Hello Pathfinders!
The other day I was browsing thru the TV trops and came across this:
Looking at the core and advanced books, and I noticed that there is no such thing for arcane/divine spells casters (Psionics had an old one, not sure if it was updated in the Psionics unleashed book or not) and decided to homebrew one, so, I need your opinions on the feats.
Soul Tap
You can tap into your very life force in order to cast additional spells.
Prerequisites: Constitution 13+, Endurance, Toughness.
Benefit: Whenever you use all your spells per day (excluding cantrips/orisons), you can utilize your very own life force to fuel the energy needed to cast a spell. For each spell level of the spell cast, you lose 3 hit points. Spellcasters that prepare spells ahead of time can only cast spells previously prepared. The damage taken from using this feat cannot be restored via any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability.
Soul Tap, Improved
You can tap into your very life force in order to enhance spells with metamagic effects.
Prerequisites: Soul Tap, any metamagic feat, spellcaster level 10+.
Benefit: You can apply any metamagic feat you know to a spell you are about to cast without increasing its casting time or modified spell level. For each spell level adjustment of the metamagic effect, you lose 2 hit points, the total modified spell level cannot be more than the highest spell level that you can cast. The damage taken from using this feat cannot be restored via any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability.
bump?
Don't like it to be honest. First off, granting more spells per day is a VERY powerful thing to do. Casters are kick-ass enough as it is. Secondly, while "damage can't be healed by magic" does limit the feat, it risks making the whole party very front-loaded; the wizard casts a bunch of high level spells, then they all have to rest for a month. Maybe not that bad, but the incentive is there.
If you really want to do this, make the hit point cost far higher (especially for high-level spells) but that it can be healed normally. At least something like (spell level +1)^2 (so 1 hp for cantrip, 4 for 1st level spell, 100 for 9th level). Or make it constitution damage, though that is usually healed even easier than hit points damage at high levels.
Don't like it to be honest. First off, granting more spells per day is a VERY powerful thing to do. Casters are kick-ass enough as it is. Secondly, while "damage can't be healed by magic" does limit the feat, it risks making the whole party very front-loaded; the wizard casts a bunch of high level spells, then they all have to rest for a month. Maybe not that bad, but the incentive is there.
If you really want to do this, make the hit point cost far higher (especially for high-level spells) but that it can be healed normally. At least something like (spell level +1)^2 (so 1 hp for cantrip, 4 for 1st level spell, 100 for 9th level). Or make it constitution damage, though that is usually healed even easier than hit points damage at high levels.
Well, the first feat can't be used unless you are out of spells for the day, yes, I could do it giving a penalty to consitution, but as you said it can be restored (unless I state it otherwise), the first one is supposed to be like your last resort, not to be used consecutively.
I did this feat more out of flavor for the trope mentioned above.
Also cantrips don;t need to be used with this feat, they already cost 0 spells per day XD.
Perhaps bump the life taken to 5 x spell level?
Also, could you comment on the improved version?
From one troper to another. I like it. Captures the trope pretty well.
Keep the hp cost as is. The first feat is useful at lower levels but at higher levels not so much. not Casters generally don't have much hit points so if the 18 level caster really wants cast a level 9 spell, after having spent every last spell(!) including the 1st level ones he doesn't even uses anymore, and doesn't care of losing 27(!!)Hp, he must be in a really bad situation.
The improved version is pretty awesome. 2hp per metamagic level is low enough that it's an useful option, but just high enough that you would keep it as a last resort. Thumbs up.
I love this trope. I've worked up some rules for a spell-point variant system that requires a caster to use hit points in place of spell points, taking nonlethal damage equal to the spell's cost. Haven't had a chance to use it in-game yet, but it's working well in my bored-at-home-playing-with-the-numbers runthroughs so far, and my group is excited about the idea (we've just been too busy to play lately).
Regarding the healing issue, what about creatures with fast healing or regeneration? Potentially very powerful with these feats--especially the Improved version. Troll clerics, Mephit sorcerers, etc. are typically uncommon, of course, but something to consider.
Regarding the hit point damage/healing: You could take a page from the Midnight campaign setting--take Constitution damage equal to the level of the spell that can't be healed by magic, but which automatically heals after 8 hours of sleep. (I think the psionics handbook had a similar concept with their Ability Burn, but I forget the exact details.) This makes using the feat extremely risky for the immediate future and a last resort, but doesn't require game-stoppingly long recovery times.
...take Constitution damage equal to the level of the spell that can't be healed by magic, but which automatically heals after 8 hours of sleep....
This is really good advice. I would consider implementing these feats if all damage was converted to CON damage. This should apply to metamagic feats as well. Meaning that if you wanted to apply a metamagic feat to a spell that was not memmed with the metamagic feat, the character would take CON damage equal to the number of levels needed to adjust the spell.
Similarily, if you wanted to recast a spell that has been cast AND apply a metamagic feat to it, it would cost (SL+Metamagic feat modification) in CON until rested.
Well, the first feat can't be used unless you are out of spells for the day...
I would do away with this. It doesn't seem necessary and if someone wanted to recast a spell he could potentially burn through all his other spells on purpose just to be able to recast the needed spell.
You could also incorporate a rule that a character who memorizes spells could spend double points to cast a spell that was not memorized that day.
As a side note: Why are these feats and not abilities that ANYONE could use? Truly I would streamline it and just make them house rules for spellcasters. This would enable you to do away with level modifications all together on metamagic feats and instead, always apply CON damage.
VERY RAISTLIN-Y
Con damage? That's awful. It doesn't just lowers your Fort. It deals hit point damage equal to your hd for every 2 points, so if a 5th level mage used this to cast a 2nd level spell he would lose 10 hit points intead of only 6. And how many casters really have a con of higher than 14? 16? More than two or three spell would KILL you. Con damage is suicidal.
The thing about a non-memorized spell being cast with an extra cost could be cool.
As a side note: Why are these feats and not abilities that ANYONE could use? Truly I would streamline it and just make them house rules for spellcasters. This would enable you to do away with level modifications all together on metamagic feats and instead, always apply CON damage.
Because spellcasters are so underpowered, they need a free boost without even spending a feat... There's something wrong on that thought can you guess what? ;)
I would do away with this. It doesn't seem necessary and if someone wanted to recast a spell he could potentially burn through all his other spells on purpose just to be able to recast the needed spell.
At high levels this would probably take about an hour of just cast spells, so you can spend hp for the ONE utility spell they forgot to memorize.
At low levels, with less spells, you COULD do that, but you would have to be on your last spells, spend a couple rounds being more or less useless in a fight and then spend hit points, or worse CON, to cast a couple spells. If you are THAT desperate for that one spell, by all means go ahead, I wouldn't stop you. The real utility of this feat is: "Dammit I'm all out of spells and the monster is still attacking. I haven't lost to many hp because the fighter is doing his job as a tank but if we don't win soon he dies, and without spells I won't last more then 2 rounds. But I can spend 6 hp to throw a cure moderate wounds/summon monster2/dazemonster/scorching ray."
Sorry I should clarify I was under the assumption that we were talking about con damage that would heal the next time you sleep for 8 hrs.
As far as my suggestion about con damage and omitting the feat requirement:
First you complain that con damage is too hurtful forecasters, then you say spellcasters are too powerful.
I don't get it.
If its a feat ALL casters would take, it shouldn't be a feat. (Concentration anyone???)
I think people here are talking past each other. The thread starter, I think, doesn't want a hit point-based casting system or this to be used very often at all, but rather as a "last resort".
To that end, I don't think it would be a bad idea that instead of having a "can't be healed" clause, instead a "can only use this if having less than 1/4 max hit points" might be a better idea. One might even want to skip the DAMAGE, and just put the caster in the "dying" condition. Getting extra spells of your top level is a BIG deal after all.
Desperate Measures
You can tap into your very life force in order to cast additional spells.
Prerequisites: Constitution 13+
Benefit: You can utilize your very own life force to fuel the energy needed to cast a spell, when in dire need. This ability takes a swift action to activate. You may immediately cast a spell you know, even if you don't have it prepared or doesn't have any more slots left. The spell must have a casting time of a standard action or less, but casting it does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
When the spell has been cast, you're immediately damaged to -5 hit points (unless you already had less hit points), unconscious and dying. To spontaneous casters, using their body for magic comes more naturally; if the spell cast was cast as a spontaneous caster, you may make a fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 + level of the spell. If you succeed, you're put at 0 hit points and disabled.
Reasons for design: No attacks of opportunity because it would be REALLY sad if someone whack you on your head in your moment of glorious personal sacrifice. Bonus to spontaneous casters because they should be gifted at this and because they don't have as many spells known and thus would have less use of it otherwise. No requirement on lost hit points or "have to burn through all other spells first" because it isn't needed with this penalty.
I think people here are talking past each other. The thread starter, I think, doesn't want a hit point-based casting system or this to be used very often at all, but rather as a "last resort".
To that end, I don't think it would be a bad idea that instead of having a "can't be healed" clause, instead a "can only use this if having less than 1/4 max hit points" might be a better idea. One might even want to skip the DAMAGE, and just put the caster in the "dying" condition. Getting extra spells of your top level is a BIG deal after all.
** spoiler omitted **
Reasons for design: No attacks of opportunity because it would be REALLY sad if someone whack you on your head in your moment of glorious personal sacrifice. Bonus to spontaneous casters because they should be gifted at this and because they don't have as many spells known and thus would have less use of it otherwise. No requirement on lost hit points or "have to burn through all other spells first" because it isn't needed with this penalty.
Hmmm I like this idea, but, it should at least require you to burn 1-2 feats, (Toughness comes to mind, as does endurance). I will take notes of this, and see what can be done with an improved one (to allow metamagic eggects). I like the name soul tap more though.
As for the original design, I intended it so you cannot regain the lost hit points, except via resting for a day, don't know if regeneration goes under supernatural or spell-like, anyways, that too is out of the question to avoid regeneration abuse.
Should I get rid of the "needs to use all other spells first"?
Should I get rid of the "spells already prepared"? (I think this makes the feat TOO good), allowing you to sacrifice hp for any spell...
I am not a troper(hate tropes, in fact), but I'm already using something very similar to this in my homebrew. I'm testing my rule out now in a Kingmaker game I'm running and I'm getting the desired effect, when that game ends, I will be running my homebrew and will see how it works on a grander stage.
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Considering that 'X' amount of Hit Points worth of damage is meant to indicate a smaller wound / injury for higher level characters (so a 1 Hit Point wound for a level 1 character is basically the same wound as a 10 Hit Point wound for a level 10 character) I'd suggest having a formula which multiplies the damage the caster takes by his own level (or, more to the point, his Hit Dice). Maybe spell level x own Hit Dice worth of damage? That way the spellcaster is physically manifesting the same damage when he casts, no matter his level, rather than the cost of casting spells this way quickly becoming trivial as he levels up (not to mention making multi-class Barbarian / Sorcerers able to cast all day, every day!).
The caster taking Constitution damage does a similar thing, but Constitution damage requires all that fiddly working out of additional Hit Point loss, new Fortitude save values, etc. - although how much of a hassle you think that is will likely vary.
Another idea would be to equate each spell level with the equivalent spell level Cure spell's worth of damage. So casting a level 1 spell inflicts 1d8 + own level (maximum of +5) on the caster. That way, even if you allow such damage to be healed normally, the party's total magical resources sort-of even out anyway. The random nature of the damage also makes it more of a gamble too. To make it less of a fair trade-off you could bump the damage to more than the equivalent Cure spell's worth, to discourage the inevitable min-maxing having such an option available will produce.
A system like this, of 'penalised' casting, can also be expanded to include various conditions - either instead or, or in addition to, the Hit Point damage. Maybe using this option causes the caster to be fatigued? Or clouds his vision so that he's dazzled? Or slows him down, or nausiates him, or... you get the idea.
If you're after a more 'superheroic' campaign, you could have spells inflicting non-lethal damage on their casters - they're tiring, but you quickly regain your strength, and casting the things can't actually kill you.
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I've been messing with making a Blood Caster as part of a complete rewrite of the classes I've been working on as a pet project. Essentially, there are four types of magic: Arcane, Divine, Psionic, and Spirit. Each is keyed to a single casting stat: Arcane(Int), Divine(Wis), Psionic(Cha), and Spirit(Con). Yes, Con as a casting stat :) Each type of magic has four classes that use it: a prepared full caster, a spontaneous full caster, a secondary caster, and a tertiary caster (four levels of spells like Paladin).
Anywho, the spontaneous Spirit caster is going to be the Blood Caster. I'm pretty sure I'm going with: you can cast at any caster level up to your own, but the cost in HP of casting a spell equals Spell Level times Caster Level. I'm also playing with needing a Fort save to cast your highest level of spells / cast highest level spells without Con damage (which is their casting stat) / cast highest level spells without becoming Exhausted/Fatigued/whatever. Haven't quite got that part worked out yet. (Any suggestions would be welcome)
It should be noted that all types have different spell lists: Spirit casters' list would be approximate in power/style to the Witch list. In fact, the Witch (with modifications) is the prepared full Spirit caster.
Maths: Assuming 10th level Blood Caster, max Con of 26ish is a +8 bonus. Average 10th level d6 hitdie is 37.5, including Con and Favored Class: 127.5. Highest spell level is 5th. Casting a highest level spell at full caster level takes: 5*10=50hp or about 39% of your total hitpoint pool.
Just my 2cp.
I've been messing with making a Blood Caster as part of a complete rewrite of the classes I've been working on as a pet project. Essentially, there are four types of magic: Arcane, Divine, Psionic, and Spirit. Each is keyed to a single casting stat: Arcane(Int), Divine(Wis), Psionic(Cha), and Spirit(Con). Yes, Con as a casting stat :) Each type of magic has four classes that use it: a prepared full caster, a spontaneous full caster, a secondary caster, and a tertiary caster (four levels of spells like Paladin).
Anywho, the spontaneous Spirit caster is going to be the Blood Caster. I'm pretty sure I'm going with: you can cast at any caster level up to your own, but the cost in HP of casting a spell equals Spell Level times Caster Level. I'm also playing with needing a Fort save to cast your highest level of spells / cast highest level spells without Con damage (which is their casting stat) / cast highest level spells without becoming Exhausted/Fatigued/whatever. Haven't quite got that part worked out yet. (Any suggestions would be welcome)
It should be noted that all types have different spell lists: Spirit casters' list would be approximate in power/style to the Witch list. In fact, the Witch (with modifications) is the prepared full Spirit caster.
Maths: Assuming 10th level Blood Caster, max Con of 26ish is a +8 bonus. Average 10th level d6 hitdie is 37.5, including Con and Favored Class: 127.5. Highest spell level is 5th. Casting a highest level spell at full caster level takes: 5*10=50hp or about 39% of your total hitpoint pool.
Just my 2cp.
This sounds awesome. Is there anywhere I can see more of this and maybe make suggestions? In case there isn't, I think 39% of your life total for one spell is a little too much. Keep in mind that any damage you take would take down the number of spells you can cast, so if a monster targets you for a couple attacks you could lose most of your spellcasting without actually casting spells.
Maths: Assuming 10th level Blood Caster, max Con of 26ish is a +8 bonus. Average 10th level d6 hitdie is 37.5, including Con and Favored Class: 127.5. Highest spell level is 5th. Casting a highest level spell at full caster level takes: 5*10=50hp or about 39% of your total hitpoint pool.
39% at tenth level is huge for just one spell. The problem that I see is that what if a character was not a min/maxer. Lets say a character decided to have a 16-18 at first level. This would place the character at the 22-24 CON range at tenth.
Average hitdie is same, but with fav. level and CON now 107.5-117.5Now we are nearing 50% for one spell for someone with 22 CON. Bare in mind, at 22 CON you should receive a bonus 5th and 6th level spell slot.
The witches total spells at level 10 with that 22 CON are:
(4) 6 6 4 4 3
The witches total casting capacity in hps would be
(assuming 0 levels don't cause damage) 60, 120, 120, 160, 150
Thats potentially 610 hps worth of spells total.
Again, with only 107.5 hps at 10th level with 22 CONl
(Of course not all of these spells will need to be cast at 10th level, but a good portion of them would benefit from it.)
What if you put some type or escalating resistance that reduced HP used?
and
You can raise the Dice Used to D10s? I know it sounds like a lot for a caster....
Stuff:I've been messing with making a Blood Caster as part of a complete rewrite of the classes I've been working on as a pet project. Essentially, there are four types of magic: Arcane, Divine, Psionic, and Spirit. Each is keyed to a single casting stat: Arcane(Int), Divine(Wis), Psionic(Cha), and Spirit(Con). Yes, Con as a casting stat :) Each type of magic has four classes that use it: a prepared full caster, a spontaneous full caster, a secondary caster, and a tertiary caster (four levels of spells like Paladin).Anywho, the spontaneous Spirit caster is going to be the Blood Caster. I'm pretty sure I'm going with: you can cast at any caster level up to your own, but the cost in HP of casting a spell equals Spell Level times Caster Level. I'm also playing with needing a Fort save to cast your highest level of spells / cast highest level spells without Con damage (which is their casting stat) / cast highest level spells without becoming Exhausted/Fatigued/whatever. Haven't quite got that part worked out yet. (Any suggestions would be welcome)
It should be noted that all types have different spell lists: Spirit casters' list would be approximate in power/style to the Witch list. In fact, the Witch (with modifications) is the prepared full Spirit caster.
Maths: Assuming 10th level Blood Caster, max Con of 26ish is a +8 bonus. Average 10th level d6 hitdie is 37.5, including Con and Favored Class: 127.5. Highest spell level is 5th. Casting a highest level spell at full caster level takes: 5*10=50hp or about 39% of your total hitpoint pool.
Just my 2cp.
I had the same idea actually, though in my case it would be a feat called Blood Magic rather than a class. Well, not the same idea, just the "spell level times caster level" formula. Though I went with "spell level times 1/2 caster level", so at level 20 a 9th level spell would cost 90 HP (rather than 180, which... well. Is a lot. But this is for arcane casters in general, not a Con-based caster who could probably take that damage.)
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This sounds awesome. Is there anywhere I can see more of this and maybe make suggestions?
Haha thanks! I mentioned this to my LoF players and they didn't seem too excited :P Most of what I have is scribbled in various notebooks, but I can cobble them together and post them up somewhere :) I'll reply to this thread, and probably make a new one when I do.
In case there isn't, I think 39% of your life total for one spell is a little too much. Keep in mind that any damage you take would take down the number of spells you can cast, so if a monster targets you for a couple attacks you could lose most of your spellcasting without actually casting spells.
39% at tenth level is huge for just one spell. The problem that I see is that what if a character was not a min/maxer. Lets say a character decided to have a 16-18 at first level. This would place the character at the 22-24 CON range at tenth.
Average hitdie is same, but with fav. level and CON now 107.5-117.5
Now we are nearing 50% for one spell for someone with 22 CON. Bare in mind, at 22 CON you should receive a bonus 5th and 6th level spell slot.
The witches total spells at level 10 with that 22 CON are:
(4) 6 6 4 4 3
The witches total casting capacity in hps would be
(assuming 0 levels don't cause damage) 60, 120, 120, 160, 150
Thats potentially 610 hps worth of spells total.
Again, with only 107.5 hps at 10th level with 22 CONl(Of course not all of these spells will need to be cast at 10th level, but a good portion of them would benefit from it.)
What if you put some type or escalating resistance that reduced HP used?
and
You can raise the Dice Used to D10s? I know it sounds like a lot for a caster....
Haha, I played around with it a bit, and this is the best I've been able to come up with :D After first level, Blood Casters are almost always going to go into each battle with full HP and full spells. No other class can even recover spells, much less 100% for the low low price of 750gp (CLW wand); so, I erred on the side of caution. I think cutting yourself open and casting spells with your own bodily health should be pretty dangerous :P
For discussion, here's some issues I've ran into, that I think the Level*CL system fixes:
1) As mentioned, fully recovering spells for each battle - I'm fine with them having all their spells, if they're going to have to risk their life to cast them in the first place.
2) Most scaling systems I came up with ended up with lower level spells being able to be cast without any danger or effort after a few levels. For example: using spell level squared in HP, 9th levels are 81, whereas 1st levels are only 1 HP.
3) I wanted to add class abilities that dealt with Con, Health, and so on, so I needed the initial casting system to be somewhat harsh, so I had something to improve upon.
And 4) This is one of the worst cases of Single-Ability Dependancy I've seen. Wizards get complained about because "They just need Int, and a little Con for life"... well, this needs Con and only Con :P While I know not everyone will be min/maxing, I have to take care to make it so someone CAN'T min/max this class to be the most powerful thing in existence.
That all said, this is only the best I'VE come up with. If anyone has ideas, I'd love to hear them.
As for:
Resistance, reducing HP used - Thought about it for a class ability, or possibly a feat targeting Blood Casters. At the same time, I don't know how to scale the resistance: I really don't want anything other than 0-levels to be cast for free. (Ex: If there was an ability "Cast all spells for 5 less HP, then a 1st level at CL 5 would be completely free and spam-able). Have any suggestions on how to do it? :)
Raising Hit Dice - Definitely a possibility. Not something I want to do, as casters typically don't have high hit-die, but I'm definitely open to it. As I get this class more and more concrete, I suspect I'll go up to a d8 at least!
:D
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Ok guys and gals, I have finally got the class worked up as a Sorcerer Archetype (figured that fit best), and have it posted here.
Any feedback would be much appreciated, as well would be any ideas for extra Blood Rites.
I'll make another thread on the Homebrew forum for this.
Thanks all :)
Respond here then, right? OK
Bleeding Spellpower: What does this one do? It seems the intention to be that you can use the bleed damage to fuel a spell but then it says "Doing so incurs an additional amount of hit point damage equal to the original amount of the Bleed effect." Please clarify.
Infect by Spell: At one point it says that you transfer the condition, so the sorcerer has to be infected first? And then he is healed and the recipient becomes diseased? Needs calrification.
Keep the Blood A-Flowing: As written it seems you gain regeneration in adittion to the Fast Healing, instead of replacing it, is that what is intented? That would heal 10hp per round, but considering 5th level spells at that caster level would take 85 hp I guess it is ok.
Greater and Grand Blood Rites: You can only take one of each, right? So at 11, 13, 15 and 19th level, you take normal Blood Rites?
It also needs a couple more rites of all levels, but I like it. Will come back later with some rite suggestions.
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Haha I made a thread for it, but either is fine. I'm checking them both :)
First, thanks for the feedback! When I'm writing these things, sometimes it's hard to see the difference between what I mean and what I actually wrote. Feedback like this helps out immensely.
Bleeding Spellpower: Yes, the intention is that if you suffer 5 bleed damage, you can fuel up to a 5HP-worth spell. In return, you suffer an additional 5 non-bleed damage. I thought without the extra damage, this might be too-powerful of an ability... but I could be wrong on that. How would you feel about the powerlevel if I took out that last sentence?
Infect By Spell: Haha, yes, re-reading that I can see my wording is all over the place. The intention is thus: You are afflicted with poison/disease X. You cast a spell, targeting a blood-having creature, that does damage. Upon taking the damage, the creature also is infected with X. You are not cured, and a successful save negates X.
Keep The Blood-A-Flowin': Ooo, I totally missed that. No, say she has fast healing X. Upon taking this ability, she instead has regeneration X. However, when her regeneration is negated, she still heals X as if she had fast healing, she simply doesn't gain the other benefits of regeneration (not dying, etc.).
Greater/Grand: No, once you hit that level whenever you may take a Blood Rite, you can instead choose a Greater/Grand. Though, I realize what I have typed up is not correct :)
Yes, I'd love to find more ideas for Rites. I think I hit writer's block a bit :)
Thanks again, I look forward to hearing more!