and to think i built a wingless, divinely empowered, espada wielding, swashbuckling, loli, angel out of an aasimaar cleric. reflavored the rapier and tweaked the dervish dance feat. tailored domain choice accordingly and i customized her stats to taste. she had no god of choice. and used mostly buffs.
if she were a cleric of anything. she would be a cleric of the concepts of purity and charity.
ever seen Zorro, Robin Hood, or The Iron Monkey? these make good examples.
i had to tweak a few minor rules, but she was quite fun.
As I said, to each his own. To me you have gods powering clerics or you do not.
Incidentally...
"In faith and the miracles of the divine, many find a greater purpose. Called to serve powers beyond most mortal understanding, all priests preach wonders and provide for the spiritual needs of their people. Clerics are more than mere priests, though; these emissaries of the divine work the will of their deities through strength of arms and the magic of their gods. Devoted to the tenets of the religions and philosophies that inspire them, these ecclesiastics quest to spread the knowledge and influence of their faith. Yet while they might share similar abilities, clerics prove as different from one another as the divinities they serve, with some offering healing and redemption, others judging law and truth, and still others spreading conflict and corruption. The ways of the cleric are varied, yet all who tread these paths walk with the mightiest of allies and bear the arms of the gods themselves."
"More than capable of upholding the honor of their deities in battle, clerics often prove stalwart and capable combatants. Their true strength lies in their capability to draw upon the power of their deities, whether to increase their own and their allies' prowess in battle, to vex their foes with divine magic, or to lend healing to companions in need.
As their powers are influenced by their faith, all clerics must focus their worship upon a divine source. While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)"
"A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn from the cleric spell list presented in Spell Lists. Her alignment, however, may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see chaotic, evil, good, and lawful spells. A cleric must choose and prepare her spells in advance.
...
Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time when she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation."
"A cleric's deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to her deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if her alignment matches that domain. If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval). The restriction on alignment domains still applies."
Well that's what the book says. So yeah, I guess gods don't grant clerics their spells. Instead, they influence clerics and thus their spells. A cleric who follows a deity must be within one alignment axis of her deity, presumably to be aligned with the object of her faith.
So you could entirely have a world with both philosophical and theological clerics, and they may or may not be in conflict with each other. I guess that depends on their agendas. They wouldn't immediately be conflicting any more than merely having different religious beliefs. However, you could have lots of fun concepts and conflicts as such.
So I guess gods don't power clerics, merely influence them.
Nor do I However as neither have cleric classes that cast spells its kinda a non issue.
Not really. We're playing an RPG, but we have to look at real life to fill in the holes. We can see that spirituality and religion is varied in real life, and there's no obvious reason why this should not be so in the RPG-worlds as well. Especially since the rules not only tolerate, but actually support such opportunities.
First off I did not speak condescending manner to anyone. And such philosophy are fine but they do not grant you the same power a divine being would. And no its not that much diff then belief the color green is the base of all life. You just think one is crackpot but under the idea that faith and belief in Bushido makes ya a cleric so the same belief and faith that green is the beginning of all life does the same.
Fair enough.
No it does not in FR Gods are powered by faith evil gods would hunt down upstarts trying to ascend to godhood by self faith and the crusades to whip out your corruption would be huge. the same the godless end badly upon death. Besides the fact you MUSt have a god in FR
Heh, humorously this means Clerics have the power that the gods need. One could say that it is in fact the clerics and their agendas that give the power to the gods for their agendas. Funny that. Also, the story I mentioned, to my knowledge, is endorsed by the license holders of the FR campaign setting, so make of that what you will.
Again point to the one with a real spell casting cleric, also ya know evein with spells to back them up wars have been fault over "those people" wrong teaching and heresy.
Which is entirely the point. :P
Once more this is solely about the cleric class, and shamans would gin power from something anyhow.
Shaman is just a term for a spiritual leader. You're merely arguing semantics which is good for no one. Shaman, Acolyte, Bishop, Cult Leader, High Priest, Reverend, Templar, Cleric, they're just names. It's what they do that determines them. Clerics have divine magics. That's pretty much their thing. They're the iconic divine casters, and they're made to be versatile enough to cover any kind of religious leader.
Our "Shaman" is actually...
A 4th level Cleric of Animal and Community. Tada!
He wears big thick skins, and carries a big glaive, and heals the tribesmen with the "gaze of the ancestors" (we call this Channel Energy: Positive). His philosophy or beliefs are focused on the family and the natural world. Go-go-clerics!
i know, the idea of worshipping the color 'green' as the source of all life sounds ridiculous, but i'm sure Ashiel (or anyone else on these boards who wishes to do so) can turn it into a working concept.
Egad, you've tempted me. ^.^"
Incoming conceptual nonsense!Children of the Divine Green
Along the edge of an old forest, where the river forks and flows upstream, there lies a small temple that is cut from green limestone, with a bubbling fount made of jade in the center of the garden-like courtyard. Within this temple lies the Children of the Green.
Donning the Emerald Green robes lined with a golden trim, the children of the green have dedicated their lives to healing the travelers who come near the ancient forest, and teaching people not only the importance of life, but the importance of respecting that life. Clean water flows through many small fountains and ducts within their temple, and small bushes and trees dot their temple. Its stone walls almost completely covered in moss and ivy.
According to the tenants of the faith, all things begin with thought and sound, and all conceptual things are tied together. They believe that color is connected to the mind and soul, for powerful colors invoke spiritual reactions. As blue brings serenity and calm, red emotion and vigor, white purity and freshness, black mystery and the unknown, and so forth. They believe that when the world was created, it began as a concept of colors, with green being the color of life, the most sacred and beautiful of concepts.
Their priestly vestments are long, and flowing, and have hidden meanings. Most of their clothing have prayers in celestial woven into them with the golden threads that hold the robes together. The gold, like the green, in their clothing represents both the divine essence and the life-bringing warmth of the sun's glow. While they do not worship plants, they see trees to be embodiments of life that sustains life, and thus many of their robes will often be dotted with patterns resembling leaves or trees with countless branches.
The Children of the Green have a very relaxed opinion of other religions, and avoid conflict. They feel that their actions and love of life is all that it takes to show others the way, and surely that seems to be true. The majority of the Children of the Green voluntarily joined after their lives were saved, and their wounds healed so readily. The Children of the Green do not typically charge common folk for healing, as they are very self sufficient (though they accept donations).
The Children of the Green believe in a philosophy of life, centered around the feeling that the color green invokes when someone gazes upon it. Some of the highest elders suggest that the the truest understanding of the sacred green can only be understood by those who are born blind, for when they feel the essence that green invokes, then they truly see the truest essence of the color through the eyes of the spirit, as it was in the creation.
Major Tenants and Roleplaying Considerations
1) Children of the Green avoid killing. They will fight in self defense to preserve their holy life, but they prefer nonlethal damage. Most take the Pacifist trait (See Below).
2) Children of the Green are not restricted by their alignment, but most are good because of their love of life. It is difficult to remain evil while being a member of the Children of the Green, as most are selfless and altruistic by nature, though some that call themselves Jade Witnesses are often touched by the taint of undeath (see below).
3) Children of the Green typically choose from the following domains: Life, Healing, Community, Animal, Plant, Sun, and Water. Jade Witnesses sometimes choose the Darkness and Death domains.
4) Most Children of the Green choose the Quarterstaff, Unarmed Strike, or Longbow as a favored weapon. Jade Witnesses sometimes choose various swords (generally the longsword or scimitar).
5) Most Children pray in the morning. Most Witnesses pray in the evening.
Sub-Sect: Jade Witnesses
Officially part of the Children of the Divine Green, Jade Witnesses are a small collection of disciples of the tenants who have had a brush with death. Its roots run back to high priestess of the order seven generations prior to today. After a near death experience, she said she saw the holy color that divides life and death, as the green fades to blackest mystery. It was after this revelation that she was able to call upon the powers of undeath, and formed the Jade Witnesses. Most Witnesses have had near death experiences, and openly declare themselves both Children of the Green and Witnesses of the Jade.
Jade Witnesses often reside in the temple alongside their Children brethren, and seem to take great pleasure in roaming the gardens, and keeping their feet wet in the streams that course through the temple. In the back of the temple, they have the Sanctuary of Jade, which is shaped like an aviary, with the canopy of trees and vines being grown inward as they rise. This natural shrine is tended by undead servants controlled by the witnesses. The witnesses spend their time meditating here on the convergence of the green and the black, of life and mystery.
Jade Witnesses are fewer in number than their Children counterparts, but hold many of the same tenants. Like the Children of the Divine Green, they too are pacifists. Unlike the Children, they spend countless hours in rigorous combat training, and often practice with slender longswords or scimitars, and emphasize control over the deadly weapons for both offense and defense.
Jade Witnesses guard the Temple of the Green and their brothers the Children of the Green, from outside threats. Having already brushed so closely to death, and living on the borders of life and death spiritually, they feel an increased dedication to protecting the life held sacred by the order.
Pacifist (Trait)
You have a knack for controlling your blows, to protect life.
Benefit: You suffer no penalty for choosing to deal nonlethal damage with a weapon. In addition, you can deal precision damage (such as sneak attack) when doing so.
Normal: You take a -4 penalty when attempting to deal nonlethal damage with a normal weapon, and you cannot deal sneak attack damage.
To me ya just moved some goalposts. You said shaman not a cleric, so if it is of the cleric class it would have to have some being grant it's power. If you are using a shaman class it does not fallow the same rules {although it prob still has some being giving it power).
Also not sure what FR story you are talking about.
And you are incorrect about how a cleric works by Raw, if the god just helps then he could never cut them off. As they can in fact be cut off from power by their god, then the Gods more then just help a bit.
Anyhow do as ya like. To me you can not have both clerics must having a god and clerics not needing a god. Its one or the other not both. This is how I run my homebrews and has been the case with every published setting I liked {FR,Darksun, Eberron and Golarion} Always one or the other not both.
If ya wish to rule it otherwise, well more power two ya.
To me ya just moved some goalposts. You said shaman not a cleric, so if it is of the cleric class it would have to have some being grant it's power. If you are using a shaman class it does not fallow the same rules {although it prob still has some being giving it power).
Also not sure what FR story you are talking about.
And you are incorrect about how a cleric works by Raw, if the god just helps then he could never cut them off. As they can in fact be cut off from power by their god, then the Gods more then just help a bit.
Anyhow do as ya like. To me you can not have both clerics must having a god and clerics not needing a god. Its one or the other not both. This is how I run my homebrews and has been the case with every published setting I liked {FR,Darksun, Eberron and Golarion} Always one or the other not both.
If ya wish to rule it otherwise, well more power two ya.
How meta-gamey are you, my friend? I did say Shaman, but in the context of a cleric. That was plainly clear. Are you suggesting that to call something a Shaman, it must mean that it uses a different class? So you must use a different class to represent "Medicine Man", "Priest", "Healer", "Theurgist", or "Shaman"?
Do you know that the word "Cleric" is a bit off kilter for what the D&D class would suggest?
As for the story, it's found in the Baldur's Gate game by BioWare, and endorsed by the license holders of D&D and the Forgotten Realms, in a book detailing the history of Bhaal and a couple of other deities. It is one of several books that are in the game solely for the purpose of entertainment and introducing players to the Forgotten Realms lore.
Finally, there's nothing that says that deities can cut clerics off from their divine power. Not a thing. I already quoted the relevant parts. The closest thing is the notation that a cleric who "grossly violates" their deity's code of conduct loses their class features, but can apparently pick another deity. Just that they can't gain power from that faith (but are you really faithful if you grossly violated your tenants?).
It does say that deities influence them, however. It doesn't actually say their power comes from the deities. But then again, once again, it doesn't have to, because we can see that divine magic does not require the gods to use (adepts, druids, paladins, rangers, etc).
I'm 100% cool with campaign exceptions, but that's all they are.
I am still at a lose on what ya mean about the FR story but eh whatever.
Metagamey ? You said shaman, you also said adapt and druid and all kinds of classes. None of which are the topic.
You can call it what ya want but if it uses the cleric class then ya it would have to have a god. Take FR, ya can call your PC a shaman but if he uses the class of cleric he would have to have a god, or could not be that class.
Divine magic does not always need a god. The cleric class however does. You are a priest.
Kinda that simple.
I also disagree on gods not being able to cut you off, if ya violate your faith he can strip your powers. However if you did not think ya did but your god did, how could he cut you off if he does not grant your power?
As we know they can strip your powers, then yes they must grant them.
I already quoted that clerics do not have to worship deities. It's in the books. I guess that means, as it is, then it's both. Clerics of deities can lose their powers for grossly violating the tenants of their faith, while clerics without deities don't.
Anything else is a variant.
Well ya kinda hard to violate a tenet ya made up. With no overseer like eberron ya can do what ya want with no drawback at all.
Kinda hard to fall from grace with no power to take it away as long as ya keep your faith, no matter how twisted that faith becomes.
My objection is ya can't mix and match and make sense. You have a world where anyone with faith can have power of a cleric {eberron} or ya have one where being grants that power {Golarion,FR,Athas)
As I have said a few times now, if some folks like to mix and match, eh whatever. It is not a flavor I myself Like or use however.
Also I found your Children of the Divine Green write up niffty.
Actually, it is auto-assumed. No where does it say that the option is up to your GM, only to work with your GM with it, and that the which domains you pick is subject to GM approval.
I edited that out, because really everything is subject to GM approval honestly :)
But if it must state to work with or ask your Gm if ya can first it is not assumed ya can.
Why would a player prefer to have his cleric worship a concept?
I’m curious thanks.
"There is no flesh and blood within
this cloak to kill. There is onlyan idea.
And ideas are bulletproof."
Maybe it is the loss in your devotion to your faith that strips you of your powers. Obviously if you are breaking tenets your faith has dropped, for if you were confident and persevering you would not have committed the wrong.
It make sense to me that if your faith powers you, and you act outside of that faith that your powers would fail.
Even though it is not written I think that would apply even to those that worship concepts because at some point you are only giving lip service to it, and that is not enough.
I don't think so myself. I mean ya could be totally nuts and believe 100% you are doing the will of your god. Why would your faith ever waver?
We have all seen the religious nutjobs that have faith a plenty, twisted insane faith, but they believe it with ever fiber of their being. With no higher power to step in, how could they ever fall?
Why would a player prefer to have his cleric worship a concept?
I’m curious thanks.
"There is no flesh and blood within
this cloak to kill. There is only
an idea.And ideas are bulletproof."
Unfortunately, or not, depending, the people who believe in them are not. I'm having a cynical day...
I don't think so myself. I mean ya could be totally nuts and believe 100% you are doing the will of your god. Why would your faith ever waver?
We have all seen the religious nutjobs that have faith a plenty, twisted insane faith, but they believe it with ever fiber of their being. With no higher power to step in, how could they ever fall?
The cleric can say to himself "I had to break tenet X, but that is different from actually believing they never broke tenet X. The only way that happens is if the person has a very loosely defined code which can easily be handled by saying anyone with a loose code not being able to have the (can't think of a proper word) to ever gain any powers.
As an example if a player wants to worship virtue they should be able to be specific about it, since virtue to one person may not be virtue to another. A list of can and can not's would be needed, not just saying I worship virtue.
crazy cleric: Yeah so what if I stabbed that old lady. I just saved her from a long suffering death. Look at how virtuous I am.<------Does not fly.
edit:add crazy cleric
I do not think you can without endless conflict between the two.
And we certainly wouldn't want a game world full of potential conflict, would we? :)
@wraithstrike, I am gonna have to disagree. IF Your belief is what is power, as long you keep it and can renationalized it in some way you can never lose your power.
How can you say any justification will not fly when there is no one to cut that cleric off? His justification, no matter how far fetched or weak is all that counts as long as he really believes it. He has no one to answer to at all, just himself.
@ Slaunyeh, it really depends upon the world you want to play in. A place where both gods power clerics and belief of anything powers them, really needs to be though about long and hard as it will effect many things, both current and the history of that world, its gods, nations and cultures.
Take Golarion for example, allowing concepts clerics vastly changes the history and current political map as well as some nations would be stronger or may not existent at all. Not to even talk about the new faiths that would pop up based on concepts.
If you just throw it in there without really thinking how it will effect those things, it fails to make any sense to the setting and adds nothing while taking away from the setting.
@wraithstrike, I am gonna have to disagree. IF Your belief is what is power, as long you keep it and can renationalized it in some way you can never lose your power.
How can you say any justification will not fly when there is no one to cut that cleric off? His justification, no matter how far fetched or weak is all that counts as long as he really believes it. He has no one to answer to at all, just himself.
@ Slaunyeh, it really depends upon the world you want to play in. A place where both gods power clerics and belief of anything powers them, really needs to be though about long and hard as it will effect many things, but current and the history of that world, its gods, nations and cultures.
If you just throw it in there without really thinking how it will effect those things, it fails to make any sense to the setting and adds nothing while taking away from the setting.
There is a difference between believing you are worshipping the power and actually doing so. My point which I am having a hard time explaining is that believing it and doing it must both take place. I am not advocating belief alone grants you the power. I am sure that staying true to the cause was an intent of having a concept instead of a deity. I wish it would have been stated though. If you by the book that you can claim a source and do what you want then I agree it is a silly thing to do, but in an actual game, which is what matters I don't know of any GM's that would let that go over.
I need for someone who is a better speaker than I to say what I am trying to say.
I agree it should not work that way and I would not allow it. But it is what it is.
Coarse I dislike the whole concept of godless clerics. If ya want to play a godless divine concept, plenty of other classes fill that role. The oracle was crafted for that role.
I agree it should not work that way and I would not allow it. But it is what it is.
Coarse I dislike the whole concept of godless clerics. If ya want to play a godless divine concept, plenty of other classes fill that role. The oracle was crafted for that role.
What about Oracles that prepare spells and have domains instead of curses and mysteries? :)
I did not think you were going to change your mind, but I had to try.
No you will not change my mind. I do not feel that clerics should be able to just be concept clerics at all. But if they are then they should not be clerics of real gods with in the same setting. I do not feel the two are compatible.
But ya always have inquisitor, bard, oracle or a dozen other classes that could fit the character concept of faith based caster with no ties to a god. If ya want to play the cleric class, pick a god. If ya want to play a concept then use the class that fits best, not the one that does not.
Cherry picking powers and domains are not really character concepts, they are builds :)
No you will not change my mind. I do not feel that clerics should be able to just be concept clerics at all. But if they are then they should not be clerics of real gods with in the same setting. I do not feel the two are compatible.
But ya always have inquisitor, bard, oracle or a dozen other classes that could fit the character concept of faith based caster with no ties to a god. If ya want to play the cleric class, pick a god. If ya want to play a concept then use the class that fits best, not the one that does not.
Cherry picking powers and domains are not really character concepts, they are builds :)
Cherry picking is different than choosing a domain for concepts. A player might end up with two crappy domains.
edit :)
Eh could be, but every time I have ever seen the concept cleric {on and off line} it was pure cherry picking.
Honestly though its not cherry picking or power gaming I have the issue with. It just flavor and the fact that no real thought seems to ever go into settings with both concept and god fueled clerics.
A fact like you do not need gods to have clerical powers is not something that should be hand waved as not a big deal. As it has far reaching effects.
If you can gain clerical divine powers from a concept, then how do you end up with powerless "false gods" like the golden mask guy in Golarion?
Golarion is a setting that does not allow concept clerics. But the core rules do allow for such. Settings always overrule the core rule on such things.
If you can gain clerical divine powers from a concept, then how do you end up with powerless "false gods" like the golden mask guy in Golarion?Golarion is a setting that does not allow concept clerics. But the core rules do allow for such. Settings always overrule the core rule on such things.
SS is correct, and to add to that I have yet to run a Golarion campaign. The concept idea is from the core book which is campaign neutral. SS has his own campaign world IIRC.
From someone who has played a cleric that has worshiped an ideal and has GM'd likewise clerics i can give you actual reasons and not just opinion on the matter. while you could use it as a reason to pick your features for power play this has never been the case with me or my player.
A lot of the reason is freedom. Clerics have strict beliefs they adhere too and clerics of a deity are expected to uphold there religion. While i have liked some of the beliefs that some clerics of deities have i never liked the completeness and lack of choice. I never completely felt my character should be molded by a deity. i think a character should be molded by the player. I also liked the idea of not being a slave to a deity. I am my own power so to speak. The player I GM'd for also liked the idea of being his own power. A prophet who's direction in life was only known to him and beyond even the gods eyes. I also didn't like the idea of being tied to a faith. When i play a RPG i want to adventure. I don't want to be obligated to have to go running back to town for prayer on holiday X, to spread the word of my god, to be forced to undertake this quest because the GM is using my faith as a crutch etc. Now i'm not saying that that sort of thing isn't for some people, but i shouldn't be forced to play that way just because i want to play a cleric.
My character had a very general faith. To just be, spread, and adhere to goodness and to confront and eradicate evil and wickedness. Yeah it's vague but it has a bigger place than ANY specific diety in any campaign! It also had it's own limitations and faith.
And i also agree with an earlier poster who said clerics of a concept don't gain a favored weapon, the rules do say clerics that worship a deity gain that. Since I had no deity it also meant i couldn't use diety specific magic items. What i got in return was more freedom and the ability to pay homage to multiple gods that matched the ethos of my faith.
There's been a lot of argument about where a cleric gets his powers and it really doesn't matter WHERE he draws them from. He gets them because it's on his CLASS LIST!
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Well this thread has produced some lively debate, which is a good thing. I haven’t had time to read all 128 posts, but thank you all for your thoughts.
Lazer x thank you for sharing another reason why people would prefer to have their character worship a concept- namely freedom. Freedom from a god, or “slavery” as you put it, and freedom from religion freedom from faith. If you are your own source of power you don’t have to worry about owing anyone anything, if I understand things correctly.
The nice thing about this game is that we as GMs can shape the worlds we create as we wish.
We can decide for ourselves whether gods grant spells, whether the spells come from the individual etc.
We can mold a campaign world as we see fit to match our own tastes.
While I may have my own preferences, I realize the game has to take in a wide variety of preferences. I would prefer the text of the rulebook or SRD allow for a wide variety of possibilities.
Personally I dislike the idea of “worshiping” and drawing power from a concept. It is something I would not allow in one of my home games, because, I think there is so much more that can be done with gods and that pesky religion idea, then a mere concept.
I think that playing a cleric means that your character is then part of something larger then himself, and serving something larger then himself, in this case an entity of some sort. In my opinion this is part and parcel with being a cleric. The spells and divine power your character receives, after praying or meditating, is in effect part of your character’s reward for service.
In my opinion if you don’t like the whole service idea, there are plenty of other classes you can play. If you don’t like the organized religion, or want to be free of the serving of one god (or entity be it ancestor spirits, nature spirits etc) but would prefer to serve something broader you have the Oracle. Heck the oracle has been chosen by the gods and given spells whether she likes it or not.
If you want to be your own power, well there is the Sorcerer or Wizard. You don’t have to bargain with anyone for your magical might. Either its in your blood because of some fantastic source, or you have wrestled what you know from long hours of study, what power you have is yours to do with as you please.
But then again those are simply my opinions, and I’m not going to tell someone else how to play or run their game.
Thank you all for sharing your opinions. I have asked for them. I have also deliberately asked for opinions from other peoples points of view, a point of view and opinion other then my own, because simply put, I didn’t know why people would want to have characters worship a concept. Now thanks to the thoughts you have shared I do.
Again thank you for your thoughts.
Why does she have to preach anything, or perform religious ceremonies to be a cleric? She taught, she learned, she observed, and that was her religion - to experience and help others experience. Not every cleric has to go out preaching the word and their beliefs.This is how I understand being a cleric. Almost everyone has faith in something, and things s/he/it believes in. Clerics by definition (as in, members of the clergy) not just have a faith - they exemplify and spread it. It is basically what I think the world means. A clerics isn't just a follower of a faith, but a leader of that faith. This is why imo FFG would more likely be an ardent than a cleric, and why ardents are better for the idea of "champion/cleric of a concept" - they believe in something so hard that they can alter reality even if that thing is simply a concept with no further power of its own.
Curious how Fall From Grace doesn't fit into this description.
1. Her beliefs were strong enough to turn her away from her nature as a demon and change her alignment.2. She has founded a temple (the brothel) to her beliefs, servicing hundreds of patrons.
3. She has a dozen accolytes following her teachings and helping her spread her beliefs.
Really at the end of the day I have to boggle at anyone who's adamantly against having a sense of mystery in their setting. I mean shoot, a person who has divine magic but uses it differently from much of the rest of the world? Where you see "LOGICAL PARADOX" I see "Incredible gold mine of narrative opportunity!"
I think this is the first time I agree with you entirely. I can think of at least a half dozen ways of working this type of cleric into even a restictive setting like Forgotten Realms, and they all add to the game and give the player more than he would otherwise have.
If the definition of god means a being worshiped and venerated than the Silver Flame fits the bill. If it's not the same "kind" of being as one usually associates with a D&D god, the designers still saw fit to put it on the same list as other deities, although not one of the pantheons as it is a singular class by itself.
But in Eberron any cleric of any faith can still go off the rails and retain their powers, because NONE of the deities in that world police their representatives.
No, they can go off the rails as Eberron has no gods. The silver flame is a prison people happen to put craploads a faith into as it is a cool silver fire. There are no gods in the plans, there is no heavily afterlife for those gods faithful. No being living or dead has even saw or talked to one that anyone can recall.
Eberron is a pure concept faith setting.
If the definition of god means a being worshiped and venerated than the Silver Flame fits the bill. If it's not the same "kind" of being as one usually associates with a D&D god, the designers still saw fit to put it on the same list as other deities, although not one of the pantheons as it is a singular class by itself.
But in Eberron any cleric of any faith can still go off the rails and retain their powers, because NONE of the deities in that world police their representatives.
No, they can go off the rails as Eberron has no gods. The silver flame is a prison people happen to put craploads a faith into as it is a cool silver fire. There are no gods in the plans, there is no heavily afterlife for those gods faithful. No being living or dead has even saw or talked to one that anyone can recall.
Eberron is a pure concept faith setting.
"No being living or dead has even saw or talked to one that anyone can recall" does not mean that they do not exist. Please consider the implications of your words.
I'm sure many clerics probably see it differently. Commune or Contact Other Plane is probably often seen as intervention or guidance from the divine, right?
In my Eberron Campaign Setting book, I'm pretty certain it doesn't say that the gods don't exist. I am pretty sure that it says they're mysterious, and I'm pretty sure it says there's no proof as to whether they exist or not. No proof != Doesn't Exist. It means they aren't proven to exist.
So I guess it's up to the GM as to whether he wants Gods to be fictitious, made up, or in between (some gods are real, some aren't, etc). However, they Eberron also has some of the best deity-lore in a single campaign setting that I've seen.
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Well ya kinda hard to violate a tenet ya made up. With no overseer like eberron ya can do what ya want with no drawback at all.
Kinda hard to fall from grace with no power to take it away as long as ya keep your faith, no matter how twisted that faith becomes.
My objection is ya can't mix and match and make sense. You have a world where anyone with faith can have power of a cleric {eberron} or ya have one where being grants that power {Golarion,FR,Athas)
As I have said a few times now, if some folks like to mix and match, eh whatever. It is not a flavor I myself Like or use however.
Stop using ya if you are going to use it in two contexts like you did with your first sentence (yeah for the first and you for the second) it makes it hard to understand what you're trying to say.
Eh we'll have to agree to disagree as by everything written the gods do not exist with in the current setting at all. People within the setting do not know if they are real or not, But from a game perspective they are not there Not on the planes and not on Eberron. They are not distant, they are completely absent.
They have no contact with the planes, no contact with the planet and the immortal demon lords have never seen or had contact with one.
They are concepts, nothing more. Which makes sense as if ya can worship a concept really, what is a god that has never had any contact with the universe you inhabit but a concept?
@Lastknight, sorry my grammar bugs ya man.
@Lastknight, sorry my grammar bugs ya man.
LOL - I see what you did there. ¬_¬
Because gods can and will die. Remember the poor clerics of Maanzecorian when Orcus did him off? whatever becomes of clerics if their Big Guy drifts on the astral? They loose their cleric abilities, unless they jump ship. On the other hand not even the Lady of Pain can kill the concept of Valor or Disease, for example.While I'm certainly no expert on Planescape, I've got a strong memory of some concept like "belief is reality", that if belief in something is strong enough, that it's real. I think it COULD be possible for the Lady to kill valor or disease, though maybe not easy, through getting people to unbelieve those things (or through believing their bodies can't be harmed by things such as diseases).You really can't kill an idea, but you can forget it. You can't forget things like disease though, because someone is suffering one somewhere. You can, however, change how some people think of an idea. Back in the day diseases were an act of God and could be cured if a person's humours were balanced. Nowadays, we believe diseases stem from living organisms that live inside of us. To say one is diseased in the 15th century, then say it in the 21st century, would be catering to totally separate ideas, but using the same vocal sounds to create meaning.
There again, both versions of disease talk of sick bodies, so they could be strikingly accurate. Its hard to change the meaning of something so painfully rooted in humanity.
Well, my point wasn't that you can kill a concept IRL, it was that it might be possible in Planescape due to the weird nature of the setting. My main contact with it was through the computer game Torment set in it, and even the computer game was weird. There was a situation in the very beginning of the game, where all trees in the whole city where dying because no-one cared for them. That is literally, not that they didn't get watered but because people didn't think about them very much. You could actually make the trees better through thinking about them. If I remember correctly,
In Planescape, belief is reality. If enough people think germs cause sickness - germs cause sickness. If enough people think it's an act of a god of disease - then there is a god of disease causing them. That was my point, that if enough people believed disease didn't exist (just like how we believe Santa doesn't exist), then it would cease to exist (and maybe even cease to ever have existed).
I think that playing a cleric means that your character is then part of something larger then himself, and serving something larger then himself, in this case an entity of some sort. In my opinion this is part and parcel with being a cleric. The spells and divine power your character receives, after praying or meditating, is in effect part of your character’s reward for service.
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but here is where we differ in opinion. In the cleric i played i would say he was a part of something greater than himself, even more so than a cleric who is devoted to a deity. Serving the greater good of demihumankind dedicated to a cause and not a deity. Deities have there own desires, ambitions, and a means to manipulate and control those to do there will. Clerics of deities can also get caught up in there faith and faithful and neglect the greater cause of overall goodness and willingness to help all people of goodness equally who do not share there faith. My character had no such politics and organizations to get in his way and distract him from his faith. He often worked with multiple religions and clerics if it served the greater good.
As for an actual entity, all people of goodness are an entity. we all know that many gods in multiple campaigns meddle in the affairs of man and often times a lot. Who's to say that there aren't other gods that don't meddle, don't make there presence known, and so people dont even know they exist. MY character could have been granted his powers by an actual god that nobody knows even exists because thats how that god prefers it. Just because you can't see him, he doesn't have a name in the corebook,doesn't make his presence known, and isn't an official god, doesn't mean there aren't forces out there like that. Who's to say there isn't a pantheon of greater gods that just don't make there will and presence known. i kind of feel sorry for those who actually refuse to except that. Is your imagination of fantasy that limited that you can only imagine what a rulebook writes out for you?
If thats just how you want to run it in your campaign thats fine, its your campaign. Buts it's completely different to say "i don't think your playing it right, or it makes no sense, you should just play this class instead, or thats not how it should work." All that does is try to put limits on the imagination, and whats the point of that in a fantasy game?
yeah there is the inquisitor, paladin, sorcerers, and the oracle- now but just because somebodies character concept doesn't fit your mold you shouldn't push somebody into another class just because it don't suit YOUR idea of the class and how it should be played. If a player wants to play a light armored fighter who fights with simple weapons should he be pushed to play a rogue? Or if a player wants to play an intellectual sorcerer who reads ancient tomes and studies magic he has to be a wizard? If a player wants to be a rogue who doesn't even steal a thing but wants to be an outdoors scout or woodsmen does he have to be a ranger? After all a cleric can worship a nature deity and revere nature and the natural world, why is the option there if we have the druid?
good stuff
Some GM's have a certain view on their world, and either it fits or it doesn't. I have always left enough of any campaign world I used open enough to allow something extra in.
I don't know Golarion that well so I will have to find a place or create for races that don't exist by the rules. As for conceptual classes(normally 3rd party) I will probably say they are very rare, or the player might just be the only one.
Eh we'll have to agree to disagree as by everything written the gods do not exist with in the current setting at all. People within the setting do not know if they are real or not, But from a game perspective they are not there Not on the planes and not on Eberron. They are not distant, they are completely absent.
That's simply not true. But do feel free to point out where in the Eberron setting it is explicitly stated that the gods do not exist.
That's simply not true. But do feel free to point out where in the Eberron setting it is explicitly stated that the gods do not exist.Eh we'll have to agree to disagree as by everything written the gods do not exist with in the current setting at all. People within the setting do not know if they are real or not, But from a game perspective they are not there Not on the planes and not on Eberron. They are not distant, they are completely absent.
He feels that since the gods don't physically show up they are no more than concepts. Either a world can have you worshipping concepts or deities, but not boths. A fine house rule, but nothing more.
Personally, what draws me to worshiping a concept is that I get to exercise my own creativity rather than following the bland paragraph in the setting book; with one exception, every cleric I've ever played as been a concept cleric, rather than a deity cleric. I really enjoy the idea of fashioning my own religious background, something unique to my characters perspective.
Plus, with few exceptions, I find most deities to be, frankly, boring. The gods of Galorian bore me to tears. My least favorite is Sarenrae, because she is a sun deity; if you've seen one sun god, you've seen them all. Concepts give people like myself options; if not for concepts, I'd never play clerics.
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Eh we'll have to agree to disagree as by everything written the gods do not exist with in the current setting at all. People within the setting do not know if they are real or not, But from a game perspective they are not there Not on the planes and not on Eberron. They are not distant, they are completely absent.
They have no contact with the planes, no contact with the planet and the immortal demon lords have never seen or had contact with one.
They are concepts, nothing more. Which makes sense as if ya can worship a concept really, what is a god that has never had any contact with the universe you inhabit but a concept?
@Lastknight, sorry my grammar bugs ya man.
For the record it didn't bug me at first because I was equating ya to you so when I saw that sentence where you used it for both contexts I had to read it several times before it sunk in. I don't mind people using ya and ain't etc. I just ask that they be consistent with their usage.
He feels that since the gods don't physically show up they are no more than concepts. Either a world can have you worshipping concepts or deities, but not boths. A fine house rule, but nothing more.
I wouldn't call that an invalid interpretation, either. I was reacting to the statement that it was written explicitly in the Eberron setting that the gods don't exist. It is not. It was left vague by design.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The thread is kind of funny for me.
When I played Shadrach (LE Psychic Warrior) in Greyhawk, his long term plan was godhood. He knew enough to know that many deities were ascended mortals, and figured 'why not me?' (anyone want to guess what his sin was?)
His best friend in the party was a NG cleric of St Cuthbert, who he liked and respected. He felt 'sorry' for her though, that she would shackle herself to another being. If we'd not lost Dorothy to a heart attack, Shad was going to try to get her to become an Ur Priest. ("Why beg for power, when you can take it?")
So... Could one worship a concept of divine ascention? :-)
I wouldn't call that an invalid interpretation, either. I was reacting to the statement that it was written explicitly in the Eberron setting that the gods don't exist. It is not. It was left vague by design.
He feels that since the gods don't physically show up they are no more than concepts. Either a world can have you worshipping concepts or deities, but not boths. A fine house rule, but nothing more.
That is my point. He is saying that by his logic that is the rule. He was not stating it as an opinion.
Now I know that in the core rule book, a cleric can worship a concept such as Valor, instead of a god like Iomadae, or Perfection, instead of Iorori, or Darkness, instead of Zon Kuthon.
Why would a player prefer to have his cleric worship a concept?
Is it just to get divine spells without having to worry about “pesky religion”? is it just for meta-gaming reasons so a player can pick two domains for their powers?
I’m curious thanks.
I did have a character based on a concept. Devoted to the concept of True Neutral Death Deity...he was short-lived, though he's tended to live longer as an NPC, so far he's not lasted long though.
While there is something to question about domain cherry picking versus what is given, which might be a risk in pathfinder, I'd still argue for the option of bringing in one's loosely defined concept of a deity...or a precise one, or just a valid concept (no deity) that isn't covered explicitly in the RAW pantheon- or necessarily the DM's, though that helps.
Example of weird:
I found myself recently reinterpreting a relatively devout character. I based it on a character I played in a home brew game, using some tenets of St. Cuthbert, the 3.5 deity- particularly the points of faith elucidated by Sean K Reynolds' Core Beliefs Dragon article, I saw this character as a twist on the Core Belief's article and a doppelganger of sorts to a previous character devoted to St. Cuthbert (and largely based on the article).
Now, the character is more aptly defined by nearly worshiping an actual song (Retribution Gospel Choir's - Destroyer)...
Geth the Protector (of Korvosa) is devoted to the concept of Retribution with some of Cuthbert's symbols- though a mixed bag of Lawful to Neutral deities...Abadar primarily, but including Nethys since they grant the domains he used in 3.5, mostly Nethys, Destruction and Protection. Those happen to be snappy powers, yes, but they fit the character even after conversion. And while Nethys is cool, just not the character.
Though, I will add one point I ignored with this concept based character...favored weapon= Mace. Sure, St. Cuthbert of the cudgel is all about the mace (or club), but few deities in Golarion use maces. Which, sure, were notably the generic Cleric Weapon, but can I help it if I like the Heavy Mace Cleric?
Point is, the generic or non-generic cleric benefit from a concept approach as much as a core deity based approach. In as much as it reflects the quality of the roleplay and doesn't break the game (Domains are not built to be game breaking in combination, but I could imagine the designers matched domains to complement each other more than non-deity specific cherry-picking would enforce.
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I think that playing a cleric means that your character is then part of something larger then himself, and serving something larger then himself, in this case an entity of some sort. In my opinion this is part and parcel with being a cleric. The spells and divine power your character receives, after praying or meditating, is in effect part of your character’s reward for service..
but here is where we differ in opinion. In the cleric i played i would say he was a part of something greater than himself, even more so than a cleric who is devoted to a deity. Serving the greater good of demihumankind dedicated to a cause and not a deity. Deities have there own desires, ambitions, and a means to manipulate and control those to do there will. Clerics of deities can also get caught up in there faith and faithful and neglect the greater cause of overall goodness and willingness to help all people of goodness equally who do not share there faith. My character had no such politics and organizations to get in his way and distract him from his faith. He often worked with multiple religions and clerics if it served the greater good.
As for an actual entity, all people of goodness are an entity. we all know that many gods in multiple campaigns meddle in the affairs of man and often times a lot. Who's to say that there aren't other gods that don't meddle, don't make there presence known, and so people dont even know they exist. MY character could have been granted his powers by an actual god that nobody knows even exists because thats how that god prefers it. Just because you can't see him, he doesn't have a name in the corebook,doesn't make his presence known, and isn't an official god, doesn't mean there aren't forces out there like that. Who's to say there isn't a pantheon of greater gods that just don't make there will and presence known. i kind of feel sorry for those who actually refuse to except that. Is your imagination of fantasy that limited that you can only imagine what a...
RunebladeX, first my apologies for getting your name wrong. I now realize I referred to you as Lazer X.
Let me just start by laying out my initial assumptions about players who picked playing clerics who worshiped a concept over a deity. My first assumption was that they were “min maxing” that they were simply interested in what power they could get for their character by cherry picking domains. My next assumption was that they were lazy, and for whatever reason, they didn’t want to deal with any religion stuff, or more specifically any god. “Lets just roll up this wretched cleric character, and say right he worships good, and ok I can start healing you guys just tell me when. “
I have gotten varied responses on this thread, and over all, and some responses, yours in particular, has led me to re examine my assumptions. Perhaps there is more to worshiping this concept idea then a lack of imagination.
Yes we do differ in opinion, but that is not a bad thing. Perhaps we are not as far apart as we think.
In response to your post, while I quite agree that serving the greater good of “demihumankind” to be serving a cause greater them ones self, I don’t think serving a deity (this of course would depend on the deity) would in any way hinder a character from doing the same. While yes it is true that deities have their own means and desires to manipulate and direct things, not all deities do. Some prefer to let the mortals under their care make their own choices.
Also within a faith, you are going to have a wide range of attitudes. I think in one of my earlier posts on this thread, I copied and pasted, and answer to an earlier thread where I asked, how could the church of Sarenrae co exist with slavery. James Jacobs wrote a very interesting reply.
As for the idea that there might be a god or gods, who doesn’t want to meddle, nor particularly wishes to make his name known, I have no problem with that idea, in my own home brewed worlds, the neutrally good aligned gods prefer to help without meddling, and encourage mortals to make their own choices. They go about things through example rather then evangelism.
In short it sounds like the clerics you play are very similar to the NG clerics I often play. The ones I often play are disinterested in politics, in accruing power, in dogma, in orthodoxy. What they are interested in is helping others, regardless of their respective faiths. Usually one of these clerics find the migratory life style of an adventuring cleric, to be much better suited to their desires to help others, to do good, to leave the world in a little better way then when they found it, rather then settling into a community and becoming mired in politics.
Now as to your suggestion my imagination is limited by what is placed in a rulebook, I think we really do differ there. The things I read in a rulebook and other source books are but a beginning framework from which to expand. I find they are more seeds for ideas rather then bars to imagination. I specifically started this thread because I was curios about other peoples point of view, so I asked.
In terms of character creation, I usually encourage my players to start without a rulebook. I usually prefer them to start with a character concept, do they want to do a swash buckler, do they want to do Indiana Jones, do they want to do the Bourn Identity, Sherlock Holmes. Then I try to see how the rules in the game might best express their idea for a character. I encourage my players to try and create characters that cut across the grain of the usual fantasy stereotypes. So in the case of someone who wants their character to be a swashbuckler, I try to find out, whether a fighter a rogue or a bard would best express what they have in mind. If someone wanted to play a scout, I would ask them first what they have in mind, before suggesting ranger, rogue, or inquisitor. I happen to like the idea of a sorcerer who is a sage, and also a sorcerer who is a diplomat, or perhaps a leader and maybe a ruler.
That being said, as a GM I do think I have some say in what sort of characters can be in my game. I may not want evilly aligned characters in my game; I may not want a half giant, with the “monkey grip” feat, who can wield the equivalent of a sharpened steel telephone pole.
As GMs, if we are going through the trouble and creative process of creating a world, then we are setting the base lines up. Is there one god, many gods, what is their relationship to each other, what is their history? Is there a creation myth, what is it? Are there more then one creation myth? Is the world flat round or on the inside of a donut? Are there tectonic plates? If yes where are the Tectonic plates? What are the continents, where are they? Where are the climatic zones? Where are the mountain ranges? Where do the rivers flow over the continents? Do they flow from the mountains to the sea? Are there exceptions, namely has a river been there longer then a mountain range, so it cuts through it? What are the oceans, and their currents? Where did civilization begin? What races were involved? Have there been layers of civilization? How did one rise and fall? Did the pantheons rise and fall? What are the secrets buried in the past. Are there some areas of the world more “civilized” then others. What is the cosmology of the world? How does magic fit in? What is the nature of the gods? How do they relate to mortals? Can mortals become gods? Etc. What nations are there, what relationship do they have to each other? Etc. How is alignment interpreted? Like a strait jacket? Is an alignment mealy tendencies? Are orcs evil? Are there exceptions? I guess I feel the cosmology is often the GM’s preview.
To sum things up, I encourage some input from players, I decide some things for myself, and in terms of character creation, while I encourage my players to come up with interesting characters of their own creation, I do feel I can set some parameters. One of the parameters I feel I can set is the nature of the cosmology, and a clerics roll to both society as a whole and his relationship to the gods.
While I prefer clerics who worship a deity, you have showed me some interesting reasons why one would prefer a cleric would worship a concept such as good and how “religeon “ could get in the way of doing “good” in the world. Thank you.