The Great Goblin Equalizer Feat
With this single feat, 1st level goblins become the terror of the world.
Step 1 : Find a nice roadway with adventurers, merchants, etc on it.
Step 2 : Dig, at night, 8 or 9 pit traps, each 10 feet deep. Suggest the Tribe Shaman do this with spells.
Step 3 : Wait for rich looking travelers.
Step 4 : Have 1 goblin for each target step out and use Antagonize when they ride past. Have each goblin stand on the opposite side of concealed pit from the target.
Step 5 : Giggle as the stupid idiots on the road plunge into your pit.
Step 6 : Throw stones down on idiots.
Step 7 : Loot corpses.
Step 8 : Repeat until pits are too full to use.
Step 9 : Fill in pits and dig new ones a mile down the road.
Step 10 : Continue until you're tired of slaughtering travelers.
I yearn for the days of late last week when Cartigan was putting forth cohesive points that actually warranted discussion. Oh, the days of yore!
You can cast "Troll Shape" all you want, it fails to make your argument that "Insults can't make people do stuff" make any sense. No, insults can't make people do stuff - otherwise it would be an inherent part of the skill Intimidate. Just like Diplomacy can't make a caster take a 10% spell failure chance if he doesn't attack you with a spell. A feat explicitly grants a character the ability to do something they can't normally do, ie extend the capabilities of a skill. Did I ever in this argument say the feat doesn't need to be fixed? No. I said your argument is both nonsense and inapplicable. And it is.
The Great Goblin Equalizer Feat
With this single feat, 1st level goblins become the terror of the world.
Step 1 : Find a nice roadway with adventurers, merchants, etc on it.
Step 2 : Dig, at night, 8 or 9 pit traps, each 10 feet deep. Suggest the Tribe Shaman do this with spells.
Step 3 : Wait for rich looking travelers.
Step 4 : Have 1 goblin for each target step out and use Antagonize when they ride past. Have each goblin stand on the opposite side of concealed pit from the target.
Step 5 : Giggle as the stupid idiots on the road plunge into your pit.
Step 6 : Throw stones down on idiots.
Step 7 : Loot corpses.
Step 8 : Repeat until pits are too full to use.
Step 9 : Fill in pits and dig new ones a mile down the road.
Step 10 : Continue until you're tired of slaughtering travelers.
Step 1: Dig pit in middle of main road and conceal it.
Step 2: Loot corpses of travelers who fall in.Step 3: Repeat.
At no point did I use any feat here.
Step 1: Dig pit in middle of main road and conceal it.
Step 2: Loot corpses of travelers who fall in.
Step 3: Repeat.At no point did I use any feat here.
My version let's me choose who I target, so I can ignore those soldiers on their big scary horses. It also let's me check the road before doing it, to make sure there are no other witnesses up and down the road that will notice what I'm doing. And your version only get's the first rider, maybe first two. My version get's everyone in the group at the same time.
Step 10 : Continue until you're tired of slaughtering travelers....goblins get tired of this?
Well, eventually they are filthy rich and want to go make the next generation of Goblin Highwaymen.
My version let's me choose who I target, so I can ignore those soldiers on their big scary horses.
Step 1: Dig pit in middle of main road and conceal it.
Step 2: Loot corpses of travelers who fall in.
Step 3: Repeat.At no point did I use any feat here.
Who cares, they are corpses in a pit?
It also let's me check the road before doing it, to make sure there are no other witnesses up and down the road that will notice what I'm doing.
You're a goblin asshattery party, why do you care?
And your version only get's the first rider, maybe first two. My version get's everyone in the group at the same time.
False. You only get the first rider in a group. The rest see an obvious danger and go around it or the feat fails. Try again.
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You can cast "Troll Shape" all you want, it fails to make your argument that "Insults can't make people do stuff" make any sense. No, insults can't make people do stuff - otherwise it would be an inherent part of the skill Intimidate. Just like Diplomacy can't make a caster take a 10% spell failure chance if he doesn't attack you with a spell. A feat explicitly grants a character the ability to do something they can't normally do, ie extend the capabilities of a skill. Did I ever in this argument say the feat doesn't need to be fixed? No. I said your argument is both nonsense and inapplicable. And it is.I yearn for the days of late last week when Cartigan was putting forth cohesive points that actually warranted discussion. Oh, the days of yore!
My comment was meant to indicate that I missed arguing with you. The thread has recently become "I HATE CASTERZ! THIS FEAT R0XX0RZZZ", etc., which is a marked degredation from it's previous state. It wasn't meant to imply that your arguments have recently become less coherent - they haven't, although they are increasingly very much centered around trying to make me sound stupid or feel bad for my line of reasoning, neither of which is going to work, I'm afraid.
So, let's try to move the discussion forward. I (and others) posit that Antagonize (at-will mind/battlefield control, no save, manageable DC even with a +10 errata update) should not be playing in the same league with Toughness (20 hp over 20 levels) or Improved Initiative (a one-time +4 bonus to Initiative). The name of the League, BTW, is the Feats With No Prerequisites Club.
To flesh the theory out a bit, anybody can fling insults (this thread being an example, come to think of it). Your position is that the investiture of a feat elevates those insults to superhuman levels of mundane power, capable of causing the most intelligent people in the world to lose their minds and come over to club you with a stick. My counter-argument is that there is no historical precedent for an entry-level feat to confer this level of power. The measure of power conferred by an entry-level feat would give you, maybe, +4 on normal functions of Intimidate. For example.
Now, I sort of know how this will play out. You'll say "I reject that just because something hasn't happened before, it can't happen". Let me presuppose that argument from you, and pre-reply that if you use it, you're freely admitting that Paizo has created the most powerful entry-level feat ever.
Your thoughts?
Yes, the investiture of a feat would elevate the capability of any skill check. However, at no point have I argued this feat is fine as is except in contradiction to patently ridiculous arguments about absurd intimidation focused characters making demon lords attack them.
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I'm getting interested in how this plays out in PFS, but again, I doubt we have very long with it like this anyway.
I had considered getting involved with Society play at PaizoCon, but with this around and in-play, there's no way I do that. We can safely assume that the feat is nowhere in the bad guy's statblocks yet, but I also don't want to play a caster on a team that no longer really needs me.
Fortunately, I have lotto games, which I will enjoy, and plenty of seminars.
I'm getting interested in how this plays out in PFS, but again, I doubt we have very long with it like this anyway.I had considered getting involved with Society play at PaizoCon, but with this around and in-play, there's no way I do that. We can safely assume that the feat is nowhere in the bad guy's statblocks yet, but I also don't want to play a caster on a team that no longer really needs me.
Fortunately, I have lotto games, which I will enjoy, and plenty of seminars.
To be fair, the likelyhood of any published scenarios that will be in play at PaizoCon actually incorporating this feat is about the same as actually seeing a basilisk (that is not a miniature) at PaizoCon.
Characters have those pesky chronicles sheets. If there are a spate of them cropping up for recently-leveled up characters ... then they'll know something is up.
I'm getting interested in how this plays out in PFS, but again, I doubt we have very long with it like this anyway.I had considered getting involved with Society play at PaizoCon, but with this around and in-play, there's no way I do that.+1
For a long while, I had been looking for a PFS group to join on weekends. Now, I know I can stop looking, because I don't want to play in an environment where there is even a remote possibly that I encounter this feat.
Wow. Just wow.
"Good god, there is a baby in this bathwater! It must be thrown out immediately!"
Anyone else feel antagonized that Paizo hasn't said anything about this feat?
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I feel like I've (at times) been unnecessarily harsh on the designer (whoever he was) of this Feat. If he's reading or has read this thread, I hope he will appreciate that I meant no offense. It's really nothing more than an extremely undesireable element to add to the game, in my opinion.
Despite Carty and my exchanges - and how I got Fox News'ed in those exchanges - I really do want fighters/melee to get better. I just don't like this particular vehicle for it.
People aren't playing PFS over this? That's kind of silly. I feel like that is just looking for an excuse to not play in PFS. The problem with this feat is that it can be abused- not that it is going to be abused in every single game. And if you went to a con and played a bunch of games, you may run into this once, if at all. And if you see someone cheesing with this feat, simply resolve not to play with them again- not give up society play in general.
Also, while this feat is certainly broken and in need of fixing, it in no way completely invalidates spellcasters. Saying so is just silly.
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The thing is, I'm just starting on organized play, so I'm building a first level character. Some other guy is out there building a first level character, too, and he's drooling all over his keyboard for obvious reasons. I'm more than a little leery of assuming that a lot of players won't be selecting this, and if one does and he/she ends up in my group, I'm going to be very non-plussed at my initial experience with organized play being "easy-mode-AOO-whoever-is-wading-helplessly-into-melee". We have some testimonials above from Society players that that's how it works, and I have no reason to disbelieve those accounts, considering that they support all my concerns very nicely.
This isn't going to be changed before P-con, I'm reasonably sure. Things just don't move that quickly. This thread has, like, a bajillion posts in it, and not one developer. The developer reaction to criticism of Vow of Poverty was swift. The developer reaction to this has been non-existent (on the front-end, at least). I kind of want to ask James about it in his "Ask James" thread, but honestly I don't even want to put him in that position - he's not on the rules side, and I feel awkward asking him to comment on someone else's work.
In short, I'd rather wait on Organized Play and have a positive experience with it than dive in now and risking a disappointing experience. If it comes to it, I'd rather have no experience than a negative one, but that's probably just me.
And I don't think it's silly to feel that this thing marginalizes casters, particularly at the levels where organized play takes place. The most effective caster will probably be either a witch or a conjurer, with witches just debuffing the poor schlep that's wading into AOO city, and conjurers cutting off their escape with summoned creatures (Conjurers were already really strong, obviously). If I don't want to play one of those two types of casters, yeah, I feel a little less useful. What need do we have for Enchantment, for example? It's a fighter ability now. Heck, as a low-level Enchanter, the best thing I can do is make somebody run away or stand still. The party fighter can now unfailingly draw the target into a death trap from level 1.
For all the whining about caster supremacy, one cool thing about organized play is that there are some serious limits on casters. The disparity is not that great a) at the levels organized play takes place in and b) with the restrictions that organized play enforces. Now, though, if this is legal for Society play and I play in Society play, I'm simply doing myself a disservice by not rolling a human fighter and taking Power Attack and Antagonize at first level. I do massive damage and I have Battlefield control. How am I not the auto-MVP?
But I just won't do that. I'd honestly rather sit on the sidelines. Besides, I have some really great lottery games, and there are a lot of really interesting seminars, and people to talk to.
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Yeah, I'm not too concerned about the consequences of someone throwing this on their 1st-level PFS character. Frankly, it will probably be a poor tactic in most low-level scenarios, and even deadly in some. And the encounters where it will work well are unlikely to be that difficult to start with.
I would worry more about a mid-high level character who adds it as a new feat when they level. I suspect that will be more disruptive, tho I am withholding judgement until I see it in play.
-- In other words, from someone who has seen a lot of PFS play, don't let one feat stop you from trying it out if you're interested.
Wow.
Since I've basically written off Ultimate Magic as bloat, I've largely ignored discussions of its content. But even when the DC thing is sorted out, this feat is just bad.
this feat is just bad.
Bad like Michael Jackson's Bad?
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this feat is just bad.Bad like Michael Jackson's Bad?
An adventuring party (level 10) ventures into the sanctum of a powerful wizard (lvl 16, 14 wis). Collecting several of his (low level) minions to the main hall, the Wizard confronts the party, and just as he is about to rain down death and destruction on the party, the barbarian throws an insult his way. "I bet you're too chicken to come fight us like a man." Luckily, the barbarian rolled a 2 on the die, narrowly beating the DC to provoke the wizard by a mere 12 points. Rather than inflicting mass hold person on the party as he had originally planned, which would have allowed his minions to deliver coups de grace that might end some of the party's lives swiftly, he pulls out his quarterstaff and sets his sights on the hulking brute. "Nobody," he says, "nobody calls me chicken!" He makes a flying charge against the barbarian, and strikes a solid blow dealing 3 damage, which gets reduced to 1 thanks to the barbarian's thick skin. Snapping out of his madness, he realizes how poorly he has reacted. Within the next six seconds, the wizard who is now in direct melee combat with an adventuring party six levels lower than him learns several new definitions of the word "pain," regret overtaking him as swiftly as the hemorrhaging wounds.
The party then breaks out in a well-choreographed song and dance routine, with the barbarian repeatedly proclaiming his high level of badassery, and the minions of the former wizard join in as their first show of loyalty to their new masters.
this feat is just bad.Bad like Michael Jackson's Bad?An adventuring party (level 10) ventures into the sanctum of a powerful wizard (lvl 16, 14 wis). Collecting several of his (low level) minions to the main hall, the Wizard confronts the party, and just as he is about to rain down death and destruction on the party, the barbarian throws an insult his way. "I bet you're too chicken to come fight us like a man." Luckily, the barbarian rolled a 2 on the die, narrowly beating the DC to provoke the wizard by a mere 12 points. Rather than inflicting mass hold person on the party as he had originally planned, which would have allowed his minions to deliver coups de grace that might end some of the party's lives swiftly, he pulls out his quarterstaff and sets his sights on the hulking brute. "Nobody," he says, "nobody calls me chicken!" He makes a flying charge against the barbarian, and strikes a solid blow dealing 3 damage, which gets reduced to 1 thanks to the barbarian's thick skin. Snapping out of his madness, he realizes how poorly he has reacted. Within the next six seconds, the wizard who is now in direct melee combat with an adventuring party six levels lower than him learns several new definitions of the word "pain," regret overtaking him as swiftly as the hemorrhaging wounds.
The party then breaks out in a well-choreographed song and dance routine, with the barbarian repeatedly proclaiming his high level of badassery, and the minions of the former wizard join in as their first show of loyalty to their new masters.
Great example.
Yeah. Is THAT bad, as written.
An adventuring party (level 10) ventures into the sanctum of a powerful wizard (lvl 16, 14 wis). Collecting several of his (low level) minions to the main hall, the Wizard confronts the party, and just as he is about to rain down death and destruction on the party, the barbarian throws an insult his way. "I bet you're too chicken to come fight us like a man." Luckily, the barbarian rolled a 2 on the die, narrowly beating the DC to provoke the wizard by a mere 12 points. Rather than inflicting mass hold person on the party as he had originally planned, which would have allowed his minions to deliver coups de grace that might end some of the party's lives swiftly, he pulls out his quarterstaff and sets his sights on the hulking brute. "Nobody," he says, "nobody calls me chicken!" He makes a flying charge against the barbarian, and strikes a solid blow dealing 3 damage, which gets reduced to 1 thanks to the barbarian's thick skin. Snapping out of his madness, he realizes how poorly he has reacted. Within the next six seconds, the wizard who is now in direct melee combat with an adventuring party six levels lower than him learns several new definitions of the word "pain," regret overtaking him as swiftly as the hemorrhaging wounds.
The party then breaks out in a well-choreographed song and dance routine, with the barbarian repeatedly proclaiming his high level of badassery, and the minions of the former wizard join in as their first show of loyalty to their new masters.
Before someone starts bleating 'Fighters can't have nice things!':
An adventuring party (level 10) ventures into the fortress of a powerful warlord (lvl 16, 14 wis). Collecting several of his (low level) minions to the main hall, the warlord confronts the party, and just as he is about to engage in a tactical and brutal slaughter of the party with strength of arms and martial skill, the wizard throws an insult his way. "I bet you are too chicken to come fight us like a man." Luckily, the wizard rolled a 2 on the die, narrowly beating the DC to provoke the warlord by a mere 12 points. Rather than coordinating with his minions to flank and cleave through the party effortlessly, he pulls out his greatsword and sets his sights on the feeble mage. "Nobody," he says, "nobody calls me chicken!" He makes a thundering charge against the wizard and falls into the hungry pit with a major image over it. Snapping out of his madness, he realises how poorly he has reacted. Within the next six seconds, the warlord, who is now at the bottom of a 50 foot pit that's crushing and devouring him, in direct line of sight of an adventuring party six levels lower than him, learns several new definitions of the word "pain," regret overtaking him as swiftly as the hemorrhaging wounds.
The party then breaks out in a well-choreographed song and dance routine, with the wizard repeatedly proclaiming his high level of badassery, and the minions of the former warlord join in as their first show of loyalty to their new masters.
Rather than coordinating with his minions to flank and cleave through the party effortlessly, he pulls out his greatsword and sets his sights on the feeble mage
To be fair, if he had a clear path to the wizard, he may have done that anyway rather than letting the wizard stay in the back row lobbing spells. His real downfall is the fact that the party is using magic to trick him into charging towards his doom, which itself is a slight mystery as they probably didn't have the time in private to set up such a trap in the main hall of the guy's fortress =]
And the wizard probably could have just used a spell to disable the guy with a will save anyway.
To be fair, if he had a clear path to the wizard, he may have done that anyway rather than letting the wizard stay in the back row lobbing spells. His real downfall is the fact that the party is using magic to trick him into charging towards his doom, which itself is a slight mystery as they probably didn't have the time in private to set up such a trap in the main hall of the guy's fortress =]
And the wizard probably could have just used a spell to disable the guy with a will save anyway.
Okay, so it's not a great example but you get the idea. Besides, a 10th level wizard may not have so great a chance of landing a SoD on a 16th level bosstype.
Okay, so it's not a great example but you get the idea. Besides, a 10th level wizard may not have so great a chance of landing a SoD on a 16th level bosstype.To be fair, if he had a clear path to the wizard, he may have done that anyway rather than letting the wizard stay in the back row lobbing spells. His real downfall is the fact that the party is using magic to trick him into charging towards his doom, which itself is a slight mystery as they probably didn't have the time in private to set up such a trap in the main hall of the guy's fortress =]
And the wizard probably could have just used a spell to disable the guy with a will save anyway.
I don't know, a fighter's got a base will save of +5 at that level, probably a +1 or +2 from wisdom, and being generous a +5 from a cloak. That's +12 on his will saves.
A level 10 enchanter wizard probably has an intelligence of 26, spell focus, and greater spell focus, so his DC for Dominate Person is going to be 25. If he waits for the fighter to be within 30ft, he can use his aura (from the enchantment school) to reduce the fighter's saves by 2, essentially increasing the effective DC to 27. That's a 30% chance of success for the fighter, so 70% of the time he's now the Wizard's slave for the next 10 days (give him a good coup de grace while he sleeps if you want to kill him eventually).
Alternately, he could just use Hold Person with a lesser rod of persistent spell, which will require the fighter to make both of two saves which are effectively DC 25, giving him a 16% chance each round to successfully not be paralyzed, using a level 3 spell slot. 70% of the time, he won't have made the save in the first two rounds. The party's melee muscle can just get in his face and hit him with a coup de grace.
Alternately, for a conjurer, if the hungry pit's reflex save is something the fighter would fail, the wizard could just cast it under the guy's feet!
[edit: though your way, he's not going to get a save to avoid it]
this feat is just bad.Bad like Michael Jackson's Bad?An adventuring party (level 10) ventures into the sanctum of a powerful wizard (lvl 16, 14 wis). Collecting several of his (low level) minions to the main hall, the Wizard confronts the party, and just as he is about to rain down death and destruction on the party, the barbarian throws an insult his way. "I bet you're too chicken to come fight us like a man." Luckily, the barbarian rolled a 2 on the die, narrowly beating the DC to provoke the wizard by a mere 12 points. Rather than inflicting mass hold person on the party as he had originally planned, which would have allowed his minions to deliver coups de grace that might end some of the party's lives swiftly, he pulls out his quarterstaff and sets his sights on the hulking brute. "Nobody," he says, "nobody calls me chicken!" He makes a flying charge against the barbarian, and strikes a solid blow dealing 3 damage, which gets reduced to 1 thanks to the barbarian's thick skin. Snapping out of his madness, he realizes how poorly he has reacted. Within the next six seconds, the wizard who is now in direct melee combat with an adventuring party six levels lower than him learns several new definitions of the word "pain," regret overtaking him as swiftly as the hemorrhaging wounds.
The party then breaks out in a well-choreographed song and dance routine, with the barbarian repeatedly proclaiming his high level of badassery, and the minions of the former wizard join in as their first show of loyalty to their new masters.
Great example.
Yeah. Is THAT bad, as written.
Considering that the 16th level Wizard was a total moron for not having mind blank cast every day for breakfast, he got what he deserved.
Considering that the 16th level Wizard was a total moron for not having mind blank cast every day for breakfast, he got what he deserved.
How does Mind Blank help at all?
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible). This spell also grants a +8 resistance bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting spells and effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about the target. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
Considering that the 16th level Wizard was a total moron for not having mind blank cast every day for breakfast, he got what he deserved.How does Mind Blank help at all?
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible). This spell also grants a +8 resistance bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting spells and effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about the target. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
The +8 bonus against mind-affecting effects. RAW it doesn't help - common sense says that it does.
At 16th level though as a BBEG, what are the odds that the Wizard in question is still mortal and (as a presumably evil BBEG) hasn't become a lich (thereby ignoring the Antagonize)?
The +8 bonus against mind-affecting effects. RAW it doesn't help - common sense says that it does.
At 16th level though as a BBEG, what are the odds that the Wizard in question is still mortal and (as a presumably evil BBEG) hasn't become a lich (thereby ignoring the Antagonize)?
A barbarian rolling a nat 2 beat the DC by 12 (and I wasn't even counting him as a half-orc at that point). A +8 on the DC to antaganize is not going to help, even if you have a GM who rules that bonuses to saves vs. mind-effecting make the DC harder. It's still mind-numbingly easy to beat anyone's DC if you're good at intimidation.
At level 10, a Half-Orc barbarian with intimidating prowess, 30 STR while raging, 7 CHA, and a 200g cracked ioun stone (forget the color/shape) is going to have a +24 to intimidate. Allowing mind blank to provide its +8 even though it's not RAW, a level 16 wizard with 14 wis is going to have a DC of 26, meaning the barbarian needs to roll a 2 to succeed. If the barbarian has skill focus he'll beat the DC by 5 by rolling a 1.
To answer your other questions, the likelihood of him being immortal or a lich are both low from an encounter design standpoint, given that the party is level 10 when they face this challenge [though even without such modifications, it's already supposed to be an incredibly difficult challenge judging by the CR].
[This post has been gratuitously edited]
Okay, so it's not a great example but you get the idea. Besides, a 10th level wizard may not have so great a chance of landing a SoD on a 16th level bosstype.To be fair, if he had a clear path to the wizard, he may have done that anyway rather than letting the wizard stay in the back row lobbing spells. His real downfall is the fact that the party is using magic to trick him into charging towards his doom, which itself is a slight mystery as they probably didn't have the time in private to set up such a trap in the main hall of the guy's fortress =]
And the wizard probably could have just used a spell to disable the guy with a will save anyway.
It's been my experience that most GMs will sooner fudge a die roll in the boss' favor than to let him die anticlimactically in round 1 to a SoD effect.
It's a sad truth.
Okay, so it's not a great example but you get the idea. Besides, a 10th level wizard may not have so great a chance of landing a SoD on a 16th level bosstype.To be fair, if he had a clear path to the wizard, he may have done that anyway rather than letting the wizard stay in the back row lobbing spells. His real downfall is the fact that the party is using magic to trick him into charging towards his doom, which itself is a slight mystery as they probably didn't have the time in private to set up such a trap in the main hall of the guy's fortress =]
And the wizard probably could have just used a spell to disable the guy with a will save anyway.
It's been my experience that most GMs will sooner fudge a die roll in the boss' favor than to let him die anticlimactically in round 1 to a SoD effect.
It's a sad truth.
I wonder why. ^_^
The +8 bonus against mind-affecting effects. RAW it doesn't help - common sense says that it does.
At 16th level though as a BBEG, what are the odds that the Wizard in question is still mortal and (as a presumably evil BBEG) hasn't become a lich (thereby ignoring the Antagonize)?
A barbarian rolling a nat 2 beat the DC by 12 (and I wasn't even counting him as a half-orc at that point). A +8 on the DC to antaganize is not going to help, even if you have a GM who rules that bonuses to saves vs. mind-effecting make the DC harder. It's still mind-numbingly easy to beat anyone's DC if you're good at intimidation.
At level 10, a Half-Orc barbarian with intimidating prowess, 30 STR while raging, 7 CHA, and a 200g cracked ioun stone (forget the color/shape) is going to have a +24 to intimidate. Allowing mind blank to provide its +8 even though it's not RAW, a level 16 wizard with 14 wis is going to have a DC of 26, meaning the barbarian needs to roll a 2 to succeed. If the barbarian has skill focus he'll beat the DC by 5 by rolling a 1.
To answer your other questions, the likelihood of him being immortal or a lich are both low from an encounter design standpoint, given that the party is level 10 when they face this challenge [though even without such modifications, it's already supposed to be an incredibly difficult challenge judging by the CR].
[This post has been gratuitously edited]
Well, a level 16 wizard (15 point buy, core race) is technically a CR 15, still ludicrously above the nominal guideline of CR+3 for the "cap".
In summary, I agree that "as written" Antagonize is the first feat I've seen that, within its limitations, is ridiculously nasty for what it does combined with its requirements.
In summary, I agree that "as written" Antagonize is the first feat I've seen that, within its limitations, is ridiculously nasty for what it does combined with its requirements.
The +8 bonus against mind-affecting effects. RAW it doesn't help - common sense says that it does.
Houserules are fine. In the relevant session of the forum ^_^
I once fudged rolls now I changed my gamestyle and never fudge. I adjust the plot on the results, not the opposite.
In summary, I agree that "as written" Antagonize is the first feat I've seen that, within its limitations, is ridiculously nasty for what it does combined with its requirements.
Add a 10 + to the DC (making it as "difficult" as demoralizing, rather than massively easier), and make it so that rather than being forced to attack you in melee combat specifically, they simply have to attack you in some manner, perhaps for the next 2 or 3 rounds or until you're unconscious. It'd still be extremely useful for a tank to use in many situations. An archer is going to unload his arrows on you, rather than nonsensically throwing down his bow and using bare fists. But at least he's not going to attack the really squishy guys. Etc.
Add a 10 + to the DC (making it as "difficult" as demoralizing, rather than massively easier), and make it so that rather than being forced to attack you in melee combat specifically, they simply have to attack you in some manner, perhaps for the next 2 or 3 rounds or until you're unconscious. It'd still be extremely useful for a tank to use in many situations. An archer is going to unload his arrows on you, rather than nonsensically throwing down his bow and using bare fists. But at least he's not going to attack the really squishy guys. Etc.In summary, I agree that "as written" Antagonize is the first feat I've seen that, within its limitations, is ridiculously nasty for what it does combined with its requirements.
I would be fine with something like this as I am planning on taking the feat TO draw fire and attacks away from my party members primarily, however my GM refuses to let me touch it until an official errata, or word from the developers, comes about.
Thankfully it's for a character being built for the Jade Regent AP.
To save me reading 10 pages of posts...
Have any of the Paizo folk commented on this thread??
This just in:
Antagonize Feat : Caster PC
1:0
Tears and "you can't do that to a Wizard!" were involved. Making grown men cry makes my heart tingle...
Just wait sorcerers learn to use it in combo with pit spells and who knows what else.
Funny how people think this is a melee only feat.
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Just wait sorcerers learn to use it in combo with pit spells and who knows what else.
Funny how people think this is a melee only feat.
It is primarily a melee feat. Sure, there might arise conditions under which sorcerers might use it. Those will not be the feat's most common or most gamebreaking applications, though.
1 out of 10 sorcerers might take this.
10 out of 10 fighters should take it as early as possible.