I don't have time to read all the thread carefully, so maybe somebody has already told that.
If a creature is disguised/polymorphed/whatever in a FE ? Does the ranger get his FR bonuses ?
If you can deny FR bonus because the ranger is not aware of the nature of the creature, can you allow them because he thinks the creature is a FE ?
I think not. The easiest way should be to applicate the bonuses behind screen. It's game balance, and doesn't give nformation (except maybe when there is DR).
In the first scenario, the party is already going to know something is up after they win. Also, even though they know the doppelganger isn't their friend, he's clearly their best lead to finding their friend, so killing him probably isn't the best choice. When they make their "discovery", I would remind them of that if I were the GM, and now the difficulty doesn't really change. Assuming the PC's win though, the results are the exact same after combat is over.
I'm not in the habit of nudging the players that hard unless I intend for them to go a certain route, and then I simply give them a "gut check" (d20+lvl+Int+Wis) against a DC I've set (usually adjusted to be easy, moderate or hard vs. the best scores in the party or vs. the character most likely to be attempting the check if that's discernible beforehand).
In this case, they may have continued to softball the doppelganger, in the hopes of interrogating it after the fight, or they may have just killed it, since it was very nearly killing them. He was the best martial character in the group and the psion wasn't loaded down with effects that could be used in this case without risking killing their ally.
In the end, sure, they end up with a doppelganger, but the tension during the fight was what was truly important. Even if they realized it wasn't actually their friend, but that they needed to keep it alive, whatever it was, the entire feel of the encounter would have changed. The surprise at the end, when the half-orc in armor turned out to be this alien looking thing would have been gone.
You wanted a real example, and that is a real example. You can try to wave it off as ending up the same, but it doesn't in any way except in the most sterile mechanical fashion. When players aren't expecting a doppelganger, the confusion, anxiety and surprise are worth more than the simple, eventual, knowledge of what was going on. Cutting [i]that[i/] out just by giving a ranger his FE bonuses feels like you're losing much more than you're gaining.
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A hypothetical scenario can be a likely scenario, but that doesn't make it an event that has happened in the past. Have doppelgangers impersonated humans in games before? Sure, but unless we're referencing specific instances, all we're using are generalizations and hypothetical.
Which is likely all we have to go on, as there isnt any specific rule written to handle the situation. Since there isnt, this most likely falls into the realm of GM decision.
It's like the Class vs. Class debates that go on so often on these boards. If you aren't using concrete examples of Actual Play, each side can continue to present more hypothetical situations or add extra potential facts to back up their points. You and I could go back and forth, adding/subtracting variables to a scenario where FE does/doesn't have an effect on the outcome of a scene. With an Actual Play scenario a lot of that is removed and we can see the effect the rule actually has on the outcome.
Its nothing like a class vs class debate. Those are strictly numbers in their hypothetical, and this is about the story of the game. Yes, it all very well mgith work out the same way in the end, but the game isnt the end, its about the means. Who cares if you kill the dragon if the entire story is 'You go find the dragon and kill it. YAY!'
You wanted a real example, and that is a real example. You can try to wave it off as ending up the same, but it doesn't in any way except in the most sterile mechanical fashion. When players aren't expecting a doppelganger, the confusion, anxiety and surprise are worth more than the simple, eventual, knowledge of what was going on. Cutting [i]that[i/] out just by giving a ranger his FE bonuses feels like you're losing much more than you're gaining.
This is exactly what Im talking about in the above statement.
I don't have time to read all the thread carefully, so maybe somebody has already told that.
If a creature is disguised/polymorphed/whatever in a FE ? Does the ranger get his FR bonuses ?
If you can deny FR bonus because the ranger is not aware of the nature of the creature, can you allow them because he thinks the creature is a FE ?
I think not. The easiest way should be to applicate the bonuses behind screen. It's game balance, and doesn't give nformation (except maybe when there is DR).
So far it is coming down to GM discretion. Almost everyone who has posted in the thread so far has agreed applying the bonus behind the screen makes sense.
You wanted a real example, and that is a real example. You can try to wave it off as ending up the same, but it doesn't in any way except in the most sterile mechanical fashion. When players aren't expecting a doppelganger, the confusion, anxiety and surprise are worth more than the simple, eventual, knowledge of what was going on. Cutting that[i/] out just by giving a ranger his FE bonuses feels like you're losing much...
While I see where you're coming from I have to completely disagree. In this example the GM will already know the ranger has the bonus so he shouldn't build an encounter using a creature the ranger has FE against. The GM should just use a different monster disguised if he wants to confusion, anxiety and surprise.
The ranger has sacrificed part of his class abilities to getting a bonus against a type of creature he's not guaranteed to ever fight; I don't see the purpose of refusing him the bonus. The GM has far more options than the player and if he can't let the ranger have his bonus because of some arbitrary need to create an atmosphere he should be able to create it another way.
In short if this were the scenario I'd lay complete blame on the GM for loosing the atmosphere he wanted, not the player's choice to use his limited resources.
EDIT: At the least the bonuses should be granted behind the screen. In that case the atmosphere wouldn't be ruined either.
In this example the GM will already know the ranger has the bonus so he shouldn't build an encounter using a creature the ranger has FE against. The GM should just use a different monster disguised if he wants to confusion, anxiety and surprise.
The ranger has sacrificed part of his class abilities to getting a bonus against a type of creature he's not guaranteed to ever fight; I don't see the purpose of refusing him the bonus. The GM has far more options than the player and if he can't let the ranger have his bonus because of some arbitrary need to create an atmosphere he should be able to create it another way.
In short if this were the scenario I'd lay complete blame on the GM for loosing the atmosphere he wanted, not the player's choice to use his limited resources.
EDIT: At the least the bonuses should be granted behind the screen. In that case the atmosphere wouldn't be ruined either.
+1 to all of this. FE bonuses don't come up often (in my experience), so let the Ranger keep his toys. Apply the bonuses behind the screen if the opponent's type isn't already player knowledge, and let the chips fall where they may. If the players figure it out, good for them! If that derails your carefully crafted story and plot... well, welcome to RPG's.
You wanted a real example, and that is a real example. You can try to wave it off as ending up the same, but it doesn't in any way except in the most sterile mechanical fashion. When players aren't expecting a doppelganger, the confusion, anxiety and surprise are worth more than the simple, eventual, knowledge of what was going on. Cutting that[i/] out just by giving a ranger his FE bonuses feels like you're losing much...
I appreciate the real example. I think it is the exact case study we needed to know how the bonus would affect the story. I wasn't trying to wave it off, I was looking at the situation and analyzing how a GM could handle it without changing any of the actual facts. I was also looking at what actual information is gained (they know it's a Monsterous Humanoid) and how it might affect the game play what a GM could do to maintain it. And yes, one feeling of nervousness is gone... but it's completely replaced by another "Where is our friend?!?"
I actually do think it's a GM's job to help frame the scenario for the players. I've seen players and GM's both get frustrated in a campaign because the GM is trying to give subtle hints and players either see them immediately and zero in on them, or they completely miss them and never find out the wonderful plot the GM has made. Just because you remind them of an option or make something perfectly clear isn't bad or railroading, as long as you give them the option to do what they want.