So I'm starting a new game this week and the DM has said that it won't hack n' slash, more roleplay/ political intrigue oriented, though he stated that there will be plenty of combat. I decided on a drow sorceress. I've never played a sorcerer before, and am intrigued by a mage with charisma as the prime requisite. I also never started out a spellcaster at 1st level, being more of a rogue/ranger type of guy.
So she has a 20 CHA, 16 DEX, 14 INT, with ranks in bluff, intimidate, know arcana, sense motive, spellcraft, and use MD. I took the skill point rather than HP. I bought her a rapier and a light crossbow and gave her weapon finesse as a feat, with suspicious (+4 sense motive w/rank) and reactionary (+2 Init) as traits. For spells I was thinking Disguise Self (seems like it would come in handy in an intrigue game) and Color Spray.
From where I'm sitting, this character looks pretty badass, even with 7 HP and AC 13. She has melee and ranged attacks at a +3 bonus. She can cast darkness to get herself out of a jam, and disguise herself if she can't dispatch whatever pickle she's gotten into in under a minute (with a +9 bluff to back it up).
On the other hand, this DM can play a rough game (I've seen at least four PCs get killed since September), and the hint is that this will be a deep end/ not for beginners campaign.
Any thoughts? Should I be picking different spells?
Also, other than a 1st level drow have a penalty for casting darkness (a 2nd-level, racially granted spell)?
If it's political intrigue among a bunch of surface elves, and you're a drow, you might have already lost any ability to influence anything. I'd check your race with the DM before finalizing.
Drow are feared and mistrusted by far more than just other elves...
Weapon Finesse? I think that's wasted on a character that shouldn't get within 30 feet of melee.
Right. Unless drow are commonplace in your campaign, disguise self won't be enough. If they are, you'll still be feared and mistrusted, even if it's all drow.
Go urban druid -- if you live to sixth level you can fix that embarrassing drow problem.
I hear what you're saying, but I'm sort of looking forward to the challenge. Doesn't a 20 CHA alleviate some of that racial mistrust?
Pretty sure this is going to be in a mostly human area, though I could be wrong. And I have been in talks with the DM about playing a drow. His response was basically "roll it up and be prepared to roleplay your ass off."
Yeah a Cha 20 helps -- it gives you a +5 bonus against the -20 (what the heck is the evil elf saying and why would I ever believe him) penalty.
Weapon Finesse? I think that's wasted on a character that shouldn't get within 30 feet of melee.
My thinking was that the melee would find me at 1st level, and I ought to be prepared for it. Also it gets me attacks of opportunity.
Weapon Finesse? I think that's wasted on a character that shouldn't get within 30 feet of melee.My thinking was that the melee would find me at 1st level, and I ought to be prepared for it. Also it gets me attacks of opportunity.
Mechanically speaking, weapon finesse is a poor choice for an arcane caster unless you're going to multi-class into rogue or something. 95% of the time you can take a 5-foot step and cast a spell, no melee required. You're better served by taking Dodge imo.
Improved initiative, toughness, and/or the mage armor spell will do more for you than plusses to hit with a rapier. A sorcerer who's better than most with a rapier is still pretty lousy with a rapier.
I recommend Imp Init. You have good dex. Go first (much of the time), and get away from threats.
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I'm very skeptical of any claims that a game is not going to be "hack'n'slash" but will have "plenty of combat". Having low HP in this case is NOT a good idea.
As for Weapon Finesse, ask yourself "How often am I going to be winning battles with my melee attacks? Do I have the Str bonus to actually damage enemies I get in melee with?" If you say 'not often/no' to those questions, DO NOT get Weapon Finesse. More HP or AC from Toughness/Dodge will help you in more situations. Or Improved Initiative to stop fights before they even start.
I see your point. Color me talked out of weapon finesse.
Thanks for the advice, all.
So I seem to be presented with either a +1 to AC, 3 HP, or +4 init (bringing the total to 9).
On the other hand I'm starting to think about starting her as a rogue and adding sorcerer at 2nd level (if she survives).
Thoughts?
I see your point. Color me talked out of weapon finesse.
Thanks for the advice, all.
So I seem to be presented with either a +1 to AC, 3 HP, or +4 init (bringing the total to 9).
On the other hand I'm starting to think about starting her as a rogue and adding sorcerer at 2nd level (if she survives).
Thoughts?
Some people will tell you that's a bad idea. I'm not one of them. You might also consider a level of bard (knowledge and people skills, plus CLW without a wand, and 2 extra spells due to high Cha, and you'll be swimming in cantrips). If it's that harsh of an intrigue campaign, the bard skill list is nice.
I am running a "palace intrigue" campaign right now. Part of the plot requires that the party gain the respect of the local Lord (really a king in scope and wealth) and his Captain of the Guard. That means the party has to both be able to succeed diplomatically, and they have to be proficient in combat. So the combat is actually part of the diplomacy.
Much of the action is planned to take place inside the palace. But that doesn't mean there won't be combat. I have several encounters planned already that occur within the palace itself. A major part of the plot has to do with high ranking nobles and visiting dignitaries being threatened and potentially killed (depending on what the party does). In some cases if the party cannot use their diplomatic skills to convince a potential target that they are a potential target and to take appropriate precautions, the party is going to have to fight off assassins or summoned NPCs who will attempt to carry out the assassinations.
Another part of the plot requires the party to help negotiate an end to a multi-generational feud between two rival royal families. If they are unsuccessful in the attempt to negotiate peace, they will likely have to fight their way out of the enemy camp.
Then there's the whole hidden plot that leads up to a dramatic climax that will require both clans to join to defeat.
So yeah, lots of combat. Lots of diplomacy. Hope it's lots of fun. But what happens will depend on the party's social skills as it will their combat skills. Or that's the plan anyway.
I would not want to play in a campaign that truly was totally social skills and intrigue. I want some action in my RPG.
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So I'm starting a new game this week and the DM has said that it won't hack n' slash, more roleplay/ political intrigue oriented, though he stated that there will be plenty of combat.
Riiiiight. That just means that, instead of wading straight into dungeons, you BS with a lot of shady city characters before being ambushed in dark alleys.
-- Make a gish; I recommend figh1/rogu/sorc/arcane-trickster. A high-con race without any mental dumps is your ticket. Get important rogue skills in orbit.
You didn't say if it was point-buy or rolling; I assume rolling....
Gnome
STR: least important stat; however, if all of your rolls are high, put a 3rd or 4th 15(->13) here to quality for Power Attack.
DEX: very important
CON: important
INT: unimportant, but keep positive
WIS: unimportant, but keep positive
CHA: very important
Role: sorcery-assisted rogue, or figh1/bardX (with archery feats).
Fighter at 1st-level for max hitpoints and all profs.
Feats: PBS and Precise Shot.
TOZ> As for Weapon Finesse, ask yourself "How often am I going to be winning battles with my melee attacks? Do I have the Str bonus to actually damage enemies I get in melee with?" If you say 'not often/no' to those questions, DO NOT get Weapon Finesse. More HP or AC from Toughness/Dodge will help you in more situations. Or Improved Initiative to stop fights before they even start.
I must disagree with this; a DEX:20/STR:13 rogue with Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, and stellar AC is a formidable opponent. Toss in Arcane Strike and Mirror Image, and they will cut your ass to ribbons.
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I must disagree with this; a DEX:20/STR:13 rogue with Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, and stellar AC is a formidable opponent. Toss in Arcane Strike and Mirror Image, and they will cut your ass to ribbons.
But I was not responding to a player asking about Weapon Finesse for a rogue.
The rogue you outline would answer 'almost always/I have other damage bonuses', meaning he has a reason to use Weapon Finesse.
A single classed sorcerer whose melee attacks are a last resort? Does not have a reason to take it.
I do agree about the arcane trickster course, although I think the OP wanted to try a more traditonal caster this time.
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Why did you take use magic device? Because you want to use divine magic items or becuse you want to be able to use nay magic items...because you can already use all arcane magic items.
Take Perception instead. I know that it's not a class skill for a sorcerer, but a good perception goes a long way...in any kind of campaign.
So I'm starting a new game this week and the DM has said that it won't hack n' slash, more roleplay/ political intrigue oriented, though he stated that there will be plenty of combat.Riiiiight. That just means that, instead of wading straight into dungeons, you BS with a lot of shady city characters before being ambushed in dark alleys.
Knowing my DM, my assumption is that the combat will be actually be more difficult, possibly with things like hostage situations or the like.
Even though I've never taken fighter, I don't want to play one this time around and hope that someone else does. To me the advantage of starting as rogue (double the skill points, extra hp, sneak attack) seems worth holding off on 1st level spells and elemental sorcerer rays for a level.
And I think I'm too into the idea of playing a high CHA Drow to turn my back on it now. When I asked my DM what I could expect in Diplomacy penalties his first response was "muahahaha", but he followed up by saying it would never be more than -5 (though he didn't mention elves). And wouldn't being feared/mistrusted actually help with a lot of bluff and Intimidate rolls? ("You don't want to talk? Fair enough; your flanks look juicy and I haven't eaten yet.")
As of now her stats (rolled and adjusted) are
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 11
CHA 20
People will probably be down my throat for keeping her Strength so low, but I am taking Weapon Finesse and going for the Poisoner archetype; I'm hoping DM lets me start with some Drow Poison, which I think (hope?) will alleviate a lack of strength bonus.
How common/often is that you hear of people starting in their unfavored class?
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Well, like I said, Weapon Finesse will mean you get a +3 on melee attacks instead of +0. It will probably come in handy for the first level or so, but as things increase you may regret it. I'll stop harping on it now.
You don't have a penalty to rolls involving Str, so it's not that bad. Sneak attack will let you deal greatsword damage without flat bonuses, so it will be very swingy. Drow poison will help for the first level or so, but enemy saves will quickly outpace the static DC. If they fail, they're dead, if they save, you're dead.
As to favored class, how often do people start out working in a job they were suited for? ;) There's no cause to force people to start in their favored class, otherwise there would be many people in the game world with favored class: commoner or aristocrat.
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Awesome stats for a sorc/trickster (if that's what she's making; especially if a gnome...do hope it's a gnome or a halfling, as I dislike CON less than 14 in a rogue unless they have an edge, such as extra AC for small size).STR 10
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 11
CHA 20
How common/often is that you hear of people starting in their unfavored class?In Pathfinder it's almost a gimme to start a gish or combat-oriented rogue or cleric as fighter or barbarian at 1st (because there's no skill penalty for not taking the high-skill race at 1st as in 3.5).
...poisons....
What TOZ said. Don't "design" a character around poison-use, as it's only good at low level when opponents don't beat the saves -- and in a home-game, they're saves go up just as soon as the DM is tired of it.
Thanks for all the advice. I did stick to starting my character as a rogue w/ Weapon Finesse, w. favored class in Sorcerer.
As a followup: played the first day of this campaign. After rolling up characters, etc, what did the first enemy turn out to be? Goblin scouts. Without minis. On graph paper.
I did have fun interrogating the survivor (our mission was to bring back a prisoner alive), as my drow was the only character that spoke goblin. With my huge bluff and intimidates (for 1st level) I convinced him that if he didn't talk, I'd eat him. Since this is a biweekly game, it'll probably be a while before I even get to level her up to sorcerer.
So this character made it through her second session and had a few memorable moments. Like when a new player showed up as a 1st level Barbarian by howling a greeting at us in the middle of the night, right after we interrogated the goblin. The drow promptly snuck up behind him and put a dagger against his genitals as a warning. When he tried to wriggle away, I slashed him with drow poison (against the thigh - I'm not mean enough to castrate the guy five minutes into his first session). He failed his save, which means I dropped the tank with one roll! (three if you count the stealth rolls) That was pretty rewarding, especially after I've been griping about the uselessness of poison on these forums.
Later on the other rogue and I owned an encounter with goblin guards and successfully accomplished our mission. That and a few random encounters in the woods meant that I got to level! The upside of these biweekly sessions is that they last for 6 hours, so I should advance quicker than I thought.
So- now I'm faced with a choice. I'm pretty set on making her an arcane trickster. This means I'll have to take at least three levels of Rogue. So do I take a level of sorcerer, getting me elemental acid rays and two spells? Or do I level as a rogue, get the BAB, Evasion, extra skills and HP, and Two Weapon Fighting as a Rogue Talent? I'm leaning toward the latter, since it means I basically get a feat per level for my first three. On the other hand the party does already have a rogue and Disguise Self might have already come in handy on at least one occasion.
Thoughts?
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Don't get too smug with your poison -- that barbarian rolled under 10. A 2nd-level raging dwarf fighter/barbarian with a starting CON of 16 will fail a DC:13 poison save only by rolling a 1. Most other tank types are similarly 95% immune by 5th or 6th level.
Str=low/Dex=high ... taking TWF without Weapon Finesse is instant nerf.
Arcane Tricksters are rewarding builds, but very complicated.
Don't get too smug with your poison -- that barbarian rolled under 10. A 2nd-level raging dwarf fighter/barbarian with a starting CON of 16 will fail a DC:13 poison save only by rolling a 1. Most other tank types are similarly 95% immune by 5th or 6th level.
Str=low/Dex=high ... taking TWF without Weapon Finesse is instant nerf.
Arcane Tricksters are rewarding builds, but very complicated.
Took Weapon Finesse as my first level feat. And after her first session, I decided to trade my light crossbow in for a bolo of daggers to throw. And I am anything but smug about PF poison - http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/poisonUse
Still grappling with this dilemma. The level of rogue (BAB, combat feat, Evasion, skills, HP) seems like the obvious choice... except that the party already has a rogue, and with a (kind of useless) cleric and a summoner, feels a little light on spells to me. The idea with this character was always to make her a sorcerer (a gish, really), and sorcerer is her favored class. If I go with sorcerer for 2nd, I'll still make her a rogue at 3rd, meaning that I'd take 2 feats at that point (TWF and Focus: Illusion). I feel like I should probably spread the goodies out a little more. And it's more likely to keep her alive to see third level.
Doesn't a 20 CHA alleviate some of that racial mistrust?
'Mistrust' is my neighbour across the hall with the funny beard and strange accent.
Drow is well past 'mistrust'.
Some Demons have a 18-20CHA too, yet even if they were off delivering the "I have a dream" speech I haven't come across a Paladin yet that didn't immediately try to gut it like a fish no questions - other players usually right behind him.
So yeah I'd ask a lot of questions of your GM first, as even in the most liberal intrigue game you are going to be very limited in utility other than as an agent of the other PC's.
Doesn't a 20 CHA alleviate some of that racial mistrust?'Mistrust' is my neighbour across the hall with the funny beard and strange accent.
Drow is well past 'mistrust'.
Some Demons have a 18-20CHA too, yet even if they were off delivering the "I have a dream" speech I haven't come across a Paladin yet that didn't immediately try to gut it like a fish no questions - other players usually right behind him.
So yeah I'd ask a lot of questions of your GM first, as even in the most liberal intrigue game you are going to be very limited in utility other than as an agent of the other PC's.
Ah, but a 20 CHA can mean a lot of things. In this case I play up racial (racist?) fear and mistrust and try to use it to my advantage, intimidating and scaring people to complete my goals.
Took Weapon Finesse as my first level feat.Why not at 2nd level for free via Rogue Talent?
Good question. The original plan wasn't even to have her be a rogue, but a sorcerer with Weapon Finesse as a feat. Never having played a sorcerer before, I decided to run it by this messageboard (see above) and quickly came to realize that I was basically trying to turn this sorcerer like a gish without doing the research, and that the character was probably going to end up being half-assed on both ends. So I decided to start her as a rogue, but I would only take the one level of rogue and thereafter stick to sorcerer. This justified taking Weapon Finesse, which is something I really didn't want to give up - I guess I have a thing for high dex characters and have yet to build one that could use their dex bonus as a melee attack.
It was only after my first session with her (a session that was dominated by a lot of character creation, exposition, etc) that I realized a few things. One was a light crossbow was an absolute waste of this character's move action (but that's okay, the character learned it at the same time, and adjusted). Another was that I can't rely on drow poison to soften the bad guys for me (although Barbarians seem to another story...?) Another was that I didn't want to have to give up her rogue powers or the spells, and so arcane trickster seemed like the logical path to go down.
Here's a dream scenario I have for this character - she gets surrounded by thugs wielding torches. They move against her and she casts darkness, then proceeds to dispatch as many as she's able for the duration (since I leveled at the end of last session, that's two minutes). Weapon Finesse seemed kind of required. Sneak attack definitely helps. And Two-Weapon fighting would probably help. But as a backup, if there are baddies still up when the spell is over (or if she just can't get the job done, for whatever reason), she could cast disguise self and pretend like she's one of them, or even their leader, or maybe just an innocent bystander, and avoid getting herself squished.
It may be a pipe dream, but I'm happy that I've built a character that's quick-thinking and flexible enough that she seems to have a job to do no matter what the situation, and has yet to be dropped. The level in Rogue would make her more dangerous but the level in sorcerer would let her use elemental rays to keep her distance from some of the deadlier stuff (like the random cockatrice that attacked us in the woods). And disguise self would probably help me insure that a lot more attacks get their sneak attack bonus.
Since it's the second time you mentioned it, I feel like I should probably tell you that drow are not generally known for eating people/cannibalism. Torture, sure. Cannibalism, not so much.
A goblin minion doesn't know that. And really, neither does anyone who fails against my bluff check, yes?
Since it's the second time you mentioned it, I feel like I should probably tell you that drow are not generally known for eating people/cannibalism. Torture, sure. Cannibalism, not so much.A goblin minion doesn't know that. And really, neither does anyone who fails against my bluff check, yes?
What are you going to do? Bluff that if the goblin doesn't do what you want, you're going to eat yourself? I'm not seeing how bluffing about you eating your own race is going to intimidate someone :)