Pg. 203 Core Rulebook:
Initiative Consequences of Delaying: Your initiative
result becomes the count on which you took the delayed
action. If you come to your next action and have not yet
performed an action, you don’t get to take a delayed action
(though you can delay again).
What does this mean?
What does this mean?
Let's say the initiative order is:
Merisiel 15Valeros 12
An Orc 10
Kyra 5
Merisiel gets to act first but no one is threatening the orc and she wants to wait until the orc is in a position to where she can flank it. So, she delays. (She can't ready an action to attack because in this case she needs to move more than 5 feet.)
Valeros moves forward and attacks.
Since Valeros is now threating, Merisiel can move and sneak attack. So, Merisiel's initiative count drops to 11 and its the orcs turn, followed by Kyra.
So, for the next round the initiative order is:
Valeros 12
Merisiel 11
An Orc 10
Kyra 5
Valeros goes first, then followed by Merisiel.
Let's say last round she was tripped by the orc, so this time Merisiel wants to delay again instead of standing and provoking.
The orc goes, followed again by Kyra and back to the top of the order with Valeros.
Since Merisiel didn't act last round she can't take her delayed action and then another, basically she lost that action waiting for someone to kill the orc.
Important things to note: When you delay you do not have to say when in the order you want to act, although you could. You merely tell the GM when you want to stop delaying. You can't interrupt another characters turn, but unless that character has begun to act you get go before them.
Personally, I find delaying to be terribly underutilized. I don't know how many time have I seen something like the above example where the player is so fixated on "it's my turn" they will have Merisiel attack instead of waiting for the flank and doing the extra sneak attack damage.
So does this make sense...see the bold.
Pg. 203 Core Rulebook:
Initiative Consequences of Delaying: Your initiative
result becomes the count on which you took the delayed
action. If you come to your next action and have not yet
performed an action, you don’t get to take a delayed action
along with your current turns action
(though you can delay again).
Pg. 203
If you take a delayed action in the next round, before
your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to
that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get
your regular action that round.
So it looks like you can delay into the next round and get a higher initiative count, but I am thinking you still only get one action when you choose to act. Am I understanding this correctly?
So it looks like you can delay into the next round and get a higher initiative count, but I am thinking you still only get one action when you choose to act. Am I understanding this correctly?
Correct. Delaying does not allow you to get two full rounds worth of actions in one turn.
(She can't ready an action to attack because in this case she needs to move more than 5 feet.)
Thank you for the detailed explanation.
I would like to ask for more clarification. Could she move into position next to the Orc and then as a standard action ready her attack for the trigger of when Valeros moves forward and attacks...I should say the trigger is right after Valeros attacks. She could then do her ready action of attack?I am understanding Delay/Ready options correctly? Thanks.
Thank you for the detailed explanation.
I would like to ask for more clarification. Could she move into position next to the Orc and then as a standard action ready her attack for the trigger of when Valeros moves forward and attacks...I should say the trigger is right after Valeros attacks. She could then do her ready action of attack?
As I understand it, there would be nothing wrong with moving into melee combat, then readying an action to attack when you are flanking.
The only problem I see with this is what if Valeros doesn't/can't move into the flanking position? She's not only used her move action, but is also tied into a specific readied action ("If this happens, then I get to do that").
**EDIT**
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
You still lose your spot in the Initiative order if you Ready an action. Considering this, there's really no good reason I can think of to not just Delay.
Could she move into position next to the Orc and then as a standard action ready her attack for the trigger of when Valeros moves forward and attacks...I should say the trigger is right after Valeros attacks. She could then do her ready action of attack?
Yes, though it may not be the best choice. The initiative consequences are the same, the only difference is Valeros would get a flanking bonus (because she's threatening the orc) but if he kills it, her standard action is wasted.
So with a ready action if the trigger doesn't occur then you don't get to use the readied action that round?
So with a ready action if the trigger doesn't occur then you don't get to use the readied action that round?
Correct.
A better use of Merisiel's actions might be to move, then ready an action to hit the orc, triggered by someone making an attack. (Not having ended their attack) this means when Valeros gets in range of the goblin, but before he attacks, Merisiel's Ready is triggered and she attacks. If the goblin survives, Valeros can make his attack (also flanking) but if it dies, Valeros can use his standard action to do something else.
Merisiel would still act before Valeros in subsequent rounds. (Her initiative count is when her Readied action goes off, which is before the action that triggered it)
Thanks. That makes sense. I think I now understand Delay and Ready.
I have found that by having my NPCs delaying to their advantage, that the players become more comfortable delaying as well.
Few things are as effective for "teaching" players some aspect of the mechanics than having the GM use those mechanics to good effect.
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Sort of a tangent, but this is part of the problem with "Brace" weapon property. You have to ready the brace for an incoming charge attack. If that attack does not happen by the time your next turn starts, you wasted your previous round turn. I've only had it happen once against my wildshaped druid. The NPC warriors had braced with long spears. I humored my DM and ran towards them to trample, taking the free attack just to see how effective it was since we both never see it done. It's really not that impressive.
Since ready is a standard action, can you do it as AoO that you get during a charge?
Since ready is a standard action, can you do it as AoO that you get during a charge?
An attack of opportunity only lets you make a melee attack, it doesn't let you substitute that attack for a different standard action.
Also, you usually don't get an AoO during a charge.
This thread has been very helpful. I learned we have been running readied actions incorrectly, since we allowed them to ready full-round actions ("I charge whatever comes through that door!"). Thanks for my daily dose of edumacation!
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Since ready is a standard action, can you do it as AoO that you get during a charge?
Brace is a weapon quality for some reach weapons, such as longspear. You can ready to attack vs. a charge with a brace weapon, and if so, get additional damage. It isn't an AoO.
An AoO is an attack. You cannot use the AoO to set up a readied action; setting up a readied action requires a standard action, which you only have during your own turn, not during an AoO.
Charging doesn't provoke an AoO. The movement during a charge does, like other movement. Moving through the reach of a character with a reach weapon provokes an AoO, whether the movement is from a charge or not.
If readied to receive a charge with a reaching brace weapon vs. a charging orc with battle axe, you would get your readied action at reach, giving extra damage, and you would also get your AoO at reach when the charging orc left that square to move adjacent and finish his charge. If he survived, only then would he get his attack. Having executed a readied action, your initiative would change to just before the orc's.
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This thread has been very helpful. I learned we have been running readied actions incorrectly, since we allowed them to ready full-round actions ("I charge whatever comes through that door!"). Thanks for my daily dose of edumacation!
Yeah, Delaying allows you to take full-round aciton, such as charge, but Ready only allows you to take a single action (std, move, free, or swift). The advantage of Readying an action is that it allows a character to act in the middle of the actions of another character. Delaying allows changing when a character goes in the initiative round, but doesn't allow taking action in the middle of another character's actions.
For those new to Delay, a typical procedure is for GM to acknowledge the delay and tell the player to let him know when he's going to act. When the player is going to act, to then tell the GM, ahead of time if possible.
GM: "Ok, Mary is in delay. Mary, let me know when you want to come back in."
(several PCs and NPCs act)
Mary (during John's turn): "GM, I'm coming out of delay after John finishes Wizbang's turn..."
Great info...thanks!
For those new to Delay, a typical procedure is for GM to acknowledge the delay and tell the player to let him know when he's going to act. When the player is going to act, to then tell the GM, ahead of time if possible.
GM: "Ok, Mary is in delay. Mary, let me know when you want to come back in."
(several PCs and NPCs act)
Mary (during John's turn): "GM, I'm coming out of delay after John finishes Wizbang's turn..."
I've had players delay their action in a round and then forget to use it. When we roll back around to their initiative the next round I invariably get told "But I didn't get a turn last round!" My response is invariably "That's because you delayed but never took your turn!"
So, please, players...don't forget to take your delayed actions. I have enough things going on as DM to remind you that you have a delayed action. *grin*
If readied to receive a charge with a reaching brace weapon vs. a charging orc with battle axe, you would get your readied action at reach, giving extra damage, and you would also get your AoO at reach when the charging orc left that square to move adjacent and finish his charge. If he survived, only then would he get his attack. Having executed a readied action, your initiative would change to just before the orc's.
Actually that is not completely correct. He would not change his initiative to right before the orcs if he uses the ready action only by using a delay. Let me demonstrate the ready with a small round.
player 1
player 2
Orc
Player 3
player 1 ready's an action to strike when an enemy (orc here) moves into range. He would then use his turn doing that, and if the orc at anytime moves into range of player 1 he gets to interrupt the orcs turn, with an attack, and the orc would then finish its turn. The initiative count would still be the same next round. This means that if the orc had lowest initiative and acted just before player 1, then he would get an attack, the orc would finish, and it would then be player 1's turn.
I find it easyest to imagine the initiative order as a wheel, meaning once the combat has started its only important where your turn is in the order, and once you have acted you get placed at the bottom of the initiative. If you delay you remove yourself from the order and can jump in when you want (not during a turn).
@dosgamer
actually you can ready a charge action, but that is only becouse charge can also be a standard action if that is all you have. You are then limited to a maximum charge distance of your movement instead of dubble movement, but that is about it.
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If readied to receive a charge with a reaching brace weapon vs. a charging orc with battle axe, you would get your readied action at reach, giving extra damage, and you would also get your AoO at reach when the charging orc left that square to move adjacent and finish his charge. If he survived, only then would he get his attack. Having executed a readied action, your initiative would change to just before the orc's.Actually that is not completely correct. He would not change his initiative to right before the orcs if he uses the ready action only by using a delay. Let me demonstrate the ready with a small round.
player 1
player 2
Orc
Player 3player 1 ready's an action to strike when an enemy (orc here) moves into range. He would then use his turn doing that, and if the orc at anytime moves into range of player 1 he gets to interrupt the orcs turn, with an attack, and the orc would then finish its turn. The initiative count would still be the same next round. This means that if the orc had lowest initiative and acted just before player 1, then he would get an attack, the orc would finish, and it would then be player 1's turn.
No, my explanation about change in initiative is correct. See the bold text here:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
If readied to receive a charge with a reaching brace weapon vs. a charging orc with battle axe, you would get your readied action at reach, giving extra damage, and you would also get your AoO at reach when the charging orc left that square to move adjacent and finish his charge. If he survived, only then would he get his attack. Having executed a readied action, your initiative would change to just before the orc's.Actually that is not completely correct. He would not change his initiative to right before the orcs if he uses the ready action only by using a delay. Let me demonstrate the ready with a small round.
player 1
player 2
Orc
Player 3player 1 ready's an action to strike when an enemy (orc here) moves into range. He would then use his turn doing that, and if the orc at anytime moves into range of player 1 he gets to interrupt the orcs turn, with an attack, and the orc would then finish its turn. The initiative count would still be the same next round. This means that if the orc had lowest initiative and acted just before player 1, then he would get an attack, the orc would finish, and it would then be player 1's turn.
That is incorrect.
Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
and a good thing to see that my rules fu is not complete. Guess i will have to practise harder, should have read up on it maybe.
but the ready'ed charge action should still be legal.
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but the ready'ed charge action should still be legal.
This has been debated a couple of times. You can charge when you only have a standard action, such as when in a surprise round or when slowed. Voluntarily reducing your action to only a standard action isn't the same thing. The interpretation that only taking a standard action allows you to charge seems to be fairly common in Europe. Whether you can ready to charge during a surprise round or when slowed is one side of this is debatable and subject to some interpretation. Voluntarily taking only a standard action, and then citing it as qualifying you to charge at all, much less ready is generally not supported by the rules. As said tho, there seems to be some difference in this between European practice and in the US.
Also, I think that DGRM44's and Grick's examples from above aren't correct (of course, an equally probable possibility is me having it done wrong all the time - actually, I'm more and more afraid of that being the case, the more I think about it). So just tell me I'm wrong, I won't put up much of a fight:
IMO you cannot move (unless it's a 5ft step) and ready an attack, since readying itself is already a standard action. (Which weirdly enough lets you ready another standard action, so I'm more ror less telling myself I gotta be wrong already.)
IMO you cannot move (unless it's a 5ft step) and ready an attack, since readying itself is already a standard action.
The act of readying an action counts as a standard action. Since you can typically do one move action and one standard action on your turn, there's nothing preventing you from moving first, and then using your standard action for the turn to ready an action.
but the ready'ed charge action should still be legal.This has been debated a couple of times. You can charge when you only have a standard action, such as when in a surprise round or when slowed. Voluntarily reducing your action to only a standard action isn't the same thing. The interpretation that only taking a standard action allows you to charge seems to be fairly common in Europe. Whether you can ready to charge during a surprise round or when slowed is one side of this is debatable and subject to some interpretation. Voluntarily taking only a standard action, and then citing it as qualifying you to charge at all, much less ready is generally not supported by the rules. As said tho, there seems to be some difference in this between European practice and in the US.
Correct, per RAW (based on the PRD entry) you can't charge as a standard action if you would normally be entitled to a full-round action. In this hypothetical case that I was envisioning, the player knows someone is about to barge in through the door, has a full-round action available, has an initiative higher than the enemy, and opts to ready an action (rather than delay until after they go) for when someone opens the door in order to charge them before they get into the room. Not allowed by RAW.
They could delay until after someone has barged in the door, but then they have to wait until after said enemy has completed whatever it is they are going to do. Potentially not as tactically helpful as stopping someone in the doorway.
However, the PC could always move up to the door and ready an action to attack the first enemy into the room with a standard action. Easy enough, but not quite the same effect. /salute!
IMO you cannot move (unless it's a 5ft step) and ready an attack, since readying itself is already a standard action.The act of readying an action counts as a standard action. Since you can typically do one move action and one standard action on your turn, there's nothing preventing you from moving first, and then using your standard action for the turn to ready an action.
Thanks. My mistake was counting the action being readied towards your action limit. So readying just makes you loose a bit of initiative or the action that never triggered. Way better like this. *relieved*
Correct, per RAW (based on the PRD entry) you can't charge as a standard action if you would normally be entitled to a full-round action. In this hypothetical case that I was envisioning, the player knows someone is about to barge in through the door, has a full-round action available, has an initiative higher than the enemy, and opts to ready an action (rather than delay until after they go) for when someone opens the door in order to charge them before they get into the room. Not allowed by RAW.They could delay until after someone has barged in the door, but then they have to wait until after said enemy has completed whatever it is they are going to do. Potentially not as tactically helpful as stopping someone in the doorway.
However, the PC could always move up to the door and ready an action to attack the first enemy into the room with a standard action. Easy enough, but not quite the same effect. /salute!
I think I agree with current RAW as charge allows a move and attack so the time required to pull it off is more than most standard actions. I think you can ready a bull rush for the scenario you described or like you said the attack but not both together. However a GM may allow a house rule that if you ready a charge but don't take it until after your next turn then you can use it, thus the time issue is handled.
So Turn 1 you ready your charge for the open door, but you can't execute until after your initiative comes back around in Turn 2 or after that...so if the door opens before that you can't act but if it opens after your next turn you are free to slam them with the charge attack. Just my two cents and it seems to fit with the time constraints they are trying to stick to in the RAW.
In this situation you actually would not lose your initiative position since interrupting a creature with a readied action puts your initiative before the creature you interrupted.
In this example that is true. In general, your initiative does drop. If there was someone in the initiative order between when you readied and when you acted you would go after them.
For example:
Merisiel
Orc A
Valeros
Orc B
Merisiel readies to attack when Valeros flanks. So, Valeros triggers Merisiel's readied action but for the next round the order looks like"
Orc A
Merisiel
Valeros
Orc B