I have a level 7 cleric in my party who has the death domain and teh ability to cast Animate Dead. Recently they encountered a Dire Tiger and it was uncomfortably close to a TPK. After they ended up slaying the Dire tiger my cleric wanted to Animate it. He didn't have the needed opals, but here is my questions. If he was able to raise it under the rule he would have been able to command a zombie version of a beast that was as powerful as the whole party? It seem to me that is to powerful of a spell for third level. By adding the zombie template it seems to make the beast even stronger, (minus the special attacks and staggered condition) am I reading this wrong? Thanks for your help!
He can't animate a Dire Tiger at 7th level anyway. He can control on 14 HD worth of undead from Animate Dead. So a Dire Tiger has 14 HD plus 2 HD from being a Zombie. Though he could make it into a Skeleton.
Also keep in mind a Skeleton Dire Tiger doesn't get Pounce or Rake. So i don't think its that powerful.
Considering it probably shredded the party using its claw/claw/bite combination, staggered is a big reduction in power. As a zombie it can either take a move action or an attack on its round. One move, or one attack. As an undead it will also lose 42hp, as it will no longer have a Con score and only has Cha 10. Dex is reduced, so AC goes down 1, but that will be countered by a +3 to natural armor.
So no. Put a live dire tiger into a pit with a zombified version, and I'll take the live one every time.
Because of the staggered condition, the dire tiger can only attack once per round. This is a huge penalty for a monster with a claw/claw/bite routine.
Also, a large zombie has +2 hit dices, so a dire tiger zombie would have 16 hit dice instead of 14 hit dices. Since a 7th-level cleric can only raise an undead with a maximum of 14 hit dices with animate dead, he can't create an animated dire tiger until his next level.
Brain in a Jar wrote: He can't animate a Dire Tiger at 7th level anyway. He can control on 14 HD worth of undead from Animate Dead. So a Dire Tiger has 14 HD plus 2 HD from being a Zombie. Though he could make it into a Skeleton.
Also keep in mind a Skeleton Dire Tiger doesn't get Pounce or Rake. So i don't think its that powerful.
You don't double the HD in Pathfinder. You change HD to d8s (so no change here) and add bonus HD according to size. So it would be a 9HD zombie with an average of 49hp. (due to the Toughness feat)
Well, animate dead is pretty powerful but I would say that the fast zombie dire tiger is not more powerful than the dire tiger.
Edit: I thought you said he was making a fast zombie hehe. If he is making a regular zombie then there is not much to worry about
IE, he loses the special abilities and feats. So he loses pounce, rake, grab, weapon focus, imp crit, and 3 less natural armor . He also has 28 less hp, doesn't naturally heal, and is destroyed at 0. I think the loss of pounce is the biggest. But he will be getting a str boost and slam attacks to replace the rakes. So it is a mixed bag.
Undead minions are great especially the early levels around 5 to 10 because any high HD monster enemy you throw at your PCs is going to become their shield if they survive the fight. And yes his minion could be greater than the entire party at that point.
But they don't heal naturally thus requiring manual healing and most societies do not like them or necromancers. Some shunning may occur(or militias may be formed to take them out as well).
I remember when my level 6 party fought a 18 or so HD black dragon and I announced I was going to animate it. It was hillarious because the next bbeg was afraid of me.
Animate dead is like leadership, expect it to change the power dynamic a bit.
Plus Animate Dead is an evil spell so anyone of a good alignment should have a problem with it.
FallofCamelot wrote: Plus Animate Dead is an evil spell so anyone of a good alignment should have a problem with it. Any divine spellcaster with a good alignment or/and serving a good deity can't cast animate dead.
Brain in a Jar wrote: He can't animate a Dire Tiger at 7th level anyway. He can control on 14 HD worth of undead from Animate Dead. So a Dire Tiger has 14 HD plus 2 HD from being a Zombie. Though he could make it into a Skeleton.
Also keep in mind a Skeleton Dire Tiger doesn't get Pounce or Rake. So i don't think its that powerful.
You Can control 4x your lvl in total HD. You can only raise 2x your level at a single casting.
PhilUMD wrote: Brain in a Jar wrote: He can't animate a Dire Tiger at 7th level anyway. He can control on 14 HD worth of undead from Animate Dead. So a Dire Tiger has 14 HD plus 2 HD from being a Zombie. Though he could make it into a Skeleton.
Also keep in mind a Skeleton Dire Tiger doesn't get Pounce or Rake. So i don't think its that powerful.
You Can control 4x your lvl in total HD. You can only raise 2x your level at a single casting. Which means that you cannot control a zombie with 16 hit dices at level 7, but you can control 2 zombies with 14 hit dices.
PhilUMD wrote: Brain in a Jar wrote: He can't animate a Dire Tiger at 7th level anyway. He can control on 14 HD worth of undead from Animate Dead. So a Dire Tiger has 14 HD plus 2 HD from being a Zombie. Though he could make it into a Skeleton.
Also keep in mind a Skeleton Dire Tiger doesn't get Pounce or Rake. So i don't think its that powerful.
You Can control 4x your lvl in total HD. You can only raise 2x your level at a single casting. Well, unless you cast Animate Dead while in an area under the effect of the spell Desecrate. Then you can raise 4x your level in HD with one casting. Yeah, a level 10 Wizard or Cleric in a Desecrated zone can raise a single 40 HD creature with Animate Dead, just by the numbers. All for just 1025 GP (or a little more if you have to hire the Desecrate spell from an evil or neutral Cleric).
Read the spell Animate Dead. You get to have 4x your lvl in HD of undead you make. per casting you can make 2x Unless you use Desicrate, which alows you to do up to 4x, along with other bonuses.
Nigrescence wrote: PhilUMD wrote: Brain in a Jar wrote: He can't animate a Dire Tiger at 7th level anyway. He can control on 14 HD worth of undead from Animate Dead. So a Dire Tiger has 14 HD plus 2 HD from being a Zombie. Though he could make it into a Skeleton.
Also keep in mind a Skeleton Dire Tiger doesn't get Pounce or Rake. So i don't think its that powerful.
You Can control 4x your lvl in total HD. You can only raise 2x your level at a single casting. Well, unless you cast Animate Dead while in an area under the effect of the spell Desecrate. Then you can raise 4x your level in HD with one casting. Or from a scroll with higher caster level.
stringburka wrote: Nigrescence wrote: PhilUMD wrote: Brain in a Jar wrote: He can't animate a Dire Tiger at 7th level anyway. He can control on 14 HD worth of undead from Animate Dead. So a Dire Tiger has 14 HD plus 2 HD from being a Zombie. Though he could make it into a Skeleton.
Also keep in mind a Skeleton Dire Tiger doesn't get Pounce or Rake. So i don't think its that powerful.
You Can control 4x your lvl in total HD. You can only raise 2x your level at a single casting. Well, unless you cast Animate Dead while in an area under the effect of the spell Desecrate. Then you can raise 4x your level in HD with one casting. Or from a scroll with higher caster level. But only with Desecrate can you bypass the hard limit on HD per casting.
So a level 20 Wizard or Cleric casting Animate Dead can only get 40 HD, while one casting within Desecrate can get 80 HD.
Also, you can only technically get up to 20 HD per animated undead, I think, but you can use that extra HD equivalent to make them special undead types.
Another thing to keep in mind is that animate dead only lets the caster do a couple things with the undead: follow or attack any creature in an area (or just attack a certain kind).
So, if your party is full of humans, and you come across an enemy group full of humans, your mindless undead will make no distinction about who they attack. I have the undead attack the nearest creature.
Of course, if they enemy group is full of elves, and you only have one elf in your party, it should work fine as long as your friend elf doesn't get closer than the enemy elves. Though, if the animator is brought below 0 hp and unconscious, the undead will continue to attack elves until give other orders...and if the animator is killed, the undead are released and attack anyone.
reefwood wrote: Another thing to keep in mind is that animate dead only lets the caster do a couple things with the undead: follow or attack any creature in an area (or just attack a certain kind).
So, if your party is full of humans, and you come across an enemy group full of humans, your mindless undead will make no distinction about who they attack. I have the undead attack the nearest creature.
Of course, if they enemy group is full of elves, and you only have one elf in your party, it should work fine as long as your friend elf doesn't get closer than the enemy elves. Though, if the animator is brought below 0 hp and unconscious, the undead will continue to attack elves until give other orders...and if the animator is killed, the undead are released and attack anyone.
If your undead minions are following you, they obey your vocal commands, so you can order them to do just about anything. However, I house-ruled that complex commands, like flanking or combat maneuvres, take a move action to order.
Maerimydra wrote: If your undead minions are following you, they obey your vocal commands, so you can order them to do just about anything. However, I house-ruled that complex commands, like flanking or combat maneuvres, take a move action to order. Hmmm...I guess the word "follow" does have multiple definitions.
I have been using the definition that means "move behind in the same direction" based on the context of the spell description. It says they "can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area..." The "move behind in the same direction" definition seems to line up better as the alternate (i.e. or) to the "remain in an area" option.
Cos if this use of "follow" was supposed to mean to "obey any command," it would seem odd that the alternative of obeying would be to remain in an area. If they could obey any command, there wouldn't be much need to specify that one thing they can do is stand still.
The spell command undead seems to allow for more varied (but still simple) commands for mindless undead, so the necromancer in my game casts that spell on all the skeletons he animates, and it lasts for 1 day/level, so even from the start of learning animate dead, the command undead lasts 1 week per casting, so it doesn't use up much of his overall spell slots.
Why don't Clerics get Command Undead? They get Command and Mass Command but not Command Undead. Dosn't it seem like they should get it as well? they are great at playing with undead, but they don't get that key spell?
Clerics get the "Command Undead" feat instead, which functions similarly to the 7th-level spell "control undead".
In the past, they wouldn't have needed the spell since commanding undead was part of the "turn/rebuke undead" class feature. Since that has been replaced with the "channel energy" class feature you could make a case for adding the spell to their repertoire, but they have instead received the option to do so with a feat.
Right it dose. However it isn't the same. A Necro Cleric of say 5th lvl could have 25 HD of undead following him, 20 with Animate Undead and 5 with Command Undead. They could be diffrent undead. If he limits himself to only Command Undead then he can't have a very powerfull undead, as it's HD has to be equal or less then his own. At lvl 5 a cyclops could be his undead pet with 10HD, or a Tiger or Minitaur with 6HD (both have 6HD). He could not use channaling to achive that.
In 3.5 if you HD was Dubble the undead's HD when you turned them you could controle them. the Command Undead feat is basicaly that old ability.
I'm trying to think of how to get Command Undead onto the Cleric list, because they make much better Necros then Wiz or Sorcs do. But if they can't controle their pets it can be an issue.
ddgon wrote: Right it dose. However it isn't the same. A Necro Cleric of say 5th lvl could have 25 HD of undead following him, 20 with Animate Undead and 5 with Command Undead. They could be diffrent undead. If he limits himself to only Command Undead then he can't have a very powerfull undead, as it's HD has to be equal or less then his own. At lvl 5 a cyclops could be his undead pet with 10HD, or a Tiger or Minitaur with 6HD (both have 6HD). He could not use channaling to achive that.
In 3.5 if you HD was Dubble the undead's HD when you turned them you could controle them. the Command Undead feat is basicaly that old ability.
I'm trying to think of how to get Command Undead onto the Cleric list, because they make much better Necros then Wiz or Sorcs do. But if they can't controle their pets it can be an issue.
That is an interesting point.
Perhaps the Sor/Wiz necromancer is simply meant to have greater control. A Cleric has more hit points and can wear armor without a chance for spell failure, so maybe the Sor/Wiz needs more powerful undead to stay alive?
Or maybe one class is supposed to be better at one thing and the other class is better at another thing, so if you want to be better at both these things, you need to multiclass (and not be as good at other things).
FallofCamelot wrote: Plus Animate Dead is an evil spell so anyone of a good alignment should have a problem with it. Also a group which travels with undead, especially with such a big one, will be a good excuse for every good guards/soldiers/paladins etc. to shoot first and ask la... shoot again to be sure everyone is dead and then try to ask questions :)
Maerimydra wrote:
Also, a large zombie has +2 hit dices
[teacher]
"dice". One die, two dice.
[/teacher]
reefwood wrote: Another thing to keep in mind is that animate dead only lets the caster do a couple things with the undead: follow or attack any creature in an area (or just attack a certain kind).
You confuse things.
You can "program" them to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. However, if you have them with you, that limitation does not exist. They obey your spoken commands. Commands like "Attack that guy over there". Plus, "specific kind of creature" can be "anyone who doesn't say 'Tar-Baphon' upon entering". They might not be smart, and anyone who hides beside the door and eavesdrops will be able to bypass them easily, but some basic identification is possible.
The scenario you propose would make mindless undead quite useless.
A Smilodon is a CR 8. A Smilodon Zombie is a CR 6. It loses 4 AC, 17 hp, 8 Fort, 6 Ref, 2 Dex, 2 Wis, pounce, rake, all its feats, all its skill ranks, and it gains:
the staggered condition.
So it serves well as a mindless slab of meat to take some damage and as a GP sink and is not overpowered at all. I say let him animate it. You don't even have to cripple him with bogus RP restrictions. Animate Dead is good, but not awesome.
KaeYoss wrote: Maerimydra wrote:
Also, a large zombie has +2 hit dices
[teacher]
"dice". One die, two dice.
[/teacher] Thank you for the correction, I'll try to remember that.
KaeYoss wrote:
reefwood wrote: Another thing to keep in mind is that animate dead only lets the caster do a couple things with the undead: follow or attack any creature in an area (or just attack a certain kind).
You confuse things.
You can "program" them to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. However, if you have them with you, that limitation does not exist. They obey your spoken commands. Commands like "Attack that guy over there". Plus, "specific kind of creature" can be "anyone who doesn't say 'Tar-Baphon' upon entering". They might not be smart, and anyone who hides beside the door and eavesdrops will be able to bypass them easily, but some basic identification is possible.
The scenario you propose would make mindless undead quite useless.
Exactly. It's written in the spell description that animated undeads obey your vocal commands. The spell Command Undead is for controlling undeads that you didn't create.
Just to make this point again. While making a regular zombie is not a powerful option, there is no reason a caster animating a corpse should be stuck with that option.
A die tiger being reanimated as a fast zombie.
A dire tiger can be reanimated as a bloody skeleton(loses pounce but gains fast healing 7 and is not destroyed at 0 hp. Furthermore a lvl 7 caster can animate this bloody dire tiger skeleton while using desecration.)
A fast zombie tiger will be slightly weaker than a regular one but a bloody skeleton should definitely be stronger than a regular dire tiger. Also consider that its fast healing makes it a cheap meat shield for the party.
Also another cool trick is to animate a ton of fiery toads and put em in a bag. You don't even need to control them. Just fly over enemies and drop hundreds of exploding toads down upon(this was better in 3.5 when toads had 1/4 hd...) :(
thepuregamer wrote: Just to make this point again. While making a regular zombie is not a powerful option, there is no reason a caster animating a corpse should be stuck with that option.
A die tiger being reanimated as a fast zombie.
A dire tiger can be reanimated as a bloody skeleton(loses pounce but gains fast healing 7 and is not destroyed at 0 hp. Furthermore a lvl 7 caster can animate this bloody dire tiger skeleton while using desecration.)
A fast zombie tiger will be slightly weaker than a regular one but a bloody skeleton should definitely be stronger than a regular dire tiger. Also consider that its fast healing makes it a cheap meat shield for the party.
Also another cool trick is to animate a ton of fiery toads and put em in a bag. You don't even need to control them. Just fly over enemies and drop hundreds of exploding toads down upon(this was better in 3.5 when toads had 1/4 hd...) :(
Yeah, there's some stuff that's really good that you could do. Just wanted to note some stuff on the dire tiger/bloody skeleton dire tiger though:
It loses:
- 3 AC (-4 natural, +1 dex)
- 14 hit points (goes from +3 con to +2 cha)
- Attack goes from 2 claws +18 (2d4+8 plus grab), bite +18 (2d6+8/19–20 plus grab) to 2 claws +17 (2d4+8), bite +17 (2d6+8) (losing imp crit and WF)
- Skills go from Acrobatics +6, Perception +12, Stealth +15 (+23 in tall grass) to Acrobatics +3, Perception +1, Stealth +3
- It loses it's animal intelligence/instincts (and with that, a lot of tactical ability)
- Loses pounce and rake
It gains:
- DR 5/bludge and immunity to cold
- +1 Initiative
- Immunity to mind-affecting, poison et cetera
- Fast healing 7
- Can be turned/can't be healed by positive energy (but has Channel Res 4)
While it's a good pet, I'd still bet my money on a regular dire tiger over this. While the defensive gains of the skeleton is large, it loses a LOT of offensive power and -3 AC and 12% of hit points is also a big deal. Loss of skill and animal intelligence makes it far less useful - part of what makes a dire tiger dangerous is that the combat will start with "surprise round, a dire tiger jumps from the grass and charges the mage for +20/+20/+20 (2d8+4/2d8+4/2d6+8(19+x2) and grab)".
Encountering the bloody skeleton is more... "Well, it's standing there, waiting for you...".
Bloody skeletons are good slaves, no doubt, but they're usually not better than the original.
If I understand the rules right, and I might not, a lvl 5 Cleric could have a Fast Zombie Dire Tiger as a pet. only 16hd, which is under the 20HD that he could animate at one time (with desecrate). the HP would actualy be about the same, as the +3 con is equaled by the feat toughness and desecration (feat = +1hp/lvl and Desecrateion = +2ph/lvl)
and it would keep it's claw/claw/bite attack and maybe add a slam at the end. Not a half bad pet, and a decent meat shield.
yes bloody skeletons are not the best, but if you make them flaming and send them in as basicaly suicide bomers they can be fun. they go boom and a while later get back up. also animate dead starts to get costly, and a bloody skeleton's ability to get back up can really help your gold ammount.
Why does everyone think you can animate a zombie or skeleton with fast/bloody, etc. It doesn't say that in the spell anywhere, nor in the template descriptions.
Is this some errata I've missed?
My games 7th level wizard can raise an 18HD skeletal t-rex with desecrate. This is a CR 8 creature with +2hp per level. He can more than double his power with a simple expenditure.
At high levels animated dead are largely useless. I think animate dead, and the calling spells need to work on CR not HD, HD is a poor metric of power and stacks totally different to how CR does. A few giant creatures are better than a load of little ones, by dramatic amount.
In the bestiary it mentions that "Both of these variant skeletons can be created using animate dead, but they count as twice their normal number of Hit Dice per casting."
As for zombies, I think it'd be the same.
EDIT: PRD - Look under Variant Skeleton.
Woo!
Even more pointless HD =/= CR problems.
All of these get a monster spells should work on CR, summon monster does. Ah well, houserules! Its what's for breakfast.
stringburka wrote:
It loses:
- 3 AC (-4 natural, +1 dex)
- 14 hit points (goes from +3 con to +2 cha)
- Attack goes from 2 claws +18 (2d4+8 plus grab), bite +18 (2d6+8/19–20 plus grab) to 2 claws +17 (2d4+8), bite +17 (2d6+8) (losing imp crit and WF)
- Skills go from Acrobatics +6, Perception +12, Stealth +15 (+23 in tall grass) to Acrobatics +3, Perception +1, Stealth +3
- It loses it's animal intelligence/instincts (and with that, a lot of tactical ability)
- Loses pounce and rake
It gains:
- DR 5/bludge and immunity to cold
- +1 Initiative
- Immunity to mind-affecting, poison et cetera
- Fast healing 7
- Can be turned/can't be healed by positive energy (but has Channel Res 4)
While it's a good pet, I'd still bet my money on a regular dire tiger over this. While the defensive gains of the skeleton is large, it loses a LOT of offensive power and -3 AC and 12% of hit points is also a big deal. Loss of skill and animal intelligence makes it far...
I think we are arguing different things. A plain old dire tiger is a better offensive creature. It pounces with 5 attacks even in a surprise round(you get the 2 rakes when you pounce) and has a slightly chance to hit. So pounces will do nearly double the damage and regular full attacks will also be slightly higher.
But dire tigers are definitely glass cannons. With only 17 AC(15 when they are pouncing). They eat quite a few hits.
If I were to have to choose between the two, I would likely pick the bloody skeleton dire tiger because while not as explosive, it has 4 forms of defense.
Mental immunities, DR 5, fast healing 7, and can't be killed unless hit by positive energy while at 0 or brought to 0 in a zone of hallow or bless. So he has quite a few defenses which is nice.
BTW, does anyone know how to make skeletal champions? I bet it requires create undead or the greater version.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nigrescence wrote: PhilUMD wrote: Brain in a Jar wrote: He can't animate a Dire Tiger at 7th level anyway. He can control on 14 HD worth of undead from Animate Dead. So a Dire Tiger has 14 HD plus 2 HD from being a Zombie. Though he could make it into a Skeleton.
Also keep in mind a Skeleton Dire Tiger doesn't get Pounce or Rake. So i don't think its that powerful.
You Can control 4x your lvl in total HD. You can only raise 2x your level at a single casting. Well, unless you cast Animate Dead while in an area under the effect of the spell Desecrate. Then you can raise 4x your level in HD with one casting. Yeah, a level 10 Wizard or Cleric in a Desecrated zone can raise a single 40 HD creature with Animate Dead, just by the numbers. All for just 1025 GP (or a little more if you have to hire the Desecrate spell from an evil or neutral Cleric). Once you leave the area of Desecration, normal limits apply as far as controlling.
LazarX wrote: Nigrescence wrote: PhilUMD wrote: Brain in a Jar wrote: He can't animate a Dire Tiger at 7th level anyway. He can control on 14 HD worth of undead from Animate Dead. So a Dire Tiger has 14 HD plus 2 HD from being a Zombie. Though he could make it into a Skeleton.
Also keep in mind a Skeleton Dire Tiger doesn't get Pounce or Rake. So i don't think its that powerful.
You Can control 4x your lvl in total HD. You can only raise 2x your level at a single casting. Well, unless you cast Animate Dead while in an area under the effect of the spell Desecrate. Then you can raise 4x your level in HD with one casting. Yeah, a level 10 Wizard or Cleric in a Desecrated zone can raise a single 40 HD creature with Animate Dead, just by the numbers. All for just 1025 GP (or a little more if you have to hire the Desecrate spell from an evil or neutral Cleric). Once you leave the area of Desecration, normal limits apply as far as controlling. and you can control 4x your CL in undead. You can animate 2x your cl in undead unless you animate them in a zone of desecrate. While it says that you cannot animate a skeleton of more than 20 HD using animate dead, I have not seen the same text in the zombie template or the animate dead spell. So it looks like a lvl 10 wizard or cleric in a zone of a desecrate could animate a 40 HD zombie. (of course you have to kill a 40 hd creature first- go get yourself a tarrasque)
I think that would be pretty nuts.
thepuregamer wrote: and you can control 4x your CL in undead. You can animate 2x your cl in undead unless you animate them in a zone of desecrate. While it says that you cannot animate a skeleton of more than 20 HD using animate dead, I have not seen the same text in the zombie template or the animate dead spell. So it looks like a lvl 10 wizard or cleric in a zone of a desecrate could animate a 40 HD zombie. (of course you have to kill a 40 hd creature first- go get yourself a tarrasque)
I think that would be pretty nuts.
Exactly. Desecrate only improves the amount you can raise in a SINGLE casting, as well as improving the power of the undead you raise.
Of course, you don't need to get a 40 HD creature. You can easily get a 10 HD creature, and then apply Bloody and Burning to the skeleton to make it doubled and doubled again in how much HD it counts for raising.
Kakarasa wrote: In the bestiary it mentions that "Both of these variant skeletons can be created using animate dead, but they count as twice their normal number of Hit Dice per casting."
As for zombies, I think it'd be the same.
EDIT: PRD - Look under Variant Skeleton.
So, if Skellys are capped at 20 HD, a bloody Dire Tiger Skelly isn't even possible because it counts as a 28 HD Skelly?
Quantum Steve wrote: Kakarasa wrote: In the bestiary it mentions that "Both of these variant skeletons can be created using animate dead, but they count as twice their normal number of Hit Dice per casting."
As for zombies, I think it'd be the same.
EDIT: PRD - Look under Variant Skeleton.
So, if Skellys are capped at 20 HD, a bloody Dire Tiger Skelly isn't even possible because it counts as a 28 HD Skelly? No, it's possible. It's only not possible to raise if the initial creature has more than 20 HD.
A raised creature with the variants applied only count as having more HD for the purposes of raising.
You can even raise a 20 HD creature with Bloody and Burning in one casting if you do it within a Desecrate spell and are a level 20 caster.
Quantum Steve wrote: Kakarasa wrote: In the bestiary it mentions that "Both of these variant skeletons can be created using animate dead, but they count as twice their normal number of Hit Dice per casting."
As for zombies, I think it'd be the same.
EDIT: PRD - Look under Variant Skeleton.
So, if Skellys are capped at 20 HD, a bloody Dire Tiger Skelly isn't even possible because it counts as a 28 HD Skelly? yeah skeletons seem to be capped at 20 actual HD.
"If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can't be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell. "
thepuregamer wrote:
yeah skeletons seem to be capped at 20 actual HD.
"If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can't be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell. "
Since variant skeletons count as their normal HD to determine how many you can control at once, I wouldn't say the doubling counts against the max 20 HD limit. I dunno which is right though.
KaeYoss wrote: You confuse things.
You can "program" them to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. However, if you have them with you, that limitation does not exist. They obey your spoken commands. Commands like "Attack that guy over there". Plus, "specific kind of creature" can be "anyone who doesn't say 'Tar-Baphon' upon entering". They might not be smart, and anyone who hides beside the door and eavesdrops will be able to bypass them easily, but some basic identification is possible.
The scenario you propose would make mindless undead quite useless.
Well, that certainly hasn't been the case. There's still plenty to be done with creatures that will attack anyone or just certain kinds or just guard areas. The mindless creatures don't have anything in terms of smarts or strategy themselves, but the players have done a good job of making them quite useful.
...Is it just me or does that sound like an awesome project? Res a big tiger as a bloody skeleton. Maybe start attaching armor on it and a saddle. Start making it a sort of lumbering battle mount, and set up a storage in it's skeletal belly for hauling treasure. Heck, I'd attach some wings to it and tell to fly up over stuff and just fall.
Ha, undead are funny.
But nah, just a raised single big creature isn't too bad, it's only if the person modifies it like I mentioned above that it can turn into a real force. ..Or maybe a Skeletal Champion? I need to double check that.
EDIT: Yeah looking at skeletal champion they retain intelligence, that alone would make it a much more useful creature. Still wouldn't have the raw force of a living tiger but being able to stalk and understand normal talk...yeah. But while the book says that they don't normally happen through the animate dead spell. It's through a ritual that isn't noted. So maybe if you wanna make him go on a quest or something for that.
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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I use the list of animal companion tricks as a guide to what you can order mindless undead to do.
Heck, even thought the spell says it, I don't allow "attack a specific kind of creature". They have no intelligence, they automatically fail knowledge skill checks to identify creature's, so I don't see how they'd be able to tell the difference between a human and a halfling much less a human and a half-elf.
The best I'd allow is "guard this place from anything except me and my companions". Even then, they'd be fooled by anyone with a reasonable disguise.
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