Rules and Mechanics for Large / Semi-Large Warfare

[Matriq]

Hey guys, I'm looking to have a massive battle in an upcoming session, kind of 300esque, where one large army assaults a town, and a small group of adventurer's try and hold them off as long as they can. I've been looking around to see if I can find any good resources for how to conduct a large scale battle, I can't see myself have 120+ initiatives in a round. Does anyone have any suggestions to how they handled it, or have found any resources that were particularly effective? Thanks for the help!

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Matriq wrote:

Hey guys, I'm looking to have a massive battle in an upcoming session, kind of 300esque, where one large army assaults a town, and a small group of adventurer's try and hold them off as long as they can. I've been looking around to see if I can find any good resources for how to conduct a large scale battle,

If you have access to it, the Star Wars Saga Edition book The Clone Wars Campaign Guide has rules for creating squads and units (which work something like vehicles). The core rulebook has rules for fighter wings, which are expanded upon in Starships of the Galaxy, as well.

I cribbed heavily from those sources when I designed a similar combat scenario for my last campaign, and I made about a dozen to two dozen units for each side, each of which consisted of 3-to-5 individuals.

Unfortunately, the players decided to try an Ender's Game solution (so only the enemy had squads apart from two squads - a cavalry squad and a half-orc irregular squad - the players decided to bring with them), so I never got to run the all-out battle.

Fortunately for the players, it worked. :D

If you're interested, I'll see if I can find you some of my notes on how the specifics worked.

[Mage Evolving]

This might be helpful.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/imPlanningOnStartingAWar&page=1#4

[Malacki]

If I remember correctly the 5th book in Council of Thieves had a larger combat that it awarded points for the party defeating certain groups. It also awarded points for having allies assist you. I think it awarded points for achieving some tactical advantages as well.

There was a total point number you had to achieve to win the battles and have the remaining enemies flee. You could work out a system like that.

[Dorje Sylas]

There are many ways and several different references. The problem with large scale battles is the impact of "Heroes" is very different then a normal encounter. Its often hard to simulate

3rd party pathfinder

http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/p/pathfinderRPG/adamantEntert ainment/v5748btpy8emt

A good 3e book

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_Havoc

WotC 3.5 with a different take on heroes in battle, good

http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Fantasy-Roleplaying-Supplement/dp/07 8693686X

Anime/BESM d20 optional rules PDF, quick and dirty

http://goofansite.game-host.org/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid= 66&func=select&id=87

[Rezdave]

Mage Evolving wrote:

This might be helpful.

Sorry, Mage, but that seems to be a dead link.

Matriq wrote:

I'm looking to have a massive battle in an upcoming session ... [and am] looking around to see if I can find any good resources for how to conduct a large scale battle

I've contributed to a bunch of threads on this topic. Archive search the following (linkified):

rezdave battle war

You should find some good threads.

Basically ...

• Get an "Asst. DM" for the session to help you roll and move units;

• The PCs are in charge of only a small section of a larger battlefield;

• It's helpful if they are involved in a "special operation" that is staged in more typical adventuring-size combats than a large-scale battle which is occurring primarily "off-stage";

• Most likely the outcome of the battle is pre-determined, so the PCs are not affecting the entire battle, but rather just their little corner of it;

• If you want the PCs to "tip the scales" then you need to carefully balance out both forces in the fight;

• Properly balancing the opposing forces is difficult at best, and impossible for most people (I use custom-designed Force-Multiplier and Force-Depletion models to balance and resolve "off-stage" mass combats);

• Have the Players do the rolling for allies, you only roll for enemies;

• Compress similar unit-types into groups and do not have anyone act individually ... if a group of 10 War1s is engaged then mechanically only 1 is attacking and 9 are using Aid Another to offer him a net +9 attack bonus (consider the group a Huge creature that can occupy the same space as its opponent, much like a Swarm);

• Get ahold of the "mob" rules from SCAP ... these are basically a way of turning intelligent creatures into Swarms.

HTH,

Rez

P.S. The largest-scale battle I ever ran was ~5-6 PCs plus a dozen allies for whom they rolled, and ~50 to 75 attacking monsters (giants and minions). I had an ADM handling the minions while I ran the bosses. A cloudkill helped thin the ranks quickly, but the ADM proved vital.

Otherwise, I've run wars with thousands of forces acting off-stage, and essentially pre-determined battles in which the PCs participated and the events around them were narrated. In the latter case, the balance was close enough that their actions would make a difference in the outcome, but because they were focused on enemy champions (or crowd control) I wasn't rolling for hordes on foot-soldiers and just narrated scene-by-scene the "tide of battle".

R.

[Krak de Chevalier]

You could also have a look at 2nd Ed Battlesystem and Battlesytem Skirmishes supplements. I bought 2nd hand copies recently to look at what fudging is required for Pathfinder stats. Basically there is a system to convert PC/monster stats into a stat block for large scale combat. PC's can remain individual stands and monsters become 10 per figure from memory. Then combat becomes like a standard table top wargame. There is a nice sense of novelty occasionally popping up to wargame scale then back to rpg scale.

[Mage Evolving]

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/archives/imPlanningOnStartingAWar

Let me know if this one is dead.

You can find the link by searching for "I'm planning on starting a war"

[Rezdave]

Mage Evolving wrote:

You can find the link by searching for "I'm planning on starting a war"

Original LINKIFIED.

Mage ... Looks like the Boards inserted a space in "R PG" and that's why it didn't work.

R.

[Azmyth]

I am a big fan of (former Paizo Intern) Hank Woon's Warpath Mass Combat and will be employing it in my King Maker campaign.

We reviewed the product and discussed it with Hank way back in Episode 004 of Chronicles Pathfinder Podcast, you might find it helpful...

[Dal Selpher]

This Thread may also offer some good ideas

[DoveArrow]

A while back, I made some tweaks to the mob template from Dungeon Master's Guide II and created a new template called a troop. I posted it on my blog, in case you're interested.

http://houserules3e.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/troop/

[Some call me Tim]

Matriq wrote:

Hey guys, I'm looking to have a massive battle in an upcoming session, kind of 300esque, where one large army assaults a town, and a small group of adventurer's try and hold them off as long as they can. I've been looking around to see if I can find any good resources for how to conduct a large scale battle, I can't see myself have 120+ initiatives in a round. Does anyone have any suggestions to how they handled it, or have found any resources that were particularly effective? Thanks for the help!

The best way to fight massive battles is to not do it.

In this case it isn't a simultaneous assault of 10,000 vs. 300. Rather it will be a small group fighting other small groups (with lots and lots of reinforcements).

When I've done things like this in the past you award points for various tasks. For example defeat 10 foot soldiers = 1 point, destroy enemy siege weapon = 2 points, defeat enemy mage = 3 points, take out enemy commander = 5 points and so on. Bonus points are awarded for doing so quickly. Points are scaled based on the CR of the encounter.

The result doesn't depend on the overall battle as much as several key victories. You fight through maybe five or ten of these tasks (battles can be multi-day affairs). The PC's side will win if the total reaches a certain number of points. After each task you give feedback if the PCs side is winning or losing based on the number points gained. This lets the PCs decide if they want to take on more dangerous tasks.

Alternatively, since this is a 300-esque fight you just map out so many ever increasingly difficult waves of enemies hit the PCs. If the PCs defeat all the waves their side wins the battle. If not, they shall die valiantly in battle.