I love metamagic. Like a lot. I wish Pathfinder had taken a few more steps to make it more usable. Perhaps nothing quite as disturbingly powerful as the Incantatrix prestige class, but still, more ways to actually use metamagic feats would be nice.
We can cheat in applying our metamagic in a few ways, namely metamagic rods, (which are fantastic in their own right, even if you can only use one at a time) but also in Oracle capstones, the Arcane Trickster's tricky spells, and I think a few others. This still doesn't really address what I'd like: actually using the metamagic feats. (Beyond Quicken)
There are a few things that make the metamagic feats more useful, these being Magical Lineage and Spell Perfection. (Kind of Preferred Spell as well, given you can add metamagic spontaneously as a wizard.) Spell Perfection is fantastic, but you can't use it until level 15. Your campaign might be over before you ever get a chance to use it.
I'd like there to be more feats that support metamagic or a caster archetype that focuses on metamagic (and don't tell me universalist) or some prestige class that isn't nearly as good as the Incantatrix, but with the same spirit of being a master of metamagic. Pehaps the Ultimate Magus would be a good inclusion, although other options would be great.
I'm still hoping to cast that Silent Still Intensified Elemental (Acid) Empowered Persistent Dazing Widened Fireball, but perhaps I'm being a bit too greedy here. (Oh how I miss thee, Arcane Thesis) Regardless, I hope you throw us metamagic users a bone in Ultimate Magic or somewhere else in the future.
Anyone else hoping for some support so we can actually use our metamagic feats?
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Incantatrix? This sounds familiar...what book was it in?
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I use heighten spell quite a bit. Sometimes I can't find a good spell at a certain level, so I just "promote" one of my existing spells to fill in the gap, especially if they are control spells that relies heavily on their saves. Heighten web is a good one and so is heighten grease. I think I might also heighten spiked pit instead of getting acid pit (which destroys the loot)...
Respectfully, this is not a good idea in my opinion.
In my experiecne, one of the things which was more ablt to break a 3.5 game was casters stacking metamagic reducing reducing effect.
And let's not start on Incantatrix...
Spontaneous Metamagic is kinda neat.
So is this PDF, if I do say so myself. :)
At the 3.5 splatbooks there were "sudden metamagic" feats, they allow casters to modify one spell per day by a specific metamagic feat, without raising the spell level needed. As far as I remmeber also spontanouse.
Maybe such a think would be nice (1/day isn'T this gamebreaking)
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Incantatrix? This sounds familiar...what book was it in?
Player's Guide to Faerun - Incantatrix had full caster levels, gave you 4 bonus feats and a ton of amazing abilities that allowed you to add on metamagic for free. The capstone reduces the cost of all metamagic by 1, to a minimum of +1. (So applying quicken to a spell is only +3, empower +1, etc.) There was so much cheese, you couldn't believe it. If you were a Wu Jen you could use Body Outside Body to make abuse your limit of 3+Int usage of abilities per day, you could make the duration of any spell 24 hours with persistent... There's a lot more, but I think you get the gist. Broken, broken, broken.
I use heighten spell quite a bit. Sometimes I can't find a good spell at a certain level, so I just "promote" one of my existing spells to fill in the gap, especially if they are control spells that relies heavily on their saves. Heighten web is a good one and so is heighten grease. I think I might also heighten spiked pit instead of getting acid pit (which destroys the loot)...
I imagine you're a spontaneous caster? I can't do this as a wizard. D:
Respectfully, this is not a good idea in my opinion.
In my experiecne, one of the things which was more ablt to break a 3.5 game was casters stacking metamagic reducing reducing effect.
And let's not start on Incantatrix...
Well, as I said don't bring back the Incantatrix. It was stupidly good and it came it hardly any cost. (You had to give up 1 additional school. So what? You just became the god of metamagic) ...and I'm not suggesting they reprint Arcane Thesis either. (As much as I liked using it. >.>) I just want ways to make my metamagic feats more relevant.
Spontaneous Metamagic is kinda neat.
Interesting... o.o
I'd like there to be more feats that support metamagic or a caster archetype that focuses on metamagic (and don't tell me universalist)Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer?
It doesn't really do that much. Sure, it increases your DC by 1, and you can cast spells without increasing the casting time. (A limited time per day until level 20) So your metamagic spells are a little tougher, and your capstone lets you cast like a wizard. Still not what I'm looking for.
Spontaneous Metamagic is kinda neat.So is this PDF, if I do say so myself. :)
All of these options seem pretty interesting, but I'm hoping that TPTB will add something like this into the actual game. >.< Maybe like the new thing where you can start out choosing to be a wordcaster, you can start out choosing to be a metamagic caster...? Meh.
At the 3.5 splatbooks there were "sudden metamagic" feats, they allow casters to modify one spell per day by a specific metamagic feat, without raising the spell level needed. As far as I remmeber also spontanouse.
Maybe such a think would be nice (1/day isn'T this gamebreaking)
Yeah, they were balanced, and I did kind of like them, but they're actually a bit underwhelming. Still, it can get the job done... *remembers the day he cast an Sudden Widened Sudden Maximized Empowered Fireball* Ah, the days of thinking fireball was the best thing since sliced bread. ^^
Well, as I said don't bring back the Incantatrix. It was stupidly good and it came it hardly any cost. (You had to give up 1 additional school. So what? You just became the god of metamagic) ...and I'm not suggesting they reprint Arcane Thesis either. (As much as I liked using it. >.>) I just want ways to make my metamagic feats more relevant.
In this case, I would buff SLIGHTLY and very carefully the generalist wizard class features. Could be a start, but is very dangerous ground - it's simple jump into the "overpowered" territory.
The universalist wizard gets 7 levels of 'free' metamagic over 12 levels, starting at EIGHT.
Ugh.
A specialist gets a free spell every level. That's (wait for it) FORTY-FIVE levels of free 'stuff'.
You get a free metamagic. I just memorize the damn spell in my higher free spell slot, tyvm. And if I want a spell from an opposition school, guess what? it just means I go down to having the SAME amount of spells as you do.
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I believe the redone Mystic Theurge can pay MM costs out of the other class, can it not?
the biggest problem with PF is that it doesn't have enough dmg enhancing feats to make direct damage truly viable, unlike 3.5 (Twin Spell, wherefore art tho?). And Empower and Maximize STILL don't stack...insane.
And they build the iconics as DD builds. Completely nuts.
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===Aelryinth
The universalist wizard gets 7 levels of 'free' metamagic over 12 levels, starting at EIGHT.
Ugh.
===Aelryinth
I agree the universalist as is is bad (hence the suggestion to buff it). nevertheless, I just fear a possible abuse if one goes too far.
Universalist isn't quite incantrix bad. At level eight, they do not get free quicken. They can't free quicken until level 14. Also it doesn't allow you cheat up to higher than you can cast. So they still have to play fair, they just get a discount.
Universalist isn't quite incantrix bad. At level eight, they do not get free quicken. They can't free quicken until level 14. Also it doesn't allow you cheat up to higher than you can cast. So they still have to play fair, they just get a discount.
I think that'd be d&d understatement of the century. Comparing the worst wizard option in Pathfinder to the most broken wizard option in 3.5? Anyway, the universalist's ability, although it would make a nice bonus that I'd gladly take, does not even compare with what I'd like to see. Even by level 20, you can still only quicken with it once per day. To make it worse...
Even though this ability does not modify the spell's actual level, you cannot use this ability to cast a spell whose modified spell level would be above the level of the highest-level spell that you are capable of casting.
Ugh. And this is supposed to be the redeeming ability that makes a Universalist worth considering? You really might as well be specializing and get the bonus spell slots.
The universalist wizard gets 7 levels of 'free' metamagic over 12 levels, starting at EIGHT.
Ugh.
A specialist gets a free spell every level. That's (wait for it) FORTY-FIVE levels of free 'stuff'.
You get a free metamagic. I just memorize the damn spell in my higher free spell slot, tyvm. And if I want a spell from an opposition school, guess what? it just means I go down to having the SAME amount of spells as you do.
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I believe the redone Mystic Theurge can pay MM costs out of the other class, can it not?the biggest problem with PF is that it doesn't have enough dmg enhancing feats to make direct damage truly viable, unlike 3.5 (Twin Spell, wherefore art tho?). And Empower and Maximize STILL don't stack...insane.
And they build the iconics as DD builds. Completely nuts.
===============================Aelryinth
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The APG gave us a ton of fun new metamagic and we may see some more in Ultimate Magic... Honestly, I'm not terribly concerned with whether or not we get the uber metamagic like Twin and Persistent. We've already got some neat options. The thing I want is more ways to use what we've got.
Along the lines of Augment Summoning, Tenacious Transmutation and Diviner's Delving, maybe we'll get a feat the requires Spell Focus (Evocation) that involves metamagic. It think that could be cool. ^^
Universalist isn't quite incantrix bad. At level eight, they do not get free quicken. They can't free quicken until level 14. Also it doesn't allow you cheat up to higher than you can cast. So they still have to play fair, they just get a discount.
I fear I explained me badly. I feel incantatrix too good to brokenness, and universalist PF wizard not so good. The latter slightly more powerful could be an answer for the OP. That was what I meant.
ah
Just thought I'd post this for those who haven't seen it. You find the full details here.
At 1st level, the incantatrix gives up a school of magic so as to focus more on the remaining schools. She must choose a school of magic other than abjuration or divination as a prohibited school. This prohibited school is in addition to any others already chosen due to school specialization. Thus, a specialized wizard taking this prestige class has three prohibited schools instead of two.
Cooperative Metamagic (Su)
At 2nd level, an incantatrix gains the ability to apply any metamagic feat she possesses (except Silent Spell, Still Spell, or Quicken Spell) to a spell being cast by a willing allied spellcaster. The caster need not prepare the spell in metamagic form or in a higher-level spell slot; the incantatrix simply modifies the spell during the casting. Using this ability is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity, just like casting a spell, though the incantatrix can use the Concentration skill with this ability as though she were casting defensively. The incantatrix must ready an action to use cooperative metamagic when her ally begins casting and must be adjacent to the caster. The incantatrix must make a Spellcraft check (DC 18 + [3 × modifi ed spell level]) to succeed. “Modified spell level” is the level of the spell slot that the spell would occupy if it were prepared with the metamagic feat applied. Any spell level increases from metamagic feats that the caster applied also count toward the modified spell level. For example, if an incantatrix applies the Maximize Spell feat to an ally’s chain lightning spell, the modified spell level is 9th (6th for the spell, +1 for the Maximize Spell feat), and the DC is 18 + (3 × 9) = 45. If she applies the same feat to an ally’s silent chain lightning spell, the modified spell level is 10th and the Spellcraft DC is 48. An incantatrix can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Int modifier.
Metamagic Effect (Su)
At 3rd level, an incantatrix can attempt to apply a metamagic feat she possesses to a persistent spell effect that is already in place. For example, she could use Extend Spell to extend the duration of a wall of force or Maximize Spell to maximize the damage dealt by a cloudkill. To use this ability, the incantatrix must be adjacent to or within the spell effect and make a successful Spellcraft check (DC 18 + [3 × modified spell level]. “Modified spell level” is the level of the spell slot that the spell would occupy if it were prepared with the metamagic feat applied. Spell slot increases for metamagic feats that were applied to affect the spell’s casting (such as Still Spell, Silent Spell, or Quicken Spell) do not count toward the modified spell level, but adjustments for metamagic that change the spell’s effect (such as Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, or Widen Spell) do count.
For example, applying the Extend Spell feat to a wall of fire gives it a modified spell level of 5th (4th for the spell +1 for the Extend Spell feat), so the DC would be 18 + (3 × 5) = 33. If the wall of fire had been cast with the Silent Spell feat applied, the DC is still 33, since that feat applies to the spell’s casting, not its effect. On the other hand, extending an empowered wall of fire would give it a modified spell level of 7th and a Spellcraft DC of 39. An incantatrix can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Int modifier. Using this ability is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su)
At 5th level, an incantatrix gains the ability to apply a metamagic feat she possesses to the effect of a spell trigger item (generally a wand). Using metamagic spell trigger expends a number of additional charges from the item equal to the number of effective spell levels the metamagic feat would add to a spell. For example, an incantatrix can use Quicken Spell to modify a spell cast from a wand by spending 5 charges (1 + 4 additional charges for the spell slot increase). Alternatively, she can apply Empower Spell to the effect by spending 3 charges, or trigger it silently by spending 2 charges. The Still Spell feat confers no benefit when applied to a spell trigger item.
An incantatrix cannot use this ability when using a spell trigger item that does not have charges, such as a strand of prayer beads.
Seize Concentration (Su)
At 6th level, an incantatrix gains the ability to wrest control of a spell that requires concentration (such as implosion, major image, or summon swarm) from another spellcaster within 30 feet. If the target spellcaster is willing, this transfer of concentration occurs automatically. Otherwise, the incantatrix and the target spellcaster make an opposed caster level check. A divine spellcaster receives a +2 bonus on this check. If the incantatrix wins, she gains control of the spell for as long as she maintains concentration or until the original spell duration expires. The spell functions as though the incantatrix were the caster (even if it is a spell she cannot cast), except that any variables determined when the spell was cast (including its caster level) remain a s determined by the original caster. The original spellcaster can be affected by his own spell, though he receives a +2 circumstance bonus on any saving throw allowed against it. If the incantatrix allows her concentration to lapse before the spell duration expires, the original caster may reassert control over his spell by making a successful caster level check (DC 15 + spell level). If he fails to do so, no one controls the spell.
Instant Metamagic (Su)
Once per day, a 7th-level or higher incantatrix can apply a single metamagic feat she possesses to a spell without preparing it that way beforehand (if she prepares spells) or increasing its casting time (if she does not prepare spells). Thus, a wizard’s prepared spell works as if she had prepared it with the metamagic feat, but it does not use a higher-level spell slot. A sorcerer or bard’s spell is cast without adjusting its casting time, but it works as if he had cast it with the metamagic feat. A 9th-level incantatrix can use this power twice per day.
Snatch Spell (Su)
At 8th level, an incantatrix can attempt to seize control over a persistent effect created by another spellcaster. The effect must be one that does not depend on concentration but still relies on or responds to the caster’s control (such as a summon monster spell or spiritual weapon, but not a wall of fire or acid fog). Furthermore, the effect (but not necessarily the spellcaster) must be within 30 feet of the incantatrix. The target spellcaster and the incantatrix make an opposed caster level check. A divine spellcaster receives a +2 bonus on this check. If the incantatrix wins, she gains control of the spell until its original duration expires. The spell functions as though the incantatrix had cast it, except that any variables determined when the spell was cast (including its caster level) remain as determined by the caster. The original caster can be affected by his own spell, though he receives a +2 circumstance bonus on any saving throw allowed against it. If the spell is dismissible and the incantatrix wishes to dismiss it, she must make a second successful opposed caster level check to do so. If she fails, the spell remains in effect and control reverts to the original caster.
Improved Metamagic (Su)
At 10th level, an incantatrix has mastered metamagic to such an extent that whenever she uses a metamagic feat, the required increase in spell level (if any) is reduced by one (minimum +1 spell level). For example, a wizard incantatrix could prepare a quickened fireball as a 6th-level spell instead of a 7th-level spell.
This benefit also applies to the incantatrix’s other class abilities. Thus, the DC for using her metamagic effect or cooperative metamagic ability is reduced appropriately for the metamagic feats involved, and she spends fewer charges when using metamagic spell trigger.
Once again, I'd like state: never again. Don't bring her back. ...but the abilities may be useful for the discussion of potential abilities or as an example of how not to do it. Huzzah. :P
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I use heighten spell quite a bit. Sometimes I can't find a good spell at a certain level, so I just "promote" one of my existing spells to fill in the gap, especially if they are control spells that relies heavily on their saves. Heighten web is a good one and so is heighten grease. I think I might also heighten spiked pit instead of getting acid pit (which destroys the loot)...I imagine you're a spontaneous caster? I can't do this as a wizard. D:
My character is actually a wizard and I use heightened versions of low level spells quite a bit. IMO, being able to grease the BBEG's weapon out of his hand is great at any level.
Maybe a feat or racial favored class option that allows a spellcaster to reduce the level of a metamagic feat by a limited number of times per day, say 1/2 times per caster level? So a max of 10 reduced levels at 20th level.
The universalist wizard gets 7 levels of 'free' metamagic over 12 levels, starting at EIGHT.
Ugh.
A specialist gets a free spell every level. That's (wait for it) FORTY-FIVE levels of free 'stuff'.
You get a free metamagic. I just memorize the damn spell in my higher free spell slot, tyvm. And if I want a spell from an opposition school, guess what? it just means I go down to having the SAME amount of spells as you do.
The advantage of the Universalist Wizard is flexibility, not firepower.
Besides, you miss the point - what I was getting at is that Paizo has already examined the "free metamagic" idea, and they have decided to limit it severely.
I strongly doubt that they are going to change their minds.
-Kle.
The universalist has no flexibility benefit over a specialist.
IF the specialist were DENIED opposition schools, you have a point.
However, they are only forced to pay double. ANd look, they have an extra spell slot at every level to do just that, IF THEY WANT TO. Otherwise, they are one spell ahead, at every single level!
IF you want universalists to have power from having access to all schools, then reward them for being universalists...don't give them an ability which is inferior to something every spec gets starting at level 1, and the Univ has to wait to 8 for...and which is subsumed and inferior to the spec ability going forwards.
===Aelryinth
Aelrynth is right IMO.
Moreover, point out a flaw means suggest a thing you think could be improved. Of course you can houserule it - but if a rule is good by start, is better, expecially thinking to newbye players.
If you're playing a specialist you're designing a character so he doesn't need one or two schools of magic. They become elective and less important.
Having a specialist need two spell slots of EVERY LEVEL HE CAN CAST set aside to deal with opposition spells is a waste of time to even consider. If he needs to learn a spell or two from an opposition school, he's perfectly capable of doing so, and the penalties are meaningless as he levels.
The fact you can't break the metacap with universalist spells is the true killer. That means the extra spell slot of the specialist is even more valuable. You spend the 4th level slot +extend to get an Extended spell. He spends his bonus 5th level spell slot...And he still has the 4th level slot you had to waste!
You spend fireball and juice an empower. He stuffs it in his bonus 5th level slot, and still has the third level slot to cast! In effect, using your metamagic is costing you TWO spells, and it costs a specialist ONE.
And don't get me started on mage hand, throwing stuff out there at a Mage's BAB so he can have the pleasure of missing. Well, maybe not if he uses alchemical stuff, but still.
=Aelryinth