Was Bleed damage supposed to be this nasty?

[Fatespinner]

PRD wrote:

Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage).

This is the description of bleed straight from the PRD, verbatim. It actually specifies that only a spell which cures hit point damage can stop bleed damage (or a Heal check, but that's not the point of this discussion).

Ergo, the following means of restoring hit points, by RAW, do not effectively stop bleed damage from continuing:

• Channel Energy (Su)
• Lay on Hands (Su)
• Fast Healing (Ex)
• Regeneration (Ex)

Now, mind you, in the description for the rogue class's Bleeding Attack talent it says "any effect that heals hit point damage." With the Bleeding Critical feat, it says that any magical healing stops the effect. So that still leaves out Fast Healing and Regeneration, but channel and LoH will do the trick there.

But for bleed damage that comes from sources other than these, without specific caveats? According to RAW, you need an actual cure spell to be laid on you or make that Heal check to stop the arterial spray. :)

[Alexander Kilcoyne]

Its not too bad considering the bleed damage is usually pathetic on most bleeding effects; that and even someone with 7 wisdom can make that heal check 20% of the time.

[Gignere]

Fatespinner wrote:

PRD wrote:

Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage).

This is the description of bleed straight from the PRD, verbatim. It actually specifies that only a spell which cures hit point damage can stop bleed damage (or a Heal check, but that's not the point of this discussion).

Ergo, the following means of restoring hit points, by RAW, do not effectively stop bleed damage from continuing:

• Channel Energy (Su)
• Lay on Hands (Su)
• Fast Healing (Ex)
• Regeneration (Ex)

Now, mind you, in the description for the rogue class's Bleeding Attack talent it says "any effect that heals hit point damage." With the Bleeding Critical feat, it says that any magical healing stops the effect. So that still leaves out Fast Healing and Regeneration, but channel and LoH will do the trick there.

But for bleed damage that comes from sources other than these, without specific caveats? According to RAW, you need an actual cure spell to be laid on you or make that Heal check to stop the arterial spray. :)

Nah JJ clarified on another thread that any type of healing stops HP bleed damage.

[jasharen]

I personally don't find it overpowered, I find it downright broken.

I have two characters in my group that cause bleed damage, and after a couple rounds the cumulative bleed is rediculous.

As for a Heal check, a) full round action, b) provokes attacks of opportunity(which cause bleed lol). Enough said, I think my players would be overjoyed if the bad guy made an attempt to stop the bleeding.

And not every encounter I toss at my players can have a handy healer nearby to stop the bleeding.

I have been debating making the bleed damage more like the flame effect on a weapon, ie yes you do 1d6 (or however much the effect states) extra damage, once. It doesn't continue round to round.

[Howie23]

jasharen wrote:

I have two characters in my group that cause bleed damage, and after a couple rounds the cumulative bleed is rediculous.

I'm not 100% sure, but I have a little voice in the back of my head that says that bleed damage doesn't stack. Anyone else able to confirm this or am I just hearing little voices?

[Dragonsong]

jasharen wrote:

I personally don't find it overpowered, I find it downright broken.

I have two characters in my group that cause bleed damage, and after a couple rounds the cumulative bleed is rediculous.

As for a Heal check, a) full round action, b) provokes attacks of opportunity(which cause bleed lol). Enough said, I think my players would be overjoyed if the bad guy made an attempt to stop the bleeding.

And not every encounter I toss at my players can have a handy healer nearby to stop the bleeding.

I have been debating making the bleed damage more like the flame effect on a weapon, ie yes you do 1d6 (or however much the effect states) extra damage, once. It doesn't continue round to round.

not that every bad guy should have one but to put them off thier game

PRD wrote:

Scabbard of Stanching

Aura faint conjuration (healing); CL 5th

Slot belt; Price 5,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.

Description

This fine, red leather sheath is decorated with gold filigree. It fits any bladed slashing weapon. While worn, a scabbard of stanching protects against bleed damage. Anytime the wearer suffers a bleed effect, the scabbard automatically stanches it. It has no effect on bleed damage from effects that require a DC 16 or higher caster level or Heal check.

Construction

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, cure light wounds; Cost 2,500 gp

sanctified areas to evil gods that give thier followers fast healing 1

a villian druid may have 3 levels of warshaper if you allow 3.5 material for fast healing

and of course any critter with regenration

all of which stop that little tactic in its tracks

edit: Howie is correct

PRD wrote:

Bleed: A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.

[Fatespinner]

Howie23 wrote:

jasharen wrote:

I have two characters in my group that cause bleed damage, and after a couple rounds the cumulative bleed is rediculous.

I'm not 100% sure, but I have a little voice in the back of my head that says that bleed damage doesn't stack. Anyone else able to confirm this or am I just hearing little voices?

You are mostly correct, Howie, with the small exception that is the Bleeding Critical feat:

Bleeding Critical (Combat, Critical) wrote:

Your critical hits cause opponents to bleed profusely.

Prerequisites: Critical Focus, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a slashing or piercing weapon, your opponent takes 2d6 points of bleed damage (see Conditions) each round on his turn, in addition to the damage dealt by the critical hit. Bleed damage can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal skill check or through any magical healing. The effects of this feat stack.

Special: You can only apply the effects of one critical feat to a given critical hit unless you possess Critical Mastery.

And, honestly, for a feat that requires a +11 BAB, a prerequisite feat, AND only produces effects on a confirmed critical hit, I don't think it's too bad.

[Nixda]

Howie23 wrote:

jasharen wrote:

I have two characters in my group that cause bleed damage, and after a couple rounds the cumulative bleed is rediculous.

I'm not 100% sure, but I have a little voice in the back of my head that says that bleed damage doesn't stack. Anyone else able to confirm this or am I just hearing little voices?

SRD wrote:

Bleed

A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.

So far for the little voice.

Edit: Hmm, too slow.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

I think the intent is for any magical healing (spell or ability)to stop bleed effects. Even the lowly 0 level spell (the name escapes me) designed for just this case.

[Fatespinner]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

I think the intent is for any magical healing (spell or ability)to stop bleed effects. Even the lowly 0 level spell (the name escapes me) designed for just this case.

The spell you're thinking of is stabilize and it does not, in fact, stop bleeding effects. It only prevents someone who is already below 0 HP from continuing to lose HP each round, stabilizing them against death. If they sustain additional damage after you stabilize them, the process begins anew. In this case, bleed effects would continue damaging.

[jasharen]

Rogue bleed combined with Critical focus bleed I believe combine based on the statement in the critical focus where this effect stacks.

All I can think of everytime I read that is a dual wielding kukri dex based fighter with improved critical. At 11th level thats potentially 6 attacks criting on a 15+, for upwards of 12d6 a round of 'bleed' damage. On top of the base damage. And thats only the first round, round two you reach a potential of 24d6 a round (this is going from memory that the crit bleed is 2d6 per crit)

Now I admit the odds are much more likely to 'only' cause 4d6 damage cumulative a round in the above scenario (1/4 of attacks are potential crits)

As for the feat requirements, fighters get essentially a feat every level all said and done, so 2 or 3 feats is not much of an investment by 11th level (although I admit the above example requires a fair amount more, 6 I believe).

[thepuregamer]

I tend to not see bleed as all that bad. It doesn't tend to stack. So Multiple players in a party trying to do bleed damage will have to coordinate their damage types so as not to overlap. Furthermore the numbers aren't that high.

A rogue can deal bleed on a sneak attack equal to his number of SA dice. So by lvl 20 that is 10 bleed damage a turn which is not terribly impressive.

A crit build can deal 2d6 stacking bleed which is nice but not as impressive as many of the other crit feats you can use. A kukri bleed damage build might do well against crittable targets but that is because crit builds do very well against crittable targets in general. If you are dropping 2 crits on a target in a single round, chances are that you are applying multiple conditions a turn on a target before they die and they will die in 1 or 2 rounds.

The wounding enhancement is truly horrible. A +2 equivalent bonus that nets you 1 point of bleed that stacks. It will take 7 rounds on average to cover the difference in damage between wounding and 2 energy damage enhancements.

Truly bleed has its place. But this place is not most encounters since most encounters do not last more than 6 or so rounds. By your 6th round you are almost breaking even with other benefits. Bleed is just too slow to be considered game breaking.

[Dragonsong]

jasharen wrote:

Rogue bleed combined with Critical focus bleed I believe combine based on the statement in the critical focus where this effect stacks.

All I can think of everytime I read that is a dual wielding kukri dex based fighter with improved critical. At 11th level thats potentially 6 attacks criting on a 15+, for upwards of 12d6 a round of 'bleed' damage. On top of the base damage. And thats only the first round, round two you reach a potential of 24d6 a round (this is going from memory that the crit bleed is 2d6 per crit)

Now I admit the odds are much more likely to 'only' cause 4d6 damage cumulative a round in the above scenario (1/4 of attacks are potential crits)

As for the feat requirements, fighters get essentially a feat every level all said and done, so 2 or 3 feats is not much of an investment by 11th level (although I admit the above example requires a fair amount more, 6 I believe).

Rogue bleed says it dosent stack specifiaclly and the base rules say it dosent stack so the rogue with the highest sneak attack is the only one getting bleed an effectively from only one sneak attack.

Yes the critical proc feat should be exempt from the base rules and it is worded as such.

A theroretical 12d6 bleed is scary but: 4 magic items stop it cold one of which costs 5k gp so obtainable way before +11 BAB. A quickened CLW stops it cold. Getting fast healing 1 through some ability or effect stops it. It dosen't work on trolls, devils or other critters with regen/fast healing, nor on constructs undead. In short its wicked nice but not overpowered.

[mdt]

If you're allowing 3.5 stuff, then also note the vigor spells not only stop the bleed that's occurring, but because they do 1 hp per round healing, put the brakes on all future bleeding as well.