This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.I know this spell removes the chance of being Off Target, but what about arriving at a Similar Area or having Mishap?
And what happens if you telelport into a tree or boulder? Are you trapped? Take damage? Die?
Then the second part of the description applies. Either you get to exactly where you're trying to go or you disappear then reappear in your original location.
If you have even the slightest correct clue about where you're going, GT will get you there, barring any protections on the target site.
That's debatable. "a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting"
Slightest correct clue does not necessarily translate to 'reliable description'
Moreover, if you are teleporting to a place to which you have a reliable description of another place, you could end up someplace where you did not intend to go, but that was a valid target given your input.
If for instance, you were fed information about 'the mayor's house' and teleported there only to find yourselves within a trap or prepared cell that still matched the description of the area.
Anyone who teleports blind... is accepting the risks that such entails.
Yes, but this thread is about greater teleport. That one is risk-free.
Anyone who teleports blind... is accepting the risks that such entails.Yes, but this thread is about greater teleport. That one is risk-free.
Agreed. Such risks do not apply to greater teleport, hence the higher level slot investiture.
Agreed. Such risks do not apply to greater teleport, hence the higher level slot investiture.Anyone who teleports blind... is accepting the risks that such entails.Yes, but this thread is about greater teleport. That one is risk-free.
Disagreed. LazarX is responding to my point, and even greater teleport carries those risks.
You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible.
This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.
By my reading either the spell is successful or you don't teleport. There is no possibility to teleport to the wrong area.
edit:I believe teleporting blind would be the same as "insufficient information" since you don't have enough information to go anywhere.
Disagreed. LazarX is responding to my point, and even greater teleport carries those risks.Agreed. Such risks do not apply to greater teleport, hence the higher level slot investiture.Anyone who teleports blind... is accepting the risks that such entails.Yes, but this thread is about greater teleport. That one is risk-free.
Read the rules. Greater teleport is totally risk-free.
LazarX might think that wrong and want everyone who uses teleportation to run a risk, but that's house-rule country.
Disagreed. LazarX is responding to my point, and even greater teleport carries those risks.Agreed. Such risks do not apply to greater teleport, hence the higher level slot investiture.Anyone who teleports blind... is accepting the risks that such entails.Yes, but this thread is about greater teleport. That one is risk-free.Read the rules. Greater teleport is totally risk-free.
LazarX might think that wrong and want everyone who uses teleportation to run a risk, but that's house-rule country.
I've read the rules. Greater teleport is risk free from arriving off of your destination. There is nothing that suggests that actual said destination is A) free of risk or B) the destination you 'thought' you were headed for.
Again, example. You think you are headed to Carny Circus, a place of magic and wonder, where clowns delight children and laughter flows freely. You're going to meet Big Strong, a kindly quest important character.
However, your reliable description of a circus tent, set up near the Blackwood Forest, with such and such landmarks and such and such features, is actually a slaver's trap. Description accurate, successful teleport. Intended destination, not so much.
I've read the rules. Greater teleport is risk free from arriving off of your destination. There is nothing that suggests that actual said destination is A) free of risk or B) the destination you 'thought' you were headed for.
For point A, you're correct. Point B, you need to reread this part:
If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location.
I've read the rules. Greater teleport is risk free from arriving off of your destination. There is nothing that suggests that actual said destination is A) free of risk or B) the destination you 'thought' you were headed for.
B: See above
A: Of course not, but that's not greater teleport's problem. The teleporting process itself is totally risk-free. If you are going to be eaten by a grue as soon as you arrive, that's not the spell's fault (it's because you teleported into a dark place without a light source).
I've read the rules. Greater teleport is risk free from arriving off of your destination. There is nothing that suggests that actual said destination is A) free of risk or B) the destination you 'thought' you were headed for.For point A, you're correct. Point B, you need to reread this part:
If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location.
Misleading to what though? As to what awaits you there? If someone says "Your Macguffin is in Greyhawk Castle" and gives you an accurate description of Greyhawk Castle, but is lying about the MacGuffin, the spell will call b.s.? If someone describes their 'quaint little village' to you but fails to mention it is overrun by ravenous undead and demons, the spell will pick up on that and keep you safely out of there? I don't think so.
You know, if you need to know the location, and you can't really recall the specifics, it seems like this would fail or put you in any random spot in the forest.
I agree, and unless you were specifically ok with 'any random spot in the forest', greater teleport would fail.
I usually require a landmark, which would require specifically acquainting yourself with a particular point of a featureless area like 'trackless jungle'
I also have to second LazarX's question....that's quite a bit of teleporting.
I see nothing wrong with that. Sure they will need 15 spells per mile that will run them about 4 (4 level 7 spells) days each mile. so they end up in the forest for 2 weeks at a minimum.
Yes you can walk that same distance in about 2 hours, but if they want to use that many spells and camp in a dark forest full of random mobs than i say let them go for it.
No, you can not teleport into an object. Teleport spells do not dematerialize and reassemble you back in another place like Star Trek teleport technology. So you literly bump from object if you attempt to do so.
This is also covered by general Conjuration rule:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
Ha, yeah, that is a lot of teleporting. The character is a cohort (Hound Archon) who has greater teleport at-will, so he can use it all day long. He is doing this is to leave a trail of continual flames (also at-will) along the path for others to find, and he wanted to teleport instead of walk to avoid slowing down the rest of the group who are riding must faster undead mounts (so they can double move/hustle endlessly without tiring). Although, now that I type this out, I realize that leaving a light every 360 ft would not have done much good since you wouldn't be able to see them that far apart anyway.
Here's an easy answer: The Hound Archon (a good outsider) uses his greater teleport to get away from the party willingly trafficking in the powers of undeath (an evil act). Alternatively, roll initiative.
I'm sure there is a valid reason for this, but that just stuck me as wrong.
I would allow a distance and direction as a valid description for a destination. "360 feet due north" precisely defines where you are going. You run a higher risk when using it this way, as you could be porting over a pool of lava. I would also allow "the other side of this door" even though you can't see it and have no idea what exactly is there. Greater Teleport is a very high level spell, I'm willing to cut it some slack, particularly when it is duplicating things dimension door was doing 3 spell levels earlier.
My opinion, YMMV, check with your GM,etc....
So it's a problem YOU set up for yourself by allowing a cohort with unlimited teleportation. That's an abject lesson in and of itself.And no you can't teleport into an object even deliberately, you'll get bounced into the nearest open space, although you will take damage.
He never said it was a problem, he asked questions regarding how to rule on it.
While the cohort may be able to cast continual flame at will, did the party provide enough ruby dust to do be able to cast it so often?
I seem to recall reading in the books (and here on the forums from the developpers) that spells and spell-like abilities that have expensive material components still need to be used / provided.
Otherwise, summoning certain creatures would allow PCs to make a fortune (say, like with the hound archon, making continual flame torches and selling them).
I seem to recall reading in the books (and here on the forums from the developpers) that spells and spell-like abilities that have expensive material components still need to be used / provided.
Otherwise, summoning certain creatures would allow PCs to make a fortune (say, like with the hound archon, making continual flame torches and selling them).
SLA's and SU's don't require components. There are already loopholes in the game to break the economy if a player wants to do so.
Misleading to what though? As to what awaits you there? If someone says "Your Macguffin is in Greyhawk Castle" and gives you an accurate description of Greyhawk Castle, but is lying about the MacGuffin, the spell will call b.s.? If someone describes their 'quaint little village' to you but fails to mention it is overrun by ravenous undead and demons, the spell will pick up on that and keep you safely out of there? I don't think so.I've read the rules. Greater teleport is risk free from arriving off of your destination. There is nothing that suggests that actual said destination is A) free of risk or B) the destination you 'thought' you were headed for.For point A, you're correct. Point B, you need to reread this part:
If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location.
Misleading as to the destination itself, not its danger level.
That means if someone describes to you the great castle 100 miles north of here with its 30' walls made of black marble, but it's actually 50 miles west of here and has 60' granite walls, your teleport fails.
If the guy gives you an accurate description for Port Peril but "forgets" to mention the Great Old One street war that's been raging there for years, the spell gets you there.
There are probably corner cases, though: If all you have is "Iour-And is a tranquil forest glade in the middle of this forest" while it's actually a perpetual war zone between insane dryads and blighted treants, the spell will probably fizzle - the information you have doesn't fit. There is no tranquil glade in that forest.
If the guy told you "It's a large forest glade in the exact centre of the forest, 30 miles west of here." You will probably get there, though.
It's obviously not an exact science.
Wise men avoid trying to find the exact definition of what the spell is supposed to discount as insufficient and misleading, in order to avoid having dice thrown at them by their fellow men. (And women, if you insist on that)
My house rule on this is simple. A Hound Archon CAN cast Continual Flame at will. But only one such flame can be in existence for any Archon at any time.SLA's and SU's don't require components. There are already loopholes in the game to break the economy if a player wants to do so.I seem to recall reading in the books (and here on the forums from the developpers) that spells and spell-like abilities that have expensive material components still need to be used / provided.
Otherwise, summoning certain creatures would allow PCs to make a fortune (say, like with the hound archon, making continual flame torches and selling them).
I like my ruling a lot better:
"Of course there is nothing in the rules saying you can't summon a hound archon to make all those torches for you to sell. However, the rules also totally lack anything saying that a star archon with 19 levels of fighter and the advanced simple template applied 19 times won't teleport next to you and start hitting you with everything he's got (which is a lot).
So why don't we just agree to play nice all around?"
Very effective, that. Especially if you "happen to accidentally drop" a page that contains what seems to the casual observer to be a PFRPG stat block titled "Slayer of Munchkins, Advanced (19x) Star Archon Fighter 19, CR 57"
Excuse me, I just had an idea for a character concept... }>
|
For point A, you're correct. Point B, you need to reread this part:
If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location.
You can have insufficient information about a place "A forest clearing", which is hopelessly vague. The spell would fail.
You can have highly detailed descriptions of locations, that are still misleading, insofar as a place matching that description doesn't exist ("A forest glade, containing a colossal red and yellow striped circus tent", when the circus has not yet arrived in the county), in which case the spell fails.
You can have perfectly accurate descriptions of places, that do exist (such as the aforementioned circus tent), yet you may have been misled about the nature of the location, or the motives of those who have invited you there (evil cannibalistic clowns), so that the place may not be beneficial. The spell would take you there.
Now here's a fourth possibility for everyone to ponder;
What to do in the case of a description of a destination that is not 'insufficient' (i.e. it is very detailed), and is not 'misleading', (in that such a place does exist), but it is not the only example of such a place?
A troupe of good clowns take their red and yellow tent round the country, delighting the public. A troupe of evil clowns commission an identical tent, and follow the other clowns' route, picking up curious punters for their cookpot.
If you focus on the appearance of just the tent, which circus do you turn up at? Do you dice for it?
What if you focus on the appearance of the tent, and the surrounding clearing (as you remember it), but don't realise the good clowns have moved on last week, and an identical tent, full of evil clowns now stands in that very clearing?
Sometimes, you can get exactly what you ask for, and still not be happy.
For point A, you're correct. Point B, you need to reread this part:
If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location.You can have insufficient information about a place "A forest clearing", which is hopelessly vague. The spell would fail.
You can have highly detailed descriptions of locations, that are still misleading, insofar as a place matching that description doesn't exist ("A forest glade, containing a colossal red and yellow striped circus tent", when the circus has not yet arrived in the county), in which case the spell fails.
You can have perfectly accurate descriptions of places, that do exist (such as the aforementioned circus tent), yet you may have been misled about the nature of the location, or the motives of those who have invited you there (evil cannibalistic clowns), so that the place may not be beneficial. The spell would take you there.
Now here's a fourth possibility for everyone to ponder;
What to do in the case of a description of a destination that is not 'insufficient' (i.e. it is very detailed), and is not 'misleading', (in that such a place does exist), but it is not the only example of such a place?
A troupe of good clowns take their red and yellow tent round the country, delighting the public. A troupe of evil clowns commission an identical tent, and follow the other clowns' route, picking up curious punters for their cookpot.
If you focus on the appearance of just the tent, which circus do you turn up at? Do you dice for it?
What if you focus on the appearance of the tent, and the surrounding clearing (as you remember it), but don't realise the good clowns have moved on last week, and an identical tent, full of evil clowns now stands in that very clearing?Sometimes, you can get exactly what you ask for, and still not be happy.
My understanding of the spell is that either you go where you want to go or the spell fails.
If you have enough information that teleport could get you to the correct spot then greater teleport should work.|
|
But the question remains;
What if the 'correct' spot (ie perfectly detailed and accurate description, that perfectly matches a place that actually exists) isn't where you really want to go?
Imagine a paranoid king creates a secret teleport chamber in his castle, with highly specific angles to the walls, detailed carvings and draperies, and gives orders that the room is to be left undisturbed, so that it provides a foolproof beacon for himself and his trusted agents to travel to.
Now imagine, one of those trusted agents rebels, or a spy enters the castle, finds the secret chamber, and records the details with perfect accuracy (maybe a summoned dao, with doubleplusgoodstonecunning memorises the exact proportions). This traitor defects, and builds an exact copy of the secret teleport chamber, in the Rebel Alliance headquarters.
When the king, or one of his trusted agents, teleports while visualising the secret chamber, where do they appear?
Do 50% of their subsequent journeys go awry?
If not, why not?
What if the king and his trusted agents are on campaign, the rebel baron (as yet, not unmasked) persuades a new maid to go in the secret room and clean up? Change the throws, take the rug to be beaten, throw a cloak over that ugly gargoyle? The king, and his agents decide to return home, to drum up reinforcements. When they port, visualising the secret room as it was (and still is, at Rebel HQ) do they automatically fall into the rebels' hands?
If not, why not?
But the question remains;
What if the 'correct' spot (ie perfectly detailed and accurate description, that perfectly matches a place that actually exists) isn't where you really want to go?
Imagine a paranoid king creates a secret teleport chamber in his castle, with highly specific angles to the walls, detailed carvings and draperies, and gives orders that the room is to be left undisturbed, so that it provides a foolproof beacon for himself and his trusted agents to travel to.
Now imagine, one of those trusted agents rebels, or a spy enters the castle, finds the secret chamber, and records the details with perfect accuracy (maybe a summoned dao, with doubleplusgoodstonecunning memorises the exact proportions). This traitor defects, and builds an exact copy of the secret teleport chamber, in the Rebel Alliance headquarters.
When the king, or one of his trusted agents, teleports while visualising the secret chamber, where do they appear?
Do 50% of their subsequent journeys go awry?
If not, why not?What if the king and his trusted agents are on campaign, the rebel baron (as yet, not unmasked) persuades a new maid to go in the secret room and clean up? Change the throws, take the rug to be beaten, throw a cloak over that ugly gargoyle? The king, and his agents decide to return home, to drum up reinforcements. When they port, visualising the secret room as it was (and still is, at Rebel HQ) do they automatically fall into the rebels' hands?
If not, why not?
The rebels' plan to capture the king and his agents via wrongful teleportation would not work. The king and his agents are undoubtedly thinking of their chamber in their castle when they cast the spell. That's as much an important detail as the exact dimensions and other window dressings you described.
But the question remains;
What if the 'correct' spot (ie perfectly detailed and accurate description, that perfectly matches a place that actually exists) isn't where you really want to go?
Imagine a paranoid king creates a secret teleport chamber in his castle, with highly specific angles to the walls, detailed carvings and draperies, and gives orders that the room is to be left undisturbed, so that it provides a foolproof beacon for himself and his trusted agents to travel to.
Now imagine, one of those trusted agents rebels, or a spy enters the castle, finds the secret chamber, and records the details with perfect accuracy (maybe a summoned dao, with doubleplusgoodstonecunning memorises the exact proportions). This traitor defects, and builds an exact copy of the secret teleport chamber, in the Rebel Alliance headquarters.
When the king, or one of his trusted agents, teleports while visualising the secret chamber, where do they appear?
Do 50% of their subsequent journeys go awry?
If not, why not?What if the king and his trusted agents are on campaign, the rebel baron (as yet, not unmasked) persuades a new maid to go in the secret room and clean up? Change the throws, take the rug to be beaten, throw a cloak over that ugly gargoyle? The king, and his agents decide to return home, to drum up reinforcements. When they port, visualising the secret room as it was (and still is, at Rebel HQ) do they automatically fall into the rebels' hands?
If not, why not?
Let me put it this way. You exactly where you intend to go or the spell fails. <--That is what I saying. I don't feel like writing in legalese so let me know if you are arguing semantics.
Let me put it this way. You exactly where you intend to go or the spell fails. <--That is what I saying. I don't feel like writing in legalese so let me know if you are arguing semantics.
Death to legalese. These semantics arguments for rules are so tiring. There are so many nicer things to waste time on.
Like statting that 19x Advanced Star Archon Fighter 19 I mentioned earlier.
That was fun. And I get to scare my players now :). "Hey, wanna earn 107374182400 XP the hard way? Then keep looking for those loopholes!" Not that they try that stuff.
Let me put it this way. You exactly where you intend to go or the spell fails. <--That is what I saying. I don't feel like writing in legalese so let me know if you are arguing semantics.Death to legalese. These semantics arguments for rules are so tiring. There are so many nicer things to waste time on.
Like statting that 19x Advanced Star Archon Fighter 19 I mentioned earlier.
That was fun. And I get to scare my players now :). "Hey, wanna earn 107374182400 XP the hard way? Then keep looking for those loopholes!" Not that they try that stuff.
You statted it out? Can I see?
Let me put it this way. You exactly where you intend to go or the spell fails. <--That is what I saying. I don't feel like writing in legalese so let me know if you are arguing semantics.Death to legalese. These semantics arguments for rules are so tiring. There are so many nicer things to waste time on.
Like statting that 19x Advanced Star Archon Fighter 19 I mentioned earlier.
That was fun. And I get to scare my players now :). "Hey, wanna earn 107374182400 XP the hard way? Then keep looking for those loopholes!" Not that they try that stuff.
I don't know if Snorter was doing that, but that habit is becoming annoying.
If I could make a sig it would read "Debate the point or go home."|
|
Sorry if anyone thinks I'm being an ass; my aim is to nail down these situations because they could easily come up in a game, especially at the level at which PCs are throwing around spells of that level, and their opponents are likely to be higher level still.
My players have just hit level 12, and the last adventure (at level 11) was filled with teleportation, dimension dooring, d-stepping, shadow-walking....it was pif, paf, poof, zip, zap, kabamf every encounter, and that's with the possibility of meeting something on the journey, deviation, or jumping into a solid rock (which happened once, non-fatally). Three PCs and an NPC had some form of remote viewing, telepathic bonding, and/or instant travel, so there was a lot of it going on.
I don't mind any of that, partly as the scenario had some heinous terrain (thanks, Wolfgang), which probably assumed the use of such measures, and partly as the players being careful and precise over their intent.
My worry is that once they get access to Greater Teleport, which as pointed out above, used to be named Teleport without Error, they will become utterly blase and lazy about their intent, at precisely the time they should be more on their guard, since the opposition should be anticipating the use of their teleportation tactics.
I'm trying to have a serious discussion on the actual limitations and drawbacks of teleportation (especially to remotely-viewed or casually-described targets), since I don't want a) my game to descend into tedious bashing of the 'I-Win' button, nor b) to kill my PCs, either through enemy win-buttons, or allowing them to fall into a lazy mode of play based on a misguided belief that 'everyone knows greater teleport is 100% safe'.