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Yup pretty spot on
I would only like to point out that APG material does appear in the AP's (as of Serpent's Skull) but it is all explained within the text. Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic will no doubt be implemented in a similar fashion.
After all I reckon there would be a riot on these boards if Jade Regent wasn't chock full of Ninja and Samurai goodness...
Is this supposed to be a descriptive list or a proscriptive list?
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I know many people who think otherwise. Say, how many is your many? Because mine is a lot! :)I know this is not the case today and many people don't want it to be.
I'll see your 'lot' and raise you 'loads'. :-)
Also, WRt 2) Coulcin of Thieves capped out at 13th level, not 15th. Although that is the exception at the moment.
Im with the Pony and the Bag of Teeth I think if Paizo has printed it it should be fair game for the APs
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Wait, whut? I blame your unclear post.
Okay, since I can't just say "me too" I suppose I will add a little more. I don't think the APs should be limited to only referencing the Core Rulebook. They absolutely need to reference the Bestiary - it would take up far too much room to stat out each creature in each module. Similarly, unless you want to see the same monsters over and over again, they will eventually need to reference the Bestiary 2 in the same way.
I really wouldn't want them to reference a non-Paizo product using shorthand, and sometimes the Tome of Horrors stuff is overdone (particularly when its a template that I want to know more about).
But really, at the end of the day, can't you find any Paizo rule reference contained in the AP on the PRD? As long as that is true, I don't see a problem with referencing other books in general, though I agree that optimally the APs should be as self-contained as possible, with the only exceptions being the Core Rules, Bestiary, Bestiary 2...
(and eventually the APG as those classes become more prevalent...)
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Im with the Pony and the Bag of Teeth I think if Paizo has printed it it should be fair game for the APs
I'm officially confusedd now as i thought that was my position! If not, I have to apologise to the bag and his Ponyness.
EDIT: The OP post is a little unclear. To clarify, I fully support anything in the PRD going into the APs and say the more the merrier.
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Im with the Pony and the Bag of Teeth I think if Paizo has printed it it should be fair game for the APsI'm officially confusedd now as i thought that was my position! If not, I have to apologise to the bag and his Ponyness.
My position on the issue follows the Pony and the Yeti. In particular the "geez, it's on the PRD anyway" part.
Apology accepted, erm, devoured that is. Om nom nom nom nom.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Also, if anyone wants to post to say "der, not everyone has the internet, some poor kids in the African bush play Pathfinder with sticks and mud," I'd like to preemptively say STFU, that is beyond a doubt the most retarded thing posted in this or any other forum. If you don't have access to the internet, you should work harder at getting off the streets and finding a home that is not underneath a highway overpass. This is 2011, my f@++ing toaster is a webserver.
Im with the Pony and the Bag of Teeth I think if Paizo has printed it it should be fair game for the APs
i also am fine with using stuff from other books that arent "core" books if anything it makes me want them more.
i would also like to go on record as saying that i dont want paizo toput out a bunch of adventures that are 200 pages with 60-80 percent of them tactical maps (like another company that shall remain nameless, they know who they are). i love the current format.
Also, if anyone wants to post to say "der, not everyone has the internet, some poor kids in the African bush play Pathfinder with sticks and mud," I'd like to preemptively say STFU, that is beyond a doubt the most retarded thing posted in this or any other forum. If you don't have access to the internet, you should work harder at getting off the streets and finding a home that is not underneath a highway overpass. This is 2011, my f#+~ing toaster is a webserver.
you have a red aura about you, maybe you should come back when you're not so angry.
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Also, if anyone wants to post to say "der, not everyone has the internet, some poor kids in the African bush play Pathfinder with sticks and mud," I'd like to preemptively say STFU, that is beyond a doubt the most retarded thing posted in this or any other forum. If you don't have access to the internet, you should work harder at getting off the streets and finding a home that is not underneath a highway overpass. This is 2011, my f#+~ing toaster is a webserver.you have a red aura about you, maybe you should come back when you're not so angry.
He's got a pink aura. Pony Aura. That doesn't fade.
Also, if anyone wants to post to say "der, not everyone has the internet, some poor kids in the African bush play Pathfinder with sticks and mud," I'd like to preemptively say STFU, that is beyond a doubt the most retarded thing posted in this or any other forum. If you don't have access to the internet, you should work harder at getting off the streets and finding a home that is not underneath a highway overpass. This is 2011, my f+##ing toaster is a webserver.
That's a pretty long way of writing "In before Seeker." :)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Wait, really? I created that strawman thinking nobody could make that argument with a straight face. Are these non-internet accessing people also the mythical 12 year old children that (a) play/want to play Pathfinder and (b) lack the allowance to purchase the books?
Because I suspect these 12 year olds may be displaced persons from the year 1989, and should be returned to their original timeline before this one collapses.
Wait, really? I created that strawman thinking nobody could make that argument with a straight face. Are these non-internet accessing people also the mythical 12 year old children that (a) play/want to play Pathfinder and (b) lack the allowance to purchase the books?
Because I suspect these 12 year olds may be displaced persons from the year 1989, and should be returned to their original timeline before this one collapses.
is this really a fight you want to start?. i realize it is 2011 but big surprise not everyone has a wi-fi toaster much less internet connection have you even been outside a major metropolitan area in your life?, if not heed your own advice (i dont repeat abbreviations, especially on a site with time traveling 12 year olds). i dont know where all this hostility towards people is from but KNOCK IT OFF, NO ONE HERE WANTS TO HEAR YOUR SELF-RIGHTEOUS NOISE, KEEP IT YOURSELF (or at least take it to fox news).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Uh-oh...your aura is turning red...
I couldn't possibly get outside a major metropolitan area. I would need a car to do that, and not everyone has a car. I can't believe you would assume that I have access to motorized transportation. I'm also living on a remote island, where the post office can't reach me. I tried calling customer service for help, but I didn't have a phone. Worse, I'm illiterate, and thus unable to even read. They should print the books using pictographs because not everyone knows how to read.
Edit: And where did the slam on conservatives come from? I'm not sure what that has to do with anything at all...
I don't know what's going on here at all
But... I think the core rulebook is optional
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It's also been pointed out to me that not all the books referenced are in the PRD. I think that's a more than fair point, but the "some people don't have access to the internet" argument is not.
Yeah, I hope that the embargo time for Paizo adding books to PRD gets shorter.
However, there's always Jreyst and d20pfsrd, who are rather quick about uploading Paizo open content.
4) APs should only require the Core Rulebook. Everything else should be optional or strongly suggested, not required. I know this is not the case today and many people don't want it to be.
The APs will always require the Bestiaries at an absolute minimum in addition to the Core Rulebook. There simply is not enough room in an AP to publish both the story and complete stat blocks for each creature that appears in it.
Whether *all* the Bestiaries will be required once we publish more, I don't know. That would be a Wes/James question.
It's also been pointed out to me that not all the books referenced are in the PRD. I think that's a more than fair point, but the "some people don't have access to the internet" argument is not.
Some people don't have or want access to the internet, while they're running their games. Core Rulebook and Bestiary I, sure. The rest should not be shortcutted.
Should everyone read all the monsters ahead of time, and be fully prepared? Yes. Does it always happen? Heck no. This applies even more strongly to PFS Scenarios, but that's a separate issue.
I've already seen APG content in issue of Pathfinder, and a PFS scenario, that has NOT been fully explained.
I convert the adventure paths to 4E to run them - so I hope that if non-PRD material is ever required, there is at least enough information present to make it possible to figure out what the intent was.
(Serpent Skull has some references to specific pages of the Core Rules, by page number, but don't name the topic being referenced - and a couple of them took me more than one try to figure out. On the other hand, none of those references made the material unplayable, they were only needed in order to gauge the level of dificulty the referenced weather/diseases/etc. were intended to pose. Since that's something I could decide for myself, I count that as completely acceptable.)
For example, if Bestiary 3 contains a monster called the "Gorbacz" but that creature isn't stat blocked nor described at all in the text, it causes some difficulty for conversions. If it is at least in the PRD, then I can at least guess what it should be from its stats - but at least one descriptive sentence (or presence of enough information to determine it from context) on these more obscure creature names is appreciated.
Creative Director
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Correct.
At this point, we assume you have the Core Rulebook, the Bestiary, and Bestiary 2 to run Adventure Paths. We also assume you're familiar with the Advanced Player's Guide, but generally when we use content from the APG in an adventure path, that content is either fully supported by a full stat block (say, when we publish a witch NPC) or is relatively easy to replace (say, if we use a feat or a spell from the APG). We'll note that content is from the APG, but don't explain fully things like how witch hexes, teamwork feats, create pit, or other rules elements work in the text of the adventure.
Whether or not we continue to do so is up to feedback we receive... but so far, folks seem to be pretty okay with how we're handling it.
NOTE: Fully explaining how an APG class works, or reprinting all the spells an NPC might know from the APG (even if it's just one or two spells) isn't an option in an adventure. We need all the room we can get to present a complete adventure, after all, and every line we use reprinting material that's freely available on the internet or easily available in a rulebook is one line less we can use for the adventure itself. In the case of an Adventure Path adventure, those have a minimum number of encounters that are required so that characters can gain enough XP to progress to the next volume, and using short stats from Bestairy 2 and not reprinting full class or spell or feat rules is the only way we can do this AND still support our rulebooks. The other option is to basically never use content beyond the Core Rulebook and the Bestairy—and that's an even WORSE option. If only because we do hundreds of pages of adventures per year. We need the variety, particularly in monsters.
My best advice for folks who don't want to or can't use the internet at the game is to, as part of your prep, look through the adventure and note what parts of the adventure you'll need to understand. If there's elements from books you don't have or don't want to bring to the game, go to the PRD and print out the relevant sections and just carry those pages to your game. Or go REAL low-tech and just copy the info you need onto a piece of scrap paper.
And with each year, access to things like iPads is only going to get more universal—I suspect that each year that goes on, this whole issue will become less and less of one.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Correct.
Not only did Sebastian win the internet, he even got James to agree with his initial post. Wow, just wow. I actually enjoy the pony's posts but even I was surprised by this turn of events.
+1 here. Put lots of PF rules in PF adventure paths. I know that sounds crazy, but I'm all for seeing rules I pay for used in adventures I buy that rely on the rules I pay for to run.
Heck, I don't use a computer at my games and I can't get wireless where we game (ironic since it is a LAN gaming location) so I just print stuff off ahead of time. If I had to, I could do that at a library if I didn't have computer access myself. Part of being a GM is prep. This is a hobby I choose to do not something I'm required to do, right?
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My best advice for folks who don't want to or can't use the internet at the game is to, as part of your prep, look through the adventure and note what parts of the adventure you'll need to understand. If there's elements from books you don't have or don't want to bring to the game, go to the PRD and print out the relevant sections
Which brings me to my main remaining problem. Ive acceptred the use of Bestiary 2 for adventures however my problem is that we are on to just about the third carrion crown adventure and we are being told to go to a website that still does not have the Bestiary 2 information up on it.
We'll note that content is from the APG, but don't explain fully things like how witch hexes, teamwork feats, create pit, or other rules elements work in the text of the adventure.
One thing you could do is say something like "If you don't have access to <book y>, replace <monster a> with <monster b>, <item a> with <item b>, and <class a> with <class b>". Perhaps in that issue's foreword.
That might help ease the minds of those who don't want to run with anything beyond the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary.
)...We'll note that content is from the APG, but don't explain fully* things like how witch hexes, teamwork feats, create pit, or other rules elements work in the text of the adventure...
How exactly is that not assuming someone has access to the APG? I'm not out to pick a fight, but your post contradicts itself. Why the hesitation to just acknowledge that the AP now assumes access to the APG?
*Emphasis mine.
4) APs will require the Core Rulebook and the two Bestiaries, but not the APG. (My understanding is that they're considering changing this, but so far you've been able to run all APs without the APG.)
Incorrect. Carrion Crown assumes APG access in numerous places. I'll dig up page #s if you like.
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Creative Director
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My best advice for folks who don't want to or can't use the internet at the game is to, as part of your prep, look through the adventure and note what parts of the adventure you'll need to understand. If there's elements from books you don't have or don't want to bring to the game, go to the PRD and print out the relevant sectionsWhich brings me to my main remaining problem. Ive acceptred the use of Bestiary 2 for adventures however my problem is that we are on to just about the third carrion crown adventure and we are being told to go to a website that still does not have the Bestiary 2 information up on it.
That's unfortunate, and I've been trying to get the Bestiary 2 information up online at our PRD for many, many months, now. I've just sent the request upstairs again via the publisher. Hopefully we'll see Bestairy 2 on the PRD before much longer.
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Creative Director
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)...We'll note that content is from the APG, but don't explain fully* things like how witch hexes, teamwork feats, create pit, or other rules elements work in the text of the adventure...How exactly is that not assuming someone has the APG? I'm not out to pick a fight, but your post contradicts itself. Why the hesitation to just acknowledge that the AP now assumes the APG?
*Emphasis mine.
Because I'm trying to avoid riling people up by saying things that they'll gleefully misinterpret or take out of context. But since you're calling me out... OBVIOUSLY I prefer that everyone who plays an AP buys the APG. And Ultimate Combat, and Ultimate Magic, and honestly, everything else we produce. The more we sell of our books, the better Paizo does. And building in elements that promote the need to buy other books is akin to self-promotion and advertising. It's a fact of life.
Now... I much prefer folks would buy the APG because they think there's neat stuff in there and because they WANT to buy the book, rather than because of a perception that we're tricking or forcing them into buying a book they don't want in order for them to run an adventure they DO want.
But there's a weird bit of catch-22 there. If you WANT to run an adventure that contains APG material... wouldn't you WANT the APG as well?
Furthermore... I happen to be really proud of our books. And being able to use the new content we come up with in non-AP lines IN an Adventure Path is really rather delightful and fun.
If the concept of Paizo supporting Paizo products IN Paizo products annoys you... I'm not sure what to say.
Because we aren't going to shift to not supporting our own products. That's self-defeating.
)...We'll note that content is from the APG, but don't explain fully* things like how witch hexes, teamwork feats, create pit, or other rules elements work in the text of the adventure...How exactly is that not assuming someone has the APG? I'm not out to pick a fight, but your post contradicts itself. Why the hesitation to just acknowledge that the AP now assumes the APG?
*Emphasis mine.
Because I'm trying to avoid riling people up by saying things that they'll gleefully misinterpret or take out of context. But since you're calling me out... OBVIOUSLY I prefer that everyone who plays an AP buys the APG. And Ultimate Combat, and Ultimate Magic, and honestly, everything else we produce. The more we sell of our books, the better Paizo does. And building in elements that promote the need to buy other books is akin to self-promotion and advertising. It's a fact of life.
Now... I much prefer folks would buy the APG because they think there's neat stuff in there and because they WANT to buy the book, rather than because of a perception that we're tricking or forcing them into buying a book they don't want in order for them to run an adventure they DO want.
But there's a weird bit of catch-22 there. If you WANT to run an adventure that contains APG material... wouldn't you WANT the APG as well?
Furthermore... I happen to be really proud of our books. And being able to use the new content we come up with in non-AP lines IN an Adventure Path is really rather delightful and fun.
If the concept of Paizo supporting Paizo products IN Paizo products annoys you... I'm not sure what to say.
Because we aren't going to shift to not supporting our own products. That's self-defeating.
I did not advocate a course of action, nor did I express any opinion of what Paizo should be doing. I merely pointed out that your answer to the OP was factually inaccurate. The OP asked if access (of one kind or another) to APG material is required to run the APs. By any reasonable definition (and according to your own post in this thread), it is. Hence the correction.
Edited for snark.
Removed some posts. Please take a step back and relax—it's Friday after all, with hopefully some gaming in your upcoming weekend. :)
James I think most of us understand the crunch of cramming so much in the limited space, but just be aware that one big reason for some us buying the APs is convenience. For me its the big motivator as I'm time poor so having something that cuts down on pre-game prep workload is great.
I'm currently GMing Serpent's Skull AP and think that you've got it right there with the stat blocks printed and the stat block referred. But if there were several stat blocks referring to Bestiary 1, some referring to Bestiary 2, some referring APG and then a few references to regional books (Chronicles & Companions) it just becomes a hassale. Or a back breaker in dragging all these books to the game. I guess we could have a computer/laptop at the table, but we don't want that as it tends to be a distraction.
I'm not criticising or anything I just wanted to add that an important feature and benefit of the AP productline is the convienence and ease they provide GMs. Please don't forget that when you guys evaluate the content that goes into the APs. I don't think I'd be buying them if I had to constantly chase things up on the internet or flick through books to find out what some small feat/poison/ability/whatever does.
I'd like you guys to keep doing things the way you're doing them now.
BQ -as an AP fan, you've got another thing to consider, and that's how many times you want to see AP wordcount eaten up by reprinted rules content when things could be looked up during prep time instead. Do you really need to see the haunt rules one more time, or does a simple reference to the GMG suffice? Would you rather that writers reuse the same monsters over and over and over (and with as many APs as there are over a range of levels, there isn't a big pool to draw from) or let them be more creative and original by granting them access to further Bestiaries?
As an AP writer, I think James' assumption of hardcover or PRD access (not Chronicles or other material) is the correct one, unless you guys want APs filled with all the same Bestiary I monsters you've seen in every other AP, or want wordcount gobbled up with rules reprints for haunts, hazards, long statblocks of creatures readily available in the Bestiary II, or every magic item or base class ability from the APG that appears.
If I'd had to do that with my last AP chapter, I would have had to ditch a quarter of the content just in rules reprints, and I didn't use all that much non-core material -mostly some Bestiary II critters, along with some haunts. While I can understand the point, there is also creative leeway to consider, not to mention same-creature-fatigue born of multiple APs using all the same basic material.
)...We'll note that content is from the APG, but don't explain fully* things like how witch hexes, teamwork feats, create pit, or other rules elements work in the text of the adventure...How exactly is that not assuming someone has access to the APG? I'm not out to pick a fight, but your post contradicts itself. Why the hesitation to just acknowledge that the AP now assumes access to the APG?
*Emphasis mine.
You do not need access to the APG. For example, Witch. You have free access to that information without access to a copy of the APG.
But we have been down this road before, and it seems to me that there are folks who would just as soon as do away with any rulebooks, and just have each adveture reproduce the PRD. This way you would always have everything in one spot. Thankfully that is not feasible, nor is it desirable, imo.
The way I see it, one will always hqve times when you do not have access to certain books, for whatever reason, though primarily monetarily. In those cases, you can attempt to gain access to the free options that are on the net, or borrow from a friend
I understqnd that there are some out there that like to GM with no prep, but in that case you are probably good at winging it anyway. Moreover, if you did decide to prep a little and look up those items that you do not have a book for that bit of prep time does not offsetthe value gained from adding more varied options and more page count for the APs.
It seems to me that Paizo has offered a happy medium by providing the material online for free. (I know some of the material is not currently available, but it will be)
Cheers!
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Because I'm trying to avoid riling people up by saying things that they'll gleefully misinterpret or take out of context. But since you're calling me out... OBVIOUSLY I prefer that everyone who plays an AP buys the APG. And Ultimate Combat, and Ultimate Magic, and honestly, everything else we produce. The more we sell of our books, the better Paizo does. And building in elements that promote the need to buy other books is akin to self-promotion and advertising. It's a fact of life.
Now... I much prefer folks would buy the APG because they think there's neat stuff in there and because they WANT to buy the book, rather than because of a perception that we're tricking or forcing them into buying a book they don't want in order for them to run an adventure they DO want.
I think that the existence of the PRD, and the fact that so much of what Paizo makes is open content, establishes that you are operating in good faith.
Most of the vocal protesters probably don't fully understand just how much is legitimately available for free.
Pathfinder works very well as a content-driven publication sustained by ubiquitous, freely available mechanics. That's how it started in 3.5, and it is awesome that it has remained so.
EDIT: And may I just say that although mechanics development is a crucial part of the whole thing, I believe that mechanics as the primary sale product is a paradox. The dust needs to settle at some point, and the real product should be adventure content.</rant>
One thing I don't understand is why there are full stat blocks of monsters printed in-line with the module (usually from Tome of Horrors), and there are also monsters in the bestiary section of the AP that never show up in the module.
The wordcount is there: right there is the AP's Bestiary. Why not use that space to put these new and unique monsters, instead of giving us these neat critters that we'll never use?
You could use the arguement that a GM could use that monster in some other campaign he's writing: but that'd be a pain in the neck to remember which AP volume "that small white guy made from dead babies" was found in when he's trying to put together his world.