Ive seen alot of people that seem to like psionics to work exactly like spells much in the way 3.5 portrayed them. if you went magic psionic transperancy they might as well of been the same thing aside form one working on a pool and the other not. i personnally think this kills the flavor. its not psionics then just another mage type.
Id like to see psionics as a bit more unique without it being unbalanceing. (just give psi res to magic res and it shouldn't be worse then magic)
i didn't like that all psionic abilitys where divided up like spells. 1-9
id rather see something more like ad&d just majors and minors that scale as you level. let you modify basic powers as you level up example:
telekinsis
lift x/level
advancements
disarm
trip
shield
wield weapon at range
burst
bull rush (i could go on)
just have to set them to appropriate level
let you gain increases to previous ones and new ones as you level up so you could take any power at first and then enhance it as you level up while gaining new things.
energykinses (choose an energy type)
resistance
bolt
area
etc.
body alterations
feather fall
claws.
let them be powered by pp ost goes up as you add more abilities.
from that you could go alot of directions
telepathy
mind over matter etc.
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I completely agree. Kinda tooling around with a homebrew class, harder than I thought to balance. But I always kinda figured that psions were generally born to a natural talent and it becomes natural to them. So for a telekinetic it would more or less end up as a fighter who can transcend distance. Someone who could actually toss around enemies.
Even for a pyrokinetic I think it can be viable to opt out for spells
I will give you my honest opinion on the subject. Before you go nuts, understand that this is exactly that and nothing more.
After seeing them try and shoehorn yet another variant system for handling what is essentially just magic with a different name into 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 3.5, and 4th edition, my answer to your question is:
"I would like psionics to work in a different game."
I don't view this like guns or something where there's a place for them, but the main polarizing force is people not wanting gunpowder in their fantasy game, I view psionics as something that's just unnecessary. All it is a different way of arbitrating magical effects that not only usually ends up completely unbalanced (either too strong when they "go nova" or too weak to compensate for the fact they're too strong when they go nova), but also comes with 15 years of baggage of player dislike and distrust.
Making psionics magical is the only way it really works in a fantasy campaign, entering psionics as an alternate formerly unsupported way of non-magic makes it too powerful. There will be practically no defenses against psions innate or through magics and this will make it more powerful than it should be.
I agree that the powers are in some cases 'too magical' in flavor, but too many people agree on what psionics actually should be, I didnt think 3.x was that bad really.
A psionic system I would like borrowing from AD&D a bit is much like the Boook of Nine Swords (3.5), essentially it still has powers by level from 1 to 9 to gauge relative power and availibility tis works fine. It does also follow the prerequiste powers system and has several disciplines, if I was going to rewrite psionics I'd start with that book as a baseline.
The powers would ofcourse not be so focused on fighting styles, but thematically it suits psionics really well and offers an alternative system guideline for the traditional disciplines, names like diamond mind and shadow are names perfect for psionic disciplines in a fantasy campaign.
I've got limit game experience with Psionics but what there was and from what I've read is just another form of magic.
I would like it if Psionics was very focused around mind control and compulsion, along with things like telepathy and soul effects.
After all that's what made the monsters like mind flayers scary.
Being able to influence the physical world like telekinesis, meh - we've got magic, both arcane and divine, for that.
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I will give you my honest opinion on the subject. Before you go nuts, understand that this is exactly that and nothing more.
After seeing them try and shoehorn yet another variant system for handling what is essentially just magic with a different name into 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 3.5, and 4th edition, my answer to your question is:
"I would like psionics to work in a different game."
THUMBS UP. (I could say the same thing about all the variant spellcasters as well.)
Keep psionics in Supers and Star Wars games where they belong -- if you're not weaving mana or channeling a God's will, it's not epic fantasy.
(Gunpower weapons I don't mind if given a late Renaissance or Steampunk fantasy setting, and since they're not as good as a longbow in elven hands anyway.)
I think the pro psionics crowd often mixes it with mysticism which often viewed as a form of mental magic.
The only two ways I can think of two implement is to make it a variant magic(spell casting) system or make them into SU's which I think is a bad idea. You can't dispel, disrupt, or counter spell an SU. They never provoke. In short a lot of the limitations of spells goes out the window. I did like psionics as it was for the most part. The crystals were something I will never miss though.
Psionics = Magic. Psionics should not even get a pool with which to cast spells. All they get is to call their "Magic Missile" "Force Missile" instead.
The up side of this approach, I've been able to play psionics in Pathfinder for years now.
First, I open my copy of Psionics Unleashed.
Second, I use Psionics Unleashed.
Third, I enjoy the psionics rules inside.
Keep psionics in Supers and Star Wars games where they belong -- if you're not weaving mana or channeling a God's will, it's not epic fantasy.
Hilariously enough, D&D magic is neither of these - and 3.5 psionics does the weaving just fine. Looks like wizards are going in Star Wars and psionics are here to stay ;)
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First, I open my copy of Psionics Unleashed.
Second, I use Psionics Unleashed.
Third, I enjoy the psionics rules inside.
Keep psionics in Supers and Star Wars games where they belong -- if you're not weaving mana or channeling a God's will, it's not epic fantasy.Hilariously enough, D&D magic is neither of these - and 3.5 psionics does the weaving just fine. Looks like wizards are going in Star Wars and psionics are here to stay ;)
I'd say "I open anything by Dreamscarred Press". They got their psionics right.
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I've seen alot of people that seem to like psionics to work exactly like spells much in the way 3.5 portrayed them. if you went magic psionic transperancy they might as well of been the same thing aside form one working on a pool and the other not.
I kinda like the Complete Psychic's system, from Green Ronin (and reprinted in their Advanced Player's Guide). Feats to know specific types of psychic stuff (like telekinesis) and then class skills to determine what level of effect you can produce with them.
The Trinity Player's Guide also had a neat system, where you spent successes on improvements to a base range, duration, damage / weight lifted, etc. A telekinetic might be able to lift small items for free all day long, but lifting something heavy or doing something impressive might require an expenditure of some sort, or some personal strain, or a really good die roll.
I'd prefer if psychic/psionic stuff was weaker than magic, but usable all day long, at a basic level, with an option to push it causing fatigue or personal injury, to make 'nova-ing' a possibility, but not often.
Heck, the 4e system would probably work better for psionics, with 'at will' powers and some 'per day' powers...
Personally I've never had a problem with psionics in my games. We used the supplement in 2nd edition and in 3rd. Actualyl I seem to recall us using the old 1st edition version in 2nd edition before they released the complete psionist's handbook back in the day.
Recently though we haven't been using it. And I've been toying with the idea/wondering why the following can't work:
Why not just take the powers that don't overlap existing spells and form it into another school of magic. This would lose the psionics are different feel I suppose. But that could be recaptured through a new class. Sort of like how the Sorcerer and Oracle are different takes on Wizard and Cleric.
Im not saying do it exactly like 1st. just the idea of scaleing and not having powers broken into spell levels. people that don't want psionics aside. is there ways you would like to see it implemented. i see some like it feeling like magic which i don't understand. im familiar with the trinity version where psychic was a template. id like to see them work as a basic power that you can enhance and then gain new powers as you level that you can enhance as well it would make every one unique give plenty of room for archtypes and feats specilization and keep the class entertaining.
you would have one power that would have a bunch of diffrent uses
then others that had fewer.
i look at building it similar to feat trees. you have to have this preq to get this power etc.
as long as its not set up like spells 1-9 powers i don't think it will feel to much like magic. no defenses however should be saves as all things are.
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I'm not trying to plug this homebrew class, but just as an extremely rough example, this kind of what i figured a psion (specifically a telepath) would kind of look like. Hidden so you don't have to wade through it, essentially the Telekinetic has multiple paths to open his power and as he levels he gets a larger range to grab from, gets a basic force attack, and 1st and every even level goes down the path of mental power mixed with upbringing. I only have the pure telekinetic roughly done (I know it can't be balanced at this point) but in one of the spoiler sections there are quick summaries for other paths including arcane and divine. But this is what I think would be neat, not sure if it's similar to anything.
Fast overview of power sources (Focuses)
Symbol: A tattoo or painted design. Each mark is unique to the telekinetic though many have similarities based on background. A third eye drawn on the forehead, a magic symbol on the palm, or even a painted mark on a bit of clothing. The symbol focuses on raw strength and channeling fervor. As they level they gain the ability to quick bond and extend the range of their CMB with increased damage and throwing range.
Divine symbol: Using a symbol of faith to show their connection to their faith these telekinetic, through either force of will or divine favor they can create holy energy in their bonded items. Divine symbol users will be able to change bonded items into holy devices and create protections or offenses surrounding their beliefs. At highest level they can make a bonded item a true symbol of belief gifted with divine spell power.
Spellbook: Occasionally those entering the arcane arts unlock their own inner potential. Such telekinetics still have a connection to the arcane arts and thus mix these abilities. They store a series of bonded items magically in their spellbook as well as spells as a wizard level half of their telekinetic level. They can summon as many bonded items as normally allowed as well as enchant them with known spells. They can spend 8 hours rest to mentally alter their bonded pages with new enchantments to strengthen their bonded items.
Crystal: Either crystal ball or rough uncut gem from the earth, the structure of the crystal calls to the telekinetic as a form of order in his fluid mind. He is able to focus his mind and gathers a greater number of bonded items and control over them. As his power grows the crystal will share his will power and provide enhanced mental defenses.
Puppet: Either a lucky doll or toy, this Telekinetic is capable of controlling a number of items as one and as if they were living creature. As they grow in strength they gain the ability to combine larger bits to create a stronger construct or multiple smaller ones using the same items. At highest levels they can use their constructs to straight jacket enemies or enhance allies and their focus will upgrade to the status of familiar.
Base Mechanics
Levitate: A Telekinetic can, as a swift action, levitate a single item or 5 pounds of material +1 pound per level of telekinetic. The object must be unattended. From that point it can be thrown or moved as a standard action. Later levels allow levitation of ally or self with fly speed. Range of use is equal to mental range. At 10th level and every 8 levels after the amount of items that can be lifted at one increases by +1, though only one can be thrown at a time and the combined weight must not exceed the maximum. At 18th level the telekinetic can cast levitate on him, as the spell for 1 minute per level, or add 20ft to any creature's jump once per level.
Mental throw: Anything held by levitate can be thrown, however penalties for improvised weapons still apply due to non-streamlined nature.
Mental range: The range that a telekinetic can manipulate items and extend his CMB to. 10ft at level and increases 10ft at level 4 and every 4 levels after to a maximum of 50ft.
Mental Grip: A telekinetic can use his mind rather than his body to hold and manipulate objects. Any combat maneuver, including grapple, sunder, trip, bull rush, disarm, and drag, can be made without physical contact up to the limit of his mental range. Other attempts to manipulate an enemy's person such as sleight of hand can also be used by mental grip. This is full round action. Without the intricacies of hand to hand the mental grip suffers -2 on all CMB but can be boosted by feats as normal and allows no AoO except by adjunct enemies as normal.
Mental blow: A ranged attack that uses mental power to create a blast of energy. All damage is force based and can travel as far as the mental range allows. Useable 3+int modifier times per day. The blow of force will strike and damage the first thing it comes across like any normal ranged attack.
1-20 progression using one of the focus
2: mental grip, focus, levitate (5 lbs)
3: mental blow (2d6)
4: focus, mental range (20ft)
5: mental blow (3d6)
6: focus
7: mental blow (4d6)
8: focus, mental range (30ft)
9: mental blow (5d6)
10: focus, levitate (items)
11: mental blow (6d6), bond (2)
12: focus, mental range (40ft)
13: mental blow (7d6)
14: focus
15: mental blow (8d6)
16: focus, mental range (50ft)
17: mental blow (9d6)
18: focus, levitate (assist)
19: mental blow (10d6)
20: focus
Focus, in depth:
Symbol:
1st: Mark of the psion (+2 saving against compulsion)
2nd: Enhanced levitate (+1 lbs per level limit to weight)
4th: Enhance mental grip (decrease penalty to mental grip by 1)
6th: Weapon focus (throw), mental strength (bonded items are affected as if wield with both hands)
8th: Enhance mental grip (decrease penalty to mental grip, now 0)
10th: Mental Throw anything
12th: Enhance mental grip (increase to +1 CMB)
14th: Weapon specialization (throw), Mental Shock (instead of a standard mental blow, a 5ft wall of force last for one round directly in front of the Telekinetic, blocking damage equal to a mental blow)
16th: Enhance mental grip (increase to +2 CMB)
18th: Levitation Reaction (a loosed item, dropped item, disarmed weapon, or thrown item can be caught and thrown with levitation as an AoO. This includes returning a thrown weapon to an ally)
20th: Overwhelming Thoughts (The Telekinetic now adds explosive force to his Mental Blows and Mental
I think the pro psionics crowd often mixes it with mysticism which often viewed as a form of mental magic.
That's pretty much as I viewed it. 'Psychic' powers were originally conceived of to avoic saying 'magic' in parapsychological circles, after all. They are in effect the same thing.
First, I open my copy of Psionics Unleashed.
Second, I use Psionics Unleashed.
Third, I enjoy the psionics rules inside.
Keep psionics in Supers and Star Wars games where they belong -- if you're not weaving mana or channeling a God's will, it's not epic fantasy.Hilariously enough, D&D magic is neither of these - and 3.5 psionics does the weaving just fine. Looks like wizards are going in Star Wars and psionics are here to stay ;)
QFT on all fronts.
I will not take anything away from Dreamscarred, but I remember a quote from the PF team saying that they were interesting in tackling Psionics themselves as a development team. I think this means an "official" version of psionics will eventually come from PF, and I would expect it to deviate strongly from Psionics Unleashed. Still, it is great that psionic rules are already out there for players who yearn for it.
I'd say "I open anything by Dreamscarred Press". They got their psionics right.
Indeed, but they probably won't call it psionics if they do, it'll be 'Eastern Magic' or some such. That way the 3.5 psionics lovers can use DSP's Psionics Unleashed, and the haters can ignore it, and everyone is happy.
gregg carrier I think you are on the right track. I always felt some type of variant of a monk with CHA being the base and flurry type thing at range with "Ki Pool" was the way to handle a psion. Keep plugging and chugging. Can't wait to see the finished product.
I'm not trying to plug this homebrew class, but just as an extremely rough example, this kind of what i figured a psion (specifically a telepath) would kind of look like. Hidden so you don't have to wade through it, essentially the Telekinetic has multiple paths to open his power and as he levels he gets a larger range to grab from, gets a basic force attack, and 1st and every even level goes down the path of mental power mixed with upbringing. I only have the pure telekinetic roughly done (I know it can't be balanced at this point) but in one of the spoiler sections there are quick summaries for other paths including arcane and divine. But this is what I think would be neat, not sure if it's similar to anything.
Fast overview of power sources (Focuses)
** spoiler omitted **...
thats kind of what i had in mind. i think what you would do is to allow greater custimization and have other powes apply is just give the generic names like psionic power then psionic enhancement. when you gain powers and then let you choose form a list. i would just have the powers description with the power but thats aesthetics. maybe even allow the choice per level of enhancement or power slot.
for other class types just lower the enhancements power slot gain and bump up like bab hp or skills for the feel you want.|
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I do like the idea of complete customization. Given I was thinking an actually different class for a transmutation psion or a seer type but there does seem like I can add in variety either by feats or by alteration. Allow maybe total control over the mental blast's shape, feats or abilitiy to off pyro or cyro (fire/ice) instead of force. Like I say there's still a lot to iron out but it's something to take into account.
random ideas
1. telepathy
a mind control
b read minds
c forget
d communication
e emotion contorl (maybe a seperate one)
I morale bonuses
II rage
III fear
IV diplomacy checks
2. mind over body
a body equilibrium (balance and Feather fall)
b that thing where you fix your gaze (to avoid stonning)
c stablization
3. body mods (based on altering your body with your mind)
a gross body mods (claws bite etc.)
b adrenaline boosts (str dex bump^)
c adaptions to hars enviroment via tougher skin etc.
just some ideas i would say take an over arching power and work with itby adding more functions to it or getting anotherso i want telepathy but not much of the other stuff so ill grab something new this level etc.
I like psionics as they are, but I'd also be interested to see them work like the 3.5 warlock. Unlimited use class features could be an interesting way to do supernatural things that are different from "normal" magic.
The soulknife would become a more unique class with his own place in the game if he was using that sword to make melee touch attacks dealing d6/2 levels damage. It would also be good fun to have a stand-at-the-back utility caster kind of guy who doesn't run out of oomph.
I will not take anything away from Dreamscarred, but I remember a quote from the PF team saying that they were interesting in tackling Psionics themselves as a development team. I think this means an "official" version of psionics will eventually come from PF, and I would expect it to deviate strongly from Psionics Unleashed. Still, it is great that psionic rules are already out there for players who yearn for it.
I'd say "I open anything by Dreamscarred Press". They got their psionics right.
Unfortunately I think it's probably on the long list, but not a priority simply because there is a lot more demand for other books first. Epic rules, for example, is something most groups will be interested in, but I would say less than half of groups would want psionics in their game, perhaps much less.
I kinda like the Complete Psychic's system, from Green Ronin (and reprinted in their Advanced Player's Guide). Feats to know specific types of psychic stuff (like telekinesis) and then class skills to determine what level of effect you can produce with them.
The Trinity Player's Guide also had a neat system, where you spent successes on improvements to a base range, duration, damage / weight lifted, etc. A telekinetic might be able to lift small items for free all day long, but lifting something heavy or doing something impressive might require an expenditure of some sort, or some personal strain, or a really good die roll.
I'd prefer if psychic/psionic stuff was weaker than magic, but usable all day long, at a basic level, with an option to push it causing fatigue or personal injury, to make 'nova-ing' a possibility, but not often.
Essentially, this. Especially the emphasis bolded.
id kind of like to see psionics first just so they could have epic psionic stuff in epic although i suspose you could just have the epic stuff for psionic in the psionic hmm ok eigther way works
Dreamscarred Press does a good job of porting over the 3.0/3.5 system to Pathfinder, especially for fans of 3.5 psionics. The problem is that there are a lot of people who are not happy with how 3.0/3.5 handled psionics. What was ment to be portrayed as the third pillar of d20 spellcasting is kinda the red headed stepchild. It doesn't fit in with the rest of D&D 3.5, and Dreamscarred Press's version doesn't fit in with the rest of Pathfinder. It works best as its own thing (that doesn't mean that it isn't mechanically balanced with Pathfinder).
I do want to see Paizo's take on psionics, and I also think that it will fit in better with the rest of the system.
Historically (and in the history of fiction), psionics has grown out of mysticism and then became a way to shoohorn magic into scifi (it was one of the earliest Super Sciences). The division between divine, arcane, and psionics is relatively new (like, developed in the last century and a half). D20 separated them into power sources: Divine (from the gods), Arcane (Science of Magic), and Psionics (Power of the mind).
To be honest, I would rather than psionics work more like ki, and build on that mechanic rather than have it as an alternative spellcasting system.
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How would you want Psionics to work?
Take all the Enchantment spells away from Arcane spell lists, then take a large number of Divination and even some Illusion spells, add them together to create a list of spells for a Psion Class. Throw in a Mind Blast Class Feature for attack and voila, That's how Psionics should work in D&D.
No more of this garbage that has been used for the last 30+ years.