I think clerics are largely fine, but I do think 2+int mod is a bit low for the skills a cleric will generally be expected to cover in a typical 4 person group. Giving cleric 4+ int mod would open up a lot of possibilities and likely rectify a lot of concerns.
Valid Point
I playing a Battle-Cleric of Moradin and heading for Holy Vindicator, my biggest Problem are the skills. Int is a low stat for clerics (nothing except skills depent on it for him), so I end up with 3 skillpoints per level.Now considering he's a dwarven battle-priest what skills would fit?
- Craft (Weaponsmith): I think a cleric of the god of forges should be awesome here
- Know. Religion: A "should have" for every cleric, also preq. for HV
- Diplomacy
- Heal
And you see not very much room for additional "adventurer skills".
Also one thing that bothered me is, we have a also Gnome Druid in the group, she had a large Tiger companion (which deals a lot of dmg), can wildshape (to do also good dmg) and have access to some very nasty spells.
I think the main complain about clerics lies directly here, within the comparison to the other full divine caster: the druid
Druid gets:
- full spell access
- defensive, offensive and support spells
- companion
- Wild Shape (x/day)
- Some flavour abilities (e.g. Trackless Step, Thousend Faces, Timeless Body)
- medium armour prof, special weapon prof.
- 4 + Int skills
Cleric gets
- full spell access
- defensive and support spells
- channel energy (x/day)
- Domain abilities (total 4)
- medium armour prof, simple (+ 1) weapon prof
- 2 + Int spells
Lets compare:
- full spell access (both) = even
- Spell selection (cleric get less ofensive spells, but more support defensiv) = even
- Wild Shape : Channel Energy = Even
- Some flavour abilities : Domain abilities = Even
- Profencies = Even (also the old D&D Gods have crappy fav. weapons^^)
Very even, but two parts spikes out at the druid, the companion and skills. The companion could be a awesome dmg maschine and the druid has double the skill points then a cleric.
If we focus on this I think the cleric could be much better.
Idea to resolve this issue:
- gave the cleric +2 skill points
- gave the cleric a option to choose between combat and spells
First thing is easy, second could look like this:
At the first level the cleric have to choose if he's from a military order of the curch or from a cloistric order.
Military Order:
The military Cleric get the following ability:
Weapon Mastery (Ex): You gain Weapon Focus with your deities weapon. At 4th level you get Weapon specialisation with this weapon At 8th level, you gain Improved Critical with that weapon. At 12th level, you gain Greater Weapon Focus with that weapon. You do not need to meet the prerequisites to receive these feats.
Cloitric Order:
Also Special abilities at 1st, 4th, 8th and 12th level - spell/knowledge related
I can't edit my post anymore, maybe it's to long :)
I reconsidered it and came to the conclusion that the domain spell access is equal to the companion. So scrap/ignore the "Order" stuff. :)
So only the skill issue is left.
I also think a lot of the "cleric is lame" mentality comes from the empty level progression list, lets fill it up with all a cleric gets:
Level Abilities
1st Channel Energy, Spontaneous casting, Domain Abilities I, Domain Spell I
2nd
3rd Channel Energy, Domain Spell II
4th
5th Channel Energy, Domain Spell III
8th Domain Abilities II
9th Channel Energy, Domain Spell IV
10th
11th Channel Energy, Domain Spell V
12th
13th Channel Energy, Domain Spell VI
14th
15th Channel Energy, Domain Spell VII
16th Domain Abilities III
17th Channel Energy, Domain Spell IX
18th
19th
20th Aspect of your Diety
I think it's fine this way, maybe another Domain ability at 16 and a capstone ability at 20 would be nice. (added in italic)
What is it you don't understand?
People complained of CoDzilla (not our "beloved" poster, the actual unstoppable cleric combo) Paizo tuned it a little bit, and let the class being good in specific tasks throguh domain.
Now, because of this, the cleric is weaksauce. I wonder if people read carefully how buffs and domains work.
I don't think that anyone is saying the Cleric is weak, just that the cleric is a bit boring. It wasn't as big of a problem when the only thing available to compare it to was the druid or paladin, both of which have significant fluff issues that keep them from fitting with every group, but now with oracle, inquisitor, and witch(which I know is technically an arcane class, but it has enough of both sides of the house to come into play as a comparison), the lack of new shiny things after level 1, except for 2 new things at levels 6 and/or 8, and the limited impact that domains have on the spell list, the very vanilla mechanical flavor with nothing unique to make it stand out is something that needs to be acknowledged so that people can start generating ideas of how to adjust that without ending up with the monster that the cleric became in 3.5.
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I think clerics are largely fine, but I do think 2+int mod is a bit low for the skills a cleric will generally be expected to cover in a typical 4 person group. Giving cleric 4+ int mod would open up a lot of possibilities and likely rectify a lot of concerns.
Or have the domains provide bonus skill ranks, to be spent on appropriate skills; e.g. Animal gives one rank/cleric level in Knowledge (nature) and Handle Animal, covering the essentials that all such clerics would be expected to learn as part of their training. Then the player can spend those discretionary 2 skill points (+ Int mod, +1 human, +1 favored class, etc) on their own hobbies, that are personal to them.
I think clerics are largely fine, but I do think 2+int mod is a bit low for the skills a cleric will generally be expected to cover in a typical 4 person group. Giving cleric 4+ int mod would open up a lot of possibilities and likely rectify a lot of concerns.Or have the domains provide bonus skill ranks, to be spent on appropriate skills; e.g. Animal gives one rank/cleric level in Knowledge (nature) and Handle Animal, covering the essentials that all such clerics would be expected to learn as part of their training. Then the player can spend those discretionary 2 skill points (+ Int mod, +1 human, +1 favored class, etc) on their own hobbies, that are personal to them.
That was the biggest issue for the battle cleric of Gorum in my campaign, he was going to have to be the FOP as well and it was hard to reconcile a viable FOP with a battle cleric build and cleric skill points. As a result the player who was going to make a fighter went paladin instead and took diplomacy and sense motive and the rogue took the poverty-stricken trait to get survival as a class skill to cover tracking and the like. We've all been playing together for over 20 years so it worked out easily. However, I could see this causing skill gaps for a typical 4 man group who doesn't go to the same lengths to insure character creation has all their bases covered.
If the cleric wants more skills he can take a higher Int. He doesn't need to max out CHA.
20 point buy
DEX:10
STR:14
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:16
CHA:10
As a human he now he has 5 skill points and you can take some traits to gain pretty much any skill you want. Choose Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and now you got a great FOP.
The problem is that many people want to make their characters optimized beyond the point of necessity rather than build something unique. I've seen a guy trash a character just because he couldn't' do uber-damage even though the build was highly effective.
If the cleric wants more skills he can take a higher Int. He doesn't need to max out CHA.
20 point buy
DEX:10
STR:14
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:16
CHA:10As a human he now he has 5 skill points and you can take some traits to gain pretty much any skill you want. Choose Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and now you got a great FOP.
The problem is that many people want to make their characters optimized beyond the point of necessity rather than build something unique. I've seen a guy trash a character just because he couldn't' do uber-damage even though the build was highly effective.
That's pretty much the build he was going to go with, until one party member offered to create a paladin instead of fighter and the rogue took poverty-stricken to cover survival. It all worked out in the end, and survival actually fits the rogues backstory anyway.
I said, "people I know..."
(-: Sorry I misread you, but what you meant wasn't obvious/clear (sepcially when the reader doesn't have English as the first language). Also I didn't expect the "me and my homeboys think" kind of argument ;-)
Anyway, you and your friends are all, obviously , entitled to your opinions.
As to the template you are correct -- they are still lacking the bonus on AC -- however that is a nice but fairly small part of the smite compared to the charisma bonus to hit (which for most animals is small to non-existent I agree) and the hit dice bonus on damage (which can be much nicer).
the part they are missing is not so small, it's the most important one when fighting powerful undeads, evil dragons, evil outsider or anyone with DR:
- "If the target of smite evil is an outsider with
the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead
creature, the bonus to damage increases to 2 points of
damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the
target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the
creature might possess."
The double damage vs. outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature are powerful too ;-)
So I misread you and you misread the errata and misread my point on not summons no getting the full Paladin smite evil powers. Shall we call it a draw or ...
Abraham spalding- Zark: 1 - 2?
Military Order:
The military Cleric get the following ability:
Weapon Mastery (Ex): You gain Weapon Focus with your deities weapon. At 4th level you get Weapon specialisation with this weapon At 8th level, you gain Improved Critical with that weapon. At 12th level, you gain Greater Weapon Focus with that weapon. You do not need to meet the prerequisites to receive these feats.
Hey,this is balanced.
Make sure you add a Fighter class ability for Archetype "Balanced with New Cleric".
It replaces Bravery. Fighter gets Good Will save (instead of +2 skill points). At every other level, the fighter gains a level of cleric spellcasting. He picks one Domain at first level. His caster level is equal to his fighter level.
There! The Cleric gets the fighter-specific feats, and the Fighter gets cleric-specific class abilities. Perfectly balanced.
==Aelryinth
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Military Order:
The military Cleric get the following ability:
Weapon Mastery (Ex): You gain Weapon Focus with your deities weapon. At 4th level you get Weapon specialisation with this weapon At 8th level, you gain Improved Critical with that weapon. At 12th level, you gain Greater Weapon Focus with that weapon. You do not need to meet the prerequisites to receive these feats.Hey,this is balanced.
Make sure you add a Fighter class ability for Archetype "Balanced with New Cleric".
It replaces Bravery. Fighter gets Good Will save (instead of +2 skill points). At every other level, the fighter gains a level of cleric spellcasting. He picks one Domain at first level. His caster level is equal to his fighter level.
There! The Cleric gets the fighter-specific feats, and the Fighter gets cleric-specific class abilities. Perfectly balanced.
==Aelryinth
So, not only are you ok with everyone doing this to Cleric, as long as the Cleric cant do the same thing, but 2 feats is roughly equal to 1/2 spellcasting + a good save +/- Bravery, (essentually replaced with the better save)?
Yes, I realize your being sarcastic, but what exactly was that suppossed to help?
Military Order:
The military Cleric get the following ability:
Weapon Mastery (Ex): You gain Weapon Focus with your deities weapon. At 4th level you get Weapon specialisation with this weapon At 8th level, you gain Improved Critical with that weapon. At 12th level, you gain Greater Weapon Focus with that weapon. You do not need to meet the prerequisites to receive these feats.Hey,this is balanced.
Make sure you add a Fighter class ability for Archetype "Balanced with New Cleric".
It replaces Bravery. Fighter gets Good Will save (instead of +2 skill points). At every other level, the fighter gains a level of cleric spellcasting. He picks one Domain at first level. His caster level is equal to his fighter level.
There! The Cleric gets the fighter-specific feats, and the Fighter gets cleric-specific class abilities. Perfectly balanced.
==Aelryinth
So, not only are you ok with everyone doing this to Cleric, as long as the Cleric cant do the same thing, but 2 feats is roughly equal to 1/2 spellcasting + a good save +/- Bravery, (essentually replaced with the better save)?
Yes, I realize your being sarcastic, but what exactly was that suppossed to help?
His point is he's tired of new published material robbing core class of their 'thing'. If it's a fighter only thing, then it's a fighter only thing.
No one but cleric should be able to channel, once you do that, poof, the core class loses it's appeal.Can't go giving away fighter only feats, when its fighter ONLY.
Fighter (AND Samurai) AND PrCs ;)
If the cleric wants more skills he can take a higher Int. He doesn't need to max out CHA.
+1
Fighters and sorcerers get 2 skill ranks per level, so why shouldn't they too get 4 / level?
Can't go giving away fighter only feats, when its fighter ONLY.
+1
I don't want clerics getting fighter feats. Let the fighter be the fighter. I don't want to resurrect Codzilla again. If you want fighter feats pick one or two levels fighter or let Pazizo creat a PrC. A figher/cleric.I don't want Paizo to change the cleric. I don't want more skills per level or fighter feat. I would however like some more options.
Archetype classes that give you more choices.
An archetype with no Channeling but 4 skills per level (or less Channel per day but 4 skills per level).
A feat that reduces you channeling but give you bonus skills tied to your domain...no I'm not talking about perception. The skill doesn't even have to be a class skill or become a class skill. Just one (or two) rank per level.
New useful spells, Particularly the 3rd, 7th and 8th spell level. And I don't mean they have to be powerful or dealing damage, just a bit more useful.
3rd level spell are OK, but most of the spells, unlike 2nd level spells, becomes obsolete at higher levels.
But the big problem is perhaps 7th spell level and to some extent 8th spell level.
7th spell level: Lesser miracle that can duplicate any 6th level cleric spell with a material cost less than 250 gp.
other suggestions:
new good buff spells
new good protection spell
new Good utility spells
new good healing spells
Speaking of healing spells.
New cure/healing spells at 7th and 8 spell level. Perhaps at 5th spell level too.
7th spell level - a good healing spell usable at range. Perhaps not as good as heal, but targeting two creatures and with more than just the healing effect. Give this to bard too.
7th spell level: Breath of Life, Greater.
8th spell level, Lesser mass heal. As heal but targets two creature. Give this to the druid and the witch as a 9th level spell.
5th level
More Channeling feats. Make Channel energy more useful and versatile.
Channeling feat 1: Lets the cleric add a second effect to channeling at higher levels, similar to the Paladin's Mercy. More effects as you level up.
Prereq could be, char 13 and cleric level 7. This should be a cleric only feat.
Channeling feat 2: You may swap healing for another effect.
Channeling feat 3: Once per day you may maximize the healing.
A feat called improved Domains abilities. You get more domain powers and/or other domain powers. Let's say a new power at level 12 and 16 (and perhaps at level 20, but who plays +17 level games?). Perhaps this feat could give you the bonus skill point tied to a domain.
A friend of mine came up with a great idea. New domain spells. These spells can only be prepared in the domain slot. Now, two clerics with the same domains more or less use the same domain spell, and if you have one domain with a suck spell a certain level you try to pick another domain with a better spell at the same spell level. With this feat clerics could be more different. It would also be a good way to fix some of the more boring domians that are out there. Subdomains came close, but wasn't much fun.
Another idea would be new spells tied to your deity. Spells that are not domain spells but are only accessible by clerics of a specific deity.
Fix the heal skill. at lower levels it's nice but the DC is too high. At higher levels it's useless.
I don't want a new cleric. Fix the cleric with new feats and new spells.
I just don't want new archetypes. This doesn't fix the core cleric.
Hey,this is balanced.Make sure you add a Fighter class ability for Archetype "Balanced with New Cleric".
It replaces Bravery. Fighter gets Good Will save (instead of +2 skill points). At every other level, the fighter gains a level of cleric spellcasting. He picks one Domain at first level. His caster level is equal to his fighter level.
There! The Cleric gets the fighter-specific feats, and the Fighter gets cleric-specific class abilities. Perfectly balanced.
==Aelryinth
1. Paizo already did that themself, giving the oracle the Grater Weapon Focus (which is a fighter only feat), I simply copied the wepaon mastery mystery of a oracle of Battle and add a 4th level feat
2. If you read my posts, you should already read that i skipped this idea already, but it seems it's easier to simply troll instead of discussing. :)
@ToZ:
I like it, especially as all my chars (except of rogues) are short on skill points :)
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They should. But then, I've advocated for 4/level being the minimum the entire time. If the skill list were more consolidated I would be fine with 2/level.
Fighters and sorcerers get 2 skill ranks per level, so why shouldn't they too get 4 / level?
It is really necessary for every character to have and maximize every skill?
Being a bit skill starved and not maximizing every skill is e positive thing in my eyes.
For every Conan type hero that can climb the wizard tower, surpass the locks and walk away after killing the guard demon, know how to ride a horse better than the steppe nomads, can charm queens from several nations (is you read the Howard books beside the knowledge skills it has all the skill maximized) there are plenty that rely on teamwork and specialized abilities, and generally they are the most credible.
Being capable to acquire some extra skill more for roleplaying motives than real game usefulness ere and there would be nice, but it will not end that way.
People will not go around and buy 1-2 of Knowledge (local) for every city they visit frequently, learn a few rank in swimming to be capable to stay afloat and so on.
The large majority would maximize 2 extra skill and the cry again that they have no rank in skill X and that they should get more skills.
Paizo has consolidated several skills. The result? People cry for more skillpoints.
@ToZ:
I like it, especially as all my chars (except of rogues) are short on skill points :)
Well I agree skills might be a problem, but it's just one part of a bigger problem.
Wolfsnap wrote "the whole point of the Cleric class is that it's NOT specialized in any way."
In threory he is right, but just in theory.
TriOmegaZero's had a good point:
"I think the biggest problem is, the class has to be generic enough to allow clerics of any faith. Domains are supposed to make each one flavored for their faith, but you can only spare so much room for each one considering the number of domains. "
And Domains doesn't even actuallt give the cleric that much flavour. Cleric X with good domain and cleric Y with good domain have the same powers and the same domain spells.
Since the spell list is a bit boring and since she only gets 2 skills / level there isn't much room for versatility.
She needs Str, con wis and char. Dumb it? Dump dex?
An orcale has it easier:
The spells to pick from the list are obvious or at least mostly obvious. At spell level +6 they are all obvious.
Most spells do not need a DC so the oracle can use scrolls if there are any spells she doesn't know.
She got 4 skills per level and don't need Int.
She got good will saves, has protection spells like Prot from Evil, and she uses char so she don't need wisdom.
She can pick utility spells like Obscuring Mist, Silence, Remove Disease or Breath or of life but she don't have to prepare them so when she needs them she can just cast them,..again and again. If she don't need it she got other stuff she can cast.
With the new extra spell feat and the new human trait she gets all the spell she needs.
The sorcerer doesn't gain the same benefit vs. the wizard.
I could go on.
Don't get me wrong, I like sorcerers, but wizards have more versatility that's why they are so good.
The way thing are now Oracles have more versatility than the cleric AND are less stat dependent and get more powers. A life Oracle is actually a better healer than the cleric and her Channeling is more powerful vs. undeads and eventually she will be able to channel more often than a cleric. AND she gets mass heal as a 8th level spell. In fact a life Orcale is well suited to focus on strength and become a melee character. With Combat Healer she can just go on fighting and don't worry about getting hit.
I like the orcale. It's fine and I don't have any problem with the Orcle of Life. I just want the cleric to get some stuff only clerics get....and some more option. Heck there are even Oracle only spells in the APG. What did the cleric get. Pillar of Crap and no 7th level spells, no new healing spells, no channeling feats.
It is really necessary for every character to have and maximize every skill?
No, the need to maximize a skill is one of the biggest myths circling on these messageboards.
Paizo has consolidated several skills. The result? People cry for more skillpoints.
LOL, good point.
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TriOmegaZero's had a good point:
"I think the biggest problem is, the class has to be generic enough to allow clerics of any faith. Domains are supposed to make each one flavored for their faith, but you can only spare so much room for each one considering the number of domains. "And Domains doesn't even actuallt give the cleric that much flavour. Cleric X with good domain and cleric Y with good domain have the same powers and the same domain spells.
Since the spell list is a bit boring and since she only gets 2 skills / level there isn't much room for versatility.
She needs Str, con wis and char. Dumb it? Dump dex?
Sure, I would like to see a good selection of god related archetypes, a few for every deity, and I think practically every player would like that, but that is something that need to be done for each setting.
Probably the best solution would be to publish a template of a clerical archetype and some table of powers equivalence to allow for customization of each cleric to the deity he follow in the setting used by the GM.
The only problem is that they will be a nightmare to balance, especially for tournament play.
Paizo could probably do a good sized booklet of archetypes for each divinity of Golarion, but I doubt they could do something that will agree with all the different divinities in all the different pantheons of the home brewed campaigns.
Sure, I would like to see a good selection of god related archetypes, a few for every deity, and I think practically every player would like that, but that is something that need to be done for each setting.
I think you have some reading up to do ;-)
I'm not a big fan of archetypes. I don't mean archetypes have to be linked to a diety.Some of my other points:
new spells
new channeling feats,
new domain spells
some archetypes that lets you swap channeling for skill ranks or whatever.
New cleric only feats that boosts/alters domain powers or feats that grants new powers at higher levels.
Nothing of this has to be 'powerful'. It needs to be fun or/and add to versatility.
Sure, I would like to see a good selection of god related archetypes, a few for every deity, and I think practically every player would like that, but that is something that need to be done for each setting.
I think this is a good point.
Clerics need to be very generic to fit into every setting, so you can't create much deity specific things. On the same they are the most setting depending class (most fantasy settings are build around the deities), so they need the deity specific things to differ from each other.The Domains are a good way to do it, but they are also a weakness of it, because they are "general".
Let's guess you have a god of chivalry, named Bob (e.g. Law, good, Strength, War domain)
on the other Side you have a evil war god, named Eddy (War, evil, strength domain). Both clerics (LG and CN) take the war and strength domain, so no difference within the skillset, that's the problem I see.
To solve this, you have to create deity depending domains for every setting, so no "Law, good, evil" domain, but "Bobs Law, Bob's War, Eddy's Evil, Eddy's War".
Alternativly you can create "Orders" e.g. lets take Bobs church.
Order of the sword - the purifyer - War and Good domain, maybe tailored to Bob
Order of the Judge - Law and Good Domain, maybe tailored to Bob
etc.
But both of it is a lot of work and if used, should be set in a campaign setting, to be used instead of the normal domains.
So instead of chooding two domains, simply choose an aspect of your church which grants you some abilities, a spell slot and some special spell access.
If you want uniqueness you don't go grabbing the shticks of other classes. So many PrC's in 3.5 raided the fighter, he had almost nothing. If you want to give a PrC +1 TH with the god's weapon, do it, but don't call it GWF.
Eesh.
The whole thing about spellcasting being equal to two feats? Yeah, that's just about right...because it's 1/2 spellcasting. Anyone with 1/2 level spellcasting is not going to receive more then a +1 or +2 LA. THe EK gets 90% spellcasting, and is considered underpowered. Rangers and Paladins get about 1/4 spellcasting and it doesn't really affect them at all.
So, yeah, you wanna give away Fighter shticks, then give away cleric shticks to those you're robbing.
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For uniqueness for Domains, they should have unique Domain spells abilities, i.e. things not found elsewhere. Replicating wizard effects is part of the flavorlessness of the whole aspect. If Domain spells are like some of the unique 'godcentric' FR spells, then you have FLAVOR coming out of things.
Granted, the spells will inevitably favor some domains over others, but what can ya do.
==Aelryinth
If Domain spells are like some of the unique 'godcentric' FR spells, then you have FLAVOR coming out of things.
That's what I talking about, creating abilities/spells to choose around the campaigns deities, but this should belong to the campaign setting not the "Core Rules".
The PF Core Rules are, like the 3.0/3.5 Core Rules a generic rule set, not tailored to a specific world. But as Clerics need gods, they add some gods from their "default" world (Golarion in PF, Greyhawk in 3.0)
stuff
I actually don't agree with anything you say.
lot of work? People pay money for this game, and people have been pointing out, since the beta test of the core book, that the cleric needs some more versatility.versatility is not tied settings and does not have to be tied to a deity, although it would be nice.
7th spell level sucking does not need a lot of work.
Fixing Channeling sucking at higher levels does not need a lot of work
feat giving new domian powers at higher levels does not need a lot of work
etc.
Agree some fixes does need lot of work, but not all. Hey, they doesn't even give the FAQ 5 minute or work each day, although they have been promising it getting it updated for 1,5 years. So it's not a matter or workload. It a matter of: hey let's fix this.
Once they let the orcale out, things changed (and some didn't). Now the cleric needs a fix. So does some other classes.
Zark you're not working in an area with a persistent updating and changing product or?
Even if this looks like "easy as eating panecakes", time must be spent, someone must develop it, someone must write it down, someone have to lecture it, someone have to make the design, possible artworks, print, logistics etc. etc.
If it's that easy, as you say, try it, develop a general solution for it and post it here, then you will see how much work it is.
(and yes I work in such an enviroment, so I know, what I talking about)
lot of work? People pay money for this game,
This is the worst argument ever (in the past, now and the future)...
Why? Because the Developers did much more then just paying money and demanding stuff (like you), they work their ass of for their stuff.
If the cleric wants more skills he can take a higher Int. He doesn't need to max out CHA.+1
Fighters and sorcerers get 2 skill ranks per level, so why shouldn't they too get 4 / level?
Can't go giving away fighter only feats, when its fighter ONLY.+1
New useful spells, Particularly the 3rd, 7th and 8th spell level. And I don't mean they have to be powerful or dealing damage, just a bit more useful.
3rd level spell are OK, but most of the spells, unlike 2nd level spells, becomes obsolete at higher levels.
But the big problem is perhaps 7th spell level and to some extent 8th spell level.
7th spell level: Lesser miracle that can duplicate any 6th level cleric spell with a material cost less than 250 gp.
other suggestions:
new good buff spells
new good protection spell
new Good utility spells
new good healing spellsSpeaking of healing spells.
New cure/healing spells at 7th and 8 spell level. Perhaps at 5th spell level too.
7th spell level - a good healing spell usable at range. Perhaps not as good as heal, but targeting two creatures and with more than just the healing effect. Give this to bard too.
7th spell level: Breath of Life, Greater.
8th spell level, Lesser mass heal. As heal but...
I've been mitigating the spells issue somewhat in my games by offering PC Clerics deity specific "Quest Spells", which relate to an aspect of their deity.
Sometimes it's just a spell that isn't otherwise on the cleric list, but I've also created quite a few custom spells to fill gaps here in and there that also fit the theme of the pc's archetype/build and his deity.Such spells are given as a reward after the cleric undertakes a mission on behalf of his deity.
I realize this doesn't rectify all of your aforementioned concerns, but it does help to customize and personalize clerics further, while at least mitigating those concerns. It's also proven to be very popular with my pc's.
So many PrC's in 3.5 raided the fighter
One of the reasons I philosophically disdain PrC's and am glad arcehtypes have made them passe anyway.
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stuffI actually don't agree with anything you say.
lot of work? People pay money for this game, and people have been pointing out, since the beta test of the core book, that the cleric needs some more versatility.
versatility is not tied settings and does not have to be tied to a deity, although it would be nice.
7th spell level sucking does not need a lot of work.
Fixing Channeling sucking at higher levels does not need a lot of work
feat giving new domian powers at higher levels does not need a lot of work
etc.
Agree some fixes does need lot of work, but not all. Hey, they doesn't even give the FAQ 5 minute or work each day, although they have been promising it getting it updated for 1,5 years. So it's not a matter or workload. It a matter of: hey let's fix this.Once they let the orcale out, things changed (and some didn't). Now the cleric needs a fix. So does some other classes.
+1
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lot of work? People pay money for this game,This is the worst argument ever (in the past, now and the future)...
Why? Because the Developers did much more then just paying money and demanding stuff (like you), they work their ass of for their stuff.
I don't see how. What you suggested has been done many, many, many times. In this thread and many others. I pay money, and I think there are certain areas (motly Cleric, but others as well) that really need attention. Most have been highlighted since the final book came out, but not really attended to. I'm not saying I think the Paizo staff are lazy or anything, but in my opinion, I would rather have some of the issues addressed and/or fixed more than a new book comming out on time. And I say that both as a fan and as a paying customer. I really like a lot of Paizo's material, I like the staff as far as I know them (from the boards), and I want PF to continue and grow stronger. I don't however like the way that the Errata and FAQs have been handled. It took me months to even realize there were FAQs out for the main PF books, because they have always been fairly hidden. Besides that, many questions about rules or gaming issues are hidden throughout various threads, some of which are not even related to the threads topic, so searching is nearly immpossible.
Paizo has been very familiar wih 3E for a long, long time. They have an idea of how it all works, and true or not, the impression they are giving people (or maybe just me) is that they would rather sweep something under the rug than fix them, and that they would rather just eventually get to the point that they can drop the Cleric class completely.
The more material that comes out, the more difficult it becomes to fix the basics, as more and more will be built upon those basics. Solid foundation before you build a house.
I alo personally feel they spend too much time on certain things, which even further shows the weaknesses in others. Too much Bard, Druid, Wizard/Sorcerer, and Fighter, as well as Oracle, Witch, and Inquisitor.
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So many PrC's in 3.5 raided the fighterOne of the reasons I philosophically disdain PrC's and am glad arcehtypes have made them passe anyway.
I realy liked PCs, in some ways far more than Archtypes. It gave characters something to work for both in and out of character, and also offered abilities they couldn't normally gain. Archtypes on the other hand, while sometimes nice and fun, just don't really do this.
I think there is much more room for PCs, and really wish the Paizo would focus some more here. Not everyone likes playing straight single class characters. Archtypes are better at offering variaty early on, but PCs offer more overall, in my opinion, and also offer the player a sense of achievement, that Archtypes simply can't.
I alo personally feel they spend too much time on certain things, which even further shows the weaknesses in others. Too much. . .Oracle, Witch, and Inquisitor.
Although I like the options these classes bring to the table, I found myself wondering why they weren't archetypes of existing classes instead.
So many PrC's in 3.5 raided the fighterOne of the reasons I philosophically disdain PrC's and am glad arcehtypes have made them passe anyway.I realy liked PCs, in some ways far more than Archtypes. It gave characters something to work for both in and out of character, and also offered abilities they couldn't normally gain. Archtypes on the other hand, while sometimes nice and fun, just don't really do this.
I think there is much more room for PCs, and really wish the Paizo would focus some more here. Not everyone likes playing straight single class characters. Archtypes are better at offering variaty early on, but PCs offer more overall, in my opinion, and also offer the player a sense of achievement, that Archtypes simply can't.
By all means I allow prc's, I've just always been partial to pure builds with added flavor (before APG I had a house rule style archetypes option for every class). That's not me saying they don't have their place, just my personal preference.
Monks overpowered, Clerics need a fix, Fighters are balanced. This was a fun month on the forum.
The more I reread the thread, the weirder it gets.
it feels like a Luis Buñuel movie.
If you're gonna play a Cleric, seems to me you really need to spend some time investing in a creed. You've got these crazy Divine powers on tap, so your God is real and tangible. You need to play that up.
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Monks overpowered, Clerics need a fix, Fighters are balanced. This was a fun month on the forum.
I would say Fighters are pretty balanced, but I'm not sure about the Monk's issue. As for Clerics, it's been an ongoing issue since the Final book came out, more or less. Nothing new?
If you're gonna play a Cleric, seems to me you really need to spend some time investing in a creed. You've got these crazy Divine powers on tap, so your God is real and tangible. You need to play that up.
I don't think anyone is disagreeding with that. This tread is almost completely mechanics based, not theme and RP. Those two things really apply to every and all classes equally.
This tread is almost completely mechanics based, not theme and RP. Those two things really apply to every and all classes equally.
Mechanically, what is not to like? HD is okay, good Armor Proficiencies, saves are good. BAB isn't horrible. And you have access to divine spells! Throw in a Feat every other level and I say life as a PF Cleric is quite nice. The only area where they suffer is Skill Points. You can mitigate that issue by playing a Hu-mon and throwing your Favored Class Bonus into Skills.
I don't see where Cleric is a bad choice from either a mechanical or RP viewpoint.
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I alo personally feel they spend too much time on certain things, which even further shows the weaknesses in others. Too much. . .Oracle, Witch, and Inquisitor.Although I like the options these classes bring to the table, I found myself wondering why they weren't archetypes of existing classes instead.
That's what I said when the Playtest for the APG came out. . .
I would so much have prefered either or both Archtypes for existing classes, or Feat/Skill options. To me, most of the newer APG classes (while some are cool), absolutely scream as options for Cleric and Wizard, and now that they are their own class, I think it actually ruins some concepts for the original classes, to a point.Witch woud make a better variant Sorcerer or "heretical" Cleric, in my opinion. Oracle and Inquisitor would offer some very interesting twists to the Cleric rules. Alchemist could allow for some new Feat chains and options for less spell dependant spellcastig classes. Summoner I honestly wish was more of a summoning Druid, Wizard, or Cleric build.
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This tread is almost completely mechanics based, not theme and RP. Those two things really apply to every and all classes equally.Mechanically, what is not to like? HD is okay, good Armor Proficiencies, saves are good. BAB isn't horrible. And you have access to divine spells! Throw in a Feat every other level and I say life as a PF Cleric is quite nice. The only area where they suffer is Skill Points. You can mitigate that issue by playing a Hu-mon and throwing your Favored Class Bonus into Skills.
I don't see where Cleric is a bad choice from either a mechanical or RP viewpoint.
There are a lot of reasons, from a lot of different people. I'll try a quick recap. This is just off the top of my head, and many cross over a lot. These are also mostly opinions, and not necessarily all mine. So forgive me if it is confussing.
1.) Cleric offers 0% that other classes can't also do. So nothing unique. Except for the elemental Domains, they also get no 20th level Capstone ability, (practically the only class that doesn't).
2.) Mechanically speaking, they are very difficult to specialize (except as a generic Cleric, healer, or party buffer). And other Classes, (Oracle, Witch, etc. . .) is just better than the Cleric in various ways.
3.) From 3E to PF, they didn't get really anything cool or new. Every other class got upped in different ways, except the Cleric, and every other class has since gotten more and more from other books.
4.) Domains are disappointing fom the point of view of differintiating Clerics from each other, even of dramatically opposing faiths.
5.) Spelllist is very limiting, (in the same way as #4), as many Clerics, regardless of their faith, will have the same spells prepped.
6.) Channeling past level 5 or so, doesn't scale the way it should. It gets weaker and weaker the higher level you get.
7.) There are not many (any?) Cleric only options such as Feats.
8.) Too any needed stats to play a basic Cleric in a generic 4 person party. Especially in regards to Skills and being very good at any aspect of the game.
9.) There are too many circumstantial or "useless" spells on the Cleric spell list. And too few spells over all when you take into acount the various Alignment spells. Many spells need a big update to actually be functional, (Holy Aura, Holy Word, etc. . .), and many spells offer the same exact bonuses, so oth do not stack or offer anything new, but also leave many Cleric spell levels very bare. (3rd, 5th, 7th, and 8th, I believe are the big ones mentioned).
10.) The vast majority of Deity's Favored Weapons are already Cleric weapons to begin with.
11.) Clerics got nothing really from the APG, as so many other classes can use SubDomains, and sometimes even better than the Cleric, (they have better stats, or can cast them spontaniously, or other things).
12.) Of all the classes, Cleric is most needing of Archtypes and/or PCs to help offer variaty to such a generic class, but has gotten very few or none. The Archtypes presented in the Ultimate Magic preview are not that appealing, while some for other classes make excellent Cleric Archtypes.
13.) All the decisions are made at Cleric Level 1, and besides a second Domain ability at 4th, 6th, or 8th level, their chart is all dead levels. Every other class gets something new throughout their career, except the Cleric, and almost all get various choices as well, (Combat styles, Mystry choces, Bonus Feats, etc. . .)
14.) The double standard that only applies to Cleric.
15.) That Bloodlines, Arcana, Mysteries, all offer a lot of extra stuff, Class SKills, bonus Feats, and extra abilities while Domains do not.
16.) Domains are very poor at allowing the Cleric to play the type of Spellcaster they represent. A Fire Cleric, for example, only gets a max of 1 fire spell per spell level, (minus using higher level Domain spell slots). But at the same time, it is okay for other casters to stp al over the Cleric spell lst capabilities, but not the Cleric to do likewise.
17.) Lack of Skill Points, especialy for things that a proper Cleric should be trained in. For example, a Cleric should obviously be trained in Know: Religion, Spellcraft, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Heal, and possibly Know: the Planes. But a Cleric of the Animal Domain, ALSO needs Know: Nature, Handle Animal, and probably Survival. (A human Cleric putting favored Class into skills would still need an Int of 14 - 16, just to reasonably keep up some of those skills, and a 20 to be traned in all of them at level 1, like the aught to be).
And I likely missed some.
wrote up quite a laundry list
Did it ever occur to you that the Cleric was already, in 3.x, considered to be pretty damn powerful?
A Cleric gets to cast while wearing Armor and swinging a weapon. Dude, how is that just not powerful? What's more, a Cleric gets the second best BAB chart and a d8 HD. A Cleric can hold his own in the realm of combat. Loo at those Saves, too. He's got Will covered and that is huge.
Skills - I might have you wrong, but do you want to have your cake and eat it too?
There are 3 basic types of characters in this game
- Skill Monkeys
Martial Types
Casters
A Cleric is a Caster who gets decent Martial ability, but he sacrifices skills.
This is my opinion - I think Clerics are fine. I think the PF guys did a fine job with the class. I'm not trying to sway anyone here, so your mileage may vary. :)
wrote up quite a laundry listDid it ever occur to you that the Cleric was already, in 3.x, considered to be pretty damn powerful?
you are missing the point. It's not a primarily a matter of power. I would say it isn't a matter of power.
They are boring. at least at higher levels, say past level 9 or so. People are moving away from cleric to Oracles, Witches, Paladins and other classes.
Channeling past level 5 or so is useless.
The spell list at spell level 7 and 8 are boring.
3rd Spell level and to some extent 1st spell level don't scale and becomes useless too.
It's not a matter of power. If you just want to kill using divine favour, then most is fine. You can use 7th spell level slots for quicken spell, etc. and don't bother with flavour.
But if you are not all about going Codzilla they don't provide much versatility past level 9 or at least past level 11.
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wrote up quite a laundry listDid it ever occur to you that the Cleric was already, in 3.x, considered to be pretty damn powerful?
I've heard this a lot, but never actually seen it. I personally believe it was a poor rumor that spread from groups that play very atypical games, allow everything from any book, etc. . . But that's my opinion. But also, really has nothing to do with this thread.
It is that Clerics, unlike other classes do not really get any class features that they didn't already have some ability to do throughout levels 2-7ish, and then every level after that.
A Cleric gets to cast while wearing Armor and swinging a weapon. Dude, how is that just not powerful? What's more, a Cleric gets the second best BAB chart and a d8 HD. A Cleric can hold his own in the realm of combat. Loo at those Saves, too. He's got Will covered and that is huge.
Perfect example, if you want to look at this way, is then the Druid. Who also gets all of the above, AND more. Not just a few things, but a lot more. Arguably better weapons, same HD and BaB, but less stat dependant, better overall spells, (usefulness, working together over multiple levels, fun, and better opertunity to use overall), in all ways discussed here, class features past level 1, (and 1 or at most 2 other levels), more skill points, less ability for the DM to screw with you just because (alignment stuff, or I don't want you to do that just because. . .), better Feat options, better ability to play many different builds well and with minimal tinkering, and they gain so much more from most generic books that come out. Oh, and not only the same 2 good saves, but aditional class abilities that augment them in ways that help the Druid be good at what they are naturally good at, (fey, animals, plants). Druids also have abilities that no other class does, unlike the Cleric that both the Druid has actually stolen abilities from, and many other classes also do, many times using them more effectively or better than the Cleric themselves. All in all, Clerics have very little synergy with themselves, I think.
Sure, they can have non-mechanics based flavor like theur faith, but so what. Any and all classes get that. That's not the point at all.
But, again, this IS NOT about a peeing contest between 3E and PF, nor about Clerics vs other. It is about mechanically, Clerics being less fun than other classes.
They are boring. at least at higher levels, say past level 9 or so. People are moving away from cleric to Oracles, Witches, Paladins and other classes.
I would say in all honesty, it's more around level 5 or 6.
If you want to make a super awesome fighter, the answer should be to make a fighter.
