I still think you're selling the Dire Croc short, remember he does get the celestial template as well.
No I'm not selling it short. It can be great, but it is situational and usually not good when you dealing with high level powerful foes, such as undeads, evil outsiders and dragons.
The smite evil they get is not the same as the Paladin. It only grants the creature:"Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes"
Dire Croc has Char 2. Again I'm not saying it's useless all the time, but in a boss fight it usually is.
stuffBefore making snark remarks you could read the whole post.
I'm not saying all 7th-level spells suck all the time.
No, what you're saying is that Sturgeon's Law applies to 7th level spells and higher. :)
And that's fine, because, well, it's Sturgeon's Law. It doesn't necessarily necessitate that I agree, in part due to (again) different playstyles.
My main point of contention was your choice of phrasing, which due to the textual medium of this discussion could be taken as whinging and, in the case of the two bits quoted, kibitzing about spells that serve role-playing purposes...in a role-playing game.
Take my comment as seriously as you choose, but I advise a margarita with it if you don't have a salt shaker on hand.
I hope Paizo gets around to making a Faiths and Avatars for Golarion. I imagine such a book is way down the line if they ever do it, but that would be awsome. Faiths and Avatars was one of the best 2E books ever. Theys started to incorporate specialty priests into 3E Forgotten Realms.
I would love specialty priests as alternatve class options for Golarion rather than prestige classes. Generic clerics have always been boring. What Faiths and Avatars and specialty priests did for clerics made them huge fun to play.
Right now it's hard to find someone to play a cleric just like it used to be hard. Healing is a thankless job and the class lacks flavor. Once Faiths and Avatars came out, more of my players found the cleric a desierable class. It went from rarity to a equal choice to other classes.
I think a Golarion Faiths and Avatars book would do the same for the Pathfinder cleric.
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I kind of wish clerics had option to heal and do other active things as well. As much as I dislike 4E now, 4E Clerical s are great for that reason. I'm not going to spend a whole turn to heal you. I'm going to blast that Guy with holy light and as a side effect pump your moral and help you fight on a little longer.
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Holy Aura is a joke at level 15.
The problem of holy aura and several other clerical protection spells is that they give resistance and deflection bonuses.
I my last 3.5 campaign I have tried a different approach, with all the clerical spells with a alignment giving a divine (sacred/profane) bonus to AC and saves.
That way you make them more effective as most magic items don't give sacred or profane bonuses and you get to stack the bonuses (note that it make most outsiders spell like powers more powerful too).
As pathfinder has a different balance I haven't yet tried this approach in it.
Holy word: that is a tricky spell. Several creatures have one of its version and allowing it to effect people with more HD than the creature (and/or having stronger effects on people will less HD) will make them extremely strong.
As a side note: remember that the capacity to banish outsiders of the wrong alignment (after SR and ST) work independently from the creature HD. So it is not so bad.
Holy Word's definitely a different beast than in 3.5 (assuming non-inclusion of 3.5 material), in which it was pretty trivial to cast it at around +10 levels, but that's not an entirely bad thing.
I always thought the main draw to the higher level slots for a cleric was the ability to quicken better and better things.
Take my comment as seriously as you choose, but I advise a margarita with it if you don't have a salt shaker on hand.
I'll will try a mojito in a couple of weeks when I get to Cuba :-)
Edit:
No actually I said if my friend wants to heal, buff or protect his friends in battle or kill/hurt the BBEG then most of the high level spells suck. at least the 7th level spells.
Hey, where is that margarita? ;-)
good stuff
+1
Good point about banishing outsiders, still its not a great spell unless fighting lower levels enemies.
You are aware they've already announced 4 actual Archetypes and even provided stats for one of them, right? Zmar mentioned and linked to it already, but it seems like you might've missed it.
Nop, Saw them, didn't like them. But thanks for mentioned it.
Take my comment as seriously as you choose, but I advise a margarita with it if you don't have a salt shaker on hand.I'll will try a mojito in a couple of weeks when I get to Cuba :-)
Edit:
No actually I said if my friend wants to heal, buff or protect his friends in battle or kill/hurt the BBEG then most of the high level spells suck. at least the 7th level spells.Hey, where is that margarita? ;-)
That's what you LITERALLY said, but I was being facetious about how you chose to express your statement. More seriously, I can understand the sentiment, but between the people who indicated the value of higher slots for massive meta-magicking, and the time crunch I'm on for getting home from work, I can't go and given an itemized, more serious rebuttal to your claims in tandem with the sort of playstyle-differentiated applications my past games and groups have demonstrated.
That said, while I wholeheartedly endorse mojito action, the reason for the margarita recommendation is because, as with all things I may say, especially when I'm making snark, feel free to take it with a grain of salt.
I still think you're selling the Dire Croc short, remember he does get the celestial template as well.No I'm not selling it short. It can be great, but it is situational and usually not good when you dealing with high level powerful foes, such as undeads, evil outsiders and dragons.
The smite evil they get is not the same as the Paladin. It only grants the creature:
"Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes"Dire Croc has Char 2. Again I'm not saying it's useless all the time, but in a boss fight it usually is.
Um... the errata states otherwise on the smite evil -- it does work exactly like the paladin's smite evil now.
I am playing a cleric in the Second Darkness AP and he is anything but dull. He is a drunk, womanizing cleric of calistria. He is also the best bluffer, diplomacy, and sneaking character in the party. His +22 disguise (disguise self) and +12 bluff skill pretty allow him to become a Drow or anyone else he wants.
He wears no armor and spends almost every combat invisible sneaking around healing when neceasary, summoning creatures to harrass enemies, as well as dropping critical pells when needed.
So he is the party rogue, cleric, as well as his ability to command, hold person humanoid targets into submission. I think he has only physically attacked someone once, it is a little beneath him really...
The roleplaying has been a blast, he is one of the funnest characters I have played in my 30+ years of playing DnD...
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Im glad you are enjoying the character, but i don't think anyone is suggesting Clerics can't be roleplayed and enjoyed.
Rather that the actual mechanics behind the class are boring and sometimes unnecessarily restrictive, especially the further from the basic Cleric you get.
One can rp any class and enjoy it. That really has nothing to do with the Cleric. But every other class but the Cleric is given a lot of attention to focus in areas, to branch out, to replace features for better ones for a desired playstyle or concept, or to just play differently.
It didn't take long for the single thing that Clerics got in the APG to be availible to other classes, and as it stands, there is not a single thing that Clerics get in PF that other classes can't also get, and sometimes better than the Cleric. Oracles can get any Cleric spell, but are less stat dependant. Oracles, paladins, and Wizards can Channel Energy, and both Oracle and some Paladins already work off a higher Cha. Many classes have access to Domains now, some of which are not restricted to Domain slots only.
There are concerns about the spell list, both in the lack of" good" spells at certain levels, and the lack of number of spells as well. Then the fact many spells, especially buffs are redundent, offering the same bonuses over and over or not actually doing much.
And topics just like this keep coming up.
I take exception to the idea that oracles are less stat dependent than clerics.
I have also never known someone (anyone) that is playing a cleric to complain about the spell list, ever.
I have also never known someone (anyone) that is playing a cleric to complain about the spell list, ever.
I have in the past and will again in the future. It's the weakest part of the class to me, with so many spells, even the offensive ones, relying on specific circumstances to get off successfully, or even be of use. I don't even really bother with casting very many spells until I hit the 2nd level spells, except for bless and maybe one or two others occasionally. The rest of the party usually handles the fights well enough that by the time I manage to get anything cast anyway, the fight is already half over, and none of the 1st level spells are anywhere close to being able to end a fight on their own if the foes have even average will saves.
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I take exception to the idea that oracles are less stat dependent than clerics.
I have also never known someone (anyone) that is playing a cleric to complain about the spell list, ever.
I think its in this very thread, but it may be the other one about mostly the same thing. Its more about specific spell levels rather than in general. Like 3rd and 7th level Cleric spells, I think.
Um... the errata states otherwise on the smite evil -- it does work exactly like the paladin's smite evil now.
You didn't read the fine print, did you? ;-)
The errata on the Half-Celestial Template (page 169) has changed Smite Evil so it now works like the Paldin smite evil.
The Half-celestial Template is much more powerful than the Simple Templates "Celestial Creature".
- “Half-celestial” is an inherited or acquired template that
can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an
Intelligence score of 4 or more.
My bold. Then it goes on listing all the cool stuff a Half-celestial get.
The Simple Templates "Celestial Creature" (page 294) is still unchanged in the errata.
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I don't know about that. I love playing deityless clerics, which is to me where the vast majority of the real rp fun is. I don't mean just picking the best domains and weapon combo, but actually creating a faith and developing it through play and moral issues that established setting deity clerics simply can't.
But even as a fighter (warrior npc?) with clw, you still have the job of directing the party. Even more than say the paladin.
Not sure if you edited it or not, but I mean the first part I don't necessarily agree with.
I think its in this very thread, but it may be the other one about mostly the same thing. Its more about specific spell levels rather than in general. Like 3rd and 7th level Cleric spells, I think.I take exception to the idea that oracles are less stat dependent than clerics.
I have also never known someone (anyone) that is playing a cleric to complain about the spell list, ever.
First, There have been many threads where people have been complaining about the cleric, this thread including. .So Abraham is clearly wrong on that.
Second it's not merely about lame spell levels. DeathQuaker have made some very fine posts in this thread on that subject.
Well, I think there's still two different issues that other folks are talking about. [...] one of the issues is that Clerics don't have a lot that is "sexy" after 8th level or so---just a lot of extant abilities that grow more powerful, but nothing new. [...]
The high level spells issue I think are a separate issue--but still one worth considering (but I think JUST better high level spells doesn't add a lot of the flavor I think some folks are looking for. [...] When you glance at the cleric spell list at high levels, it looks like they have a bunch of spells. Then you realize a number of them one given cleric will never use, and the rest they will only use in highly circumstantial situations. There are a few notable exceptions--but they end up occupying the cleric's spells memorized list most of the time--there's not a lot of variety. Not much to do except to note that in design for the future, move away from alignment based/planar based spells. [...]
I imagine there's a bit of a bumming out when you're just bumping up your domain uses per day and channel dice when other classes are saying things like, "Woot! Evasion! And I get a new talent! And I got a Mercy!" etc.
So the problem with the cleric doesn't just boils down to boring/weak spell levels. here is her whole post:
Well, I think there's still two different issues that other folks are talking about.
You yourself said in your first reply to me that one of the issues is that Clerics don't have a lot that is "sexy" after 8th level or so---just a lot of extant abilities that grow more powerful, but nothing new.
The archetype issue--if you add in different, new abilities every few levels in place of channel energy--could deal with that.
The high level spells issue I think are a separate issue--but still one worth considering (but I think JUST better high level spells doesn't add a lot of the flavor I think some folks are looking for)--I'm running a very high level game and my cleric player has grumbled with good reason about the limited slots. APG spells helped (which came out too late to use in our campaign unfortunately) but not a lot (7th level needs some love).
The GOOD news on that end is likely there will be new Cleric spells in Ultimate Magic. It'd be best to evaluate that after it comes out. Of course, not everyone will USE Ultimate Magic--but then if anyone wants more out of the Cleric at this point, they're going to either use splats or homebrew their own stuff. So.
I think a big problem behind the "poor spells at high level" is that there are way too many alignment based spells. I understand why there are, and many are holdovers from older editions.... but unless you're in a game dealing with certain Outsiders, the spells are frakking useless. And it's annoying to figure out--okay, this dude's affected because he's lawful, but he's not affected because he's Chaotic, etc. When you glance at the cleric spell list at high levels, it looks like they have a bunch of spells. Then you realize a number of them one given cleric will never use, and the rest they will only use in highly circumstantial situations. There are a few notable exceptions--but they end up occupying the cleric's spells memorized list most of the time--there's not a lot of variety. Not much to do except to note that in design for the future, move away from alignment based/planar based spells.
I should disclaim that I actually like the cleric as it is, and even appreciate the simplicity that there AREN'T new abilities to learn and add to the character sheet as the cleric levels. Sometimes I like a character sheet that isn't 8 miles long at level 7. But I also totally understand where they other point of view comes from. I imagine there's a bit of a bumming out when you're just bumping up your domain uses per day and channel dice when other classes are saying things like, "Woot! Evasion! And I get a new talent! And I got a Mercy!" etc
As for oracles being less stat dependent than clerics, well that's obvious.
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There's a spell list you wont use: Cure spells are all you'll get to cast, because even if you're smart enough to use tactics your team-mates arent. (Leroooooooooooy Jenkins!!!) Your BAB means you dont miss as much as a wizard, but you still almost never hit. Saves? meh. Medium Armor means the mooks will miss you; only the BBEG gets the pleasure of killing you. yay :roll: Simple weapons means your damage, on the rare occasions you do hit, wont really be worth the effort.
Can I munchkin a cleric to be worth playing? sure. But I shouldnt have to munchkin a character for it to be salvageable.
My players choose the kind of cleric want to use, and choose domains accordingly. you are trying to do at best 4 things, of course you will not be the best.
Seriously, I look at the old 3.5 cleric, I look at this thread, and I start to ARRRRRGHBARBLARRGGHHH
I will never understand people.
I think the biggest issue is how the cleric and cleric builds relate to roles they will generally fill in a typical 4 person party. Let's examine a hypoethetical to illustrate. Your party is planning character creation and
so far your friends have decided upon:
1) Fighter (Sword and Shield TWF for high damage/survivability ratio)
2) Rogue (TWF High DPR build with sufficient skills to handle typical rogue tasks
3) Wizard (Summoner/Controller)
As player #4 mulls over his options, Cleric looks like an obvious choice.The party clearly needs a face, some out of combat healing, positive energy for dealing with haunts or undead, and an auxiliary striker/flank buddy. So the player starts putting together a battle cleric build. Then he realizes in order to make a battle cleric work his social skills will necessarily suffer and he won't be an effective face. so he reimagines the character as a ranged cleric perhaps. Crunching the numbers again, he runs into the same problem that in order for the combat aspect of the cleric to be viable and effective, face skills suffer again. He briefly considers a disrupter/debuffer before realizing the same issues. It's a good aligned party so cleric necromancer is clearly out. Finally he defaults to a pure support/caster build. This allows him to be an effective face and take care of between combat healing and status effect removal, but his combat support really feels lacking as a result, and he's wishing he'd made an Oracle of Battle or perhaps a Paladin.
Therein lies the issue I believe many people have: the role of a traditional cleric is hard to reconcile with the realities of viable cleric builds for pathfinder. Clerics have to be more specialized then before and this is true for them more so than other classes. For example, the aforementioned combat optimized rogue can fulfill "skillmonkey" duties just fine, and didn't really have to give up much in order to do so.
I do feel this could easily be addressed, or at least mitigated however. If Clerics, like Oracles, had 4+ int mod skill points, it would go a long way to offsetting such issues, but that's just an off the top of my head suggestion. When one thinks of the typical 4 person party cleric in terms of skills: Spellcraft, Knowledge Religion, Heal, Diplomacy, Sense Motive all jump out at you. Just to cover the aforementioned basics requires a +2 int modifier for a human and +3 for nonhuman. It's possible to spend favored class points, but its very hard to keep skills maxed with such and if you, your hp falls behind which is not a good thing for a flanker with a poor reflex save. Feasibly, you could delegate Religion to the Wizard who will undoubtedly have ample knowledge skills, but what does that say when a cleric has to know less about religion then the wizard in an attempt to "cover the basics" so to speak?
How is the Cleric more boring than any other class?
I get the feeling that some people like to come here and complain and play devil's advocate. With this being the internet they are always going to find people to agree with them. There are legitimate problems with ANY CLASS so should we make a "xx is boring" thread for all of them.
If you play all your clerics the same despite the VASTLY different religious choices and domains available, then that's your problem. There are high Dex, Con, Cha clerics of various ilks of which to create.
IF you are still letting the members of your group pigeon hole you into being a healbot, I suggest you man up and the the group "Healin will be done after battle". Once they see you wreck shop with some Divine Favor, etc they'll come up with some more amenable battle strategies real quick.
I'm not saying Cleric's are the greatest or that no one has legitimate gripes, but the majority of the "problems" being discussed are not due to the makeup of the class.
First, There have been many threads where people have been complaining about the cleric, this thread including. .So Abraham is clearly wrong on that.
I said, "people I know..."
Not, "Random people I meet on the internet."
Not the same thing at all.
I might like many of you -- but I don't really know any of you. As such of the people I know of which the subsection that play clerics none of those complain about the cleric's spell list.
So I wasn't wrong -- people simply misunderstood what I typed.
As to the template you are correct -- they are still lacking the bonus on AC -- however that is a nice but fairly small part of the smite compared to the charisma bonus to hit (which for most animals is small to non-existent I agree) and the hit dice bonus on damage (which can be much nicer).
A large portion of the summoning issue though comes down to alignment for clerics since it can limit what they can summon and how useful the tactic is for them.
How is the Cleric more boring than any other class?
I get the feeling that some people like to come here and complain and play devil's advocate. With this being the internet they are always going to find people to agree with them. There are legitimate problems with ANY CLASS so should we make a "xx is boring" thread for all of them.
If you play all your clerics the same despite the VASTLY different religious choices and domains available, then that's your problem. There are high Dex, Con, Cha clerics of various ilks of which to create.
IF you are still letting the members of your group pigeon hole you into being a healbot, I suggest you man up and the the group "Healin will be done after battle". Once they see you wreck shop with some Divine Favor, etc they'll come up with some more amenable battle strategies real quick.
I'm not saying Cleric's are the greatest or that no one has legitimate gripes, but the majority of the "problems" being discussed are not due to the makeup of the class.
Let's take these in order:
1) How is the cleric more boring than other classes? Look at the tables for each class and count up how many abilities they get. Now go to the cleric. The Pathfinder cleric is a wonder of simple design, so simple it's almost elegant. You pick 2 domains, which grant 2 powers each, and you get channel energy. There, done with that. You're a primary spellcaster with the ability to select any spell on your spell list. Except for the ones which oppose your alignment or your deity's alignment. So what's left? Some summon spells, some protections, buff/debuffs, and healing, plus divinations. Sounds like a lot, right? Till you realize you don't want some of those spells all the time; you don't need them. You wisely put them on scrolls, get wands, etc. What's left? More importantly, you just took your plethora of spells and pared it down by a good deal. You find yourself only using a handful of spells of any given level, the rest kept in magic items "just in case". Ah, but you have domain abilities, you say. Yes, you do. Two to start, two more later on, maybe an extra here or there. Those abilities emulate low/mid-level spells, and they get more damage/uses/duration. But that's about it. Go compare that to a wizard or sorcerer, with bonus feats, bloodline abilities, school abilities, etc. You have the potential flexibility of a wizard regarding your spells, but really, you won't be using most of them very often if ever.
2) Your comments regarding the different religions are true. But the gist of the discussion isn't about different religions. It's about mechanics. Clerics aren't the only spellcasters with 9th level spells, medium BAB, 2 good saves, channel energy, or domains. The life oracle can heal as well as a cleric, roughly; the battle oracle kicks butt just as well. Bards are just as good at support, perhaps more so. Paladins and life oracles can channel energy like you. In terms of design space, the cleric doesn't seem to have much to really offer that another class can't match or exceed. I personally wonder if in their eagerness to help spread healing into the other classes so people don't feel like clerics are only good for healing if designers (and this could be applied to WotC or Paizo) forgot to then make the cleric truly unique.
3) Healbot and after-battle healing. In an ideal world, the tactics of the group will permit healing to occur after battle. The occasional heal spell at higher levels, that's about it. We're not in an ideal world. Sometimes, monsters ambush you. Crit you. Make you blow saves. You have to be ready, or someone else does. The problems here though expand beyond the role of healbot; they have to do with what the cleric's niche really is, and how the mechanical aspects of the game reinforce that niche or can be expanded beyond it, to give the cleric a fresh, unique identity on its own.
For the record, I'm Deathquaker's cleric. I'm the one who has groused about 7th level spells having little to offer. Summon monsters, holy word, and not much else. Destruction fails if you haven't optimized your saves against tougher monsters, not all of us are creating undead hordes, and so on. For a long time I was filling my 7th level spell slots with 6th level spells, as they were far more useful to my everyday adventuring.
First, There have been many threads where people have been complaining about the cleric, this thread including. .So Abraham is clearly wrong on that.
I said, "people I know..."
Not, "Random people I meet on the internet."
Not the same thing at all.
I might like many of you -- but I don't really know any of you. As such of the people I know of which the subsection that play clerics none of those complain about the cleric's spell list.
So I wasn't wrong -- people simply misunderstood what I typed.
Man Abraham, I often agree with you on many things, but you are really abusing the english language on that one. I mean you are using very strong language to emphatically state your case, then hiding behind your interpretation of "know."
My grandfather passed away from cancer before I was born, so I didn't really "know" him either. But wouldn't we agree that it would be really misleading for me to say "I have also never known someone (anyone) to die from cancer, ever." to promote my case without any sort of clarification?
Man Abraham, I often agree with you on many things, but you are really abusing the english language on that one. I mean you are using very strong language to emphatically state your case, then hiding behind your interpretation of "know."My grandfather passed away from cancer before I was born, so I didn't really "know" him either. But wouldn't we agree that it would be really misleading for me to say "I have also never known someone (anyone) to die from cancer, ever." to promote my case without any sort of clarification?
Well he is also just as much abusing the language to state I am somehow 'wrong' for stating that of the people I know those that play clerics don't complain about the spell list due to the fact that other people post on the internet and complain of the spell list...
I'm sorry -- that's not an abuse of the language -- that's an abuse of logic.
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1) How is the cleric more boring than other classes? Look at the tables for each class and count up how many abilities they get. Now go to the cleric. The Pathfinder cleric is a wonder of simple design, so simple it's almost elegant. You pick 2 domains, which grant 2 powers each, and you get channel energy.....
OK how different is this than any other class?
Ranger - pick battle styles and the rest is the same as any other ranger...
Wizard- Pick specialization and the rest is the same spells any other wizards gets....
Thief- pick finesse weapon, dual wield to hit, sneak attack, then pick skills 4-6 of which are practically set in stone....
(insert class): repeat
LOL, I"m still failing to see the major difference between the chocie clerics get and other classes do. The feats and skill set THE PC chooses to use are what separates the various classes.
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1) How is the cleric more boring than other classes? Look at the tables for each class and count up how many abilities they get. Now go to the cleric. The Pathfinder cleric is a wonder of simple design, so simple it's almost elegant. You pick 2 domains, which grant 2 powers each, and you get channel energy.....
OK how different is this than any other class?
Ranger - pick battle styles and the rest is the same as any other ranger...
Wizard- Pick specialization and the rest is the same spells any other wizards gets....
Thief- pick finesse weapon, dual wield to hit, sneak attack, then pick skills 4-6 of which are practically set in stone....
(insert class): repeat
LOL, I"m still failing to see the major difference between the chocie clerics get and other classes do. The feats and skill set THE PC chooses to use are what separates the various classes.
LOL! Yes, I agree, each class can be said to suffer from the same thing. From a certain point of view, to quote an old Jedi :) But let's continue in this thread, which this week is about the cleric ;p Personally, I can see how people enjoy roleplaying clerics-I certainly do! But here's something else to look at: the lack of unique class abilities.
Barbarians: rage
Bards: perform
Cleric: ?
Druid: wildshape
Fighter: bravery, weapon/armor training
Monk: lots o' stuff
Paladin: Mercies
Ranger: favored enemies
Rogue: talents
Sorcerer: bloodlines
Wizards: specializations
Alchemists: mutagens
Cavaliers: orders
Oracles: curses, revelations
Inquisitor: judgment
Witch: hexes
Summoner: eidolon
Every character, regardless of class, can have a unique background and personality. But in terms of what each brings to the table, the cleric loses out on domains and channel energy. That leaves a spell list which lacks the variety of the wizard/sorcerer list in terms of different types of effects (with good reason) and the lack of the shall we say reliable punching power of a druid. Since the cleric can't expand beyond the healing/buffing/divination role via spells, it seems that domains and channel energy would be the way to go. Channel energy reinforces the healing role, however, despite the intention of letting the cleric cast their spells instead of just healing people. Yet the cleric spell list has been in and of itself pigeon-holed since OD&D. That leaves domains. Yet a cleric can cast at maximum 9 spells at the highest levels from their domains, one of each level from 1-9. No domain gives out 9 spells from another spell list, so the cleric still has at least 80% of their magic coming from the same spell list as every other cleric at the highest levels. Domain powers? Well, that's four powers, so there is some variation. Just not much. And those four powers will separate you from other clerics, unless they share your domains. Or unless the other cleric has some VERY different ideas about what constitutes a "useful" spell to have that day....
@LAthiira
I can see your pointe, but I guess I think a lot of domains and channel energy whereas some others see them as pretty weak. I see Strength giving my Half-Orc Cleric the ability to rage, I see Liberation: as giving me a Belt of Freedom of Movement (after 8th level). I see Divine Favor as making me a melee participant once quickened etc.
I've played Clerics far more than any other class and I've never felt the way many people expressed in this topic so it could be personal preference.
To me Monks and Rogues are the most boring class but I'm sure many people would shoot me down much as I'm doing the anti-cleric crowd in this debate.
@Dave
That's assuming you accept Treatmonks assertions as fact. I don't at all.
TreantMonk gave a wonderful summation of why you didnt want to be the cleric in his guide on wizards.
Actually he didn't say a word about clerics. He expounded on "healers" and players who don't play to a useful role in combat using a cleric using normal unbuffed attacks as an example.
Everything he said could be said about a healing druid, or a ranger using thrown weapons and no survival ranks (I've actually had a player o this before he was in fact wasted space).
TreantMonk gave a wonderful summation of why you didnt want to be the cleric in his guide on wizards.
Actually he didn't say a word about clerics. He expounded on "healers" and players who don't play to a useful role in combat using a cleric using normal unbuffed attacks as an example.
Everything he said could be said about a healing druid, or a ranger using thrown weapons and no survival ranks (I've actually had a player o this before he was in fact wasted space).
I think clerics are largely fine, but I do think 2+int mod is a bit low for the skills a cleric will generally be expected to cover in a typical 4 person group. Giving cleric 4+ int mod would open up a lot of possibilities and likely rectify a lot of concerns.
One thing I've been doing for some time now is designing quest spells for clerics in my campaigns. Depending on their deity I design 1-3 unique spells that relate to their deity aspect(s) and an adventure is undertaken to learn these rare divine spells. I've found it helps to fill gaps in the spell list, and give more of a custom feel to each cleric.
There seem to be a lot of people suggesting that because the cleric [i]eventually[/] became broken in 3.5 if you included all the splat books? I don't get how that helps your case that the cleric is where it needs to be mechanically. To me it weakens any such arguments because all it does is emphasize just how bad the core cleric was. The Pathfinder cleric is better off, but still miles behind everyone else. The domains still fall flat in actual practice. Even with subdomains, they still end up feeling lacking at higher levels.
There seem to be a lot of people suggesting that because the cleric [i]eventually[/] became broken in 3.5 if you included all the splat books? I don't get how that helps your case that the cleric is where it needs to be mechanically. To me it weakens any such arguments because all it does is emphasize just how bad the core cleric was. The Pathfinder cleric is better off, but still miles behind everyone else. The domains still fall flat in actual practice. Even with subdomains, they still end up feeling lacking at higher levels.
Wait -- because you can gain rage at 8th level like a barbarian the subdomains are weak?
Because you can switch around people's healing from positive to negative energy with the undead domain subdomains are weak?
The fact that the lust domain makes them give you their stuff, stand there praising you, or fight for you means they are lacking?
Somehow gaining leadership for free is lacking?
The ability to make your opponents randomly lose spells per day is not worthy? Or to grant bonuses at first level the bard can't match (nobility)?
Are we looking at the same subdomain powers?
And somehow because others can have the same features takes away from the cleric?
What about the poor wizard that constantly gives spells to the cleric to cast for domain spells?
The paladin that gives his smite abilities to monsters, and his channel positive energy to clerics (as well as his lay on hands to monsters)?
The fighter that allows no less than 4 other classes (or subclasses) to use his fighter only feats?
The barbarian who's rage the cleric takes with the ferocity subdomain?
The rogue who loses sneak attack to the sandman bard, assassin, master spy and others?
The wizard who because his supposed spell list is so 'great' gets to share his basic stats with a commoner?
Really I'm not seeing how the cleric is behind anyone.
Really I'm not seeing how the cleric is behind anyone.
People are upset because they aren't necessarily "ahead" of anyone either. Mainly because they don't specialize to their roles enough because of peer pressure. I don't give in to peer pressure. I smite it, raise it as undead and command it to murder my enemies as undead peer pressure is quite deadly.
I didn't say the the powers were bad in and of themselves, but after level 8, you get nothing new but spells. Even wizards and sorcerers get more than that at this point. It may still be a very strong class mechanically, but when your highlight of leveling up is hoping that at least one of your new domain spells isn't already on the cleric list, so that you at least get something beyond the basic list, it kinda lacks in the excitement factor, which is not good when they don't have anything truly unique to boost the excitement factor up.
It doesn't take a lot to make the class interesting on a mechanical level, but if people keep insisting that the class is fine as it is and anyone who tries to look for fixes is wasting their time, than rather than finding the little adjustments that would make it worth the space, it ends up being change everything at the edition change, and 4E found out the hard way that approach has its share of problems as well.
The quest spells is an awesome idea. I do it when I DM, but sadly have never had it happen when I play.
I'm still working on the quest spells for our current campaign which we just started. I have a battle cleric of Gorum in the group so my ideas thus far are 1) a smite type spell inspired by the Fury of the Abyss ability from the demon subdomain 2) a debuff that increases target damage taken from all sources and for 3) possibly a force effect hand type spell that can perform combat manuvers, this spell would scale and be able to peform additional combat manuvers as the cleric levels. If you have any input or suggestions feel free, those are just three ideas that struck me as appropiate rare spells for a Gorum battle cleric. I know you and Tark are among the resident cleric gurus so I'd really like to hear what you two have to say about them as well as anyone else for that matter.
On another note as for the difficulties of filling the FOP role with a battle cleric, I must say hand of glory from the Heroism domain has served quite well thus far.
The quest spells is an awesome idea. I do it when I DM, but sadly have never had it happen when I play.2) a debuff that increases target damage taken from all sources and for
In light of battle cleric spell save DC's scrapping this idea, and replacing it with a spell that buffs threat range, damage rolls, and confirm crit rolls for the group. (Think of it as haste battle cleric style. Ideas 1 and 3 are still solid I think but I need to flesh out the spells and post for some feedback.
The quest spells is an awesome idea. I do it when I DM, but sadly have never had it happen when I play.I'm still working on the quest spells for our current campaign which we just started. I have a battle cleric of Gorum in the group so my ideas thus far are 1) a smite type spell inspired by the Fury of the Abyss ability from the demon subdomain 2) a debuff that increases target damage taken from all sources and for 3) possibly a force effect hand type spell that can perform combat manuvers, this spell would scale and be able to peform additional combat manuvers as the cleric levels. If you have any input or suggestions feel free, those are just three ideas that struck me as appropiate rare spells for a Gorum battle cleric. I know you and Tark are among the resident cleric gurus so I'd really like to hear what you two have to say about them as well as anyone else for that matter.
On another note as for the difficulties of filling the FOP role with a battle cleric, I must say hand of glory from the Heroism domain has served quite well thus far.
It's a cool idea, and one that I would likely implement when I finally get around to running an actual campaign.
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The quest spells is an awesome idea. I do it when I DM, but sadly have never had it happen when I play.I'm still working on the quest spells for our current campaign which we just started. I have a battle cleric of Gorum in the group so my ideas thus far are 1) a smite type spell inspired by the Fury of the Abyss ability from the demon subdomain 2) a debuff that increases target damage taken from all sources and for 3) possibly a force effect hand type spell that can perform combat manuvers, this spell would scale and be able to peform additional combat manuvers as the cleric levels. If you have any input or suggestions feel free, those are just three ideas that struck me as appropiate rare spells for a Gorum battle cleric. I know you and Tark are among the resident cleric gurus so I'd really like to hear what you two have to say about them as well as anyone else for that matter.
On another note as for the difficulties of filling the FOP role with a battle cleric, I must say hand of glory from the Heroism domain has served quite well thus far.
I have some ideas for you, but not the time to post them at them moment.
One that i've always liked is an upgraded Spiritual Weapon that allows multiple weapons. I tend to do things that break the rules, so a lot of "holy" damage or damage like with Flamestrike. Offer things appropriate to the individuals build and beliefs, but just as importantly things that are useful compaired to what other spells they can cast.
For an archer, elf, or skirmished/trickstr type, i might give Cats Grace, or a similar spell that gives a +2 sacred bonus to Dex. I also tend to favor spells sort of along the lines of Divine Power and Righteous Might, but more like granting aspects of your deity. Wings, a dragons tail, sacred armor, etc. . .
Or a Mage Armor like spell that increases a subset of spells as well (+1 or 2 CL).
That sort of thing.
I am working on a homebrew alternate to the spellcasting. Will post later, but I want to thank this thread for reminding me of the beta version of the cleric.
As a side note, the beta wasn't considered too strong. It was changed back for compatibility purposes. nothing says you can't use that version in your home game.