Aye, he's repeating the same arguments.
They need heavy cavalry! Except they fight in forests where heavy cavalry is useless. Yeah, makes sense to have useless troops.
Enemies can spend craploads of money giving out haste potions...or the elves can have one of their many mu/5's cast it or use a wand. Substantial leverage.
The orc, ogres and trolls are naturally strong, but also naturally lower-level, because they rely on that strength and aren't as smart.
Tournaments of martial arts have nothing to do with lances. eesh. Archery tournaments, fencing tournaments, spellcasting tournaments.
Rich but fragile. Emphasis on rich. At any time they have the money to go out there and buy what they want, but they refuse to be reliant on an outside economy, and thus are immune to trade embargoes. Sounds like something damn smart to me. And lo, imagine if they start not having food. Maybe they'll apply that +2 Int and just starve to death...or maybe they'll spend a couple years actually growing more food so, like, they can eat.
Yeah, trying to harpoon something at 200 meters that they can't even see. That'll work. But hey, a level 2 warrior can make that -60 Perception check, no sweat.
An intact body is not required for Resurrection, only a small fraction of it. Even Disintegration is not enough. He's coming back.
Oh, and somehow you managed to loot him before all his killers were ganked. Great, now you're carrying around his magic items, perfect for Scry/Locate Object focusing on so you can be tracked with ease, ambushed, and killed.
Fireballs in a wet forest have 0 chance of starting a forest fire. And remember, thousands of spells to those long-lived elven casters. Maybe they just use a cold variant, or acid, or whatever.
Human industry vs elven quality. Looks like the elves are winning in the wealth hunt to me. They certainly ain't looking to buy tons of low made human goods. They just have high quality elven goods, and accumulate them over the centuries.
Hundreds of years old. Time to accumulate wealth and magic items. Oh, let's ignore that fact, too. And the time leverage/productivity of knowing magic. Again.
And naturally, you have a complete list of all the elven feats, spells, and magic items to compare to what humans have accomplished. Sure, you do. Are all those feats you noted regional only feats, or just feats? Because unless they are specifically tied to a race or people, elves can learn them, and probably knew them five thousand years ago.
Aldori sword lord. Will save spell. Coup the dominated sword lord. Next!
C'mon, dude. You just aren't making any sense.
Are you saying that an Orc/2 against an Elf/2 can probably kill him in melee? I'd have to agree. Can an Orc/2 beat an Elf/4 or 5? highly unlikely if the elf is not an idiot. Such an elf is a decent match for an Ogre, and with planning and luck can take out a troll. And the elf doesn't have to play the orc's game, and seldom does.
==Aelryinth
Like you say, he's repeating his argument, so why not just leave it alone and let him rant to the air instead of giving him an audience? You're as likely to convince him he's wrong as you are of convincing a conspiracy theorist the moon landing really did occur.
The forest issue and elves, let's deal with this first. Is the forest dense, and thus an impediment to cavalry, visibility and long-range sight and shooting? Or is it a forest with a lot of clear ground, walk-ways, the possibility of nice long shots, good visibility, and something that cav could be used in as they can charge, or move around the few trees and attack?
You can't have it both ways. If the cav can't work, if it is so dense, messy and impeded, then the shots made within the forest are done close, visibility would be terrible with or without low-light since trees, briars etc are in the way. The dense forest is difficult terrain, which slows advance or withdrawal or man, elf or steed. If it is dense like a jungle then no-one within it is engaging from long range. Cover also prevents ranged sneak attacks from being used by either side.
This is why I have been saying, if the Kyonin woods are so thick, the longbows potential of brilliant range (on an open battlefield) gets drastically reduced. Shots have to be taken at 30,40, closer if there is mist or smoke. At 30, both sides may still have cover, may have to get to within 20 to avoid this detriment to shooting. Reprisal is right there.
And, as according to the rules, if you shoot at a target from stealth and attempt to pull back and hide, its at -20.
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at
least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged
attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take
a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your
obscured location (Core p. 106).
On druids striking from river-banks against barges, how did the druid do this 600+ foot inside the forest, when line of sight inside only extends to 30? If he is on the riverbank and can see the barge, he is a target. He too can cast a spell, snipe, hide behind a tree. Also at -20.
"Are all those feats you noted regional only feats, or just feats? Because unless they are specifically tied to a race or people, elves can learn them, and probably knew them five thousand years ago."
Actually most of them pertain to regional feats and regional specialties. The elves don't have it all or know it all. You will notice on regional feats it does not say, "specific to said region with a regional affinity requirement, but also allowed for all elves."
"Fireballs in a wet forest have 0 chance of starting a forest fire. And remember, thousands of spells to those long-lived elven casters. Maybe they just use a cold variant, or acid, or whatever."
Well, I get that its a forest but is it always wet? It sure isn't going to rain every day so unless druids burn all the spell slots they have with conjuring water and sprinkling it over the vegetation which is ALOT, there is a good chance of fire actually spreading. On the note on using cold variants or acid to extinguish the flames, depends how large the fire has become. Magic is powerful but so are the natural elements.
"Human industry vs elven quality. Looks like the elves are winning in the wealth hunt to me. They certainly ain't looking to buy tons of low made human goods. They just have high quality elven goods, and accumulate them over the centuries."
Once again, the assumption of elven superiority. It says their goods are highly sought after not the most highly sought after. With humans, with their varied nature, which nation or city is being compared to the elves may not necessarily pale in comparison. It might not even be about humans. It could be dwarves, gnomes etc. Elves have highly skilled experts but they are not the only race.
"Hundreds of years old. Time to accumulate wealth and magic items."
Indeed, time to accumulate wealth. Plenty of time. If they were adventuring elves, this would definitely be the case. No question about it. Problem is they are not. They patrol the forest which they have tamed how many millenia back. They stay within Kyonin. Patrol the borders. Elves which get too close to the borders and associate with shorter-lived races are looked upon more warily. Some get out but most rarely do.
"And naturally, you have a complete list of all the elven feats, spells, and magic items to compare to what humans have accomplished. Sure, you do. Are all those feats you noted regional only feats, or just feats? Because unless they are specifically tied to a race or people, elves can learn them, and probably knew them five thousand years ago."
Regional feats or otherwise, anyone can learn them. This is true. The thing about certain feats is that it requires certain exposure. While the elves may be ancient and claim to be culturally superior, this is not generally the case. For example, Sort of difficult to imagine an elf learning the mounted combat feat since there no mention of them riding. Yes, the assumption that they would "know it all" is just another really long stretch. Far too long since no race in my opinion knows everything and has learnt everything. Even the book mentions that they (the elves) haven't "seen it all".
"Aldori sword lord. Will save spell. Coup the dominated sword lord. Next!"
Another common mistake. The assumption of magic trouncing melee. Seen it happen many times in games and players end up having their spellcasters killed because they under-estimated the enemy fighter/swashbuckler etc. Even worse if he decides to just stand in front of you and hold actions,waiting for the mage to cast. If the mage slayer feat is in his feat list it could get even worse. So many ways it could go wrong.
"Are you saying that an Orc/2 against an Elf/2 can probably kill him in melee? I'd have to agree. Can an Orc/2 beat an Elf/4 or 5? highly unlikely if the elf is not an idiot. Such an elf is a decent match for an Ogre, and with planning and luck can take out a troll. And the elf doesn't have to play the orc's game, and seldom does."
With combat, it may not go exactly to plan. At times,it doesn't matter how well you plan. If you don't know certain crucial aspects of your foes they may be able to counter your tactics. Its not necessarily about the elf being an idiot or not, luck could favor him or the enemy if they are equally matched. While the elf doesn't have to play the orc game, the orc does not necessarily play the elf game either.
I merely point out potential oversights and possible flaws in the elven way of life.I do not assume everything will go the way of the races who try and invade the elves. Neither do I assume everything will go the way of the elves despite being the defenders. You however, seem to assume this to be the case regardless who or what comes at them. This coupled by the fact that their abilities and tactics are flawless and cannot be countered. Come on dude. Take a more honest look at them. You're not makin much sense.
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I demand an elven village random encounter chart.
1 Archer guards running to village outskirts.
2 Archetects tending to a building or forming a road or path.3 Blink dogs and handler practicing and training.
4 Elder elf with ruling implement and small entorage.
5 Elf adventuing group preparing for a journey.
6 Elf children at play.
7 Elf couples picnicing and playing music.
8 Elf druid conversing with awakened animal companion.
9 Elf druid tending/shaping a tree.
10 Elf farmer collecintg food.
11 Elf herder with herd (trees, cats, butterflies, lambs, etc.).
12 Elf nobility and servants crossing the path.
13 Elf setting up an easel to paint a lake and landscape.
14 Elf suddenly appears (from teleportation or through magic portal).
15 Funureal procession with attending cleric.
16 Gardeners tending to a grove.
17 Group of young archers making their way to have a contest.
18 Human visitor being escorted by elf guards.
19 Invisible walking noted in nearby grass.
20 Streetside poetry reading with small crowd.
1 Awakened Animal
2 Blink Dog
3 Brownie
4 Cat
5 Cooshee
6 Deer
7 Drow Spy
8 Dryad
9 Elf (sorcerer, ranger, wizard, cleric, bard, gunslinger, etc.)
10 Elf guards
11 Fairie Dragon
12 Ghost
13 Grig
14 Human visitor
15 Lost dwarf
16 Nixie
17 Pixie
18 Sprite
19 Treant
20 Wasp swarm
Your arguments are that the elves can always be overcome, and be overcome easily, which also makes no sense.
A forest can be incredibly difficult terrain and offer not much impediment to archery.
And a -20 to stealth for being spotted works absolutely fine if your enemy can't see you at all because of the darkness!
Why should the druid have to cast from within the forest? He can be concealed behind shrubs 600' away when he casts his spells, upstream, downstream, whatever. You aren't going to see him.
Did I say elves were the only ones making high quality goods? No? But the fact is they make higher quality goods, and people want them, and throw stuff at the elves to get them. This infers that elves make better stuff because they either a) take 20, because they have the time or b) are higher level and have more skill ranks/feats to put into their skills.
They also have a considerably more advanced and widespread use of low magic then any other society around.
oooo, oooo, NORMAL PEOPLE don't accumulate wealth over time, only adventurers! Right. Makes perfect sense. Why, I've got much less money then I had when I was younger, because I'm stupid and don't save, don't build up useful possessions that will last for centuries, and I don't like having effective weaponry and protections around. I'm dumb that way, +2 Int and all, with a demon lord living next door.
And haven't you noticed, 'race-only' feats are considered unbalanced and biased, and PF doesn't put them out. PrC's that are racial centric are opened up, including the Arcane Archer and the Dwarven Defender. Race-only stuff is a no-no, but regional only is fine because anyone can wander there and use it. So, of course you don't see a lot of elf-only stuff...every PC playing a human would scream in outrage! The fact that regional only stuff is humanocentric seems to have escaped this argument.
I'm not saying they're perfect, but your arguments aren't matching the facts at all, either, and furthermore, you're actively trying to present things in the worst light possible.
The facts are this:
The average elf is higher level then the average outsider PC/humanoid race. Probably level 5's against level 2's.
They have plentiful amounts of low magic.
They have an ancient spellcasting tradition more advanced then any human society on the planet. Thousands of spells!
They are rich. Which usually translates to 'very well-equipped'.
They are old and live a long time, and can afford to 'waste' ten to twenty years doing something boring like militia duty before settling down to do stuff they like. They've also seen it all before, or heard tales about it, and are probably just going to see it again.
They are extremely passionate, and this would carry over into the martial and magical arts as well as the mundane.
They all get some form of martial training. Every single one of them!
They are not reliant on outside trade for anything.
People want what they have to trade.
They can move around the continent with elf gates easily.
They don't mess with their neighbors, and have a severe dislike for being messed with themselves.
Long years give them more time to accumulate wealth and goods that help them accumulate yet more, a cascade effect made easier with prevalent low magic.
If they putter around in various fields, and still make high quality goods in those fields that people clamor after, that says something about how skilled they are and can get. It also means you've got a lot of cross-trained elves who can pitch in to help on something if there's real need...and they'll STILL be excellent at it!
I'd be really leery of messing around with any society where all the kids get trained to fight, and spend a short amount of time (10-20 years, an entire human generation) on something as boring as 'militia' duties, fighting off corrupted plants, demons, invading outsiders, and other boring stuff, before going off to play around at making better stuff then 95% of the artisans of other races bother to do.
==Aelryinth
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The facts are this:
The average elf is higher level then the average outsider PC/humanoid race. Probably level 5's against level 2's.
They have an ancient spellcasting tradition more advanced then any human society on the planet. Thousands of spells!
They are rich. Which usually translates to 'very well-equipped'.
None of these are true. I've played elves.
They didn't start with more money for being elves.
They didn't start with more spells in their spell books because 'elves have thousands of spells,' or have access to special superior 'elven magic' (save in the 2nd edition Realms).
They certainly didn't start at higher level because they were elves (and there's no indication that NPC elves are generally higher level than NPC dwarves or humans or orcs).
They have less skills (and one less feat) than an equally intelligent human, despite taking five times as long to mature.
The rules pretty much fly in the face of your claims. Elven NPCs don't use higher treasure types than NPC humans or dwarves. Elven NPCs don't have access to greater numbers of spells or thousands of special elven spells that human NPCs wouldn't have.
For every 100 year old elf that has learned his first level of Wizard, *a hundred* 20 year old humans have already been there, done that.
For every 150 year old elf that has become a true master of magic, dozens of humans will have done that in his lifetime, leaving behind their own crafted items, their own researched spells, and their own hundreds of apprentices. If anything, *humanity* would be the engine of magical innovation, since a human wizard can be learning time stop and making his own demi-plane and passing down his knowledge to his great-grandchildren while an elven child is still in short pants and is still struggling to grasp the heady concept of *cantrips.*
Yawn!
Dude, seriously, look at your argument.
Elves and humans at level 1 are basically the same, because they are adventurers. Fine and dandy.
We are talking about Kyonin elves, where the average elf is level 5, and average humanoids are level 2.
There is a HUGE discrepency.
Plus, the rules make NO allowances for having low level wealthy people. It's 'not possible'...yet it happens all the time 'in reality'.
They have the SAME skill points as an equal point buy human, because they are SMARTER. Don't forget that. You conveniently did. Humans put their points all over the place. All elves are smart. That means your average elf is smarter then 83% of all humans. Which is better at crafting, wizardry, and Knowledge stuff.
Elven NPC's in Kyonin can potentially learn 'thousands of spells'. It's why they look down on sorcerors. Says right in the book. Go check! And guess what? it's true!
And for every elven wizard who rose to great power, he's watched a hundred human wizards die, get slaughtered, crumble into the dust of old age, meaningless, forgotten, leaving nothing behind but attempts to grasp the power that the elves have possessed and passed on to their own for millenia. While the humans scramble and covet what the elves already possess, the elves look down at them and wait for them to grow up instead of killing each other, hoarding their precious knowledge so that it is lost to time when they die, fearful that every apprentice will slaughter them for the magic they've accumulated in Craft and Tome.
Yeah, them 'superior human wizards', them.
And what's even funnier, is any elven wizard at age 100 can get just as powerful by age 101 as any human wizard or any 500 year old elven wizard, too. It seems that leveling up is not restricted to humans, either! But, OH, EVERY human wizard is going to reach heights of power, and the elves can only sit back and watch in envy...except that most human spellcasters, like all NPC's, tend to stagnate by level 6, never accomplish much in life other then repetitiously casting the same spells over and over for coin, poring through books to try to get some understanding of events that the elves experienced personally.
Yeah, them superior human wizards and their wonderfully sharing personalities, them.
===Aelryinth
"The average elf is higher level then the average outsider PC/humanoid race. Probably level 5's against level 2's."
You weaken your point by saying 'probably' which indicates you don't know, and have no evidence. I want you to tell me where it says what you claim about the entire elven race? How did they all get to level 5? At what age is the average elf level 5--110? 180? You won't find it answered. Why is this the average when they start level 1 in whatever pc/npc class, just like any other race? Over and over in the main books, humans are presented as the most ambitious and driven, this is how you rise in levels the quickest. The elves are characterised as much the opposite.
Set is correct on the skill points and intelligence. Humans have choice in where their +2 ability bonus goes. If we are comparing level 1s, then a human who puts the stat boost into int is now as intelligent as the average elf, and with more skill points from first level and ever-onwards. The human also gets a free feat, which can be put into a craft or profession or knowledge focus to begin to jump far ahead of the elf in crafting, profession skill or area-specific knowledge. The elf can follow, but don't forget, elves are prone to generalising and it is rare to specialise and demonstrate a day-in day-out drive.
"And for every elven wizard who rose to great power, he's watched a hundred human wizards die,"
The elven wizard has stayed within isolationist Kyonin following the rules on how to learn spellcasting as his culture dictates (and taking over a hundred and fourty years on average to get to level 1). To see the outside world is a source of shame and embarrassment, he hasn't watched humans do anything unless he is unusually curious and quite the maverick.
On spells and spellbooks, Elves of Golarion made a spurious claim on elven wizards, but it is not repeated in any other material or the rules themselves. No elven wiz char starts with more spells known than a human wizard.
Set is only making a few points, but what he is saying is exactly backed up by the rules.
We can assume that that elves have a higher proportion of high-level characters because A) Kyonin is involved in regular military action, and B) any elf who has reached high level in the last millennium is, by definition, still around. When the greatest heroes of humanity have passed into legend, their elven counterparts are still fighting fit.
On b) Check the elven age categories, page 169 in core.
Elves
Middle aged at 175 years, 65 years after maturity. -1 to all physical, +1 to all mental.
Old age at 263 years, -2 to all physical, +2 to all mental.
Venerable age at 350 years, a further -3 to all physical stats, and +3 to all mental.
Their maximum age is 350+4d100 years, making the absolute oldest elf, by the rules, at 750 prior to death from old age. The range is from 354-750.
So you were saying they live for a millenia? You are incorrect. Once they get to 350, they are very much inhibited by their age (-6 physical). A standard elf who had a con of 9, at 350 now has a con of 3 (9-1-2-3), not the most stout of heroes. And very vulnerable to damage, disease, poisons, the failure of fort saves.
On a) Kyonin is involved in highly limited military action. The forests have been long patrolled, monsters would be very rare. Internal feuding, it is indicated, is absent and does not lead to a high amount of civil warfare. The invasions have not come, there has been the very small murder of tresspassers over the years, and the Razmiranian raiders have not been dealt with.
Elven travel and adventuring outside of Kyonin is also very rare for these isolationist proud people. But an elf that did get out there, could find many challenges to overcome, but they had best not start that when 263 or 350 years old.
"The average elf is higher level then the average outsider PC/humanoid race. Probably level 5's against level 2's."
You weaken your point by saying 'probably' which indicates you don't know, and have no evidence. I want you to tell me where it says what you claim about the entire elven race? How did they all get to level 5? At what age is the average elf level 5--110? 180? You won't find it answered. Why is this the average when they start level 1 in whatever pc/npc class, just like any other race? Over and over in the main books, humans are presented as the most ambitious and driven, this is how you rise in levels the quickest. The elves are characterised as much the opposite.
Set is correct on the skill points and intelligence. Humans have choice in where their +2 ability bonus goes. If we are comparing level 1s, then a human who puts the stat boost into int is now as intelligent as the average elf, and with more skill points from first level and ever-onwards. The human also gets a free feat, which can be put into a craft or profession or knowledge focus to begin to jump far ahead of the elf in crafting, profession skill or area-specific knowledge. The elf can follow, but don't forget, elves are prone to generalising and it is rare to specialise and demonstrate a day-in day-out drive.
"And for every elven wizard who rose to great power, he's watched a hundred human wizards die,"
The elven wizard has stayed within isolationist Kyonin following the rules on how to learn spellcasting as his culture dictates (and taking over a hundred and fourty years on average to get to level 1). To see the outside world is a source of shame and embarrassment, he hasn't watched humans do anything unless he is unusually curious and quite the maverick.On spells and spellbooks, Elves of Golarion made a spurious claim on elven wizards, but it is not repeated in any other material or the rules themselves. No elven wiz char starts with more spells known than a human wizard.
Set is only making a few points, but what he...
Excuse me.
A human who HAPPENS to put his racial bonus into Int is as smart as an Elf. the other 83% of humanity are stupider.Great, the human gets a free feat and buys a skill focus.
Guess what? The elves STILL make better stuff. In multiple crafts and disciplines. How could they possibly do that?
By having more skill points. From levels. It is the ONLY way possible.
It's already been pointed out that the average elves of Kyonin seen in product are level 6+. that's anywhere from 12 to 24 more skill points then a human, with a higher limit...and the extra feats at 3 and 6 neutralize the human bonus feat. And in addition to that, the elves all know some martial weapons and can actually fight reasonably.
Saying level 5 was being conservative. At level 6 'average', the elves are a feat ahead of average humans, tons of skill points, and can kick the ass of anything under the size of a troll fairly reliably. It explains their wealth quite easily, irrespective of their age, and justifies some extremely good equipment. And this is without the provisio of elves having PC class levels, instead of NPC class levels!
Your arguments are falling flatter and flatter, sir.
==Aelryinth
On b) Check the elven age categories, page 169 in core.
Elves
Middle aged at 175 years, 65 years after maturity. -1 to all physical, +1 to all mental.
Old age at 263 years, -2 to all physical, +2 to all mental.
Venerable age at 350 years, a further -3 to all physical stats, and +3 to all mental.
Their maximum age is 350+4d100 years, making the absolute oldest elf, by the rules, at 750 prior to death from old age. The range is from 354-750.So you were saying they live for a millenia? You are incorrect. Once they get to 350, they are very much inhibited by their age (-6 physical). A standard elf who had a con of 9, at 350 now has a con of 3 (9-1-2-3), not the most stout of heroes. And very vulnerable to damage, disease, poisons, the failure of fort saves.
On a) Kyonin is involved in highly limited military action. The forests have been long patrolled, monsters would be very rare. Internal feuding, it is indicated, is absent and does not lead to a high amount of civil warfare. The invasions have not come, there has been the very small murder of tresspassers over the years, and the Razmiranian raiders have not been dealt with.
Elven travel and adventuring outside of Kyonin is also very rare for these isolationist proud people. But an elf that did get out there, could find many challenges to overcome, but they had best not start that when 263 or 350 years old.
And they have a nascent demon lord in the middle of their territory, with all those hostile raider types you've mentioned in previous posts all around, plus there's a little problem with the drow.
And saying the forest is 'tamed' and 'free of monsters' is someone who has never read an adventure novel! The elven court in FR was never tamed even when myth drannor was at its height...I kinda doubt that suddenly a wilder place like Kyonin doesn't have plenty of dangers...even if those dangers are smart enough not to bug the elves who would probably be DELIGHTED to engage in some nice monster hunting for sport.
==Aelryinth
So the average elf is level 6 now? Where does it say that Aelryinth? Do they magically jump from level 1 to 6 when they reach adulthood, because they are elves? Set pointed out this is a mistaken assumption "They certainly didn't start at higher level because they were elves (and there's no indication that NPC elves are generally higher level than NPC dwarves or humans or orcs)."
What I am getting at, is I don't have a problem with a veteran or unusually driven elf being level 6. They can get there, but why do you say all elves are level 6? What it says about their memories distracting them, alone sounds like a serious hindrance. Then there is the dabbling, the flippant behaviour, their culture of leisure.
A question, why will elves always have pc classes? Why wouldn't they also be commoners, aristocrats and experts? You want them to be super-soldiers but there are other roles in societies, and these commoners, aristocrats and experts would also be in the militia, since all do some time. So an elven patrol yeah, might have some rangers, it also could have some commoners, a middle-aged aristocrat low level diviner, a specialist gardener expert/poet, a bard/warrior, and a young elven wizard (115 years, so not level 1 yet). From this assembled group of elements from Kyonin society there is no certainty they will all be level 6 by default. If fact, if they are a certain age, they are guaranteed to not even be fully-qualified as level 1s yet, as the age table represents.
It says they are the best silversmiths, it does not say they are the best at all crafts; and isolationism, pride and xenophobia is not the best way to cultivate and expand knowledge of the world, or adopt new and improved crafting techniques which are known abroad. They do not get the open minded feat as a racial bonus, or multiple skill focuses. They are not all the best fighters, and the best crafters, and the most wise sages, and the most advanced wizards--this is propaganda.
Cormanthor is not Kyonin and not relevant, as Kyonin is the subject and Golarion elves.
"even if those dangers are smart enough not to bug the elves"
If the dangers don't bug the elves and fight them, then the new generations are not getting experience from fighting them. The absence of a challenge means the absence of experience from defeating that challenge. Kyonin, a relatively small territory has been patrolled for a very long time. Their militia is dilligent in their internal patrolling, all do it, no matter their skill or background. It is a closed well-hunted and well-patrolled forest.
The demon that keeps being brought up, is sealed away. It isn't the eastern front. This isn't turning the entire society into war veterans.
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On druids striking from river-banks against barges, how did the druid do this 600+ foot inside the forest, when line of sight inside only extends to 30? If he is on the riverbank and can see the barge, he is a target. He too can cast a spell, snipe, hide behind a tree. Also at -20.
Already explained, but maybe after some time you will get it, especially if we go step by step:
- druid transform into a squirrel (you know, that power that druid have to turn into tiny animals?)
- druid climb high tree, one that allow him to see the river at 300'-400', the extra range is to be sure to get to the other bank of the river
- druid has the Natural spell feat, so he can cast in wildshaped form
Got it now?
Forest and cavalry movement.
You have never been in a forest? Apparently not.
It is easily possible to have 30-50 yards of visibility while the terrain is difficult, especially for horses.
The difficulty of the terrain is generated by the roots of the trees, old fallen logs, large tree trunks and so on.
A cavalry charge is not what you see in the Hollywood films with people going around without any organization. To work a cavalry charge need a compact formation with all the people on horseback hitting at the same time with lances or swords.
If your horseman need to swerve around trees every 30' the formation is broken, there is a high chance of horses colliding on each other and even horsemen hitting each other.
If you are American go to one of your national parks and look around.
You have a fair range of visibility but you have 0 chance of making a heavy cavalry charge work.
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On a) Kyonin is involved in highly limited military action. The forests have been long patrolled, monsters would be very rare. Internal feuding, it is indicated, is absent and does not lead to a high amount of civil warfare. The invasions have not come, there has been the very small murder of tresspassers over the years, and the Razmiranian raiders have not been dealt with.
Again? You constantly forget already said things, like the constant war with the Demon and his cohorts next door.
The demons don't stay put because they like it but because the elves keep them contained. So the militia see plenty of action against a hard foe.|
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A fun thing about Druma being in a cold war with Kyonnin and ready to react to an elven error:
this "cold war" as lasted from 2632 to today (4711), so
- the Druma government is very apathetic, way more than the elves
- the elves haven't done any error in more than 2.000 years (improbable)
- maybe Druma is not so interested in invading Kyonnin.
So the average elf is level 6 now? Where does it say that Aelryinth? Do they magically jump from level 1 to 6 when they reach adulthood, because they are elves? Set pointed out this is a mistaken assumption "They certainly didn't start at higher level because they were elves (and there's no indication that NPC elves are generally higher level than NPC dwarves or humans or orcs)."
What I am getting at, is I don't have a problem with a veteran or unusually driven elf being level 6. They can get there, but why do you say all elves are level 6? What it says about their memories distracting them, alone sounds like a serious hindrance. Then there is the dabbling, the flippant behaviour, their culture of leisure.
A question, why will elves always have pc classes? Why wouldn't they also be commoners, aristocrats and experts? You want them to be super-soldiers but there are other roles in societies, and these commoners, aristocrats and experts would also be in the militia, since all do some time. So an elven patrol yeah, might have some rangers, it also could have some commoners, a middle-aged aristocrat low level diviner, a specialist gardener expert/poet, a bard/warrior, and a young elven wizard (115 years, so not level 1 yet). From this assembled group of elements from Kyonin society there is no certainty they will all be level 6 by default. If fact, if they are a certain age, they are guaranteed to not even be fully-qualified as level 1s yet, as the age table represents.
It says they are the best silversmiths, it does not say they are the best at all crafts; and isolationism, pride and xenophobia is not the best way to cultivate and expand knowledge of the world, or adopt new and improved crafting techniques which are known abroad. They do not get the open minded feat as a racial bonus, or multiple skill focuses. They are not all the best fighters, and the best crafters, and the most wise sages, and the most advanced wizards--this is propaganda.
Cormanthor is not Kyonin and not relevant, as Kyonin is the...
Excuse me, did you even read what I posted? No, you just ignored it to repeat an argument already refuted.
They have high quality goods everyone is clamoring for...this is not restricted to silver.They are the best silversmiths around...even better then the dwarves with their racial bonus.
The average elven soldier in the Darkness was level 6 or better.
At level 1 everyone is the same. the average person is not level 1. Average elves are higher level then average humans.
They have demonstrated superior martial ability.
They are SUPERIOR craftsmen. Superior to a human with skill focus. In more then one discipline.
They tend to have both some magic and some martial ability.
They have ranks in more then one discipline, and STILL are effective with it.
They are WEALTHY.
What you call a 'new technique' they call something mastered 10,000 years ago, and you're just learning it NOW?
By the RULES, the only way all of this is possible is if they are HIGHER LEVEL then the average human.
Levels give them extra feats at 3 and 5.
Levels give them a bucketload of skill points.
Levels give them the ability to multi-class and still be effective fighters, even superior ones.
Levels give them wealth and better gear (because, you know, just accumulating stuff over centuries doesn't)
Levels give them HIGHER LIMITS on what their skills can do/accomplish.
If the average dwarf is 3-4, and the average elf is 5-6, they will be superior at crafting skills they share with the dwarves, with +1 Int offsetting +2 Racial ability, and +2 levels giving them the edge, assuming all other things equal.
Levels let them take an Affinity feat in two skills instead of a focus in one, and still be superior to a human.
Levels explain EVERYTHING.
And it don't mean anything for a starting elf, because we're not talking about starting elves, we're talking about average Kyonin elves.
===Aelryinth
First to Diego, although I mainly want to respond to Ael.
Yes, that specific type of druid, with those types of feats and build, and levels could do that specific tactic which you mentioned. Assuming he is present at the invasion to use said abilities, assuming he is coordinated with the elven high command and not off doing his own thing in the nature he worships. The druids of Kyonin are not some type of militant wing for the government--the Queen is not the woodlands after all. Druids are really nasty (effective), but how many are there, and how many of the required level with the natural spell feat?
On cav charges, a cav charge is not the same as riding up and cleaving down an archer you spotted. It is disheartening to hear that you refuse to accept that there would be any cover from or hidrance to archery, when the difficult terrain is capable of stopping whole bodies or horses. That tree you mentioned that delays a cavalryman, well that is part of why visibility won't be so great or long.
Over to the other guy,
The elves in second darkness, were exremely specialised skirmish troops, engaged in a war outside of Kyonin, defending settlements outside of Kyonin, they were not crafters, they were not druids. They were ranger/rogues that have been fighting the drow for some time, and were under serious pressure, in need of ourside help.
So if the level 5-6 applies to this group, because this group is the one getting the real experience and levelling up fast or being killed by drow, how is the average elf back in Kyonin level 6?
None of those, were experts or commoners, they are not the typical elf, from which the elven militia is composed of. They were very close to being an army, not a militia.
Now Charles Evans brought up an interesting point, thank you Charles.
Treerazor is walled-off, contained, he is a bogeyman, but could really cause some problems if he got out. He hasn't been killed, he isn't being killed constantly by elven militia to level up, he is sealed away. So if he is sealed-away and spoken about in hushed-whispers, how are the elves fighting him and becoming veteran?
If they are fighting his agents or something like that, how many are dying, what are the casualty rates, have the demons ever got a victory? No, he is walled-off and the do-or-die situation is averted for now.
Ael, you keep mentioning the high quality good, and I keep pointing out, their productive classes are very small. This is not industrialised England here, they don't produce much. The shaped-silver is really what gets attention and a good price. You make it sound almost like they are dwarves, or the workers of the world pumping out the best goods for all markets. You have them confused with someone else.
You haven't proven why they are higher level. An isolated fragment (as in second darkness) is not the total or the majority. They aren't prone to far-flung adventures and while they emphasise the archery training, their martial training is a bit lax and playful over being serious.
Superior martial ability? Really, what about in hand to hand? Do you think an elven skirmisher is going to do well against a heavy infantry dwarf? Or a polearm-wielding captain, or an Andoranean Eagle Knight? There are many other quite skilled fighters out there. They don't have a monopoly.
So you are saying they are all superior craftsmen? Okay, so they have expert levels en masse? So they aren't ranger rogues, they are ranger rogue experts?
Ah magic. Glad you brought it up, so the mighty elf is now a ranger/rogue/expert/wizard. Well, don't expect to be the best at either field when they are combined into such a confusing time-consuming bundle.
Or are you suggesting, in the old style, that the typical elf is a fighter/wizard now? Then they aren't the veteran ranger rogues in second darkness, this is a different kettle of fish, and as the rules indicate, it takes quite a while for an elf to get to wizard 1, fighter 1. Finish the wizard schooling which is highly important and structured by his people (takes a while), then pick up and get better at the elven blades. Now this elf can fill a few different roles in a militia. But I'm not seeing a high perception here or stealth. It isn't on either list by default. So you can create the spellcasting martial guy, but then he isn't a jungle stalker.
Stick him on a team with jungle stalkers, because the patrolling militia is mixed, and he is going to give away positions. This is why military organisation and grouping people by skills and focus, and not jump lumping them all together, is a good idea.
"They have ranks in more then one discipline, and STILL are effective with it."
Yeeeees, other groups have multiple skills too, what are you getting at, that a small int bonus makes them the best? Ooooh, are you saying they have all skills and are effective with all skills? Where did they get the skill points? How can they do the skills they are not trained in? Each class has its set group, and some need training to be used.
"They are WEALTHY."
They are not especially capitalistic, they don't mine, they have a nature philosophy over an accumulation philosophy. To put it another way, why would an elf, who is not involved in commerce in Greengold, be especially wealthy?
"What you call a 'new technique' they call something mastered 10,000 years ago, and you're just learning it NOW?"
You again are saying they have learned everything, their culture has specific areas of emphasis, they don't get all regional feats by default, or all levels of tech, all spells, all class opportunities just by being elf you know? I can't see the dainty elves as having mastered the highest levels of barbarian rage for instance, or the whole shield-feat tree. Even if it were in a book somewhere, hearing about something is not the same as being able to do something properly (e.g. surgery). They have feat and skill restrictions too you know. Or are you saying all elves have all feats or something ridiculous like that?
"By the RULES, the only way all of this is possible is if they are HIGHER LEVEL then the average human."
Or they grossly over-estimate their abilities...
"Levels give them extra feats at 3 and 5.
Levels give them a bucketload of skill points.
Levels give them the ability to multi-class and still be effective fighters, even superior ones.
Levels give them wealth and better gear (because, you know, just accumulating stuff over centuries doesn't)
Levels give them HIGHER LIMITS on what their skills can do/accomplish.
If the average dwarf is 3-4, and the average elf is 5-6, they will be superior at crafting skills they share with the dwarves, with +1 Int offsetting +2 Racial ability, and +2 levels giving them the edge, assuming all other things equal.
Levels let them take an Affinity feat in two skills instead of a focus in one, and still be superior to a human.
Levels explain EVERYTHING."
Level don't come for free, they have to be earned, and elves live long flippant lives, are constantly distracted by memories and reject much of the outside world. I have indeed said this before, so I'll re-emphasise Set's point, they don't just get levels by being the fabulous elves. They don't just get bucketloads of skill points from the mechanics of the game, because you think they are great. Confidence and arrogance is not levels, and the elves I argue, have the first two in abundance, but not the last by default.
You have claimed too much for them as a whole, and you are departing from what the books says, what is canon on the elves. The picture of the forest skirmisher, master craftsmen wizards requires 4 levels to even get into the beginnings of the ranger/rogue/expert/wizard classes. Four levels in, this isn't to true proficiency, this hasn't unlocked high level spells, or any ranger spells, or even a free archery feat for ranger, or 2d6 for sneak attack. Levels above the first are not given for free to any base race, which means there will be many elves on the way, but not yet achieving this "average level 6 elf" you raise up. Not everyone gets to level 6 (many die), not everyone is driven enough to get to level 6.
Last little thing, why do you say the average dwarf is 3-4? The dwarves are indicated to be far more driven, hard-headed, and martially focused (fighters and their accomplishments get quite the renown in their culture) than the elves. They have a simpler, less-generalised picture presented. You have no certain proof the elven militiaman is higher level than the dwarven fighter. What a ridiculous claim.
Adults at 110 and THEN they still have to get the training for their class. No elf has level 1 at 110, same as no human has level 1 at 13 by the rules.
Elves of Golarion has a very Elf-centric view of Elven accomplishments and abilities. It does not say they are higher level on average, it makes some claims and is very worshipful. The powerful wizards must individually achieve their accomplishments and rise on their own merits. Same with the druids, especially true for the ranger rogues. They are not level 6 by default, or as an average. The average level for the whole is not given. Which is why Set is asking for it.
The Elven troops in Second Darkness are a committed soldiery (very un-Elven, although the dispersed skirmishing used and one troop type is very Elven) that have long been fighting the Drow. These are not the local Kyonin militia, which rarely venture afield even as individuals. As I played part of the adventure path, I noticed they were far closer to Crusaders, and the Crusaders were not the militia of the towns and counties. The war was what their existence was about, at least for now. They are put around the players level, although here for this specific segment it makes some sense. The common ranger rogue you encounter does indeed have some levels, which they have got from their unusually hard trials. There are no level six experts mentioned here, wizards or druids were few to be found. There is no mention that they are a part-time militia as is standard.
Now you say it makes sense for all to be around six or above "Elves have WHOLE TROOPS of f/6's". We say it doesn't make sense because levels do not come free. Hit die and special abilities do for monsters, but Elves are not something like an Illithid or Ogre mages.
I would also ask, if the whole Elven troops are f/6, then where does their reputation for stealth come? Or their skills to be good at multiple areas? Or their penchant to dabble? Fighters get a very low amount of skills, they are combat specialists. Shouldn't you claim there is more rangers to get that tasty favoured enemy bonus you mentioned before, and especially wizards/druids? The usage of "troops" is also incorrect, they are not an army as we understand it, and do not function as a typical army but are a militia of skirmishers.
The skirmisher bowman type is far closer to the scout or ranger, not the fighter.
Adults at 110 and THEN they still have to get the training for their class. No elf has level 1 at 110, same as no human has level 1 at 13 by the rules.
Elves of Golarion has a very Elf-centric view of Elven accomplishments and abilities. It does not say they are higher level on average, it makes some claims and is very worshipful. The powerful wizards must individually achieve their accomplishments and rise on their own merits. Same with the druids, especially true for the ranger rogues. They are not level 6 by default, or as an average. The average level for the whole is not given. Which is why Set is asking for it.
The Elven troops in Second Darkness are a committed soldiery (very un-Elven, although the dispersed skirmishing used and one troop type is very Elven) that have long been fighting the Drow. These are not the local Kyonin militia, which rarely venture afield even as individuals. As I played part of the adventure path, I noticed they were far closer to Crusaders, and the Crusaders were not the militia of the towns and counties. The war was what their existence was about, at least for now. They are put around the players level, although here for this specific segment it makes some sense. The common ranger rogue you encounter does indeed have some levels, which they have got from their unusually hard trials. There are no level six experts mentioned here, wizards or druids were few to be found. There is no mention that they are a part-time militia as is standard.
Now you say it makes sense for all to be around six or above "Elves have WHOLE TROOPS of f/6's". We say it doesn't make sense because levels do not come free. Hit die and special abilities do for monsters, but Elves are not something like an Illithid or Ogre mages.
I would also ask, if the whole Elven troops are f/6, then where does their reputation for stealth come? Or their skills to be good at multiple areas? Or their penchant to dabble? Fighters get a very low amount of skills, they are combat specialists. Shouldn't you claim...
Where does it say all elves are level 1 at 110? How long does young adulthood take for elves? Are you seriously trying to convey that no elf learns basically anything for the first hundred years of their life?
"Adulthood" can very easily mean 'being accepted as an adult'. It has NOTHING to do with levels.
AT age 120, the average elf might be 4th level already...have you even considered THAT? Because they grew up shielded, but had a century to absorb a massive education, got set loose in the world, and zing! put the lessons to use. Because, you know, they can advance JUST as fast as humans, once they start advancing. Or are you now going to try and claim they have an xp penalty?
Humans have a very humanocentric view of the world, and yours is showing, too.
The fact a bunch of elven f/6's is unusual is no more unusual then a bunch of human f/4's. They still exist. And other races are extremely likely to have NPC warriors in numbers who are Warrior/6's, let alone F/6's! You make it seem like they are 'special', when they are right where a bunch of f/6's should be...fighting the enemy! Did you think they should be out patrolling the forest, instead? That's a ranger's job!
Why are YOU saying all elves are f/6's? That is AGAINST the facts...ah, right, you are making things up again for a straw man. Can you kindly stop that?
C'mon man, let it lie. Your view of things does NOT match the game data. The game data says elves average high levels because of their military success, longevity, wealth, proven skills at crafts/trades, and widespread low magic use. Tens of thousands of years of civilization give them access to skills and feats likely not known anywhere else, but that wasn't dealt with for game purposes.
You're trying to shoehorn in human economics into the picture, saying 'this is impossible', except if they are higher level, it IS possible. You've got the evidence of high average levels in multiple places, and all you can do is try to say 'this is an aberration' instead of 'this is how the elves are.'
It's really making you look as if you have blinders on.
==Aelryinth
Removed some posts. Please post civilly!
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Removed some posts. Please post civilly!
Apologies if I am making your job harder. IIRC, my last post to this thread was asking where some of this information was coming from, and Aelryinth replying Elves of Golarion and Second Darkness.
Neither of the posts seemed terribly inflammatory, to me, and yet, it feels like the only criteria for post-deletion this week has been the user name 'Set' preceding it...
Am I getting flagged a lot?
My email is in the profile, if this isn't something appropriate to answer on the forums.
Your posts are actually quite short Set, and not the most inflammatory I have seen. You more ask questions rather than argue. You don't go into long taunts or ad hominem attacks, unlike Ael:
"Humans have a very humanocentric view of the world, and yours is showing, too."
"That is AGAINST the facts...ah, right, you are making things up again for a straw man.
"It's really making you look as if you have blinders on."
Sometimes a certain tone attracts a lot of attention. A lot of my points in the previous Elves of Golarion thread got removed. Something I wasn't happy about. Since a coherent argument across multiple sources can take a while to put together.
Aerl, on age and levels, I've already posted this before. Each race has an age of maturity, it isn't about acceptance, it is about the point one starts to learn what is involved behind levels. Prior to that is childhood. Elves are adults at 110 and then take to learning their craft or focus. They grow slowly, move through the age categories at a somewhat faster speed, and can take a very long time to die of old age.
Page 169, adulthood for elves is 110. Then it is 4d6, 6d6 or 10d6 years before they get their first level. For npcs this would be randomised.
From page 168 'You can choose or randomly generate your character's age. If you choose it, it must be at least the minimum age for the character's race and class (see Table 7-1)'.
So you see of course the elves would learn things over their first hundred years, but they don't get levels in barbarian, ranger or fighter when children. That is how the system works, and it was the same in 3.5. So now you are against the game data.
At age 120, the average wizard elf hasn't finished their level one training (takes on average thirty years, so they start level 1 at 140). Rangers or fighters take less long, but they may still not have finished the training yet. I do of course recognise that once an elf has reached maturity, got their training, got out their and done something, they could rise to all levels with time. By focusing and avoiding the aspects of their species and culture which are a detriment to gaining levels in a quick manner (already covered this above, psychology, problems of distraction, pride, over-confidence).
My last point Ael, was that you were quoted as saying "Elves have WHOLE TROOPS of f/6's". So now you want to expand it out to other classes, and across the entire militia. Well I will ask the question then, where are the level 2 or 3 elves? Do they not exist? What about level 1s? Is there no flippant and casual elf who ever remains a level 1 for even the shortest of time, before jumping to level 6? What if this hypothetical elf prefers sleeping and leisure over war, crafts or politics? Theirs is a culture of patience and leisure after all, and they have not had great military victories for some time. Or dealt with a serious invasion, despite offending their neighbours. The green untested state of their militia is why I think a solid double-sided invasion has a real chance.
They also do not gain any more wealth per level or starting compared to other races and peoples. Set has already said this and his post got deleted. They have one main trade city, Greengold. Other empires, even old and decayed Taldor have many.
Now I am posting civilly, and in response to what has been said to further contribute to the discussion on Kyonin elves.
The Elven troops in Second Darkness are a committed soldiery (very un-Elven, although the dispersed skirmishing used and one troop type is very Elven) that have long been fighting the Drow. These are not the local Kyonin militia, which rarely venture afield even as individuals. As I played part of the adventure path, I noticed they were far closer to Crusaders, and the Crusaders were not the militia of the towns and counties.
You bring up an interresting point, there.
That the elves of Crying Leaf have an average level of 6th is not about being "elven" or 100+ years old; it is about their fighting in a life and death struggle with a horrific opponent for a prolonged period of time. These elves would be much more comparable to the Mendevian Crusaders then the average member of their species - both in terms of combat experience and general survival rates.
Veteran crusaders are not forest militia patrolling an un-tested and un-invaded border.
On the one site of invasion, the bowmen watching the Razmiranian border would be more experienced than the un-tested average because of their encounters, if they have survived the encounters with the raiders as victors.
Or put another way, you can face the struggles to get to mid-level two ways. You can do it slowly and piece-meal over an extended period of time, whereby more survive if the battles aren't too harsh, but rising in skill is slower, and many troops are stuck at levels 3,4 and 5 for some time. Or, you can fight "in a life and death struggle with a horrific opponent for a prolonged period of time" and level up pretty quickly over a long campaign, but certainly not without cost.
Militias have often faced the problem of being green and not as vicious as professional troops/mercenaries. This is the consequences of being part of a defensive, part-time soldiery. Where it is noted that the Razmiranian raiders have not been soundly defeated, and continue to be a threat, that is where my attention was caught, and it got me thinking about the Kyonin situation.
Cheers Lord Fyre.
Veteran crusaders are not forest militia patrolling an un-tested and un-invaded border.
Spoilered for people who haven't played Second Darkness.
These elves really do have an average level of 6th. And they do suffer the casulaties you would expect in such a situation.
That is why I was comparing them to the Mendevian Crusaders.
B.T.W.; the Golarian source material backs you up. An example of the "Average" elven soldier is found page 42 of the Pathfinder Chronicles NPC Guide. The Kyonin Greenscout is a Lvl 2 Ranger. The "elites" of the Elven army are Lvl 4 rangers. (The Kyonin Nightfall Sniper on the same page.)
Though it can be said that this still makes the elves "pretty awesome." The "average" elven soldier is a PC class with an elite array, rather then the more normal Warrior NPC class with a basic array.
Thanks Fyre! Checking it now. Yeah two as an average is surely pretty good. Ranger is an interesting choice for a militia though. Militia are usually warriors, same with town guard as you noted. If it was an older elf, I'd add a level of expert to the greenscout to round the npc out with the many interests of the elves.
I'd put a chance of one of the levels being either wizard/expert/aristocrat/swashbuckler/commoner/cleric of Callstria, after all, the militia draw from all segments of Elven society.
Further discussing the greenscout, it is most curious. Two weapon fighters, with a lowish strength and not much to the to hit bonus (+2/+1). Not the best choice, something with an ac of 14-17 (sword, board, mid armour) could really cause problems. Sometimes I think two-handed is the best bet. The masterwork chain and longsword for all the basic troops makes me pause though. While they have their skilled craftsmen, masterwork for all seems a bit off, since they don't have a huge blacksmith class. Probably most of it is heirloom. Also no quick draw to get out the dual weapons swiftly if an opponent closes.
Favoured enemy goblinoids, yeah that makes sense. Not orcs or humans listed though. No bonuses there against human invaders.
Stealth +6, that is a bit low. Makes sniping a give-away.
Equipment: chain shirt, heavy cloak, no outfit listed. So... half-naked?
The greenscout has knowledge nature, but he doesn't have profession: gardening or agriculture, which all elves we were told, engage in (see Elves of Golarion). This skirmisher deviates from what the typical elf is meant to be and engage in during their free time. No gardening, no poetry, no knowledge arcana or history (they are 110+ years-old by this point).
Ac is good though.
Cha 10? I thought all elves were beautiful? Seems a bit off. Must be the way they speak.
Turns out the fencing was playful, +4 to hit only (1/4 from the weapon), lower when they use their two-weapon feat. Somewhat explains the Elven sword style right there: low damage, lots of attacks, low to hit. Would look nice, not very effective.
On the snipers
The snipers get a bit closer to what others have assumed the standard elf to be, but not greatly impressive. Hp are somewhat low, ranged focus emerges, nice bonus to hit, but no feat to deal with cover or improve perception or stealth really high. The stealth +9 is pretty average, especially if you are going to try sniping (-20) and within 30 to get the to hit and damage bonus. They desperately need str and comp bows, or to improve damage somehow.
Greenscout has a higher strength than the sniper, which has ten. Wow the damage is low, especially if you are not goblin and beyond 30. Within 30 and they are in range of move and attack, which they are not suited to defend against. Dex is nice and high. Int is great, and cha is...8. They can't be ugly, so that must be from attitude. Have one use of longstrider, which they are going to have to use to keep out of melee (no bonus to melee damage).
So sorry Ael, the average Elven soldier is not level 6. Thanks Fyre for the new data from Paizo.
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Yes, that specific type of druid, with those types of feats and build, and levels could do that specific tactic which you mentioned.
Standard druid build using the core manual.
A druid without the capacity to become a tiny animal at level 7 will be a unusual build, and not taking the Natural spell feat when your class is all about changing shape would be decidedly unusual too.
B.T.W.; the Golarian source material backs you up. An example of the "Average" elven soldier is found page 42 of the Pathfinder Chronicles NPC Guide. The Kyonin Greenscout is a Lvl 2 Ranger. The "elites" of the Elven army are Lvl 4 rangers. (The Kyonin Nightfall Sniper on the same page.)Though it can be said that this still makes the elves "pretty awesome." The "average" elven soldier is a PC class with an elite array, rather then the more normal Warrior NPC class with a basic array.
Out of curosity what it say about average and elite human soldiers?
Out of curosity what it say about average and elite human soldiers?
B.T.W.; the Golarian source material backs you up. An example of the "Average" elven soldier is found page 42 of the Pathfinder Chronicles NPC Guide. The Kyonin Greenscout is a Lvl 2 Ranger. The "elites" of the Elven army are Lvl 4 rangers. (The Kyonin Nightfall Sniper on the same page.)Though it can be said that this still makes the elves "pretty awesome." The "average" elven soldier is a PC class with an elite array, rather then the more normal Warrior NPC class with a basic array.
Nothing directly.
We do know from page 50 of the Pathfinder Chronicles NPC Guide that the "average" Shoanti tribesman (and we should know how harsh the Cinderlands are) is a Lvl 1 Barbarian.
So the best answer to your question would be page 286 of the Pathfinder Role Playing Game Gamastery Guide. So the average human soldier is a Lvl 1 Warrior (an NPC class with the basic attribute array).
Human elites are harder to pin down, as they tend to be more reflective of the individual nations. I would be inclinded to go back to the NPC Guide, for Taldor there is the Elite Cavalry on page 50, with is a Lvl 2 fighter/Lvl 2 Ranger.
Thanks Fyre! Checking it now. Yeah two as an average is surely pretty good. Ranger is an interesting choice for a militia though. Militia are usually warriors, same with town guard as you noted. If it was an older elf, I'd add a level of expert to the greenscout to round the npc out with the many interests of the elves.
It was not my intent to critique the build.
I was pointing out that the RULES have an "official" answer to Aelryinth's many (and erroneous) comments about elven superiority.Basically:
That is all I was saying. Sorry if I was not sufficiently clear.
It is always good to be clear.
On the npcs, the barb 2 orc berserker (p. 36) is a great build. Very focused on to hit and damage. Also mentions they get eagerly and quickly hired out as mercenaries. This elite seems to balance out with the elven elite, which has higher levels, but greater flaws. The orc is also more charismatic, lol.
Somewhat skilled troops that can be encountered in their state of origin seem to be about level 2-3. See the Brevoy duelist page 37 which is level 2. Hellknights are fighter 3, Linnorm raider level 3 (barb 2 and rogue 1, nice build), and Taldorian privateers a nice simulation of the typical pirate are level 3 rogues. Isgerian human female monks are level 3 (and have quite the fearsome reputation). The book adds a lot of character to the various regional combatants. Alas the Druman blackjacket is not in there. Hellknight might be closest if the feats are used in that fashion.
Absalom thug is a good build for a nasty sort of human with a bit of experience in a lot of fights (rogue 1/warrior 3). The Linnorm raider could perhaps best represent the Razmiranian raiders hassling the border.
What next shall we discuss on elves of golarion?
lol. Interesting points. could really see the orcish berserker tearing the nightfall sniper a new one. Rolling flat d8 for damage. Can make their stealth at -20. Assuming the orc has no perception, He's now sitting on a +8 modifier after deducting distance and stealth modifiers. Unless its a crit on high damage, orcs will close and the elven swordplay isn't that great. Low to hit bonus and damage. doesn't have to be about damage but no disarm or weapon-locking? Sheesh. Things could go really badly.
Yeah, on average it would take 5.75 arrows which each must hit, for the elf sniper to knock off the orc. Less if close, but close is very dangerous. A focused low level char can take a flawed higher level char.
lol. Interesting points. could really see the orcish berserker tearing the nightfall sniper a new one. Rolling flat d8 for damage. Can make their stealth at -20. Assuming the orc has no perception, He's now sitting on a +8 modifier after deducting distance and stealth modifiers. Unless its a crit on high damage, orcs will close and the elven swordplay isn't that great. Low to hit bonus and damage. doesn't have to be about damage but no disarm or weapon-locking? Sheesh. Things could go really badly.
Except the elf is shooting from 80' away and the orc can't see him AT ALL...that's a factor. Twilight illumination definitely favors low light vision over darkvision.
==Aelryinth
Incorrect! Check the perception rules and sniping. From 80 away the elf can snipe and try to make a stealth with a +8 from distance, and then a -20 from using the snipe attack option. We have a -12, which the elf uses his okay stealth to try and bring down, but does not (it is taken to a stealth at -6, -12 +6. The orc has a -1 to perception, mitigating the advantage slightly, so still the difference is -5 against the elf, not -6 to the hide). The greenscout is especially bad at this, with no skill focus: stealth. Since the greenscout elf is not using a composite bow that damage is at flat 1d8, which is not very good.
Perception isn't just sight. In fact, even drawing a bow gives a chance for an enemy to detect the bowman, check the perception rules. With low light, things are going really well for the elves, an assumption that they will be in that position is put forth again. Are you so sure the orc can't see anything at 80 or out in low light? They have their darkvision, they are not on penalties for bright light. you 80 foot claim is interesting, because if it is just a little later, at night, the elf cannot see 80, whereas the orc can, but of course can hear out that far since perception isn't just sight.
+6 stealth is a long way from being invisible, even before the -20 from sniping.
The terrible bow damage really has to get through over and over without detection to off the orc. This isn't very easy on the numbers, although the orc is not especially perceptive they put the enemy trying to stay hidden on -20 fro each hide check. Notice the level 2 orc barbarian can actually kill the elven bowmen in one greataxe strike, and even with armour has the same speed as the elf. If not wearing armour, the orc is easier to hit, but has better movement and ability to chase down foes, and a good fort.
What do you think Ael of Fyre finding the proof the average elf is not level 6 but 2, and that it is an okay build but with many faults and not a sniper or shot on the run focus?
His twilight visibility is going to be restricted to 60', the distance of his darkvision. Beyond that, he's not going to be seeing anything. If you're talking HEARING the elf, I dunno, either...what is the sniping penalty for someone who you effectively have total concealment against? You don't suddenly lose concealment if he still can't see you!
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The 'proof' Frey found is offset by the 'proof' in the other venues. What you've got is 'competing and conflicting' game information. He's in effect saying what you have...the elves in the golarion book can't do what they say if they are the same low-level twerps found everywhere else.
And all the terminology in the Elves book points at the elves being on average MUCH higher level then those tossed out in the Campaign Setting Book, AND you've got evidence that the aging conventions in the racial sections, lifted out of 3.5, are also not applying (which doesn't surprise me...Dwarves get a longer prime of life then elves do!).
By the evidence and statements given in the Elves of Golarion book, elves are higher level. The AP Second Darkness reinforces that notion. Their ability to do all that they've been able to accomplish seconds it, whereas the Campaign Setting book looks more like something thrown together, and NOT as specific as the racial book.
I'd give the nod towards the later information myself. That's how it always works...the latter is an update to prior information.
===Aelryinth
By the evidence and statements given in the Elves of Golarion book, elves are higher level. The AP Second Darkness reinforces that notion. Their ability to do all that they've been able to accomplish seconds it, whereas the Campaign Setting book looks more like something thrown together, and NOT as specific as the racial book.
I'd give the nod towards the later information myself. That's how it always works...the latter is an update to prior information.
You are missing a couple of points here.
The Pathfinder Chronicles NPC Guide (a Pathfinder RPG sourcebook) was published after Second Darkness (a D&D 3.5 Adventure Path) AND the Pathfinder Companion: Elves of Golarion (a D&D 3.5 sourcebook). By your own statements, it should take precedence.
Second, I already dealt with the Elves from the Second Darkness. Their situation is NOT normal. That is why I tend to compare them with the Mendevian Crusaders (who regularly deal with Hordes of Demons) rather then regular solders.
The 'proof' Frey found is offset by the 'proof' in the other venues. What you've got is 'competing and conflicting' game information. He's in effect saying what you have...the elves in the golarion book can't do what they say if they are the same low-level twerps found everywhere else.
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
The claims that the elves are making about themselves in the "Elves of Golarion" book are not supported by objective fact.|
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Second, I already dealt with the Elves from the Second Darkness. Their situation is NOT normal. That is why I tend to compare them with the Mendevian Crusaders (who regularly deal with Hordes of Demons) rather then regular solders.
Yeah, if the 5th level Elves from Second Darkness are to be considered 'average' then the bands of Shoanti (average level 6) in Curse of the Crimson Throne are better than them, and the troops of Korvosan guards (8th level) are even better still, and, since both Shoanti and Korvosans are humans, they'll have produced *five* of these 'average' 6th and 8th level humans for each 5th level elf to reach maturity.
The human forces would be both higher level *and* have five times more higher level individuals, if this interpretation was valid (which I don't think it is).
And if that contradicts the implications that 'elves are betterer' in Elves of Golarion, that only proves the original allegation, that Elves of Golarion fluffs up elves to a degree that is not backed up by the mechanics or their presence in the game-setting.
If it's 'evidence' at all, and I'm not convinced it's anything other than level-appropriate elves (and shoanti, and korvosans) for the environment in which they are operating, then it's only proving that the Elves of Golarion fluff does not live up to the crunch (and even that requires one to accept the assertation that Elves of Golarion supports the notion that elves have a ton more higher level people than any of the other races, which I'm not convinced it does).
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Yeah, if the 5th level Elves from Second Darkness are to be considered 'average' then the bands of Shoanti (average level 6) in Curse of the Crimson Throne are better than them, and the troops of Korvosan guards (8th level) are even better still, and, since both Shoanti and Korvosans are humans, they'll have produced *five* of these 'average' 6th and 8th level humans for each 5th level elf to reach maturity.
From memory, the 8th level fighters in Korsova aren't the Korsovan guard, they are the hand picked Iron Maidens guarding the queen.
If you want to compare the Korsova queen personal guard to someone, you need to find the elf queen personal guard stats somewhere.
Aelryinth argument has little ground, but it is on the same level of 3.5 position that all the the Druma Blackjacket are uber NPC in uncountable numbers while the elf are mostly low level commoners.
They both base their opinion in a few rows in 2 supplements speaking of a plethora of things. Both of them are unwilling to accept that most of the information Paizo put out are based on the needs of balancing the game and making the PC shining stars. So you get things like 21 people hamlets were you can buy potions costing less than 200 gp and 1d6 minor magic items but that are incapable to defeat a raid by 10 goblins.
No I don't think the blackjackets are "uber" or exist in "uncountable" numbers. They are the best Druma produces apparently, good rep, finely equipped, hard training, strange discipline about them, fighters that do a lot of guarding, training and protection. Few levels of fighter or above slightly, maybe a fighter/knight, the heavy infantry shield-bashing hellknight npc stats made sense, maybe a bit of iron will thrown in. There will not be that many of them, which is always the case with elites. Probably have a couple to four levels, since the Taldorian and Andoranean elites are quite good and around there.
I've put my various arguments for the level difference in comparing what is written about the two forces--elven militia and blackjacket. I don't think the level difference would be so great, but I argued against the argument by Ael that all elves are level 6 fighters, and then it was replaced with the claim they are level 6 across the board, without fail.
I've also said the elven militia could be a mix of classes, since militias are a mix of people, this was previous to encountering the clarified standard ranger 2 greenscout. Which I find is a nice base, and official too.
Ael, you could benefit by carefully reading the arguments above me, and trying to use less caps for emphasis.
YOU are the one that said all the elves were f/6, not me. Get your references straight, and quit building strawmen for arguments I was not making.
I said the AVERABE elf, by evidence of the Elves of Golarion book and supporting documentation, probably averages 5th level. It would explain EVERYTHING you feel is wrong about them. I Did not say ALL ELVES.
I made no claim to class whatsoever, let alone f/6. Exaggerate much?
So, YOU could benefit by not misquoting me and building straw man arguments, thank you.
The elven troops in Second Darkness are never described as an elite guard. They are simply elven fighters...professional soldiers. And they are sixth level.
The elite elves are 8th level plus...the ranger corps.
If we're trying to discuss balance issues vs gaming issues, you can throw everything out the window.
But you keep making arguments that the NPC's you are finding can't do what the Elves of Golarion specifically CAN do, and you are ignoring the simple solution that they are higher level on average then their neighbors, which explains everything.
I find that quite confusing that the answer to your problem is right in front of you, and you keep dismissing it.
==Aelryinth