Cave Druid, Wildshape, and Blindsense / Blindsight

[Drillboss D]

Hey all,

The Cave Druid archetype from APG has the ability to wild shape into oozes as though using Beast Shape III.

Now, pretty much all of the oozes have blindsight, which beast shape clearly doesn't grant. Since blindsense is listed as almost a lesser version of blindsight, would it be reasonable to ask that a druid receive blindsense as though the ooze had blindsense out to the same distance as it's actual blindsight? Is there some sort of ruling about this? Because if not it seems like turning into an ooze is pretty hampering.

Thanks,
Drillboss

[Drillboss D]

Nothin'?

[Sangalor]

Drillboss D wrote:

Hey all,

The Cave Druid archetype from APG has the ability to wild shape into oozes as though using Beast Shape III.

Now, pretty much all of the oozes have blindsight, which beast shape clearly doesn't grant. Since blindsense is listed as almost a lesser version of blindsight, would it be reasonable to ask that a druid receive blindsense as though the ooze had blindsense out to the same distance as it's actual blindsight? Is there some sort of ruling about this? Because if not it seems like turning into an ooze is pretty hampering.

Thanks,
Drillboss

Per RAW it's not allowed as you already mentioned. Difficult call - I was first going to say no, but after thinking about it I would allow it. I believe it's just an oversight and argue that it makes no sense that you get low-light vision, scent, darkvision etc. but not the only available means of sight for a creature you turn into. After all, there is usually no way to turn into a ooze, so the spell needs to be adapted in that regard. So im my game you would be fine with that :-)

I just looked it up, there are some cool things about the ooze: "When in ooze form, the cave druid has no discernible anatomy and is immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits."
You can dissolve doors, block paths, really make enemy rogues hate you... Nice.

[Drillboss D]

Thanks.

And yea, there are definitely some cool things about turning into an ooze. i really like the idea that the slithering tracker in the room is controlling the cyclops the monsters are fighting. Oozes have a lot of nifty tricks.

However, one of the default forms for a caster druid is a bat or dire bat, and it seems ugly to me that turning into a bat gives blindsense while turning into an ooze with blindsight gives nothing. It looks like ALL oozes have blindsight though, so it's a bummer that they didn't call this out explicitly when it would be coming up every time a cave druid uses his specially given ability.

I'll see if my GM is cool with the idea. It'd be really nice to hear someone weigh in about the RAI here.

[Drillboss D]

However, the immunity to poison is redundant with a tenth level druid.

[Mojorat]

ooze form has to have blind sense/sight otherwise it would be a waste. oozes have no eyes they cannot see without this ability.

[Sangalor]

Drillboss D wrote:

However, the immunity to poison is redundant with a tenth level druid.

Well, you're not always in ooze form, or are you? ;-)

[Nixda]

I'm with Sangalor in the "probably an oversight" camp. Klicky -> Faq

[Furious Kender]

I'm going to bump this, as I'm trying to play a cave druid and for the life of me I cannot see how turning into a blind ooze with no way of seeing could ever be seen as an advantage.

[Furious Kender]

Another example, say you turn into a Gelatinous Cube. So you are now completely blind, and you don't have any of the ooze special abilities, such as acid, engulf, paralysis, etc. You are not even transparent. All you get from this is +6 str and a 1d6 slam attack, which is an uber level 12 ability.......

Balemorph polymorph can be better than this.

[blackbloodtroll]

This makes me wonder about the Flesh to Ooze spell.

[Furious Kender]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

This makes me wonder about the Flesh to Ooze spell.

Well, sadly, you actually would be more combat effective by casting Flesh to Ooze on yourself than if you turn into a ooze via wildshape.

At least Flesh to Ooze gives you the creature special abilities, which lets you do little things like see.

[blackbloodtroll]

Flesh to Ooze spell can improve some familiars.

[Horselord]

I wonder if "Flesh to Ooze" is a precedent for gaining standard ooze abilities (blindsight, acid, transparency, etc.) when polymorphing into an ooze. Why has there been no official ruling on this yet?!!!!

[Drakkiel]

I wouldn't say it was necessarily an "oversight" but since there are a lot of things in pathfinder that are written way after the CRB I would allow one or the other, sight or sense. Someone that was unfamiliar with what Beast Shape actually gave the character may have written that archetype and therefore did not know that he/she wasn't giving you that ability.

[blackbloodtroll]

What senses do you have in Ooze shape?

[Drakkiel]

Again I would say u gain blindsense at least...RAW no but again it was written later and probably without full knowledge of what beast shape gave the character...I'll clicky for a FAQ though

[Jeff Clem]

If you check out the SRD Beast shape III IV you get Blind Sense 30ft.

[Taenia]

Which doesn't help because Oozes give you blindsight not blindsense. Furthermore while you can get a lesser form of an ability if the creature this may not apply in a situation like this.

Furthermore blindsense only tells you what square so everything has total concealment from you.