Wondering if an Assassin who is no longer evil can:
1) Keep progressing as an Assassin
2) Keep all their abilities
According to the PRD you just have to be evil to become one. By that logic you could be evil when you take your first level in the class and then somehow become good and still progress.
Personally, I don't know why they have to be evil.
According to the PRD you just have to be evil to become one. By that logic you could be evil when you take your first level in the class and then somehow become good and still progress.
Personally, I don't know why they have to be evil.
Cause killing people for money is evil, mm-kay? Which is, y'know, totally different than killing intelligent monsters and taking their stuff. ;)
|
1) No, if he doesn't meet the prerequisites he can't gain a level in the prestige class.
2) Unless there is an "Ex-Assassins" section, it's undefined.
I'd say, as the default position, you get the basic statistics that any class level or hit die would grant (hit points, BAB, base saves and skills) and keep anything that is simply mundane knowledge, such as poison use, proficiencies and bonus feats, provided you still meet their prerequisites. You may or may not retain abilities that are common to other classes. However, by default, you lose access to any unique class features that are Extraordinary, Spell-Like or Supernatural, or anything based on membership of an organisation.
That would imply an ex-assassin:
- keeps weapon and armour proficiencies
- may or may not keep Sneak Attack
- can't use Death Attack
- keeps Poison Use
- may or may not keep his save bonus vs. poison (I think not)
- may or may not keep Uncanny Dodge
- can't use Hidden Weapons (he can still make Sleight of Hand checks, but doesn't get a bonus to it)
- can't use True Death
- may or may not keep Improved Uncanny Dodge
- can't use Quiet Death, Hide in Plain Sight, Swift Death or Angel of Death.
Again, any "Ex-Class" section or specific ruling overrides the default assumption.
Again, any "Ex-Class" section or specific ruling overrides the default assumption.
The rules don't make that default assumption. Ex-Class areas only tell you if a class has special rules when leaving it.
If someone were to leave the class nothing says they loose any abilities. The default would be the same as normal multiclassing.
|
|
The rules don't make that default assumption.Again, any "Ex-Class" section or specific ruling overrides the default assumption.
I certainly agree. I think RAW would leave him much less.
Ex-Class areas only tell you if a class has special rules when leaving it.
If someone were to leave the class nothing says they loose any abilities. The default would be the same as normal multiclassing.
He's not multiclassing normally (the OP doesn't require that he has gained a level). He's lost access to the class because he has violated its requirements and no longer qualifies for it. The question is what, if anything, he can still use.
According to the PRD you just have to be evil to become one. By that logic you could be evil when you take your first level in the class and then somehow become good and still progress.
Personally, I don't know why they have to be evil.
I agree. Take Fitz from Robin Hobb's Assasin's Aprentice. He's trained as an assasin for the crown, but I wouldn't rule his actions as evil. He's more Lawful Neutral.
He's not multiclassing normally. He's lost access to the class because he no longer qualifies for it.
It's true that no longer being evil means he no longer qualifies for taking the class, but it would function no different than switching classes.
In another example someone can 'level-dip' into a class without finishing it and then leave it without loosing the abilities from that class.
Ex-Class sections are exceptions that list out what abilities you loose and any special things in regards to that class. Since assassin lacks such an area it would function like normal multiclassing.
I know of no rules in Pathfinder that say you'd loose class abilities.
There is no assumption in the rules about Ex-Classes. The only place I have seen that Ex-Classes are discussed is in the class description of classes that have some sort of penalty for losing the qualifications to be in that class. Even in those sections there is no uniformity or assumption. Some classes (Paladin and Cleric) lose everything (SU) or (EX), the only thing they keep is their proficiencies. On the other hand there is the Barbarian who only loses the ability to Rage, but retains all his other (EX) abilities. There is also the Monk who doesn’t lose anything he simply can no longer take levels in that class.
The Assassin class has no Ex-Class entry therefore nothing mechanical should change just because the PC changes alignment. Now, there might be in game, story-line repercussions, but there is nothing strictly saying he can’t continue to take levels in that class, and certainly nothing saying he can’t still use all of his current abilities. (When Jason Bourne grows a conscience he doesn’t lose any lethality or the ability to learn those skills, he just finds himself at odds with the organization from which he initially learned those skills) To say otherwise would be a GM call and it would be a house-rule because the book is completely silent in that matter.
I agree. Take Fitz from Robin Hobb's Assasin's Aprentice. He's trained as an assasin for the crown, but I wouldn't rule his actions as evil. He's more Lawful Neutral.According to the PRD you just have to be evil to become one. By that logic you could be evil when you take your first level in the class and then somehow become good and still progress.
Personally, I don't know why they have to be evil.
You could also be an assassin for a good organization. A Paladin could be considered a lawful good assassin. He is charged with destroying evil.
IMO class abilities do not make a character evil (or even not good). It's how he/she uses those abilities that makes them evil. If they only use their abilities in the protection/defense of others and the defeat of evil then you could easily have a good aligned assassin. Even a Lawful Good assassin who follows a code similar to a Paladin. He just uses different methods.But I'm getting off topic with this. This is the rules forum. :D
|
There is nothing in the rules which state he looses any abilities gained from taking levels in an Assassin class. That being said, if he stops killing for money, an evil act, and turns neutral or good, I would say, he can't actually gain more Assassin levels and may in fact have a "hit" placed on him by any former organization he belonged too.
Anything else would be house rules.
Here's James' take on our discussion.
(When Jason Bourne grows a conscience he doesn’t lose any lethality or the ability to learn those skills, he just finds himself at odds with the organization from which he initially learned those skills) To say otherwise would be a GM call and it would be a house-rule because the book is completely silent in that matter.
First example I thought of too... there are lots of movies about 'good' or at least 'heroic' assassins or snipers who turn from their evil ways...
Heck, before they released the 'ninja' class... Ninja's should be considered Assassins.. how many 'good' ninjas are there.
regardless, the most I would begrudgingly accept would be that they MAY not be able to Continue leveling as an assassin... though really... it's just a skill set you keep honing... It doesn't require you to actually take jobs to level.
However i am ALWAYS against the idea of LOSING abilities. Like i said, they are skill and talents you've picked up... Just because you grow a conscience doesn't meant that you forgot how to aim a crossbow... You don't LOSE talents and skills. Certainly not in the few weeks between levels your character just lived.
One of the reasons I love the Pathfinder 'level drain' stuff... You don't forget spells and proficiencies like you did in 2e.
Here's the rest of what he said here:
...should we assume that these requirements are for each level not just the first to become an Assassin?The requirements to become an assassin are not the same as the requirements to remain an assassin. Once you qualify for a prestige class, you can keep taking levels in it even if through some weird effect you lose some of those qualifications. Losing things like that is rare and unusual, so it's a case-by-case scenario, really, that the GM would have to adjudicate as they came up, actually.
In the case of the assassin though... doing a lot of the things assassins do would be likely to skew you toward evil anyway is all I'm saying.