Charisma doesn't make you dashing either.
Physical looks are not the same as attractiveness though the two are related.
*sigh* remember the days of Unearthed Arcana and the introduction of Appearance as a stat...made things so much easier...
I preferred the polearm section myself...
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Charisma doesn't make you dashing either.
Physical looks are not the same as attractiveness though the two are related.
And you well know that attractive is not all dashing entails. It includes a certain personal magnetism...and what governs that?
If I want a treaty, I send the high diplomacy character.
Being diplomatic is not the same as being charismatic.
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Then Ciretose using a 15 point buy. Pleas make a good fighter that dose not dump Cha. Or for that fact make any 15 point buy with out using a dump stat. Thats the real test of character creation. Is showing you can do it. Now with out dump stats on Standard Fantasy 15 point buy. Not using High Fantasy 20 or Epic Fantasy 25 point buy. You might use a higher point buy. That dose not chane the fact every thing is writen for a 15 point buy.
I keap coming up with befor modifiers.
Str 15 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 8 or
Str 17 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 8
With out dump stats
Str 17 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10
On a side note using 15 point buy. Realy makes animal companions and edilons much more powerfull. Becous your using the same point buy as the players now.
If you people dislike Charisma so much why not get rid of it. Most of this is house rule type fixes or straight opinion anyway. Just house rule away the entire stat. divide the skills it governs to either Int or Wis. and give it's spells and powers function over to either Int if arcane or Wis if divine. If rolling characters then roll one less stat. If buying with points then reduce the point pool by one sixth dropping fractions. So roll 5 stats or buy with 13 points instead of 15 for example. Now no one can tell you how to play your character. It will shut up the complainers that moan that you can't play a charming person with an 8 Cha (even if you bought the Charming trait!).
Myself I just let the players come up with a reason why they have a penalty on charisma rolls. I don't force them to play the way I want them to.
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Then Ciretose using a 15 point buy. Pleas make a good fighter that dose not dump Cha. Or for that fact make any 15 point buy with out using a dump stat. Thats the real test of character creation. Is showing you can do it. Now with out dump stats on Standard Fantasy 15 point buy. Not using High Fantasy 20 or Epic Fantasy 25 point buy. You might use a higher point buy. That dose not chane the fact every thing is writen for a 15 point buy.
I keap coming up with befor modifiers.
Str 15 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 8 or
Str 17 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 8
With out dump stats
Str 17 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10On a side note using 15 point buy. Realy makes animal companions and edilons much more powerfull. Becous your using the same point buy as the players now.
Make a brilliant sorcerer. Or a wise wizard.
Selecting skills comes down to priority. If you want to be more charismatic you need to be less something else.
This is why bards are so under rated.
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If you people dislike Charisma so much why not get rid of it. Most of this is house rule type fixes or straight opinion anyway. Just house rule away the entire stat. divide the skills it governs to either Int or Wis. and give it's spells and powers function over to either Int if arcane or Wis if divine. If rolling characters then roll one less stat. If buying with points then reduce the point pool by one sixth dropping fractions. So roll 5 stats or buy with 13 points instead of 15 for example. Now no one can tell you how to play your character. It will shut up the complainers that moan that you can't play a charming person with an 8 Cha (even if you bought the Charming trait!).
Myself I just let the players come up with a reason why they have a penalty on charisma rolls. I don't force them to play the way I want them to.
Throw out strength while you are at it, I don't want my wizard to be weak. And ex, as I don't want a penalty to ranged attacks or ac. Also, con, as I need those hit ponts...
Charisma doesn't make you dashing either.
Physical looks are not the same as attractiveness though the two are related.
And you well know that attractive is not all dashing entails. It includes a certain personal magnetism...and what governs that?
If I want a treaty, I send the high diplomacy character.
Being diplomatic is not the same as being charismatic.
Oh I agree that being dashing is much easier with charisma -- but just pointing out that it isn't impossible without.
For example if you have high strength, dexterity and constitution it would be very fair to say that your physical body is very fit, cut, and pleasing to the eye -- that doesn't mean that people are going to like you, or that you don't have bad habits that put people off (nose picking, slouching, poor hygiene, etc) -- but the basics of looking good are there.
Throw out strength while you are at it, I don't want my wizard to be weak. And ex, as I don't want a penalty to ranged attacks or ac. Also, con, as I need those hit ponts...
I see someone sees a humorous side to my first paragraph. :)
Statless DnD might be a very interesting concept. I might actually try that as a test campaign to see how it works.
This is why bards are so under rated.
Full agreement -- bards can be good at everything due to their ability to use skills in place of other skills.
Being diplomatic is not the same as being charismatic.
Exactly this, for all the ability scores in the game. It's purely a one-way street.
Being athletic doesn't make you strong, being Strong makes you a better athlete.
Being acrobatic doesn't make you dextrous, being dexterous makes you a better acrobat.
Having knowledge doesn't make you intelligent, being intelligent makes you more knowledgeable.
Being perceptive doesn't make you wise, being wise makes you more perceptive.
And of course,
Being diplomatic doesn't make you charismatic, being charismatic makes you a better diplomat.
The ability scores set the foundation for almost every other number on your character. They have a much higher effect than just being an abstract backdrop. They are the one of the core central definitions of the character (along with race and class), and everything else grows from it. Yes everything can be learned, trained, practiced, but for everything that isn't covered refer back to Ability scores, Race and Class.
Example: The rules for Initiative show us this. In the case of a tie, the one with the highest bonus, if that is a tie, use the highest ability score. Because overall, all things being equal, the one with the higher score is naturally better, and the other one is just trained. Sometimes training just can't match a natural knack for something.
Same could be done with Diplomacy. Two sides trying to sway the prince. All else is equal, they rolled the same number, they have the same +8 to diplomacy, but one has a 14 and the other a 7. Just like intiative, defer to the higher ability score. Natural talent wins over again.
Example: The rules for Initiative show us this. In the case of a tie, the one with the highest bonus, if that is a tie, use the highest ability score. Because overall, all things being equal, the one with the higher score is naturally better, and the other one is just trained. Sometimes training just can't match a natural knack for something.
Same could be done with Diplomacy. Two sides trying to sway the prince. All else is equal, they rolled the same number, they have the same +8 to diplomacy, but one has a 14 and the other a 7. Just like intiative, defer to the higher ability score. Natural talent wins over again.
If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll to determine which one of them goes before the other.
That means if you've got a guy with a 16 Dex (+3) and a guy with a 10 Dex and Improved Initiative (+4) then the Improved Initiative guy goes first when they roll a tie. Otherwise, roll to settle ties.
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Wraithstrike is correct in his assessment of Sigfried.
The post about practical optimization takes only the rules as written into considerations, not house rules. The description for Charisma describes it as an (unspecified) measurement of several traits, but it has no specified effect on the game outside of its modifiers (in the same way that Strength has no specified impact on a character's muscle size or density).
We can see that the only written account of making friends is with the Diplomacy skill. You can, in fact, cause someone to change their attitude of you and Friendly and Helpful are the best results. This attitude shift generally lasts several hours, but can last longer as subject to the plot (GM's discretion). Going with what we have, we can see that the game expects us to make friends and influence people via Diplomacy (which is a Charisma based skill, which coincides with the Charisma description).
The post also is about understanding the rule system and using it to work. As Ciretose has explained, no matter how much you describe your character as being able to do something, you cannot do it if the rules are against you. A strength 3 wizard can roleplay his knocking down a door all he wants, but if he cannot roll that DC 18 check, the door will not fall down. Therefor, it's important that we understand what works, what doesn't, and how to use that to build the characters that we want, without being enslaved by the system itself.
In Sigfried's case, we wanted him to be a dashing:
–adjective
1. energetic and spirited; lively: a dashing hero.
2. elegant and gallant in appearance and manner: a dashing young cavalry officer.
3. showy; stylish.
Sigfried can be energetic, spirited, lively. He can become elegant and gallant in his appearance and mannerisms. He can be showy, and stylish.
Dashing? Check.By 3rd-5th level, he's of above average to great in his ability to interact with others, make friends, make requests or ask for favors, or convince someone to do something they normally wouldn't.
Meanwhile, he's also a good Fighter, and it also good at other things as well. He's a good tracker and hunter, can train and ride animals, and is pretty athletic, as well as being pretty good at noticing lies, and so forth.
Sigfried is a complete success because as far as the rules are concerned, he can do everything that we wished he could. In the process, he also lost the ability to be a great liar, or to blindly activate wands and such (he cannot hit DC 20), which is perfectly fine 'cause we don't see Sigfried doing that kind of thing anyway.
This is a testament to the system as well, because it made Sigfried. A very believable character who can, in a believable fashion, begin as socially awkward and work his way up to being a very charming fellow that can woo the ladies. This is a shining success for both the builder and for the system.
I just find one an elegant example of the system, and the other illogical.
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On another note, as others have pointed out, having lower ability scores in certain areas means you will be naturally weaker in those areas. This improves the satisfaction of growth, as you can see where you were poor, but now are decent, and then good, and so forth. It also makes more believable characters.
Because people who are just great at everything, or completely average, aren't really something I'd be interesting in playing very much.
Compare:
18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18
13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12
15, 12, 13, 14, 12, 7.
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Misrepresentation of what I said, combined with selective logic.
No.
What I showed is that through circumstance Sigfried can woo the fair maiden by slaying the dragon, but he’s still not very charismatic. He’s may be brave, he may be strong, and now he is probably rich, but he’s not a born leader with a magnetic personality and good looks.
Sigfried can go to law school, learn how to negotiate contracts and treaties and take classes on public speaking. But he’s still not a natural leader with a magnetic personality and good looks.
Because Sigfried is not very charismatic. And no amount of skill training is going to change that any more than any amount of skill training will allow him to bend bars. It will allow him to work around most issues that might come up as a lack of charisma. But it doesn’t make him charismatic.
The fair maiden loves him anyway, because he is brave and strong. Or maybe she will love someone because they are very smart, or very wise. Circumstances dictate what develops as the story unfolds. The awkward hero may still win her heart through his other attributes.
But if he has a 7 charisma, he will be less charismatic than most of the people in the room.
Now if he wants to use his Ability point boost every 4 levels to improve his charisma, he can. If he wants to wear a magic item he can.
But he isn’t same as a high charisma character just because you took ranks in diplomacy.
It wasn’t that “Ciretose said” there was 1 minute of interaction. It is what the skill does. Page 93 of Core
Diplomacy
“You can use this skill to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people. This skill is also used to negotiate conflicts by using the proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem.”
That is what it does.
As to the specific use to change attitude, yes it takes a full minute of interaction, but in addition the effect is generally temporary.
“Any attitude shift caused through Diplomacy generally lasts for 1d4 hours but can last much longer or shorter depending upon the situation”
This isn’t the same as becoming charming. This isn’t the same as becoming dashing. This is an ability that gives you the ability to negotiate conflicts and gather information through use of “proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem.”
Do you intend to woo the fair maiden for 1d4 hours thanks to your amazing politeness skills?
Dashing isn’t knowing proper napkin placement.
Sigfried can be a big damn hero based on his actions. People will sing songs about his greatness at saving people, and ladies will swoon when they witness his great deeds.
But he’s not very charismatic.
For all the complaints about “Charisma is underpowered” people seem awfully adamant to find ways to work around it despite clear rules saying what you can and can’t do with skills…
But no, you can't have a low charisma character be treated the same as a high charisma character. It is harder for the low charisma character to succeed socially. As it should be, regardless of if you have grey eyes or blue eyes.
This I disagree with, for the most part. It is like how some people are naturally good at sports while other people have to practice to be as good.
Will Sigfried ever be as good as someone with a higher cha, that puts forth the same effort? No. Can he be just as good if not better than someone who does not really try hard to make friends and get along with others, but happens to be have a decent to high charisma? Sure.
The low charisma character can get a charisma modifying item, same as a weak character can get a strength modifying item.
I gave an example of circumstances where Sigfried is well liked. Circumstances can overcome weaknesses of character, or vice versa.
But diplomacy doesn't make you dashing any more than linguistics makes you a genius.
It just makes you good at a specific type of social interaction.
Diplomacy is the skill used to get people to like you, network, negotiate and so on.
People that are dashing are well liked. If I am a good talker I don't see how I can't be dashing?"He is so dashing
He is so charismatic
He is so diplomaticOne of these is not a synonym.
Diplomacy does what the skill says it does. Expanding it would be like givinh a lift bonus for jump skill since it indicates great leg strength.
Dashing is just a flavor word for "good with influencing women". Since diplomacy does not differentiate between the sexes if you are good with people then generally you can be a lady's man. I would not give a bonus to using diplomacy against a character of the opposite sex just because the player says they are dashing though.
That does not mean an Ogre can get a lot of human girlfriends. He may be "dashing among his Ogre buddies, but not to another race". I just wanted to stop that argument before it started. Circumstances come into play at some points.Edit:Having a high charisma does not make you automatically dashing either.
Are we debating the word dashing or your statement of:
"But no, you can't have a low charisma character be treated the same as a high charisma character. It is harder for the low charisma character to succeed socially. As it should be, regardless of if you have grey eyes or blue eyes. "
Example: The rules for Initiative show us this. In the case of a tie, the one with the highest bonus, if that is a tie, use the highest ability score. Because overall, all things being equal, the one with the higher score is naturally better, and the other one is just trained. Sometimes training just can't match a natural knack for something.
Same could be done with Diplomacy. Two sides trying to sway the prince. All else is equal, they rolled the same number, they have the same +8 to diplomacy, but one has a 14 and the other a 7. Just like intiative, defer to the higher ability score. Natural talent wins over again.
If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll to determine which one of them goes before the other.That means if you've got a guy with a 16 Dex (+3) and a guy with a 10 Dex and Improved Initiative (+4) then the Improved Initiative guy goes first when they roll a tie. Otherwise, roll to settle ties.
You may have mis-bolded, or did you intend to correct my correct statement? I made it clear in both my examples that it was IF the bonuses were equal.
I acknowledge that it NO LONGER (from 3E) uses highest ability score, and instead goes straight to the roll AFTER equal bonus. I would suggest not selective reading, however, as I pointed out each time that it was only after total modifiers were equal that it went to highest ability score (and now see that was only in 3E).
Charisma is used by most DM's to make an initial impression such as who the NPC will talk to first. Diplomacy is the skill that I would think would be used to determine the lasting impression. I have met many people in real life that had I not gotten to know them I would never have paid any attention to. I have also met people who seemed initially likeable that I would not mind never seeing again.
I do understand that there are no rules for long term impressions, but I think repeated meetings which would be covered by diplomacy would be the way to go.
Good stuff
To me, it comes down to this.
Someone with an 18 CHA is naturally charismatic, they draw eyes just walking around, they are remembered. It's the sort of people that you stop and blink and then later standing around the water cooler you talk about.
Worker A: "Wow, I was at lunch and there was this girl at the restaurant."
Worker B: "Pig, what, was she wearing something skimpy or had big basooms?"
Worker A: "No! Nothing like that. She wasn't all that hot, not ugly mind you, but it's not like she was a porn star or anything. She was dressed kind of normal too, but... she just walked in, laughing, and every eye in the room was on her. I don't know what it was, it was like... well, she just was."
Now, someone who has a 10 CHA and has put 4 ranks into Perform and Diplomacy can act like someone with an 18 CHA... but that's just it, it's an act. It's not really them. Anyone doing a sense motive on such a person is going to know that they are acting charming, not being charming. Which in and of itself can be offputting to NPCs, to know they are being schmoozed.
Eril Flinn was a great actor and he could portray Black Beard in an awesome way. But he wasn't Black Beard. He was just a normal guy who had training and could pretend to be Black Beard really well.
NOTE: Not sure if Eril every played Black Beard, but you get the idea.
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Charisma is used by most DM's to make an initial impression such as who the NPC will talk to first. Diplomacy is the skill that I would think would be used to determine the lasting impression. I have met many people in real life that had I not gotten to know them I would never have paid any attention to. I have also met people who seemed initially likeable that I would not mind never seeing again.
I do understand that there are no rules for long term impressions, but I think repeated meetings which would be covered by diplomacy would be the way to go.
But the rule clearly shows that isn't what diplomacy does.
Why are you willing to expand the application of diplomacy beyond what it is described as in the rules, but be unwilling to have charisma govern exactly what the description says it governs?
Marrying you is a request (as is asking to become intimate with someone) -- changing someone's opinion of you is exactly what a charismatic individual does. Becoming friendly to someone else for a prolonged period of time is friendship.
These are the things that diplomacy specifically allows you to do.
Thus doing these things with diplomacy does make you more likable, more capable of getting dates (another request), make friends and influence people and improve their opinion of you.
Just like someone with a charisma of 20.
Besides by the theory that you can only do this with a high charisma why do people attack sorcerers? They should be instantly liked and asked on dates! After all people like them right?
Oh wait -- there is more to it than that. That's right you have to spend time and energy and become friends -- with diplomacy.
Thus doing these things with diplomacy does make you more likable, more capable of getting dates (another request), make friends and influence people and improve their opinion of you.Just like someone with a charisma of 20.
Besides by the theory that you can only do this with a high charisma why do people attack sorcerers? They should be instantly liked and asked on dates! After all people like them right?
Oh wait -- there is more to it than that. That's right you have to spend time and energy and become friends -- with diplomacy.
But you're putting words in people's mouths. It's not about when interaction has begun. It's about pre-interaction. At least pre-verbal interaction.
I don't expect 18 charisma to auto have friends. I do see the 18 charisma as being gravitated towards naturally. If a guy walks into the bar with an 18 charisma, chances are he'll come off confident and cool. Without trying. That's not diplomacy. It's charisma.
Now charisma 7 guy walks into the same bar. He may be one hell of a speaker and can make friends super-easily once he starts talking, but the first impression won't be the same. He won't give off the air of general coolness. Because coolness is charisma, not diplomacy.
Charisma is used by most DM's to make an initial impression such as who the NPC will talk to first. Diplomacy is the skill that I would think would be used to determine the lasting impression. I have met many people in real life that had I not gotten to know them I would never have paid any attention to. I have also met people who seemed initially likeable that I would not mind never seeing again.
I do understand that there are no rules for long term impressions, but I think repeated meetings which would be covered by diplomacy would be the way to go.
But the rule clearly shows that isn't what diplomacy does.
Why are you willing to expand the application of diplomacy beyond what it is described as in the rules, but be unwilling to have charisma govern exactly what the description says it governs?
I am not trying to expand it officially. That is why I stated there were no rules for it along with the rest of that post. If you wish to get a lady's attention in the game it takes a conversation which is covered by diplomacy. She will most likely start off as indifferent, and might move to helpful. Charisma alone does not cover such interactions. If a guy can go into the bar and leave with a companion I would think he was dashing even if I thought he was ugly. He might not be the first guy to bet looked at, but a head start is pretty useless if you don't win the race.
But you're putting words in people's mouths. It's not about when interaction has begun. It's about pre-interaction. At least pre-verbal interaction.
I don't expect 18 charisma to auto have friends. I do see the 18 charisma as being gravitated towards naturally. If a guy walks into the bar with an 18 charisma, chances are he'll come off confident and cool. Without trying. That's not diplomacy. It's charisma.
Now charisma 7 guy walks into the same bar. He may be one hell of a speaker and can make friends super-easily once he starts talking, but the first impression won't be the same. He won't give off the air of general coolness. Because coolness is charisma, not diplomacy.
That is not what myself or Ashiel is trying to say though. We are saying that guy with ranks in diplomacy can be very likable even if he does not make head turn when he enters a room. I agree that upon entering a room the person with charisma makes the initial strong impression, but by the end of the night the person with the highest diplomacy check has made the most friends or at least acquittances.
It would be like a guy walking in and the lady thinking he was dork(maybe he dresses funny). He says something wity, which is a part of his 1 minute diplomacy check, then she is laughing with him, then she is looking forward to having him around.
That is not what myself or Ashiel is trying to say though. We are saying that guy with ranks in diplomacy can be very likable even if he does not make head turn when he enters a room. I agree that upon entering a room the person with charisma makes the initial strong impression, but by the end of the night the person with the highest diplomacy check has made the most friends or at least acquittances.
It would be like a guy walking in and the lady thinking he was dork(maybe he dresses funny). He says something wity, which is a part of his 1 minute diplomacy check, then she is laughing with him, then she is looking forward to having him around.
I can pick up what you're putting down. The issue is that there isn't anything for charisma in that case, is there? If every time you talk it's diplomacy, then charisma is a useless ability.
I think what ciretose is saying is this:
Charisma governs all social interaction that is not actively diplomacy, bluff, or intimidate. Therefore, if you are not lying, scaring, or doing one of the very explicitly outlined facets of diplomacy, then it falls to a default charisma check.
Asking a woman out is diplomacy, random bar chatter with no end goal in mind is charisma. Maybe you get some good information out of that random chatter, but you weren't trying to?
I'm grasping at straws with that last sentence. Admittedly, I want charisma to do something fundemental.
It's not about when interaction has begun. It's about pre-interaction. At least pre-verbal interaction.
Well put, exactly this. No one has said anyone/thing with high Chr is automatically liked.
Say an all human party (of 2 Ftrs and 2 Wiz) enters an all human town that has never heard of them, and both the locals and the mayor need help. Before the party has done anything more than walk toward the inn, who do the townspeople approach? Who does the mayor approach? and why?
Ftr 20 Str, 8 Chr
Wiz 20 Int, 8 Chr
Ftr 16 Str, 12 Chr
Wiz 16 Int, 12 Chr
EDIT: Memory you are on it, that is what most of us pro Chr are saying. That unless you are actively using tthe social skills to accomplish the exact things that those skills allow you to do, then you default to Chr.
I don't think anyone has a problem with the idea that Charisma should govern magnetism, and who approaches who, and initial reactions, and leadership, and all that kind of stuff.
What people have an issue with is that, with the exception of the Leadership feat, there are absolutely no mechanical rules whatsoever for doing all of those things that people are agreeing that Charisma should be able to do.
Fact. The brief description of a skill does not always entail everything that skill can be used for within the rules. This is provable WITH DIPLOMACY because it says nothing about improving the attitudes of people, or making them friendly, or the like in the very brief description. However, the very first thing Diplomacy does...
Check: You can change the initial attitudes of nonplayer characters with a successful check. The DC of this check depends on the creature's starting attitude toward you, adjusted by its Charisma modifier. If you succeed, the character's attitude toward you is improved by one step. For every 5 by which your check result exceeds the DC, the character's attitude toward you increases by one additional step. A creature's attitude cannot be shifted more than two steps up in this way, although the GM can override this rule in some situations. If you fail the check by 4 or less, the character's attitude toward you is unchanged. If you fail by 5 or more, the character's attitude toward you is decreased by one step.
You cannot use Diplomacy against a creature that does not understand you or has an Intelligence of 3 or less. Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future. Any attitude shift caused through Diplomacy generally lasts for 1d4 hours but can last much longer or shorter depending upon the situation (GM discretion).
Oh look, something it didn't mention in the brief description of the skill.
Likewise, argue as you might, this is the only rules governing befriending or influencing NPCs to speak of. You keep falling back to "But the description of Charisma says", but what does the description of Charisma DO? Nothing. Not a darn thing. It isn't even very clear.
So, we're working with what we've got. As written, Charisma does nothing but modify things based on it. Just like Strength modifies your carrying capacity, so too does Charisma modify your social interaction. However, more than just strength are used to determine Carrying Capacity, including your size, shape, and so forth.
What people have an issue with is that, with the exception of the Leadership feat, there are absolutely no mechanical rules whatsoever for doing all of those things that people are agreeing that Charisma should be able to do.
Bingo.
Thanks Kirth. My table recently added your charisma to will saves wisdom to ranged attacks rule.
Not that we had any particular problems, just it made sense for all 6 abilities to have mechanical benefit beyond skills.
It's not about when interaction has begun. It's about pre-interaction. At least pre-verbal interaction.Well put, exactly this. No one has said anyone/thing with high Chr is automatically liked.
Say an all human party (of 2 Ftrs and 2 Wiz) enters an all human town that has never heard of them, and both the locals and the mayor need help. Before the party has done anything more than walk toward the inn, who do the townspeople approach? Who does the mayor approach? and why?
Ftr 20 Str, 8 Chr
Wiz 20 Int, 8 Chr
Ftr 16 Str, 12 Chr
Wiz 16 Int, 12 Chr
Likely the first one they come to, as last I checked, NPCs do not have a metagame view of someone's character sheet.
When my characters walk up to someone, I don't say "Hey, what's this guys Charisma?", I speak with him and then when the GM responds [i]"Who the 'ell are you?", and I think "Eh, either this guy is having a bad day, or he's kinda rough around the edges..."
I call metagaming at its worst.
Likely the first one they come to, as last I checked, NPCs do not have a metagame view of someone's character sheet.
When my characters walk up to someone, I don't say "Hey, what's this guys Charisma?", I speak with him and then when the GM responds [i]"Who the 'ell are you?", and I think "Eh, either this guy is having a bad day, or he's kinda rough around the edges..."
I call metagaming at its worst.
I believe he was talking about a DM controlled mayor.
DM's cannot, by definition, metagame.
Fact. The brief description of a skill does not always entail everything that skill can be used for within the rules.
So you're saying that it is the case with skills, but the same is not true of ability scores?
I say, the brief description of an ability score does not always entail everything that ability score can be used for within the rules.
When my characters walk up to someone, I don't say "Hey, what's this guys Charisma?", I speak with him and then when the GM responds [i]"Who the 'ell are you?", and I think "Eh, either this guy is having a bad day, or he's kinda rough around the edges..."
I call metagaming at its worst.
It wasn't who do the PC's approach, it's who do the NPC's approach.
It isn't even "metagaming" on the DM's side of things. Charisma is visible people with charisma exude it in hundreds of non-verbal ways, without having to say a word.
Charisma is visible... people with charisma exude it in hundreds of non-verbal ways, without having to say a word.
Can you quote the rules on how to adjudicate that in-game?
Unfortunately, there aren't any. And THAT'S the real issue, to me.
I can pick up what you're putting down. The issue is that there isn't anything for charisma in that case, is there? If every time you talk it's diplomacy, then charisma is a useless ability.
I think what ciretose is saying is this:
Charisma governs all social interaction that is not actively diplomacy, bluff, or intimidate. Therefore, if you are not lying, scaring, or doing one of the very explicitly outlined facets of diplomacy, then it falls to a default charisma check.Asking a woman out is diplomacy, random bar chatter with no end goal in mind is charisma. Maybe you get some good information out of that random chatter, but you weren't trying to?
I'm grasping at straws with that last sentence. Admittedly, I want charisma to do something fundemental.
The charisma check is what could be used to get someone's attention of to present yourself in a certain manner. Maybe you want to appear as an imposing figure.
Example:Artemis Entreri was in a bar, and one of the smaller guys. Even though this was true nobody dared mess with him, and the bar was known for being getting beat up at times. --From a novel.
Charisma is visible people with charisma exude it in hundreds of non-verbal ways, without having to say a word.
From my last post I see that we agree.
Charisma is visible... people with charisma exude it in hundreds of non-verbal ways, without having to say a word.Can you quote the rules on how to adjudicate that in-game?
Unfortunately, there aren't any. And THAT'S the real issue, to me.
Then again you have a point, but so I will say that maybe active uses of the ability such as a charisma check are needed to portray yourself in a certain way. After all the other abilities require active ability checks so why not charisma.
After all the other abilities require active ability checks so why not charisma.
That would allay about 90% of my concerns right there.
Just like the rules say, when an act isn't covered by anything else, use the ability score modifier. That's what it falls under in the rules.
Then again, that was in 3E, I don't know if they got rid of that rule too.
Just like the rules say, when an act isn't covered by anything else, use the ability score modifier. That's what it falls under in the rules.
Without any guidelines, that's not real helpful. We all agree Charisma should represent magnetism. The question is on how to reflect that in the game. Saying "roll a Cha check and the highest check is the most magnetic!" still doesn't leave us with usable rules. (That's like saying "roll a fighting check and the highest check is the most fightiest!")
A system of mechanics would need to be hashed out -- it's not a one-sentence solution here.
Likely the first one they come to, as last I checked, NPCs do not have a metagame view of someone's character sheet.
When my characters walk up to someone, I don't say "Hey, what's this guys Charisma?", I speak with him and then when the GM responds [i]"Who the 'ell are you?", and I think "Eh, either this guy is having a bad day, or he's kinda rough around the edges..."
I call metagaming at its worst.
I believe he was talking about a DM controlled mayor.
DM's cannot, by definition, metagame.
Heck yeah they can. GMs can metagame worse than anyone else. Google that junk and you'll find lots of threads and stuff about bad GMs and their metagaming. That's a fine example. The GM is expected to not metagame just like players are. GM knowledge and NPC knowledge are just as separate as Player vs PC knowledge.
So you're saying that it is the case with skills, but the same is not true of ability scores?
Do you read? Maybe I'm the one with the literacy problem here. Could you perhaps show me where I said that NPCs can see people's skill modifiers? That'd be great, thanks.
In both cases, interaction is required. Preconceptions, I've seen in reality, are generally based on clothing and wardrobe, style, and stuff of the like. Interestingly, if you wanna argue that Charisma affects that, I'd like to note that you can change your clothes. I'd also like to note that wearing normal clothing provides a -2 penalty to Charisma based skills (Diplomacy, Bluff) when dealing with nobility (see equipment, nobles clothing), or that being well dressed or wearing something that gets attention (see parade armor) provides a +2 bonus to Charisma based skills (Diplomacy, Bluff).
It seems that one side is arguing for some mystical interaction that happens before interaction. Sorry, first impressions are important, and yet you do have to make an impression first.
I say, the brief description of an ability score does not always entail everything that ability score can be used for within the rules.
Agreed, and yet, it doesn't mean it is used that way. House rules are house rules.
Removed posts and their replies—please be civil to each other.
When my characters walk up to someone, I don't say "Hey, what's this guys Charisma?", I speak with him and then when the GM responds [i]"Who the 'ell are you?", and I think "Eh, either this guy is having a bad day, or he's kinda rough around the edges..."
I call metagaming at its worst.
So never in all your playing have any your characters ever entered a location with a group of people in it and asked the GM something along the lines of "Who looks like the one in charge?"
Or do you instead wait until you have talked to all of them and it became apparent?
Likely the first one they come to, as last I checked, NPCs do not have a metagame view of someone's character sheet.
When my characters walk up to someone, I don't say "Hey, what's this guys Charisma?", I speak with him and then when the GM responds [i]"Who the 'ell are you?", and I think "Eh, either this guy is having a bad day, or he's kinda rough around the edges..."
I call metagaming at its worst.
I believe he was talking about a DM controlled mayor.
DM's cannot, by definition, metagame.
I disagree. Is a GM supposed to tailor encounters to make the game fun, of course.
When every bad guy has iron will, or has a brooch of shielding to stop certain spells he is metagaming. Don't take the word "every" literally.
It really means a really high percentage in this case.
Another example is if the PC readies an action, and GM makes sure to avoid it, not because he would have done so anyway, but because he changed his tactic based on what the player told him.
There are more and better examples posted around here.
When my characters walk up to someone, I don't say "Hey, what's this guys Charisma?", I speak with him and then when the GM responds [i]"Who the 'ell are you?", and I think "Eh, either this guy is having a bad day, or he's kinda rough around the edges..."
I call metagaming at its worst.
So never in all your playing have any your characters ever entered a location with a group of people in it and asked the GM something along the lines of "Who looks like the one in charge?"
Or do you instead wait until you have talked to all of them and it became apparent?
Asking who is(who appears to be) in charge is not a bad question. At that point the GM can tell you what everyone's actions are. If one person happens to be doing more talking than working he is probably in charge. At that point you approach that character to see if you are correct.
Asking the question does not mean I expect the GM to say NPC C is in charge.
Asking who is(who appears to be) in charge is not a bad question. At that point the GM can tell you what everyone's actions are. If one person happens to be doing more talking than working he is probably in charge. At that point you approach that character to see if you are correct.
Asking the question does not mean I expect the GM to say NPC C is in charge.
Much the same as the mayor when the PC's enter town, he may assume the the guy that looks like the leader by the presence of air he has and the way he carries himself is the one to talk to. But after he approaches the PC that looks like the one in charge they instead say "Talk to [gruff fighter's name] he runs the show".
If the PC's enter a room of toughs, no one is talking no one is working, they are just standing around watching the PC's. If you ask them who's in charge they may point you in the wrong direction to mislead. So to aid you, you also ask the GM to tell you who "looks" like they are the boss.
I'm not saying you ask and he says, this one has an 18 Chr, or this one is in charge. But he can still feed you non-verbal clues. Some of which are governed by Chr.
But you're putting words in people's mouths. It's not about when interaction has begun. It's about pre-interaction. At least pre-verbal interaction.I don't expect 18 charisma to auto have friends. I do see the 18 charisma as being gravitated towards naturally. If a guy walks into the bar with an 18 charisma, chances are he'll come off confident and cool. Without trying. That's not diplomacy. It's charisma.
Now charisma 7 guy walks into the same bar. He may be one hell of a speaker and can make friends super-easily once he starts talking, but the first impression won't be the same. He won't give off the air of general coolness. Because coolness is charisma, not diplomacy.
Show rules for first impressions or they didn't happen.
Nothing states that charisma has any impact on first impressions or a party full of bards, paladins and sorcerers would probably never have to fight a thing.
GM: "The mayor approaches your group, and asks, are you the mercenary company they call the Ironguard?"
Player 1: "I tap *insert player 4* on the shoulder. Hey, there's someone here askin' about us."
Player 4: "I turn and introduce us. Hm? Oh, yes, that is us indeed. What do you need?"
Or maybe...
Player 1: "Hey, does anyone in this slave den look to be the leader?"
GM: "Well there are seven large men that seem to be guarding the room, as well as three beautiful women and a strong young man, who are likely to be on today's auction. In the corner is what appears to be another slave, who is standing next to the largest guard who is wearing plate mail and is watching the operations.."
Player 1: "Ok, I bet the guy in full-plate is the boss. He definitely seems the strongest."
Player 2: "I dunno, maybe that would make him a bodyguard?"
Player 3: "Hmmm, I'd like to make a Sense Motive check?"
Player 4: "Actually, can I use Perception to see if I notice anything odd?"
GM: "Go for it."
*Checks are rolled.*
GM: "It seems that the slave girl next to the heavily armored warrior seems a bit too comfortable. You notice that she's cleaner than the other slaves, and smells a bit too much like perfume for a mere handmaiden. You have a hunch she might actually be the brains of the outfit."
Player 1: "Hmmm, ok, let's try it like this then...I'd like to walk up to the guy in the armor and introduce ourselves, and then see if I can pass along some innuendo to the maiden, and see if she reacts."
GM: "Ok, I'll need a Bluff check. What kind of message are you trying to convey?"
Player 1: "Hmm, how about that I'm looking for the brains of the outfit, because I'm here to discuss business in private?"
GM: "Fair enough. Though it might just sound like you're hitting on her if you biff this roll. *chuckles*"
Player 1: "Nice, a win/win situation."
Player 2: "Yeah, unless she's the big guy's girlfriend and he puts you up for auction."
*OOG laughter for all.*