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I wouldn't mind a cleric with 7 spell levels with a more condensed and improved spell levels. The cleric would need some more spell slot each level and she would need some spell like abilities,SU and/or domain based abilities.
Remember how sawing throw and metamagic work.
Cutting away the last 2 levels will nerf a lot of options.
I wouldn't mind a cleric with 7 spell levels with a more condensed and improved spell levels. The cleric would need some more spell slot each level and she would need some spell like abilities,SU and/or domain based abilities.
Remember how sawing throw and metamagic work.
Cutting away the last 2 levels will nerf a lot of options.
Good Points. Two of the problems the bard have.
Cleric with 7 spell levels probably isn't a good idea.
Quicken spells are nice so you need high level slots.
sawing throws isn't that big od a problem since:
a) Cleric high level spells suck anyway.
b) Level 8 and 9 spells could be extra domain spells or domain powers.
But you got a point. Let the cleric stay as it is but give it some more options. A feat that give them access to high level domain powers, new high level spells that are actually good and "specialized uses for channel energy".
I actually like the Cleric at lower and mid levels (but even at higher levels they are less fun/useful).
The fact that they are tied to a faith makes it a good role playing class.
As a cleric you can more easily use metamagic feats such as Reach Spell and Heal.
An Oracle has to spend a full round action casting a Reach Spell so it's not as appealing to an Oracle.
Problem with Oracle vs. Cleric is most good spells are at spell level 2- 4 (and some level 1 spells) and most of them keeps on being useful at high levels. At higher levels Oracles will have all the 2, 3 and 4 level spells they need.
Protection from evil, Remove Fear, Bless, Divine Favor,
Remove paralysis, Align Weapon, Lesser Restoration, Silence, Resist energy, Shield other
Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge, Magic circle against Evil, Prayer, Remove Blindness/Deafness
Air Walk, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Restoration.
A lot of these spells are excellent to use as quicken spells.
And a lot of spells, like Breath of Life, Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison, Remove Blindness or Remove Fear are situational, but when you need them, you really do need them.
This Favors the Oracle. A Quicken Remove paralysis or Align Weapon can save the day. And access to Breath of Life or Remove Blindness is great if the need arises.
Things get worse the higher you get. By the time the Oracle get her hands on Heal and Greater Dispel Magic she have all the spells she needs and the rest is just a bonus. From that point on the Cleric just gets more and more obsolete.
The Oracle: No good high level spells? I just use the spell slots to cast quicken spells and I don't even have to prepare them.
Edit:
This is the big difference between Cleric vs. Oracle and Wizard vs. Sorcerer.
- The arcane list have really good and sexy high level spells.
Wizards get more skill ranks since their casting stat is Int. So Wizards get more skills ranks than the Socerer.
Wizards get bonus feats (something new at higher levels).
Since Wizards don't use weapons they can easier use meta magic rods, so they can use quicken spell even though they haven't prepared the "right one".
And yet I like the Cleric :-)
In 3.5 the cleric needed those high-level slots for Persistent (24-hour-duration) spells -- especially if the DM banned "nightsticks" (dubbed "Mozzarella Sticks" by someone I know, because of the cheese factor). By selecting Easy Metamagic, you were looking at a +5 spell level adjustment to make party buffs last all day, instead of 1 round/lvl -- EVERY cleric did this, if they got to high enough level. A 6th level spell slot could give you, in effect, a slotless ring of protection, for example.
Persistent Spell, while a must-have, definitely made clerics distinct from the other classes who didn't get so much mileage from that particular feat.
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Persistent Spell, while a must-have, definitely made clerics distinct from the other classes who didn't get so much mileage from that particular feat.
It was also excellent for giving the player some uses for those Turning/Rebuking uses if they didn't care about undead. I wish there where more feats like this, honestly.
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Yes, mechanically clerics is just fine; however I agree with the OP that they are a little bland. I used to always volunteer to play the cleric back in 3.X, but now, for many people I know including myself, it has become the class we draw the short straw for at the beginning of a campaign. Heck, I prefer supporting a party via a bard rather than a cleric. Whenever I play a cleric, I notice this weird pressure from frantic players all looking at me expecting to heal *every single round* I play this character. It's a pain in the ass. And it has led me to shout at the table at least once or twice to get my point across (i.e. if some players are so anal to have their PCs *constantly* at full HP, they should play a cleric themselves)
Now, on the crunch side: Selective Channeling should come for free at 5th and Turn Undead should also come for free (say at 10th).
The domains could also perhaps give a few little extra bits at higher levels.
There should be more immediate action spells on their list.
Now, on the crunch side: Selective Channeling should come for free at 5th and Turn Undead should also come for free (say at 10th).
Actually those should be part of a selection of feats a la monk's or rangers and one of those options should be heavy armor proficency. OR tie in a series of bonus feats to the domain selection so that as you gain levels you get goodies. Pick the bonus feat from the ones available to your domains at X level.
I think clerics just need a bit of spice, ideally related to their faith. If there were a few abilities unique to the deity, and more expanded domain abilities, this might go a long way towards restoring the flavor of the cleric. I had tried to sort the basic spells per sphere in 3.5, but only got to the beginning of the complete series - it was quite a bit of work :) .
Specialty priests a la 2nd edition could also work, at least as optional classes, but that would take a fair bit of work. I really liked the idea of a "inner circle" of the clergy that is even more changed by their deity's dogma, though.
Also, I'd prefer to see the dogma, holidays and rituals of the various faiths with their commandments for clerics and paladins expanded upon. Right now paladins have the big honking code (vaguely if at all related to their patron deity), and clerics get a rather broad guideline. Kinda weird, considering whom the deity graces with more power and makes more representative of the religion.
I have an idea in mind that I think might address some gripes while maintaining there level of power and not adding more options then necessary. My plate's kind of full atm but it sounds like a fun side project.
To give you an idea I do agree that the spontaneous cure spells are a bad hold over from 3rd ed. But spontaneous domain spells are quite a good idea. They also need a capstone and possibly ways to make their channeling relevant past the low levels beyond the command/turn feats.
I have just the thing for you.
Is this a replacement for the cleric, or what does he lose that the cleric has?
Overall, I'd prefer a comprehensive overhaul of the cleric than an alternative. We already have enough classes stepping on Johnny B.Pious' fingers :) .
Also, I'd prefer to see the dogma, holidays and rituals of the various faiths with their commandments for clerics and paladins expanded upon. Right now paladins have the big honking code (vaguely if at all related to their patron deity), and clerics get a rather broad guideline. Kinda weird, considering whom the deity graces with more power and makes more representative of the religion.
Doesn't Faiths of Purity do exactly that ?
Doesn't Faiths of Purity do exactly that ?
Actually, I just learned about the book today, and it certainly sounds promising. Does anyone know if there's anything in it that details the codes of various paladin orders? So far I've only seen one for the paladins of Shelyn.
Edit: By Koparka's everflowing fins, so it does. Yet another reason this is not a good month for my savings, apparently.
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I have just the thing for you.Is this a replacement for the cleric, or what does he lose that the cleric has?
Overall, I'd prefer a comprehensive overhaul of the cleric than an alternative. We already have enough classes stepping on Johnny B.Pious' fingers :) .
The book does contain an alternate cleric class - the divine channeler, but the use of the majority of ideas in the book can be incorporated into the cleric class as is, via feats. It is not so much an overhaul as a supplement, allowing you to further customize the base clerics according to domains, using the class's channeling ability as the base mechanic. Because the cleric gains the abilities detailed in the book through the expenditure of feats, he does not lose anything.
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Doesn't Faiths of Purity do exactly that ?Actually, I just learned about the book today, and it certainly sounds promising. Does anyone know if there's anything in it that details the codes of various paladin orders? So far I've only seen one for the paladins of Shelyn.
Edit: By Koparka's everflowing fins, so it does. Yet another reason this is not a good month for my savings, apparently.
Yes faiths of purity hase codes for eacy of the good gods that can have paladins. There are 1-2 feets per god but any one can take the feats. There are 1-2 spells per god and you must worship the god to get them. There are 2 traits per god. Mostly the book is flavor and is realy well done. I have to say it's probly the best faith book I have seen for a RPG.
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Specialty priests a la 2nd edition could also work, at least as optional classes, but that would take a fair bit of work. I really liked the idea of a "inner circle" of the clergy that is even more changed by their deity's dogma, though.
Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur and the idea of the Specialty Priest are the top three things I miss most from 2nd edition.
When the 2e DMG came out, it had a smallish chart of class abilities and ranking them by 'cost,' for custom class design, and I went nuts and made a dozen specialty priests for the various Realms deities in use in my current campaign, so that a 'cleric' of Tymora was radically different from a 'cleric' of Mystra or a 'cleric' of Torm.
My players loved it. We had a party consisting of a cleric of Tymora, a cleric of Lleira and a cleric of Torm, and even though all three of them had a smaller spell access than the 'generic' cleric (and more or less armor, ThacO, hit dice, weapon and non-weapon proficiencies, etc. than the generic cleric, or the horrifyingly broken cleric + wizard options for clerics using Legends & Lore gods like Isis), much fun was had.
I don't know what game you all have been playing, or how you define "bland" but to me Clerics are the best class in the game (Inquisitor is my favorite).
Religion offers infinite role-playing possibilities and domains help to differentiate between clerics. I don't see how one class can be any more bland than the next but apparently many people feel that way.
I keep hearing about a "Feat-tax" and all this other noise but selective channeling is not what I consider a must have feat nor is Heavy Armor proficiency. the only must have feat in my book is Toughness (I take that no matter the race or class).
So I guess my answer is "clerics are not bland" step up your imagination folks, stop playing your character just by his mechanics and step outside the box.
I don't know what game you all have been playing, or how you define "bland" but to me Clerics are the best class in the game (Inquisitor is my favorite).
What?
Yes but what does Inquisitor have to do with anything?
Yes but what does Inquisitor have to do with anything?
Has nothing to do with it (although it does point to a preference for the divine). I just through that in the mix.
And Paladin code of conduct has absolutely no connection to their deity. It is based entirely on their alignment restrictions.
Which is part of what is so curious about it, considering that in most cases they are empowered by their deity, not by their alignment. If anything the LG code should take the backseat, or just be a "rule 0" (do no evil) to their oaths.
Personally I discourage people from playing Clerics because I feel they're too good. I'd be happy to see the class become obsolete.
The basic tenets of the class, metal armor and all, don't really work well for customization because the class is calibrated to figure you're using all of these things. So a cleric of, say, seduction, would really have no thematic reason to be wearing heavy metal armor.
Google image search "Chainmail Bikini" and you may change your mind.
The thing that pisses me off about Pathfinder, is the same thing that's pissed me off about DND since they introduced the concept of domains. The domains AREN'T HISTORICAL.
Try building a cleric of any real god in the real world, and the domains just don't freaking fit. Every pantheon had at least one, sometimes three, deities of fertility. Is there a fertility domain? NOPE! You can hodge one together out of charm and plant or something but it's not the same. Every pantheon had a lightning god, but to do that in DND you have to go with Air! Air is a different god! God of Wind! Weather/Storms sorta fixes it, but not a lot. And then there's some domains you just cant find ANY historical gods who had. Liberation? Rune?
As someone who utilizes real Earth gods exclusively in games, it's always driven me nuts. The developers didn't start where they should have - real gods. Instead, they started with the spell list, and then compiled a list of spells they wanted to give clerics, and then apportioned them into like groups to form their domain lists. Bass Ackwards if you ask me.
/rant
I think there are two problem with the Cleric.
1) In 1st ed they only had 7 spell levels. in 3.x the high level spells where smeared out over the last 4 spell level 6 - 9. The cleric lack good high level spells. The fact that heal and mass heal are the only good high level healing spells proves this. Healing in battle using mass cure spells doesn't really work and the rest of the high level spells aren't much to talk about.
I wouldn't mind a cleric with 7 spell levels with a more condensed and improved spell levels. The cleric would need some more spell slot each level and she would need some spell like abilities,SU and/or domain based abilities.
Turning the cleric into a divine bard would be a terrible idea. No one, (or very few) would play the cleric. It would be too weak. Giving the Cleric the same spell progression as the bard would make her weak, useless and boring.
2) The Cleric isn't sexy enough. Nothing new really happens once you get your second domain power. That's why a lot of people preferred the Beta Cleric, even though the Core Book cleric is actually more powerful. And I guess that's why more and more people prefer playing Oracle, Paladin, Witch or even Inquisitor when playing a character with healing abilities. Heck, even druid is more sexy and their high level spells are much more fun and powerful.
True nothing much happens when you level up as a fighter, but they get a lot of feats so you can customize them more. Also as a fighter you can multiclass. As full caster that isn't really a good idea most of the time. Also if a high level fighter picks one level bard, Cleric, Ranger or Paladin he can use wands, boost his saves, get more cool skills etc. Picking one level fighter if you're a cleric doesn't really change that much.
Bard and Barbarians suffers a bit from the same problem, but they can multiclass. They can pick Fighter levels or ranger levels, etc.
The core cleric would never be weak or boring if they are the only awesome healers in the game...and in core, that would still be true.
You can always add in level 7 8 and 9 effects with domains. but those then become REALLY special.
Their combat ability would be almost unaffected...all the good combat buff spells are 5th or less.
==Aelryinth
Specialty priests a la 2nd edition could also work, at least as optional classes, but that would take a fair bit of work. I really liked the idea of a "inner circle" of the clergy that is even more changed by their deity's dogma, though.Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur and the idea of the Specialty Priest are the top three things I miss most from 2nd edition.
When the 2e DMG came out, it had a smallish chart of class abilities and ranking them by 'cost,' for custom class design, and I went nuts and made a dozen specialty priests for the various Realms deities in use in my current campaign, so that a 'cleric' of Tymora was radically different from a 'cleric' of Mystra or a 'cleric' of Torm.
My players loved it. We had a party consisting of a cleric of Tymora, a cleric of Lleira and a cleric of Torm, and even though all three of them had a smaller spell access than the 'generic' cleric (and more or less armor, ThacO, hit dice, weapon and non-weapon proficiencies, etc. than the generic cleric, or the horrifyingly broken cleric + wizard options for clerics using Legends & Lore gods like Isis), much fun was had.
My CN specialty priest of tempest was a favorite, could cast cure or cause spells. could raise zombies for the purposes of battle (recycleable heroes) and toss around the slay living spell. (back when inflict spells were cause spells and slay living was powerful)
REally a cult classic, you can't do that with a cleric anymore.
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Pay attention to promised cleric archetypes at the bottom of the page. So clerics of seduction (cloistered clerics) and undead (undead lords) are hopefully about one month away.
The core cleric would never be weak or boring if they are the only awesome healers in the game...and in core, that would still be true.You can always add in level 7 8 and 9 effects with domains. but those then become REALLY special.
Their combat ability would be almost unaffected...all the good combat buff spells are 5th or less.
==Aelryinth
A) Not all players want to play a heling cleric
B) Why would a nerfed cleric be a better healer?C) No high level spell slots no quicken level 3rd, 4th and 5th spells
D)Bard spell progresion suck if you are a cleric. 4:th level spell at level 10 instead of level 7? C'mon.
E) Level 7, 8 and 9 effects with domains = Crappy DC unless they are based on wis.
F)The problem isn't the cleric. The problem is crappy spell list and designers running out of ideas. DeathQuaker put it so well:
- the cleric class features are still modular enough you could make archetypes out of them (which is why the APG entry for clerics was so disappointing)
Channel Energy goes up every other level. Swap with something else that goes up every other level. SLAs, combat boosts, etc.
Domains: You get a special ability at 1st and 8th level, and bonus spells. This is also swappable.
yep, DeathQuake has a point.
Yet, the problem is not the lack of archetypes. The problem is the sh*tty spell list. New archetypes don't fix that problem. Easy fix would be....better high level spells.Our Neutral Good Cleric just hit level 13. What should I tell him? Sorry level 7 spells suck but you could always prepare some more heal spells in those slots. Or pick quicken spell as a feat and use them to cast quicken Prayer?
7th–Level Cleric Spells
Any buff spells? - No
Any protection spells - No
Any good healning spells - No
Any battlefield control spells - No
My friend wants to be able to heal, buff, protect in battle or kill/hurt the bBBEG. Let's have a look at the 7th-level spells.
Holy Word /Blasphemy / Word of Chaos/ Dictum - Ah one spell for 4 alignments. (How very useful for the game designer. One spell for each domain. Does, Chaos and Law domain suck? Yes). Let have a look at these crappy spells:
Saving Throw? - yes
Spell Resistance? - yes
Only good vs. HD lover than your caster level? - Yes
Useless vs. evil boss whose HD exceeds your caster level? - Yes
- Holy Word /Blasphemy / Word of Chaos/ Dictum - suck (unless fighting critters).
Control Weather - Sucks. (Druids, Wizards and Sorcerers get this one too, where is my powerful cleric only spell?)
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass: - Suck (as do all mass cure spells)
Destruction: - Sucks. (Harm is better. Harm + Reach Spell is much better.)
Ethereal Jaunt: Suck / Circumstantial. You may carry one scroll with this.
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass - sucks
Refuge: - sucks (A nice spell if you want role playing/story)
Regenerate: Sucks. I have used this once in all my years of playing. A character broke an arm and I had to use a 7th level spell to fix that. Clerics are good healers? A 7TH LEVEL SPELL TO FIX A BROKEN FINGER OR A BROKEN ARM!
Repulsion: - Sucks
Restoration, Greater: Good, but not in battle.
Resurrection: - Good, but not in battle.
Scrying, Greater: Nice, but not in battle. And this is a Wizard spell, where is that powerful 7th-level Cleric spell.
Summon Monster VII: Sucks. No "good" creature on the SM7 list. If you are evil you may have fun.
Symbol of Stunning - Sucks (unless you are GM)
Symbol of Weakness - Sucks (unless you are GM)
8th–Level Cleric Spells any better? - No, not much.
...which is to say, 'Where's my uberpwnage?'
Perhaps made most noticeable with one little phrase.
(A nice spell if you want role playing/story)
Summarizes the attitude, though perhaps not as blatantly as...
(Druids, Wizards and Sorcerers get this one too, where is my powerful cleric only spell?)
Differing play styles, I guess, and I will leave it at that.
Stuff.
So I guess anything that requires spell resistance or a save sucks. Got it. I'll just stop playing enchanters, illusionists, and transmutists then.
Summon Monster VII: Sucks. No "good" creature on the SM7 list. If you are evil you may have fun.
This si what I take issue with. You realize I can summon more of something lower level right? Or just summon a Greater Elemental, or Celestial Tyrannosaurus.
I'm okay with the higher level spells sucking a bit. Just gives me better reason to use the slots for metamagicked 3rd level spells.
Summon Monster VII: Sucks. No "good" creature on the SM7 list. If you are evil you may have fun.
I'm still debating whether or not this is sarcasm. Are you honestly trying to say that a list that gives you Vrocks, Bebiliths, and T-Rexes is a bad summoning list. Then there is the dire crocodile, the garguantuan death-rolling dire crocodile with +30 grapple. . .
I remember a thing from the 3.5 Splatbooks: Paragon Levels
This means at specific levels you can choose to get specific abilities instead of a spell slot of a specific level.
e.g.
Dwarf Cleric
1st Level - Att/Dmg Bonus vs. Giants (have to sacrifice one 1st level spell)
4th Level - Free Weapon Prof., Weapon Focus and +2 Dmg with Warhammer (have to sacrifice a level 2 slot)
I think such "alternatives" would be nice, maybe race or deity relatet. Of course this needs a lot of work and if it's deity relatet it only counts for the golarion deities, but it will allow you to develop your cleric in a specific direction.
(Maybe you can also create "cleric archetypes with such alternative abilites, e.g. Battle-Priest, Warden, Cloister-Cleric etc.)
Reread what they said. Croc is situational due to enviroment, and Brock and Bebilith both fall under the evil has fun part. So that leaves the T rex, (aka big thing that doesn't fit into a dungeon).
Why is a Cleric summoning T rexes?
:)
Other then size considerations I fail to see how the croc is situational, they need not be in water to grapple and with D-roll you can sustain grapple with bite damage each round. I've been in plenty of dungeons that could house a T-Rex and furthermore not all combat is inside a "dungeon" unless said campaign is hyperlinear. If none of that works for you, summon multiple from VI. Neutral clerics can also have fun with the aforementioned demons, but I will concede it is far more convenient to summon as a wizard w/o such alignment restrictions.
stuff
Before making snark remarks you could read the whole post.
I'm not saying all 7th-level spells suck all the time.
I'll be honest: from the standpoint of flavor, I don't like the cleric.
Maybe it's because it has been a mainstay of the game for so long that it's grown stale to me - and also because in recent years, especially among 4th Edition players, there's been a bigger focus on the cleric-as-warpriest build, which I feel infringes upon the purvey of the paladin.
If my party were in a position where they desperately needed a healer, I would much rather run an oracle with the Life mystery than a cleric, just for the flavor the class offers.
Also, for those of you who are disillusioned by the cleric as it is, whether in terms of flavor or mechanics, I'd recommend taking a look at Adamant Entertainment's Tome of Secrets. It contains an alternate base class called the priest that I find to be a great alternative to the cleric (the priest build is also available at d20pfsrd.com). The priest is closer to my own interpretation of how divine casters should function, which is more in the vein of Final Fantasy's white mages and George Martin's maesters. This class doesn't solve all the mechanical drawbacks mentioned earlier in the thread, but it is a nice, fresh take on a class that could use a little revision, IMO.
now im just going to have to go play a cleric on purpose and dote about how cool it is.
So I guess anything that requires spell resistance or a save sucks. Got it.
I didn't say that. I said Holy Word (and its sister spells) all have saving throw, spell Resistance and are useless if you're up against something whose HD exceeds your caster level.
I'll just stop playing enchanters, illusionists, and transmutists then.
Why should you? If you like it, go ahead. Arcane caster got far more versatility on their 7th-level spells. But if a spell has both a Saving Throw and Spell Resistance they are usually weaker as attack spells or as battle field control spells.
This si what I take issue with. You realize I can summon more of something lower level right? Or just summon a Greater Elemental, or Celestial Tyrannosaurus.
Read Beckett post and add: If you are a good cleric in a boss fight they suck (or suck most of the time). I would say they are highly situational at best.
Using these spells in a fight with a powerful dragon, powerful evil outsider, powerful undead is not a great idea. There are far more useful spells. Most of these "bosses" got crazy AC, Saves, DR, Spells or SPA and resistance/immunities.When you're up against high level casters things also get crazy. I agree smite helps, but Celestial Template make the summon good. So protection from good protects casters from them.
The fact that cleric usually don't have a reason to pick augmented summoning and lack magic fang makes it even more problematic. The full round casting doesn't make things easier.
Finally, huge or bigger is usually a disadvantage and animals have crappy saves.
Just gives me better reason to use the slots for metamagicked 3rd level spells.
On this we agree ;-)
Again, not all 7th-level cleric spells suck all the time, but on that list there are no:
buff spells, protection spells, good healing spells, good battlefield control spells or good attack spells when dealing the BBEG. Agree SM may be used as a battlefield control spell, but there are far more powerful/useful spells of lower level that I would use.
In Pathfinder, there is no such thing as a crappy base class......
There are only crappy players.....yeah I said it.
So I guess anything that requires spell resistance or a save sucks. Got it.
I didn't say that. I said Holy Word (and its sister spells) all have saving throw, spell Resistance and are useless if you're up against something whose HD exceeds your caster level.
I'll just stop playing enchanters, illusionists, and transmutists then.
Why should you? If you like it, go ahead. Arcane caster got far more versatility on their 7th-level spells. But if a spell has both a Saving Throw and Spell Resistance they are usually weaker as attack spells or as battle field control spells.
This si what I take issue with. You realize I can summon more of something lower level right? Or just summon a Greater Elemental, or Celestial Tyrannosaurus.Read Beckett post and add: If you are a good cleric in a boss fight they suck (or suck most of the time). I would say they are highly situational at best.
Using these spells in a fight with a powerful dragon, powerful evil outsider, powerful undead is not a great idea. There are far more useful spells. Most of these "bosses" got crazy AC, Saves, DR, Spells or SPA and resistance/immunities.When you're up against high level casters things also get crazy. I agree smite helps, but Celestial Template make the summon good. So protection from good protects casters from them.
The fact that cleric usually don't have a reason to pick augmented summoning and lack magic fang makes it even more problematic. The full round casting doesn't make things easier.
Finally, huge or bigger is usually a disadvantage and animals have crappy saves.
Just gives me better reason to use the slots for metamagicked 3rd level spells.On this we agree ;-)
Again, not all 7th-level cleric spells suck all the time, but on that list there are no:
buff spells, protection spells, good healing spells, good battlefield control spells or good attack spells when dealing the BBEG....
I still think you're selling the Dire Croc short, remember he does get the celestial template as well. In short you get a smiting grappler who by means of death roll, can sustain bite damage every round while grappling. Obviously, it isn't a be all end all for every monster type or circumstance, but in the right circumstance you've effectively taken 1 big baddie out of the fight permanently.
yep, DeathQuake has a point.
Yet, the problem is not the lack of archetypes. The problem is the sh*tty spell list. New archetypes don't fix that problem. Easy fix would be....better high level spells.
Well, I think there's still two different issues that other folks are talking about.
You yourself said in your first reply to me that one of the issues is that Clerics don't have a lot that is "sexy" after 8th level or so---just a lot of extant abilities that grow more powerful, but nothing new.
The archetype issue--if you add in different, new abilities every few levels in place of channel energy--could deal with that.
The high level spells issue I think are a separate issue--but still one worth considering (but I think JUST better high level spells doesn't add a lot of the flavor I think some folks are looking for)--I'm running a very high level game and my cleric player has grumbled with good reason about the limited slots. APG spells helped (which came out too late to use in our campaign unfortunately) but not a lot (7th level needs some love).
The GOOD news on that end is likely there will be new Cleric spells in Ultimate Magic. It'd be best to evaluate that after it comes out. Of course, not everyone will USE Ultimate Magic--but then if anyone wants more out of the Cleric at this point, they're going to either use splats or homebrew their own stuff. So.
I think a big problem behind the "poor spells at high level" is that there are way too many alignment based spells. I understand why there are, and many are holdovers from older editions.... but unless you're in a game dealing with certain Outsiders, the spells are frakking useless. And it's annoying to figure out--okay, this dude's affected because he's lawful, but he's not affected because he's Chaotic, etc. When you glance at the cleric spell list at high levels, it looks like they have a bunch of spells. Then you realize a number of them one given cleric will never use, and the rest they will only use in highly circumstantial situations. There are a few notable exceptions--but they end up occupying the cleric's spells memorized list most of the time--there's not a lot of variety. Not much to do except to note that in design for the future, move away from alignment based/planar based spells.
I should disclaim that I actually like the cleric as it is, and even appreciate the simplicity that there AREN'T new abilities to learn and add to the character sheet as the cleric levels. Sometimes I like a character sheet that isn't 8 miles long at level 7. But I also totally understand where they other point of view comes from. I imagine there's a bit of a bumming out when you're just bumping up your domain uses per day and channel dice when other classes are saying things like, "Woot! Evasion! And I get a new talent! And I got a Mercy!" etc.
The thing that pisses me off about Pathfinder, is the same thing that's pissed me off about DND since they introduced the concept of domains. The domains AREN'T HISTORICAL.Try building a cleric of any real god in the real world, and the domains just don't freaking fit. Every pantheon had at least one, sometimes three, deities of fertility. Is there a fertility domain? NOPE! You can hodge one together out of charm and plant or something but it's not the same. Every pantheon had a lightning god, but to do that in DND you have to go with Air! Air is a different god! God of Wind! Weather/Storms sorta fixes it, but not a lot. And then there's some domains you just cant find ANY historical gods who had. Liberation? Rune?
Off the top of my head:
Liberation: The God of the Old Testament. Liberation is a big theme. Not going to discuss in depth because I want to avoid analyzing a living religion in terms of a game. It just occurred to me.Rune: Hermes, Thoth, Odin, IIRC. Invented or used alphabets and sigils of power in one way, shape, or form. C.f., "Hermetic Magic."
As someone who utilizes real Earth gods exclusively in games, it's always driven me nuts. The developers didn't start where they should have - real gods. Instead, they started with the spell list, and then compiled a list of spells they wanted to give clerics, and then apportioned them into like groups to form their domain lists. Bass Ackwards if you ask me.
I wouldn't presume that's what the devs were thinking (unless there's something you know). My impression was that they made up domains suitable to the portfolios of the Oerth Gods, before they thought about historical ones.
I think the challenge faced in designing domains is twofold:
1. Coming up with a reasonably sized list of domains that can be applied to multiple gods in multiple settings. You CAN make a domain for every unique god you ever come across, but at least for people like me, that gets overwhelming to track after awhile. You COULD have a Wind Domain AND an Air Domain and a Lightning Domain and a Static Electricity Domain but it starts to get a little silly after awhile. Lumping domains together in broad themes may not always be ideal, but probably, IMHO of course, the most sensible thing to do. Subdomains help a little with the specialization.
2. Coming up with domain ideas that are playable for an adventuring party. Because this is for an adventure game, domain abilities and spells need (generally and very broadly speaking, of course) to have utility in adventures. You mentioned fertility. Yes, there are a lot of fertility gods, in our own mythlore and in our fictional fantasy worlds. But it's going to take work to make a "fertility domain" that isn't silly or unnecessarily offensive. What is your domain power, to touch a female and make her ovulate? I'm being exaggeratedly silly here--certainly, maybe you could have gifts according to growth and the like--but again, it's not really something that fits the fantasy adventure paradigm, even if it's suitable for a typical pantheon. If you come up with such domains that do work well, I hope you post them.
I do hear your frustration--I'd love to see a "justice" domain (instead of "law") for gods like Tyr. And for various gods of love and other passions, an "emotion" domain--I never got why we had the more limited "charm", but it's a holdover from 11 years ago that we're stuck with; it would be better suited to love, lust, hate, sorrow, fear subdomains instead. At the same time, I can usually come up with a lot of uses for the domains that do exist, be they for invented pantheons or ones from our own history, but I can't always think of adequate new domains for the latter that would truly be usable in a tabletop RPG. Just my 2 cents.
stuff about adapting real earth gods to pathfinder domains
..to the working document for my campaign. I've got somewhere around 200 gods from earth pantheons listed out in a domain matrix, and I'm still not very happy with it. It's a LOT harder than you think, once you really start to tackle it.
Well, I think there's still two different issues that other folks are talking about.You yourself said in your first reply to me that one of the issues is that Clerics don't have a lot that is "sexy" after 8th level or so---just a lot of extant abilities that grow more powerful, but nothing new.
You are absolutely right. I got carried away, my bad.
Some might say though that the new funny/sexy stuff is more spells and when that spell list isn't funny/sexy you get frustrated. I guess some more cool abilities or new options at higher level would change stuff. I think that's one of the reasons people liked the Beta Cleric.I guess we both agree the cleric doesn't need more power, she only need new, different powers.
The archetype issue--if you add in different, new abilities every few levels in place of channel energy--could deal with that.
True, my fear however is that Ultimate Magic won't fix this, since the APG didn't fix it.
More great stuff
+1
I think a big problem behind the "poor spells at high level" is that there are way too many alignment based spells.[....] When you glance at the cleric spell list at high levels, it looks like they have a bunch of spells. Then you realize a number of them one given cleric will never use, and the rest they will only use in highly circumstantial situations
+1
I actually think it's odd the cleric doesn't get any good buff, protection and healing spells at higher levels. Mass Cure suck and Holy Aura is a joke at level 15. So far I haven't even found a spell that protects from the Wraith's ability drain (since it isn't energy drain nor a negative energy effects). Not even at level 13.
[...] Sometimes I like a character sheet that isn't 8 miles long at level 7. But I also totally understand where they other point of view comes from. I imagine there's a bit of a bumming out when you're just bumping up your domain uses per day and channel dice when other classes are saying things like, "Woot! Evasion! And I get a new talent! And I got a Mercy!" etc.
+1