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Mark or Hyram
What is the official rulling on this? It starts at 14th?
Do we get to add a level for completeing the Maze of the Open Road series? Based on the Xp normally granted we would be 13.2 after the series
2XP for the two rounder the 1 xp for each of the next 3 mods in the series you could grant a bonus XP for the completion of the series to round out to 14th level
I ask because the NYC group only has the last mod left to play and this mod would be the next availible play opportunity for these characters
Thanks
Rich
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Once your PC hits level 12, s/he is no longer permitted for "normal" play scenarios. It can, however, participate in one "retirement" series designed specifically (and only) for level 12 PC's.
Once that series is completed, the PC is officially retired and can only be used in special mods/scenarios. Iron Medusa is the first of these special events.
Once you reach level 12, you no longer gain XP, even if you play in the level 12 series or Iron Medusa. You do, however, continue to gain treasure, boons, and PA.
For Iron Medusa, your "retired" PC would play at 12th level, without modifications. It's only if you want to play a customized PC, that you level it up to 14. The chronicle you receive can be applied to another one of your PC's with the appropriate level of reward for it's "real" current level.
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Once your PC hits level 12, s/he is no longer permitted for "normal" play scenarios. It can, however, participate in one "retirement" series designed specifically (and only) for level 12 PC's.
Once that series is completed, the PC is officially retired and can only be used in special mods/scenarios. Iron Medusa is the first of these special events.
Once you reach level 12, you no longer gain XP, even if you play in the level 12 series or Iron Medusa. You do, however, continue to gain treasure, boons, and PA.
For Iron Medusa, your "retired" PC would play at 12th level, without modifications. It's only if you want to play a customized PC, that you level it up to 14. The chronicle you receive can be applied to another one of your PC's with the appropriate level of reward for it's "real" current level.
Thanks
I understand the rule
I am asking Mark and Hyrum to reconsider it given that a 12 level PC at a Mod designed for 14th level PC's could be considered a suicide mission. I also do not see the harm in granting XP retroactively for PC's who have completed the High Level Tier which our group in NYC will be doing shortly.
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a 12 level PC at a Mod designed for 14th level PC's could be considered a suicide mission
I disagree. If you take a look at other mods like Godsmouth Heresy, you'll see that there are a number of challenging encounters with CR/ECL well above the APL.
I also do not see the harm in granting XP retroactively for PC's who have completed the High Level Tier which our group in NYC will be doing shortly.
It's not an issue of harm. It's just that level 12 has been declared the level cap for PFS. Just because there is a 14th level mod approved for PFS play (and presumably more in the future), does not mean we need to change that rule.
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I think what San-Chez is asking about seems very reasonable.
If a pathfinder character gains 1 level for every 3 xp then, once a PC hits level 12, then he “retires” and goes into the “retirment arc”, and does the Maze of the open road series. Logically ( yes I used that word) over the next three adventures, the characters would gain 1 xp, so when the PCs are ready to start “Tomb of the Iron Medusae” they are one x into 14th level, well that seems like a simple “no- brainer” solution.
Why do all of these legalistic gymnastics, when there is a simple and easy to understand solution?
I think that what San Chez is asking about seems very reasonable, and I would not understand how it would upset anyone’s apple cart or upset any kind of game balance.
I do think it is neat that the author of the Mud sorcerer’s tomb has written another adventure for us. I loved the Mud sorceer’s tomb, and I cant wait to see what he has in store for us.
I do think the gang at PFS have been coming up with good ideas and solutions ie the addition of the modules for people to play, and the current replay and 1 player credit, with 1 gm credit per module.
Well just my two cents.
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IMHO, the only reason the level cap is an issue is because Iron Medusa just happens to be a level 14 mod. If it were, say a level 6, we wouldn't be talking about this.
I understand the concept of what you are saying, I just disagree with it. Having all the retired PC's at level 12 will make it easy for the leadership to develop special events for them in the future. If the PC's were all over the place by level, then you would need to tier the special events. Thus eating away at word count and possible diluting the encounters.
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IMHO, the only reason the level cap is an issue is because Iron Medusa just happens to be a level 14 mod. If it were, say a level 6, we wouldn't be talking about this.
I understand the concept of what you are saying, I just disagree with it. Having all the retired PC's at level 12 will make it easy for the leadership to develop special events for them in the future. If the PC's were all over the place by level, then you would need to tier the special events. Thus eating away at word count and possible diluting the encounters.
+1
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I've just GMed the Cult of the Ebon Destroyer last weekend for a group of four and I understand where the question comes from.
I also do understand why Hyrym, Mark won't like to open up the can of worms that XP after level 12 represents.
As a GM who hasn't seen the module my advice would be: Check with the GM. It is likely that he might advice not to play it with a group of 4 retired level 12. If you mix in some level 14 or have >4 players, then maybe it looks a lot different. This is speculation on my side. But I remember all the discussions of people saying - they don't get much challenged.
So lets look at the good bits this offers. You can play again with your retired character. And you can mix him/her with players who don't have such a high level character yet.
I personally never looked at the modules in the past. But right now I regard them as a great way to get a few gamers to come down from elsewhere in the country to our place. Stay over for a night and have a lot of fun.
This way I managed to spend three great weekends with fellow gamers. One playing elsewhere, 2 gming at my place and inviting people.
Thod
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I've just GMed the Cult of the Ebon Destroyer last weekend for a group of four...How long did it take? Did you run every encounter (like the ones "one the way"). How experienced were the players? How much role playing occured? Thanks!
Thanks for the reminder that a report for the GM section is overdue. I aim for more details there.
Timing: Start Saturday 18:00 until well past Midnight. Start again Sunday 10:30 until 20:00. There have been times in-between to eat as well as a BBQ (first of the season) on Sunday.
So all in all it was 12-14 hours.
We did have heavy role-play in the beginning. We didn't skip any encounters on the way. I did not roll for additional encounters (random encounters) on the way. I didn't add faction mission this time around. But we started at the Lodge described in Kingdom of the Impossible to give it a link into PFS.
I did take the time to build up scenarios using props (Dwarvenforge, some outdoor terrain).
We skipped one of the end fights.
I would describe the players as 1 power gamer, 1 experienced gamer and 2 gamers playing a long time but with limited / none experience in high level. These two played their real characters - an 8th level dwarven fighter and a 6th level (upgraded by two levels) Sorcerer.
More information if I get around to write a game report. To better put it in perspective what worked / what didn't I need to add spoiler material and therefore will write that but for the GM section.
Thod
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Having all the retired PC's at level 12 will make it easy for the leadership to develop special events for them in the future. If the PC's were all over the place by level, then you would need to tier the special events. Thus eating away at word count and possible diluting the encounters.
Perhaps, Bob.
But let's place two characters. Your character is 12th Level, fresh from earning XP from 11th Level. My character is 12th-Level, and then took a "victory lap" around 4 scenarios, collecting treasure all the while, and then played through Iron Medusa and took home another 26,668 gp. (In addition, spent 4 scenarios and a module learning the ins-and-outs of his capabilities.)
If Hyrum and Mark want to build an adventure for 12th-level PCs, they're already disparate.
I know, I know; there's no need to make it worse, if we ever want those two characters to play together as alleged equals.
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Really, I don't see why San-Chez can't build a 14th-level character, a simple extention of his retired 12th-level PFS PC, run that character through the adventure, and give the XP / FP / loot to some other PC. The only thing he's prevented from doing is giving the treasure to the 12th-level retired character, who probably won't see the light of a PFS OP gaming table again anyways.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Any and all material for post-retirement PCs will be very difficult by design. Whether this means you're running a 12th level PC with above-level wealth through a 14th-level dungeon, or playing the same PC through a special Death Challenge event with even higher CRs, all post-retirement play will be skewed toward the difficult.
If you're concerned about your retired PC dying, we'll almost always offer alternatives to still play the adventure for credit. In this case, simply make up a new 14th-level PC (or even a 14th-level version of your retired PC). You just can't apply the Chronicle at the Module's conclusion to that retired PC.
But let's place two characters. Your character is 12th Level, fresh from earning XP from 11th Level. My character is 12th-Level, and then took a "victory lap" around 4 scenarios, collecting treasure all the while, and then played through Iron Medusa and took home another 26,668 gp. (In addition, spent 4 scenarios and a module learning the ins-and-outs of his capabilities.)If Hyrum and Mark want to build an adventure for 12th-level PCs, they're already disparate.
I know, I know; there's no need to make it worse, if we ever want those two characters to play together as alleged equals.
Chris, I think you missed this from the chronicle info pdf:
A player may use an existing Pathfinder Society character
of 12th level who has completed a full, four-part Tier 12
retirement arc.
So, no, you cannot have your example of the two different 12th level characters go through this module as you must play the retirement arc before playing this one. And that is probably the way it will stay, so that a "fresh" 12th level will not be able to play with an "experienced" 12th level to begin with.
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Any and all material for post-retirement PCs will be very difficult by design. Whether this means you're running a 12th level PC with above-level wealth through a 14th-level dungeon, or playing the same PC through a special Death Challenge event with even higher CRs, all post-retirement play will be skewed toward the difficult.
If you're concerned about your retired PC dying, we'll almost always offer alternatives to still play the adventure for credit. In this case, simply make up a new 14th-level PC (or even a 14th-level version of your retired PC). You just can't apply the Chronicle at the Module's conclusion to that retired PC.
Mark
Let's just agree to disagree then and let the issue drop. I still see no reason why the powers in charge will not allow the leveling in this case but since they are the powers in charge I will abide by the ruling.
I just needed confirmation from the top
Thanks
Rich
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I've just GMed the Cult of the Ebon Destroyer last weekend for a group of four...How long did it take? Did you run every encounter (like the ones "one the way"). How experienced were the players? How much role playing occured? Thanks!
Just posted my GM report. A lot longer as I anticipated. I hope it will help other GMs. I was looking for PFS advice but couldn't find any in the GM section ahead of running it.
I'm not sure I will do the new module soon. But who knows what I say in three month time.
Thod
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Chris, I think you missed this from the chronicle info pdf:
"A player may use an existing Pathfinder Society character
of 12th level who has completed a full, four-part Tier 12
retirement arc."
So, no, you cannot have your example of the two different 12th level characters go through this module as you must play the retirement arc before playing this one. And that is probably the way it will stay, so that a "fresh" 12th level will not be able to play with an "experienced" 12th level to begin with.
Hey there, Enevhar. Thanks for helping out.
I'm afraid I wasn't very clear. I was replying to Bob's concern that a 12th-level retired character shouldn't rise to 14th-level, because that character would be too powerfun for any special, as-yet-undisclosed adventures for retired PFS characters, that Mark and Hyrum might generate at some future convention.
I replied that being burdened down with all that extra loot, these characters will already be more powerful than other retired characters; level advancement would only make the problem worse.
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But you bring up a good point. It's my sense that most people with 12th-Level PFS PCs are waiting for the last installment of "Eyes of the Ten" to be published before running their PCs through the series.
How do those characters, who have not completed a victory lap, work in this adventure? The player would presumably treat them the same as, say, 11th-level PCs: advance them temporarily to 14th level (or create some entirely new 14th-level character, but you'll have better luck playing a PC whose abilities you know) and then award them gold, faction prestige, and some moot xp they can't use.
Yes?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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How do those characters, who have not completed a victory lap, work in this adventure? The player would presumably treat them the same as, say, 11th-level PCs: advance them temporarily to 14th level (or create some entirely new 14th-level character, but you'll have better luck playing a PC whose abilities you know) and then award them gold, faction prestige, and some moot xp they can't use.
Yes?
Or they wait six weeks and play Nothing Ventured, Nothing Gained and then this. As well as the 13th-level Academy of Secrets that should be out around June.
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Mark, why can't Pazio create an addtional PFS for characters above EL 12. I understand the problem with alter reality type magic avalble at high levels. Its easy to just say the alter realality magic is not not accessible.
High level PFS could be handled diffrent from regular PFS. From a purely bussiness standpoint I can't see why Pazio limits its revenue by not selling modules for high level play. I think it would only require around 10 modules per year for high level play. More money for Pazio, More fun for those of us that like high level games.
Pazio has created a very fun game world for your players, please don't limit it any longer.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Hi Lou,
The main reason we don't add an extra ten scenarios to the schedule a year is that we're already bursting at the seams to produce the 28+ we are already committed to. After years of publishing adventures of all levels, both back in the Dungeon days and now with Pathfinder, the fact remains that the higher the adventure level, the less it sells. We can't justify repositioning our resources away from areas that have a wider audience and bring in more money for something that is—at least currently—a small niche of our market. We have high-level play available through post-retirement events and level 13+ Modules, but breaking PFS into two different organizations isn't currently something we have on the agenda. I'd personally rather work to make the existing PFS the best organized play program it can possibly be before starting something else.
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Hi Lou,
The main reason we don't add an extra ten scenarios to the schedule a year is that we're already bursting at the seams to produce the 28+ we are already committed to. After years of publishing adventures of all levels, both back in the Dungeon days and now with Pathfinder, the fact remains that the higher the adventure level, the less it sells. We can't justify repositioning our resources away from areas that have a wider audience and bring in more money for something that is—at least currently—a small niche of our market. We have high-level play available through post-retirement events and level 13+ Modules, but breaking PFS into two different organizations isn't currently something we have on the agenda. I'd personally rather work to make the existing PFS the best organized play program it can possibly be before starting something else.
The fact that there is potential down the line is enough for me.
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just making sure i understand.
lets say i've got a fully retired and arc'ed out character.
but i want to play a 14th level character. I model it based on my 12th level character, and just add the 2 levels and use the gold specified in the scenario.
I can't apply that to my 12th level character and take the gold but 0 exp? I have to apply that to another character?
Why not just allow high level characters a version that is freeze-framed in time at 12th, but continues to accumulate gold, and a version that is allowed to level up AND accumulate gold which can ONLY be played in sanctioned / level appropriate modules?
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just making sure i understand.
lets say i've got a fully retired and arc'ed out character.
but i want to play a 14th level character. I model it based on my 12th level character, and just add the 2 levels and use the gold specified in the scenario.I can't apply that to my 12th level character and take the gold but 0 exp? I have to apply that to another character?
Why not just allow high level characters a version that is freeze-framed in time at 12th, but continues to accumulate gold, and a version that is allowed to level up AND accumulate gold which can ONLY be played in sanctioned / level appropriate modules?
I believe the reasoning for this stems from the fact that after completing the level 12 arc, your PC is now way breaking the WBL curve.
You should be pretty hardy and battle-tested enough to be able to take on greater challenges, especially after going through the level 12 arc. Trust me, I have done so myself.
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if you're breaking the WBL curve just after playing the tier 12 arc alone, then how on earth do they write a future tier 12 arc that those characters can play ? i know the handbook says you can only ever play one tier 12 arc. but rules will change, they'll write something that twelfthies can play again, and then the ones that have completed the first arc will be at average wealth for a 14th level character, while freshman 12's will be at a lower wealth bonus... rough trade guys.
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if you're breaking the WBL curve just after playing the tier 12 arc alone, then how on earth do they write a future tier 12 arc that those characters can play ? i know the handbook says you can only ever play one tier 12 arc. but rules will change, they'll write something that twelfthies can play again, and then the ones that have completed the first arc will be at average wealth for a 14th level character, while freshman 12's will be at a lower wealth bonus... rough trade guys.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that your character will only be allowed to go through the level 12 arc once ever. Yes, that may change in the future but there are a lot more things that have to be in place / changes made for that even make it a pressing concern.
As far as the immediate future, I would venture to say that you might see material written into the big specials for retired 12th level characters. I know in earlier discussions on these boards, Mark made it known it is on his radar as more people start to retire. And even before that, Josh Frost also allude to wanting to give special opportunities for retired PCs to come alive again. And if you know retired level 12 characters are playing, you can adjust the CR accordingly to account for this bonus.
But as for now, retired level 12 characters will have to settle for continuing adventures in Academy of Secrets and Tomb of the Iron Medusa. As more and more players reach those levels and there is enough of a market for Paizo, the more likely you will see higher level play being offered. But right now the focus is to get the player base large and offer enough opportunities for people to get to that level.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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if you're breaking the WBL curve just after playing the tier 12 arc alone, then how on earth do they write a future tier 12 arc that those characters can play ? i know the handbook says you can only ever play one tier 12 arc. but rules will change, they'll write something that twelfthies can play again, and then the ones that have completed the first arc will be at average wealth for a 14th level character, while freshman 12's will be at a lower wealth bonus... rough trade guys.
We're aware of this issue, but have no current solution that wouldn't divert resources from existing projects. We will likely revisit how 12th-level characters "retire", the wealth curve, and adventuring past retirement when we release the next retirement arc.