A player in our game last night utilized the Acrobatics skill to avoid an attack of opportunity by tumbling through threatedned squares and then made the arguement that it could be done as part of a run full round action - counting the tubling squares only as two squares of movement.
There were no other circumstances that would have prevented the full round Run action, excepting this.
Can anyone weigh in with your thoughts on both the RAW and the spirit of the rules?
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Vlorn
First off, if you use Acrobatics to move through threatened squares, you move at half speed. Period. You can attempt to move at full speed by increasing the DC by 10, but that needs to be called prior to the check.
While the rules are not clear on it, I feel it is allowed to combine run with acrobatics to avoid AoOs so long as the movement is in a straight line.
Remember the DC increases by 5 if you move through an opponent's space (as opposed to just his threatened area), and it increases by 2 for every additional opponent you attempt to move past.
Let's say your player has a 30 ft. movement rate and tried to get past 3 guards (CMD 20), and a straight line takes him through the last guard's actual square.
Using the run action, he can move 4x his normal distance, using acrobatics, he moves at half speed. So the tumbling guy moves 60 ft.
There are three guards, so +4 DC. He's moving through their space as opposed to threatened area, so +5 DC. He needs to hit a DC 29 acrobatics check to succeed. However, if he fails, he provokes AoOs from all of them, doesn't move any farther than the square in front of the last guard, and loses his Dex bonus to AC to boot.
So in the Acrobatics/Run scenario - would a failed Acrobatics check and a successful AoO stop the movement? If so, can you site where this is in the Core?
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Vlorn
This player stated that it says you use Acrobatics as part of an action.
One arguement felt that it was refering to action as part of a move action.
The other arguement felt that Run is a full round action and it could be part of it.
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Vlorn
I also thought you needed a different check for each foe.
Thank you for the feedback. Does anyone know if a successful AoO stops the tumble or does the tumbling runner simply incur the AoO damage as he runs?
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Vlorn
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Thank you for the feedback. Does anyone know if a successful AoO stops the tumble or does the tumbling runner simply incur the AoO damage as he runs?
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Vlorn
From my understanding, the tumbling runner simply incurs the AoO damage and continues to the end point of the run.
Now, I have seen it argued both ways on these boards though.
From my understanding, the tumbling runner simply incurs the AoO damage and continues to the end point of the run.
Now, I have seen it argued both ways on these boards though.
They can continue to move. Otherwise, the Stand Still feat would be worthless. . . or at least very diminished. . .
SRD says
"If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone."
If you are missed, they haven't stopped you, and you keep going.
My mistake.
Others correct me if I am wrong.
Move through a threatened square: if you get hit by an AoO, you roll another acro check. If you fail you fall prone, if you make it, you take damage but keep going.
Move through an occupied square: If you fail the acrobatics check, your movement is stopped and you roll another check or fall prone. If you have another move left you can still use it.
FAQ says:
"A: (James Jacobs 3/26/10) If you fail an Acrobatics check to move through an opponent's square, you stop in the square you were leaving to make the attempt to go through that creature's square and your movement for that turn ends...If you have any more move actions left in a turn, you could try again, of course."
If they are attempting to move through an opponent's THREATENED AREA, and they fail the Acrobatics check, they suffer an AoO. They do not stop moving.
If they are attempting to move through an opponent's SQUARE, and they fail the Acrobatics check, they stop their movement and must make another Acrobatics check or fall prone.
Where can the thing about the possibility "falling prone" when using acrobatics to tumble be found in the rules (besides the opponent using his AoO for a trip CM)?
I remember some discussion about it, but I also remember some consensus that the acrobatics skill description was devided into three distinct parts (narrow or uneven surface, tumbling, jumping) and the "If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone." therefore only applied to the uses of acrobatics for difficult surfaces and not any acrobatics roll.
So the way I see it:
Moving through threatened square:
Making the check: Everything is fine, keep going
Not making the check: Take the AoO, keep going (if not tripped or "stand stilled".
Moving through opponent's square:
Making the check: Everything fine, keep going.
Not making the check: Take the AoO, stand upright in the square where you strated your try to move through (if not tripped), your move action ends, you can try again if you've got a move action left (unless you are "stand stilled").
EDIT: Some may complain that this makes tumbling an easy option to take (especially to move through a threatened square), but there's still a price to pay: slower moverment (unless you're REALLY good, an then you've earned it) and restrictions on load & armor.
I quoted the rule above:
SRD says
"If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone."
If you make your check to move through a threatened square, you keep on rolling.
If you fail your check, but they miss their AoO, you keep on rolling.
So if fail your check and take damage, you make another acrobatics check. If you succeed, you keep on rolling.
If you fail this second check, you are knocked prone.
I admit it seems unfair, since a fighter could just walk through the threatened square and take the damage with no Acrobatics check to be knocked prone, but I guess that's the price you pay for boobing and weaving through the square with Acrobatics.
You missed my point, which was that you got to see the quote in context.
Check: You can use Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling. A successful check allows you to move at half speed across such surfaces—only one check is needed per round. Use the following table to determine the base DC, which is then modified by the Acrobatics skill modifiers noted below. While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any). If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone.
In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5.
Finally, you can use the Acrobatics skill to make jumps or to soften a fall. The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical). These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start. The only Acrobatics modifiers that apply are those concerning the surface you are jumping from. If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump. If you fail by 5 or more, you fail to make the jump and fall (or land prone, in the case of a vertical jump). Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet. No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round. For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). Halve this result for a standing long jump to determine where you land.
To me it looks like the authors didn't want to use another "in this way" in the first paragraph for aesthetic reasons. Why have three clearly distinct uses with different rules and writing something that was supposed to be used for all of them in the explanation of the first one? Also note that the jumping part again explains when an acrobat falls prone.
EDIT: Of course there's some interpretation on my side going - namely the authors trying to avoid clumsy formulations and not putting rules in strange places. Considering they didn't succeed in doing so in other places (though mostly they did), this might just be one more example.
EDIT: On rereading my first post I admit that I made missing my point easy with its first sentence. Sorry.
I still don't understand how you propose to get around "If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone."
It doesn't say, "When using acrobatics to jump" Is says "While using acrobatics."
In my mind it seems like if you fail the check and they tag you with the AoO, you make another acrobatics check, and if you fail or fall prone.
We clearly disagree.
Is there any other source or eratta for this? It has not been FAQ'd.
SRD says
"If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone."
If you are missed, they haven't stopped you, and you keep going.
Oh my bad. I missed the "tumbling runner" part (instead of just runner). Yeah, you've got to roll the acrobatics check after getting hit if you're doing acrobatics. If you fall prone, you can't run. You can use a move action to move 5 ft. while prone (minus special abilities). But you use a full-round action to run -- if that action gets interrupted in the middle doing it, the action is wasted. Same thing if a charge gets interrupted by a trip.
Check …
In addition ….
Finally …
Each of those different words form 3 separate logical categories nothing from the first is added to the second, or to the third and soon. Otherwise you would not get to add your DEX to AC while doing a back flips. There is no way a person is flat-foot while doing a back flip.
@Prawn:
Please check out the discussion in this thread. It has not yet been clearly resolved via faq, but I don't really want to repeat the discussion either - people's opinions apparently differ on this.
Thanks for pointing out that thread.
Seems like some people think that the falling prone part only applies to balancing. Others think it applies to other uses of acrobatics like moving through a threatened square.
Having read those arguments, I agree, you only fall prone if you are balancing. What convinced me is that that same section also says that you lose dex to ac, which makes sense while balancing, but not while tumbling past an opponent.
P
Meh, another example of bad writing. There's no hint that the text applies to a section -- unlike the previous sentence.
While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any). If you take damage while using Acrobatics (*where are you "in this way"?*), you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone.
I can see the "lazy" argument that they simply didn't bother to add words to link the sentence to a section of text. I guess the price of combining a bunch of skills together (jump/tumble/balance) is difficulty in writing it clearly. . .
Thank you for the feedback. Does anyone know if a successful AoO stops the tumble or does the tumbling runner simply incur the AoO damage as he runs?
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Vlorn
The only way an AoO would stop your tumbling runner is if the damage killed them, they were successfully tripped on the AoO or if the atack had some sort of feat to end someones movement on a successful AoO.
AoO's in and of themselves do not stop your movement (unless the AoO kills you obviously).