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Howdy. So, the Harrower Class. Why not PFS legal? I won't go into a long debate, I merely would like to know the why. Thanks!
I think it has a lot to do with the complex rules associated with the class and only that class. Also, any playing card decks (Harrower, Crit Hit, Crit Fumble, etc.) has not been approved for Society play and I doubt they ever will. It just seems like more of a hassle than necessary to introduce to Society play.
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I think it has a lot to do with the complex rules associated with the class and only that class. Also, any playing card decks (Harrower, Crit Hit, Crit Fumble, etc.) has not been approved for Society play and I doubt they ever will. It just seems like more of a hassle than necessary to introduce to Society play.
The summoner I have seems much more complicated then the Harrower would be. But that's just my opinion.
As far as the cards go, I can understand that. However, it gives a guide on how to do it in the Inner Sea World Guide without a deck, merely a d6 and a d8, as you can't be pure neutral as a harrower.
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I think it has a lot to do with the complex rules associated with the class and only that class. Also, any playing card decks (Harrower, Crit Hit, Crit Fumble, etc.) has not been approved for Society play and I doubt they ever will. It just seems like more of a hassle than necessary to introduce to Society play.The summoner I have seems much more complicated then the Harrower would be. But that's just my opinion.
As far as the cards go, I can understand that. However, it gives a guide on how to do it in the Inner Sea World Guide without a deck, merely a d6 and a d8, as you can't be pure neutral as a harrower.
Yeah, but you also can't be Evil in PFS, which does skew the crunch a bit.
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Diabolist is PFS legal.
Yeah, but you also can't be Evil in PFS, which does skew the crunch a bit.
Alignment: Lawful neutral
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Exactly. you have to be one speceific allignment, yet it is still legal. I think that skews the crunch, a bit.
Alignment: Lawful neutral
Erm. No :)
There's nothing in the Diabolist crunch that's alignment-dependant. On the other hand, the Harrower has mechanics that depend on alignments in the party, and if three alignments are taken out of the picture by the virtue of a PFS game, then the PrC doesn't quite work the same in non-PFS and PFS games.
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Erm. No :)
There's nothing in the Diabolist crunch that's alignment-dependant. On the other hand, the Harrower has mechanics that depend on alignments in the party, and if three alignments are taken out of the picture by the virtue of a PFS game, then the PrC doesn't quite work the same in non-PFS and PFS games.
That's like saying you can't play a cleric because you can't heal your party members with inflict spells because they aren't undead, that is.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Gorbacz, I don't see it the same way.
There are many campaigns outside of organized play that don't allow evil-aligned PCs. I think that if your proposal, that the Harrower PrC "depends on alignments in the party" and is only balanced properly if there are evil-aligned party members, were true, there would have been some advice about that in the description of the class.
(And wouldn't you think that other classes, from Cleric to Paladin, work better with a party that shares their alignment? They're PFS OP legal.)
My suspicion is that the Harrower isn't allowed because (1) it requires the player to bring a physical prop to the table as written, and (2) it invokes random chance baed on the player drawing cards from that prop.
I've spent a couple years as a professional magician, touring with a school show and entertaining table-to-table at clubs and restaurants. I was an amateur for years before that. I know lots of ways to cheat with a Harrow deck, from loading lots of Intelligence cards into the deck to simple sleights that would allow the player to draw the useful cards more often than not.
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That's like saying you can't play a cleric because you can't heal your party members with inflict spells because they aren't undead, that is.Erm. No :)
There's nothing in the Diabolist crunch that's alignment-dependant. On the other hand, the Harrower has mechanics that depend on alignments in the party, and if three alignments are taken out of the picture by the virtue of a PFS game, then the PrC doesn't quite work the same in non-PFS and PFS games.
Erm. No, again :)
If Harrower was legal, I can bet my hand that people would come up with "Evil alignments are not legal in PFS, so perhaps the Harrow card rules should be changed to reflect that?"
They don't with negative Clerics (for obvious reasons, you can't play undead).
Also:
The harrowing spell, which the Harrower gets auto, isn't PFS-legal (and I can see why - it has rather hazy rules for duration, and the last thing you want at a PFS table is players arguing if the are still under harrowing duration).
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Gorbacz, I don't see it the same way.
There are many campaigns outside of organized play that don't allow evil-aligned PCs. I think that if your proposal, that the Harrower PrC "depends on alignments in the party" and is only balanced properly if there are evil-aligned party members, were true, there would have been some advice about that in the description of the class.
(And wouldn't you think that other classes, from Cleric to Paladin, work better with a party that shares their alignment? They're PFS OP legal.)
My suspicion is that the Harrower isn't allowed because (1) it requires the player to bring a physical prop to the table as written, and (2) it invokes random chance baed on the player drawing cards from that prop.
I've spent a couple years as a professional magician, touring with a school show and entertaining table-to-table at clubs and restaurants. I was an amateur for years before that. I know lots of ways to cheat with a Harrow deck, from loading lots of Intelligence cards into the deck to simple sleights that would allow the player to draw the useful cards more often than not.
It doesn't require a prop, there are replacement dice rolls if you don't have one.
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Gorbacz, I don't see it the same way.
There are many campaigns outside of organized play that don't allow evil-aligned PCs. I think that if your proposal, that the Harrower PrC "depends on alignments in the party" and is only balanced properly if there are evil-aligned party members, were true, there would have been some advice about that in the description of the class.
(And wouldn't you think that other classes, from Cleric to Paladin, work better with a party that shares their alignment? They're PFS OP legal.)
My suspicion is that the Harrower isn't allowed because (1) it requires the player to bring a physical prop to the table as written, and (2) it invokes random chance baed on the player drawing cards from that prop.
I've spent a couple years as a professional magician, touring with a school show and entertaining table-to-table at clubs and restaurants. I was an amateur for years before that. I know lots of ways to cheat with a Harrow deck, from loading lots of Intelligence cards into the deck to simple sleights that would allow the player to draw the useful cards more often than not.
This is a perfectly good arguement, which is why, I think, the rules for using dice were put into the book. Though the chance to cheat is still there, how mnay people are going to bring loaded dice to the table and roll them in front of the gm to make sure the group gets a bonus +1 in a fight? The +1 is controlled by the GM during the adventure, and is therefore not a thing the player can just dump into one fight to make it as easy as possible.
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The harrowing spell, which the Harrower gets auto, isn't PFS-legal (and I can see why - it has rather hazy rules for duration, and the last thing you want at a PFS table is players arguing if the are still under harrowing duration).
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, F (a Harrow deck)
Range touch
Target one creature
Duration 1 day/level or until fulfilled
You use a Harrow deck to tell a fortune for yourself or
someone else. If you cast harrowing on another creature, you
must remain adjacent to the target for the duration of the
casting time. A harrowing must describe one set of events or
course of action (for example, “hunting down the pirate king,”
or “traveling to Viperwall to search for a magic sword”) that
the target of the spell intends to undertake at some point
during the spell’s duration.
If you have access to a Harrow deck, draw nine cards when
this spell is cast. If you do not have a Harrow deck, you can
simulate the draws by rolling a d6 and a d10 for each of the
nine cards, as detailed on page 293 of this book. Record the
ability score and alignment associated with each card. Each
of these cards grants a luck bonus or a penalty on a specific
type of d20 check; the magnitude of the penalty or bonus
depends upon how closely that particular card’s alignment
matches the target creature’s alignment. If the card and
target’s alignments are identical, that card provides a +2 luck
bonus on the associated suit’s check. If the card and target’s
alignments are of the opposite alignment (see below), the
card inflicts a –1 penalty on that associated check. If the card
has any other alignment, it provides a +1 luck bonus on the
associated suit’s check.
While penalties persist on all associated checks for as long
as the harrowing persists, the bonuses are one-use bonuses
that the harrowed character can “spend” at any time to modify
that card’s associated check. You can spend a bonus to modify
an appropriate roll after the die is rolled, but cannot spend
the bonus once you know the result of the roll. Since all of the
bonuses granted by a harrowing are luck bonuses, they do not
stack with each other. Penalties, on the other hand, do stack.
Once you spend all of the bonuses granted by a harrowing, or
once the spell’s duration ends, the spell ends and the penalties
are removed.
A single creature can only be under the effects of one
harrowing at a time. If it is subjected to a second harrowing
while a previous harrowing is still in effect, the new harrowing
automatically fails.
Duration 1 day/level or until fulfilled
Whichever comes first.
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Just a guess, but I would think that it is probably the Harrowing itself. Note that the harrowing spell is also not allowed, and neither is the Harrowed feat. And of course, the feat is a pre-req for the class.
Coming up with divination answers is something that often takes GMs a few minutes. It's one thing to have to deal with the occasional spell, but having a class who has daily readings as their central feature may not work well in an OP, time-limited situation.
As you said, dice could be used, and the Harrowing glossed over by the GM, but I agree with Joseph that it probably was considered to complicated a sub-system to be worthwhile for one Prestige Class.
EDIT: look at all them ninjas!
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** spoiler omitted **...The harrowing spell, which the Harrower gets auto, isn't PFS-legal (and I can see why - it has rather hazy rules for duration, and the last thing you want at a PFS table is players arguing if the are still under harrowing duration).
So, the harrowing duration is set to "until we free Sir Shmockbury's daughter".
The party enters the Shadowsurge Castle, barrages their way thru bugbears and liberate the young gal! Time to get outta there!
But alas, the last encounter is written to happen as they exit the Shadowsurge Castle!
PC: OK, I get my +2 luck bonus from harrowing and it takes it to...
DM: Sorry, you don't.
PC: Why? The harrowing was set to until we free the girl, she's still in danger and we haven't left the castle yet!
DM: Technically, you freed her. The spell is over.
PC: No no, you're interpreting it wrong...
DM: No, it's you.
PC: *Ravingdork Mode On* See, wait, let me get a similar discussion that happened on some forum 3 years ago...
Everybody else: Speed it up guys, slot finishes in 30mins and we have another game going...
See what I mean?
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So, the harrowing duration is set to "until we free Sir Shmockbury's daughter".The party enters the Shadowsurge Castle, barrages their way thru bugbears and liberate the young gal! Time to get outta there!
But alas, the last encounter is written to happen as they exit the Shadowsurge Castle!
PC: OK, I get my +2 luck bonus from harrowing and it takes it to...
DM: Sorry, you don't.
PC: Why? The harrowing was set to until we free the girl, she's still in danger and we haven't left the castle yet!
DM: Technically, you freed her. The spell is over.
PC: No no, you're interpreting it wrong...
DM: No, it's you.
PC: *Ravingdork Mode On* See, wait, let me get a similar discussion that happened on some forum 3 years ago...
Everybody else: Speed it up guys, slot finishes in 30mins and we have another game going...See what I mean?
No, actually, I don't. If a player is arguing with the gm over a +1, which was outlined at the beginning of the module exactly when it would end, you have a bigger problem then a +1. Speceifically, that player.
See, a bad player can ruin any situation, no mater how it is dealt with. However, just because a bad player does something wrong, or stupid, why should the rest of us be limited? No mater what they play, they are going to mess something up. So, let the rest of us have our fun, and get on with it.
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So, the harrowing duration is set to "until we free Sir Shmockbury's daughter".The party enters the Shadowsurge Castle, barrages their way thru bugbears and liberate the young gal! Time to get outta there!
But alas, the last encounter is written to happen as they exit the Shadowsurge Castle!
PC: OK, I get my +2 luck bonus from harrowing and it takes it to...
DM: Sorry, you don't.
PC: Why? The harrowing was set to until we free the girl, she's still in danger and we haven't left the castle yet!
DM: Technically, you freed her. The spell is over.
PC: No no, you're interpreting it wrong...
DM: No, it's you.
PC: *Ravingdork Mode On* See, wait, let me get a similar discussion that happened on some forum 3 years ago...
Everybody else: Speed it up guys, slot finishes in 30mins and we have another game going...See what I mean?
No, actually, I don't. If a player is arguing with the gm over a +1, which was outlined at the beginning of the module exactly when it would end, you have a bigger problem then a +1. Speceifically, that player.
See, a bad player can ruin any situation, no mater how it is dealt with. However, just because a bad player does something wrong, or stupid, why should the rest of us be limited? No mater what they play, they are going to mess something up. So, let the rest of us have our fun, and get on with it.
While I do agree, I also think that convention play ruleset should minimize the amount of situations where such scenario can happen.
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Using the Harrow deck has no mechanical in-game function. So long as you aren't time constrained it could be used as a prop for diplomacy checks etc. and the GM could give you a bonus on the check for great roleplay. However it is not an official part of the campaign (just like the critical hit / fumble decks) so it doesn't have an official, mechanical, use.
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Could you use it for a very elaborate intimidate?
Example : We have a target who is accused of stealing something but the law has no proof. A coincidental meeting with a gypsy sort might give him the shakes to make him paranoid enough to spill the beans or do something reckless etc...
Or even an intimidate along the same lines as a Divine prophecy of DEATH AND DOOM TO YOU ALL!