6th level, don't use CR 6 monsters. Use CR 7 instead, maybe CR 8 if the characters are really strong.
I can try that. I was worried it might overcorrect, but it might work out. I suppose it's OK to use CR7 and track XP as thought it were CR6, for pacing reasons?
How exactly are they cakewalks? The makeup of the party can significantly shift how battle flows even with more modest scores so that would really help to know.They've been through a good mix of encounters, so it would be tough to describe them all. They've used a variety of tactics, in their best fights they simply destroy the monsters in a round or two. In their worst fights they still win without much worry. So, I think it is more than a just party makeup thing.
If the monsters you throw at the party aren't strong enough, just use tougher monsters. IF the party is 6th level, don't use CR 6 monsters. Use CR 7 instead, maybe CR 8 if the characters are really strong.I can try that. I was worried it might overcorrect, but it might work out. I suppose it's OK to use CR7 and track XP as thought it were CR6, for pacing reasons?
Or put them on a slower scale. Either way works -- you are correcting imbalance so work around it some and then decide what works for you.
Tell your players what is going on too -- they might feel the same way and will be more open to trying things out if they understand why it is happening.
Having been GMing an extremely powerful (40-pt buy Gestalt) party for the better part of a year now, here's how I have learned to handle things...
Basically, I treat all the characters as being 1 level more powerful while at the same time treating all creatures a 1 CR weaker. I then, use an XP-bucket encounter calculator I made (link is in my profile) to rebuild any encounters until the difficulty is once again the same as it was originally.
Between using the encounter calculator and now the new Combat Manager app Kyle Olsen released on these forums, adjusting encounters takes very little prep work. The key for you will be figuring out what CR adjustment 'clicks' for this party. I rather doubt it would be much more than a difference of 1 CR though.
Having been GMing an extremely powerful (40-pt buy Gestalt) party for the better part of a year now, here's how I have learned to handle things...
Basically, I treat all the characters as being 1 level more powerful while at the same time treating all creatures a 1 CR weaker. I then, use an XP-bucket encounter calculator I made (link is in my profile) to rebuild any encounters until the difficulty is once again the same as it was originally.
** spoiler omitted **
Between using the encounter calculator and now the new Combat Manager app Kyle Olsen released on these forums, adjusting encounters takes very little prep work. The key for you will be figuring out what CR adjustment 'clicks' for this party. I rather doubt it would be much more than a difference of 1 CR though.
Instead of upping the individual monsters, also throw in more monsters.
Whenever you would send in a BBEG, give him a few waves of mooks to help him get concealment and avoid getting flanked/alphastruck by charging mounts and stuff.
Use terrain baffles, having a few boulders with just a 5ft gap between them is also awesome to limit charge lines.
My group of semi-optimized characters dealt more than 150 points of damage in a single round @ level 5 versus a dragon with AC 21.
It had turned invisible and then struck our entire party with its breathweapon, nearly killing us all in one strike. But in doing so, it was in melee range of me, our rogue flanked, our cavalier charged and our wizard nuked and our Cleric AE healed.
Never ever use a BBEG in such a manner.
Having been GMing an extremely powerful (40-pt buy Gestalt) party for the better part of a year now
o.0 You are either a Saint, a Savant, or some combination of both. In any event I tip my hat to you for keeping that under control.
@gamemonger
I'm running a party of 5 with around a 28 point equivalent point buy in kingmaker. Some other posters have some good advice that have worked out for me. The party i GM for is heavy in melee power, even the spellcasters can buff and wreak physical havoc.
The main key thing to remember is monster stat blocks are built around average scores. meaning they only have 15 point buy stats before racial mods.
I ONLY use advanced monsters and NPC's. if there not going to have equal stats to the party all there strengths and powers are sub-par and the CR system falls apart. finding the sweet spots to were a challenging encounter is a challenge and not harder and an avg encounter is still avg really will take time. I would advice to start with +1 to the parties APL and start off on easily to AVG encounters first to make sure it's not to hard for them. If it's not to hard then work up to challenging then hard encounter and see if that pans out right. IF it's still not working out add another +1 APL and start over again at an easy to avg encounter.
Advanced monsters is the best place to start. Advancing a monster in general will give them +2 to hit, damage, AC and just about everything. also i recommend converting to the slower path, if you need the PC's to gain levels at a curtain pace and there falling behind you can easily just give them higher quest rewards to get them to where they need to be. Taking the slower path will give you more time to experiment with CR hardness as well to make sure they are what they should be as mentioned above. CR also assumes a party of 4-5 so if you have more players than that increase there APL by 1 and another 1 for higher stats.
I found that using extra mooks doesn't really work out right and only adds in more combat time and not hardness. I would not rely on that. The party i GM for instance, when they were level 1, would eat through 15 goblins with AVG stats without breaking a sweat and it was an easy encounter although the math said otherwise. Now, with that said i've found that extra mooks do work out well if you stick with advanced monsters only- INCLUDING all peons!
now if you need to increase the CR of a specific monster more than advancing it dont't forget about other templates. My party recently fought what was suppose to be a giant turtle. If i would have kept it how it was it would have been dead in 2 rounds, would not have hit anyone, and would be a battle soon forgotten. i upped it from an avg encounter to a hard encounter and used the extra CR to make it truly fearsome. I modified it to an advanced Giant turtle half-black dragon. It was one heck of a fight! The party got so comfy in there high hit rates and AC and were completely caught by surprise when at level 5 they encountered a beast with 30+ AC +14 to hit and could claw/claw bite! Half the party was hurt pretty bad, no one died, but they will sure remember that turtle forever! And this was working with there +1 APL and the CR of the encounter matched perfectly.
From all the different viewpoints and ideas in this thread, you can see the solution is not easy and one-size-fits-all. There are plenty of difficulty knobs to turn with varying degrees of effectiveness.
Adding more monsters doesn't always make a fight more challenging -- it may just make the fight longer.
Increasing the CR of the encounter doesn't always increase the difficulty of a fight linearly. Sometimes going up 1 CR may turn an easy fight very difficult. Sometimes adding 1 CR doesn't make the fight more difficult at all.
Depending on the monster and party makeup, adding a +2 to everything can make a monster more difficult -- sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you need to add +4 to everything. Sometimes you just need to double the monster's hit points to give it a chance.
The point is that using the high point buys makes the entire CR system kind of wacky. You can tweak it to make it work, but it's easy to make fights too boring or too difficult. It's just better to use 15 point buy. . . but no one likes the low stats ):
I'd just add one comment: Are the players bored or happy with the level of difficulty?
I can't speak for everyone, but personally I find it frustrating when intelligent tactics are "rewarded" by making the opponents more and more deadly. I had one DM who was very good except that he wasn't happy unless half of the party was dead or dying after every single fight; that's not my preference, thanks.
Battlefield variation is the best way to keep it exciting I think.
Make it so the characters have to think about where and how they choose to move about the field.
Do not allow it to be charge in round one and then just full attack every round thereafter. - This is boring for the players too.
Thanks all for the ideas. A lot of good stuff to think through. I may try using ad-hoc advanced template in the next couple encounters, and adjust from there.
I'd just add one comment: Are the players bored or happy with the level of difficulty?
I can't speak for everyone, but personally I find it frustrating when intelligent tactics are "rewarded" by making the opponents more and more deadly. I had one DM who was very good except that he wasn't happy unless half of the party was dead or dying after every single fight; that's not my preference, thanks.
It's become apparent that combat is too easy. I want it at a level where their intelligent tactics reward them, but if they really mess up, they're threatened. Right now, everything is easy regardless of tactics, tactics just make it verge on ridiculous. I think more challenge will actually increase the reward of good tactics.
The point is that using the high point buys makes the entire CR system kind of wacky. You can tweak it to make it work, but it's easy to make fights too boring or too difficult. It's just better to use 15 point buy. . . but no one likes the low stats ):
Yeah, I didn't intend for a high point buy, 4d6/drop-lowest is supposed to average out to a 20 or 21 point buy, but I wanted some randomization. Perhaps next time I'll have them roll 4 stats and "buy" the last two to get as close to 20 as possible.
The point is that using the high point buys makes the entire CR system kind of wacky. You can tweak it to make it work, but it's easy to make fights too boring or too difficult. It's just better to use 15 point buy. . . but no one likes the low stats ):Yeah, I didn't intend for a high point buy, 4d6/drop-lowest is supposed to average out to a 20 or 21 point buy, but I wanted some randomization. Perhaps next time I'll have them roll 4 stats and "buy" the last two to get as close to 20 as possible.
Yeah I did a 4d6/drop one game lately. Half the characters were 11-12 point buy. Half the characters were 30+ point buy. Go figure |:
Yeah I did a 4d6/drop one game lately. Half the characters were 11-12 point buy. Half the characters were 30+ point buy. Go figure |:
random rolls are random? Who Knew?