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The question came up once before in for forum but no answer was given by the devs. So i wanted to post it again for hopefully some input from the developers and input from other DMs.
If you have a +5 shield and have the shield master feat when you attack a creature with DR does the shield overcome the DR as if it was a +5 weapon?
I personally think it is no. Since DR refers to the enhancement of the weapon and not the current enhancement of the attack.
Shield Master adds the shields enhancement modifier to the attack and damage rolls of the shield bash. If the shield was enchanted as a weapon say +1 flaming. The resulting attack would be a +5 flaming weapon, but only count as a +1 weapon for DR purposes.
Additional argument is if you have a +5 defending longsword and you put all the enhancement to defense will it overcome DR as a +0 or a +5 weapon? It overcomes DR like a +5 weapon because that is what it really is.
agree disagree?
If you have a +5 shield and have the shield master feat when you attack a creature with DR does the shield overcome the DR as if it was a +5 weapon?
I don't believe so; your reasoning appears sound to me. As you say, only the bonus to the attack roll is what benefits from the feat. It doesn't actually alter the shield's weapon enhancement.
Additional argument is if you have a +5 defending longsword and you put all the enhancement to defense will it overcome DR as a +0 or a +5 weapon? It overcomes DR like a +5 weapon because that is what it really is.
It's a +5 weapon, and would still be treated as such for purposes of overcoming DR.
<never mind this>
One of the devs recently said that the enhancement bonus from a magical shield aren't added to your attack by Shield Master; only the base shield bonus is.
So, you don't get the +5 attack, and you also don't get to overcome DR.
That was before they errata'd the feat I believe.
Ah, yes. Never mind my post above, then.
Going by the errata, I'd say Shield Master actually does let you overcome DR. Since you apply the shield's enhancement bonus as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus, it's treated just as if it was a +5 weapon.
Ah, yes. Never mind my post above, then.
Going by the errata, I'd say Shield Master actually does let you overcome DR. Since you apply the shield's enhancement bonus as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus, it's treated just as if it was a +5 weapon.
That's my interpretation as well.
I have a fighter (ab)using this in my Kingmaker campaign. He easily hits anything, does close to 200 damage per round, and everything not optimized requires a 20 to hit him, be it random encounters or bosses.
But that aside, my MAIN issue is that a single feat saves him 50,000gp in weapon enchantments in ADDITION to giving him the shield's inherent bonus and his shield focus bonus to hit and damage, which alone is more than awesome enough as it stands, being the equivalent of four weapon focus feats and two weapon specialization feats. I would be more prone to accept a feat series that allowed you to use your off hand WEAPON enhancement to AC, saving him potentially 25,000.
Like:
[Greater Two Weapon Defense]
Requirement: Two Weapon Defense, BAB+9
Benefits: You gain the enhancement bonus of your off-hand weapon on AC as a shield bonus. This stacks with Two Weapon Defense.
Then on top of that, he gets to ignore DR, which normally is the main balancer for a 2wpn fighter. I have contemplated making a house-rule to nerf this, or at least present an equal opportunity for other 2wpn fighters using weapons, as they are not even playable compared to a sword&board type as it stands IMO.
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But that aside, my MAIN issue is that a single feat saves him 50,000gp in weapon enchantments [snip]
mind you, you need about 5 feats to get there, BAB 11... etc. it's an ok equalizer, perhaps even a bit of a weak equalizer, for sword and board fighters, 'cause at that level two-handed weapon builds are so much superior in terms of damage it's not funny...
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Additional argument is if you have a +5 defending longsword and you put all the enhancement to defense will it overcome DR as a +0 or a +5 weapon? It overcomes DR like a +5 weapon because that is what it really is.
agree disagree?
I'm going to have to disagree. After all...
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters.
If you shift all the bonus to defense it no longer has a +1 to attack and damage. It's the enhancement bonus that overcomes DR not the weapon itself.
But that aside, my MAIN issue is that a single feat saves him 50,000gp in weapon enchantments [snip]mind you, you need about 5 feats to get there, BAB 11... etc. it's an ok equalizer, perhaps even a bit of a weak equalizer, for sword and board fighters, 'cause at that level two-handed weapon builds are so much superior in terms of damage it's not funny...
The main point of it is to give a true "front line" type fighter somewhat competitive damage. In spite of the fact that two handed fighters have more DPR then a sword and board, they don't hold the front nearly as well and are better off as strikers as opposed to tanks.
But that aside, my MAIN issue is that a single feat saves him 50,000gp in weapon enchantments [snip]mind you, you need about 5 feats to get there, BAB 11... etc. it's an ok equalizer, perhaps even a bit of a weak equalizer, for sword and board fighters, 'cause at that level two-handed weapon builds are so much superior in terms of damage it's not funny...
4: - Two Weapon Fighting, which is a basic must-have for all dual-wielders
- Improved Shield Bash: Better than Two Weapon Defense- Shield Slam: Grants great battlefield control and is the most reliable freebie trip feat in the game.
- Shield Master: Removing the penalty is pretty sweet (+4 to hit) alone. Getting a free 50k enchantment is amazing. You get better damage output doing two weapon fighting than any other two weapon build using actual weapons, for 75% of the GP cost, and as an added bonus, you get +7 AC.
And while I agree a 2h fighter does more damage alone, this guy has a party that actually cares to buff to take into consideration, and thus hits on all his 7 attacks, all the time. The only failing he has is when he cannot full attack, which is exceedingly rare, as he often is enlarged, and have lunge and take a five-foot step, meaning he can full attack anything in a 20' radius for massive damage. I have seen and played 2h martial characters, and even my smiting and buffed paladin could not keep up to his amazing output at similar levels.
Any Devs want to offer their input on this?
It overcoming DR just goes way beyond good right smack in the middle of cheesy and pushing broken.
Let's all FAQ it so we can get some dev input into this subject. I have seen many threads that deal with Shield Master and we can use some developer input.
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It overcoming DR just goes way beyond good right smack in the middle of cheesy and pushing broken.
Bwahahaha!
*wipes tear from eye*
Oh..wee...that was a good one OgeXam. A good one indeed.
Seriously though, all the feat does is save you a bit of gold from enchanting your shield as a weapon. If they rule that it does bypass DR as a magic weapon, it is hardly broken.
It overcoming DR just goes way beyond good right smack in the middle of cheesy and pushing broken.Bwahahaha!
*wipes tear from eye*
Oh..wee...that was a good one OgeXam. A good one indeed.
Seriously though, all the feat does is save you a bit of gold from enchanting your shield as a weapon. If they rule that it does bypass DR as a magic weapon, it is hardly broken.
And removes the penalty to hit for dual-wielding. Which alone is a decent feat. It doesn't just save you money, it allows you to get a far superior weapon: Get a +5 shield of bashing, (36k) and stick a +1 on the offense, then make it holy, bane, elemental, etc etc.
A +5 Holy longsword is 98k. A +5 Bashing, Holy shield is 54k. Damage-wise they do the same. But one gives you +7 AC and is 44k cheaper.
And on higher levels, you can stack the shield up to effectively become a +14 weapon with various enchantments. Which is pretty amazing. All thanks to one feat. What other build has a feat that can even compete in the same game, much less same weight-class?
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And on higher levels, you can stack the shield up to effectively become a +14 weapon with various enchantments. Which is pretty amazing. All thanks to one feat. What other build has a feat that can even compete in the same game, much less same weight-class?
Actually, it's FOUR feats (minimum), a base attack bonus of 11, AND a Dex score of at least 15.
You can't ignore the prerequisites and say "it's one feat." That's a load of croc. Is what you describe really so broken past 10th-level? I certainly don't think so.
And on higher levels, you can stack the shield up to effectively become a +14 weapon with various enchantments. Which is pretty amazing. All thanks to one feat. What other build has a feat that can even compete in the same game, much less same weight-class?Actually, it's FOUR feats (minimum), a base attack bonus of 11, AND a Dex score of at least 15.
You can't ignore the prerequisites and say "it's one feat." That's a load of croc. Is what you describe really so broken past 10th-level? I certainly don't think so.
None of the required feats are bad, so I stand by my argument. There is no other feat that does this for any other build. What does 2h fighters, 2wpn fighters, archers and so forth have that can even begin to compare down their lines?
When no other feat compares in terms of power, is it not the definition of broken? What feat does a regular 2wpn fighter get down his line that sets him apart from the Sword&Board? What feat does the 2h fighter get to suddenly boost his AC by 7?
Consider this: What if there was a feat to build on Shield of Swings that removed the penalty and gave the weapon's enhancement modifier to AC? That is about the same in terms of power.
Shields also have a bad crit range, so when combined with Shielded Fighter cheese, Shield Master isn't better than other builds.
It works like the enhancement bonus of a weapon. Unlike Magic Weapon it doesn't say that it doesn't penetrate any DR other than magic. So it would be able to.
+1
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And on higher levels, you can stack the shield up to effectively become a +14 weapon with various enchantments. Which is pretty amazing. All thanks to one feat. What other build has a feat that can even compete in the same game, much less same weight-class?Actually, it's FOUR feats (minimum), a base attack bonus of 11, AND a Dex score of at least 15.
You can't ignore the prerequisites and say "it's one feat." That's a load of croc. Is what you describe really so broken past 10th-level? I certainly don't think so.
None of the required feats are bad, so I stand by my argument. There is no other feat that does this for any other build. What does 2h fighters, 2wpn fighters, archers and so forth have that can even begin to compare down their lines?
When no other feat compares in terms of power, is it not the definition of broken? What feat does a regular 2wpn fighter get down his line that sets him apart from the Sword&Board? What feat does the 2h fighter get to suddenly boost his AC by 7?
And I think that is where we differ. You are comparing one feat to another. I am comparing shield fighters against other kinds of fighters.
A dedicated shield fighter with this feat comes close in power to an archer fighter or a THW Fighter (still falling noticeably short, however). Without such a powerful feat, however, he wouldn't even come close to other fighters.
Saying it is more powerful than other feats doesn't mean much because by the time you can take it, you are a dedicated shield fighter. Without it, such builds would be garbage by comparison.
It's powerful, maybe even essential for a good shield fighter, but it's not broken in the large scheme of things.
Think about it, if the designers ruled that it helped beat DR, would your game really come to a screeching halt before plummeting into a ravine of ruin? I don't think so. Your game would go on as it did before, and everyone would likely continue to enjoy themselves, with or without a new house rule.
It's not like everyone is going to kill of their current characters and all build shield fighters. Even if they did, they'd only shoot themselves in their collective feet since their are more powerful/versatile builds out there.
If the Devs come in and say "yep it overcomes DR" my response would be along the lines of "Great, thanks for the rules clarification."
I personally feel that it doesn't, but if it does it won't cause me any grief. I just want to know by rules.
It's a lot of feats. basically, if you go shield fighter, you have to wait a lot to take a bit of another path. I think this balances things.
Get a +5 shield of bashing, (36k) and stick a +1 on the offense, then make it holy, bane, elemental, etc etc.
Mmmh, sorry but I can't see Holy, Bane or Elemental in the Shield Special Abilities table... So I think you can't enchant you shield with those things... ;)
Get a +5 shield of bashing, (36k) and stick a +1 on the offense, then make it holy, bane, elemental, etc etc.Mmmh, sorry but I can't see Holy, Bane or Elemental in the Shield Special Abilities table... So I think you can't enchant you shield with those things... ;)
You can enchangt a shield as both a shield and a weapon.
The shield enchanted to +5 gives you +5 to AC +5 to hit and +5 to damage. Then you do it as a weapon +1 Holy Flaming Bane would give you nothing to hit since the shields +5 is greater but you gain the extra damage from the holy fire and bane(which at times will give you an extra +2 to hit so +7 to hit and damage!)
You get a +9 weapon (+5 from shield, +2 from holy, +1 flaming, +1 bane) for 75k instead of 162k. Which is 64% discount.
That is not the issue. That in itself is worth the feats required to get there. Adding bypassing DR makes it an even better weapon.
the enhancements of the shield as a weapon and the shield as an armor are different and separate.
the feat makes the armor enhancements as weapons, nothing else.
It's a lot of feats. basically, if you go shield fighter, you have to wait a lot to take a bit of another path. I think this balances things.
fighters get a ton of feats, and we are only talking about 3 feats, each that are good feats.
1. Improved Shield Bash: get to keep shield AC
2. Shield Slam: each hit with shield is a free bull rush. If they creature does not have room to move back they are knocked prone!
3. Shield Master: No more two weapon fighting penalty!!! This is like weapon focus and greater weapon focus in one feat! and you can still take weapon focus and greater weapon focus. But wait there's more you also get your shields enhancement modifier to hit. It is like having a bard always running around singing for you.
The idea of a lot of feats does not really hold water, it is 3 feats. An 11th level fighter has 12 feats (13 if he is human). 3 feats is nothing for him.
The feats that it builds off are good feats by themselves, not like school focus conjuration to be able to get augment summoning. (school focus conjuration helps only a handful of spells since conjuration normally do not allow saves)
the enhancements of the shield as a weapon and the shield as an armor are different and separate.
the feat makes the armor enhancements as weapons, nothing else.
Exactly.
Let's look at an 'end game' weapon for higher level guys.
A fighter gets a +10 equivalent weapon for 200k. In our case we will say it is a +5 Longsword of Speed, Holy. His offhand weapon is a moot point since we can have the same other weapon on the shield master.
This gives our fighter +5 to hit and damage +2d6 versus evil, and one extra attack per round when doing a full attack action.
For the same 198k our shield master gets the following enchanted shield
Shield Enchant: +5 Heavy Metal Shield of Arrow Deflection and Fortification (moderate) 100k
Weapon Enchant: +1 Heavy Metal Shield of Speed, Holy, Flaming 98k
This gives him +5 to hit and damage +2d6 versus evil, one extra attack per roudn when doing a full attack action, AND +2 to hit (no more two weapon fighting penalty), +1d6 fire, +7 AC (shield), Ignore fire range attack that hits every round, 50% change to ignore critical or sneak attack. Not to mention I can still enchant the weapon and +3)
All for those 3 feats you stand to gain A LOT already. Add ability to overcome DR and it is a no brainer that it is best to dual wield with a shield over another weapon.
Without the overcoming the DR the value of having the +5 weapon balances out some of the added benefits of shield master.
All for those 3 feats you stand to gain A LOT already. Add ability to overcome DR and it is a no brainer that it is best to dual wield with a shield over another weapon.
It's only a no-brainer once you have the Shield Master feat. Until you have that feat (which you can't get until level 11) you are either fighting with a shield that isn't weapon-enhanced (low to-hit and damage), fighting with a shield that is weapon-enhanced (eliminating the "you save cash" argument), or not fighting with a shield (and having taken a number of shield-specific feats that you don't use).
In light of that, I don't feel that it's too much to let it overcome DR.
I always houseruled it that theres two types weapon enhancements and armor enhancements so if you wanted your shield to have the +5 to attack youd have to enchant it for offense as well as defense. (or maybe just offense if you don't mind losein the ac) the other option would be to get a shield spike and enchant that thing
I always houseruled it that theres two types weapon enhancements and armor enhancements so if you wanted your shield to have the +5 to attack youd have to enchant it for offense as well as defense. (or maybe just offense if you don't mind losein the ac) the other option would be to get a shield spike and enchant that thing
That's not a houserule; that is the actual rule.
The feat discussed here (Shield Master) allows you to apply the shield enhancement also to attacks with the shield, thus eliminating the need for a separate weapon enhancement.
cool well it was a house rule when we started it... 1st man 1st but it does make since
OgeXam, fighters get a lot of feats.. but is essentially all they get. 3 feats is A LOT for them, and adds to the already feat intensive TWF build.
For the rest, see Are.
I do not think the argument of 'it takes 3 feats' or 'it does not happen till 11th level so at lower levels it is not good' does not hold water.
Yes at lower levels you pay for the power you will get a higher levels, it is like a mystic thuerge. They are sucking rocks for water up till about 8th or 9th level, then they start becoming very powerful. You have to pay your dues.
Same with a shield master, at lower levels they pay their dues for awesomeness later on.
Since it is an ability you only get at 11th level, then you have to look at its impact from 11th - 20th level only and ignore lower levels. You can play in a campaign where you start at 11th level, you are not always starting at 1st and working your way up.
Rethink your arguments when game play starts at 11th level and think about building a character from that point and analyize the benefits of shield master and compare to another fighter type. Then you may see my point that it needs a balancing feature. Aka does not overcome DR.
I started a game at level 12 with a fighter choosing for this combo. he had to say goobye to several other combos he had, because of the amounts of feat.
I actually say this is balanced because of my experience :)
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The feats do not change the inherent nature of a shield. Shields are not elligible for weapon enchants, plain and simple.Get a +5 shield of bashing, (36k) and stick a +1 on the offense, then make it holy, bane, elemental, etc etc.Mmmh, sorry but I can't see Holy, Bane or Elemental in the Shield Special Abilities table... So I think you can't enchant you shield with those things... ;)You can enchangt a shield as both a shield and a weapon.
Shield spikes, on the other hand, are elligible.
A +5 shield with +1 holy shield spikes would count as a +5 holy shield with Shield Master.
The feats do not change the inherent nature of a shield. Shields are not elligible for weapon enchants, plain and simple.
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
Therefore you can enchant a shield as a weapon as well.
Or enchant a shield spike (better route)
If you enchant just the shield you can only go to +10 with combined shield enhancements and weapon enhancements.
A shield cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10.
If you have a shield with shield spikes you can enchange the shield to +10 with armor enhancements, and the shield spikes to +10 with weapon enhancements.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
Sorry I was blind, have'nt looked at the right place, seems OgeXam is right... ;)
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I do not think the argument of 'it takes 3 feats' or 'it does not happen till 11th level so at lower levels it is not good' does not hold water.
Rethink your arguments when game play starts at 11th level and think about building a character from that point and analyize the benefits of shield master and compare to another fighter type. Then you may see my point that it needs a balancing feature. Aka does not overcome DR.
Well in comparison to another Fighter:
vs TWF: the total feat tax is actually 6-8. The 3 mentioned above as well as weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, and improved critical are all feats that a "normal" TWF only has to take once to benefit both weapons (although most fighters won't take all of these)vs Two-Handed: the total feat tax is actually 6-8+ (depending on how you count). A shield basher has to take TWF, Imp TWF, and greater TWF (we're talking late game here) just to get attacks in the first place. Double Slice and Two-Weapon rend are nice to have as well. And the crit/focus/specialization mentioned above still applies.
The huge feat tax is the balancing feature. 3 feats alone are definitely worth at least 25,000 gold to a level 11 fighter, more to a level 20 fighter. 6 or more puts it WAY into the balanced column.
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Pathfinder Core Rulebook pg. 152 under Shield Bash Attack(light or heavy). blah blah blah... Used this way (bash) a (light/heavy) shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls treat as a (light/one-handed) weapon. ...Blah blah blah... An enhancement bonus on a shield does not increase effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the the shield can be made into a magic weapon in it's own right.
Same applies to shield spikes.
So yeah, there you go. Big slab of magic metal to the face does count as a weapon. Yay~
Though the 3 feats that are required to get shield master are not empty feats.
People make it sound like the first two are a waste.
Let's look at just shield master first.
You get to ignore the two weapon fighting penatly. So in essence you are getting a +2 or +4 to hit depending on the size of the shield. We will average at +3. That is Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, and heirloom weapon trait all in one feat! yes only for attack with that specific weapon but that is one feat for most of two feats and a trait.
Now add the fact that you get to add the shield enhancement modifiers to your attack and damage rolls! So more to hit and some to damage like the feats weapon specialization and greater weapon spec!
Shield Master by itself has the effects of multiple other feats all in one. Should it also add overcomes DR?
Not to mention you can still have those other feats for even more bonuses.
Then to get Shield master you had to take:
Improved Shield Bash. You get to keep your shields AC while attacking. Awesome feat.
Shield Slam. Everytime you hit someone ALSO compare your attack roll vs there CMD if it beats it you can bull rush them for free! It does not provoke an AoO (almost like having Improved Bull Rush to boot). If the creature cannot be moved back due to a wall or something they are knocked prone with NO save.
The investment one must make to get shield master are not wasted. They give you AC and free bull rushes with every attack. Therefore I feel the argument of 'it takes 3 feats to do it' is not a valid argument for Shield Master needing a little more (aka overcome DR) to make it a good feat.
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Though the 3 feats that are required to get shield master are not empty feats.
People make it sound like the first two are a waste.
...
Shield Master by itself has the effects of multiple other feats all in one. Should it also add overcomes DR?
Not to mention you can still have those other feats for even more bonuses.
Yes, but you still have to get those other feats.
Improved Shield Bash. You get to keep your shields AC while attacking. Awesome feat.
I absolutely agree, Improved Shield Bash is 6 times better than two-weapon defense.
Shield Slam. Everytime you hit someone ALSO compare your attack roll vs there CMD if it beats it you can bull rush them for free!
This is the one feat most highly situational. Unless you manage to back them up to a wall, you're not going to want to use this 90% of the time. (You can move with them, but your buddies who would also like to take a full-attack action can't.)
The investment one must make to get shield master are not wasted. They give you AC and free bull rushes with every attack. Therefore I feel the argument of 'it takes 3 feats to do it' is not a valid argument for Shield Master needing a little more (aka overcome DR) to make it a good feat.
What you're giving up (vs traditional TWF) is the ability to apply focus/specialization/imp critical to both weapons for one feat. Essentially you are lowering your damage per feat on your main-hand weapon and shifting it to your off-hand. Compare this with TWF where you give up the huge damage per attack of a two-handed weapon in favor of lots of attacks. It's simply a different playstyle, a way to have multiple options for fighter types.
I think I've got my spreadsheet fully working now. Pick a level OgeXam, and I'll do a damage comparison of Shield Master vs traditional TWF (both with and without DR).
Saying a fighter 'only has to give up three feats' for this is like saying "My wizard only had to give up all his level 3 and 4 spell slots for this cool ability!"
Belafon has this exactly correct. Unless you are using your shield as your primary weapon, you are NOT getting the benefit of your spec tree/primiary weapon with it, another SUBSTANTIAL investment of feats (like, all your 1st and 5th level spell slots). You also have to make the choice of the shield being your #1 for weapon training, or number 2.
Contrast with someone using a Shortsword TWF build. They get to dovetail all their attacks and feats together, along with weapon training. Combine with the later crit feats and a higher crit weapon, and Shortswords look really good on offense.
Without Shield Master, TWF with a shield just sucks and is waaay too expensive. Granted, you can get your AC into the stratosphere (Uber Shield, +5 Shield of Bashing with +5 Defender spikes = +13 on Defense!). With it, it's a barely viable combat form for the fighter because of the huge investment you have to make in the TWF tree...including feats.
==Aelryinth
I think I've got my spreadsheet fully working now. Pick a level OgeXam, and I'll do a damage comparison of Shield Master vs traditional TWF (both with and without DR).
Ooh, even if he doesn't take you up on the offer, I sure will.
Please demonstrate a comparison between 5th-level fighters, 10th-level fighters, and a 15th-level fighters.
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I may be mistaken but by reading the FAQ and looking at the shield portion of enchanting armor it seems to me that
"Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses..."
- so a +5 shield doesn't give +5 ac +5 hit +5 damage
"A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and it's enhancement to AC."
- so it can be enchanted as a weapon however this enhancement doesn't add to AC
From the FAQ "Q: Does the magical shield bonus apply to Shield Mastery?
A: (Jason Bulmahn) I am going to try and clarify this in a future errata. The intent here was to add the shields base bonus as an enhancement bonus (that is, +1 for light shields, +2 for heavy). Shield Focus does NOT increase the value. [Source]
Q: Does Shield Mastery remove the penalties for all attacks if you are using a non-shield weapon and a shield and two-weapon fighting? Or does it only remove the penalties for the shield attack?
A: Shield Mastery only removes the penalty for Two Weapon Fighting on the Shield Bash itself, it does not remove it for a non-Shield weapon in your other hand. [Source]"
- so shield mastery only gives a +1 or a +2 increased enhancement bonus to damage... You do not receive an enhancement bonus to attack and damage for having an enhancement bonus to AC.
None of this seems over powered and I'm not sure if your fighter is using it correctly but you should try to help him and see if he is.
PS: fighters are awesome =)
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I may be mistaken but by reading the FAQ and looking at the shield portion of enchanting armor it seems to me that
"Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses..."
- so a +5 shield doesn't give +5 ac +5 hit +5 damageA: (Jason Bulmahn) I am going to try and clarify this in a future errata. The intent here was to add the shields base bonus as an enhancement bonus (that is, +1 for light shields, +2 for heavy). Shield Focus does NOT increase the value. [Source]
The issue here is that the feat Shield Mastery says:
You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus.
Your summary above is correct...if you don't have the Shield Master Feat. If you do, then your shield enhancement bonus IS added to attack and damage rolls as a weapon enhancement bonus.
From the Q&A you quote, it appears that Jason was thinking about making the base bonus the weapon enhancement bonus, instead of using the shield enhancement bonus.
I found the original post by Jason that you quote
Note the date, August 2009. Several official errata have come out since then. If the decision was made to change it, there have been several opportunities.
Without an official errata, I don't know that we'll ever all agree. This is one of those sticky situations caused by the fact that Pathfinder is an evolving game and uses deliberately flexible language. Sometimes things evolve that we don't all parse identically. "Enhancement bonus" is definitely one of those phrases. Sure Paizo could publish all possible allowable combinations of enhancements along with costs and effects... but then you'd have a 900 page book of tables that you had to rebuy every time a new ability was released.
Please demonstrate a comparison between 5th-level fighters, 10th-level fighters, and a 15th-level fighters.
I'll try to have it up by tomorrow. I'm probably going to skip the 5th-level if I run out of time since 10 vs 15 would be pre-Shield Master vs post-Shield Master. I can tell you already that the level 10 shield fighter is going to absolutely suck in comparison, I ran into that doing an earlier comparison (with assumptions I actually didn't believe in). OgeXam, you've got a few hours to chime in if there's any particular feats/build you'd like to see, otherwise I'm going to try for max damage only.
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a person can use the feat however they wish I just wanted to clarify that it is ment to only add a +2 or a +1 depending on the shield (heavy or light, respectively).
There is a difference between using a feat and thinking it's a little too powerful and using a feat incorrectly if it has been corrected.
I'm glad my clarification was correct and i hope they feel guilty if you're using this feet incorrectly and haven't told their GM because despite what they think... it's cheating.
Edit: changed pronouns to sound less like an insult.
From the Q&A you quote, it appears that Jason was thinking about making the base bonus the weapon enhancement bonus, instead of using the shield enhancement bonus.
I found the original post by Jason that you quote
Note the date, August 2009. Several official errata have come out since then. If the decision was made to change it, there have been several opportunities.
The feat has actually received official errata. The original version said "shield's shield bonus", while the current version says "shield's enhancement bonus".
Since it would make no sense to make that particular change if Paizo actually wanted it to only add the base shield bonus, I take it to mean that they discussed this, and ended up wanting to have magical enhancements work with the feat after all.
Also, I'm pretty sure I remember one of the other threads discussing this feat features a Dev comment (made after the quoted comment) that says you get the magical enhancement bonus added with this feat.
Well that is nice to see that back in 2009 Jason was looking at the feat and saying it was not worded correctly.
Sad that nothing more has been heard.
JASON!!!!!! (tries to holler loud enough to be heard)
Can you please give us your input on this. Since you are looking at an errata you may want to include something about DR.
...I think I've got my spreadsheet fully working now. Pick a level OgeXam, and I'll do a damage comparison of Shield Master vs traditional TWF (both with and without DR).
Sure run the numbers at 11th, 15th and 20th. NO point in less then 11th since shield master cannot be taken till 11th.
Though you cannot think of just DPR the analysis must include difference in AC. Because AC helps you stay alive from round to round to be able to output that damage.
If you can dish out 400 points of damage with a full attack action but your AC is low you won't survive very long to dish out that damage.
While if you can dish out 300 points of damage witha full attack and your AC is very high you can survive longer and deal more damage in the long run.
While a lot of talk is about the pure DPR. I think a valid analysis would include of how many rounds the fighter will survive before going down needs to be taken into account.
It is not all about damage output but survivablility as well.
A monk has a lot lower DPR but can stay in a fight a lot longer then a two handed weapon weilding barbarian.