GRC on Facebook (linkyfied for convenience!)
Thank you again, and that is very cool!
Our idea is, the MSRD and PSRD are free, and we would also like the core rules to be free also, kind of like a “PMSRD”.
...and joined the FB page. :)
Question about archetypes:
Bit of a wording conflict on them -
p6 reads: "An Archetype must be chosen at 1st level"
while p23 reads: "An Archetype can be chosen at 1st level."
Which one is correct?
Now, on to the mechanics.
How many Archetypes can you pick? Seems you can only pick one at 1st level. Can you pick a different one at 2nd? Another at 3rd?
The archetype chosen at 1st level affects my PC's mechanics across the board, giving it specific BAB & save progressions, specific HD, and specific skill points. This is then overlaid on the Modern Hero class on p5, right?
The archetypes look like classes to me, honestly. What am I misunderstanding?
(NB: I've never played 20 Modern, so if there is a holdover from that, I'll miss it.)
You can chose an Archetype, but you don't have to. You can only have one, but there are cross training talents so you can branch off into another archetype.
Archetypes are alot lot classes, but they have no pre-req.
Archetypes are new with the pathfinder system, not D20 Modern.
BTW - Our editors are going back over the rules to get any bugs and errors. I think he will be done Friday, so please post here and let Jason know. After that, I think we will upload to RPGNow and such.
Finally had a chance to get a good look at this. Unfortunately it being a single class system pretty much makes it an automatic no go for me. Good luck with it though, I hope people have lots of fun with it.
That's cool, I understand everyone has thier likes and dislikes, and that is very cool.
Aaah, ok - you *can* pick one, but if you do, it *must* be chosen at 1st level. Right? I'm not sure I see a reason to *not* take an Archetype, personally.
So AC Bonus, Reputation, and Special progressions remain the same for all characters, regardless of Archetype (or lack of)?
If my character takes the Daredevil Archetype, then the Archetype-specific information replaces that given for the base Modern Hero, right?
Cross-training. I'm most likely missing this somewhere, but where is this explained? I've seen it referenced twice - p6 and p23.
p6 - "There are "cross training" abilities that any Archetype can buy..."
p23 - "It is possible to gain Training abilities from another archetype by taking the "Cross Training" ability." This will open up the Training tree of that Archetype to the Hero."
I can't find this ability. My best guess is this should be a Talent, something like:
===
CROSS-TRAINING
A Hero can select a Training ability from an additional Archetype.
Prerequisite: none
Benefit: The Hero can spend a Training slot on a Training ability from either his base Archetype Training Tree or the Archetype selected for this Talent.
Normal: The Hero may select Training abilities only from his base Archetype's Training Tree.
This Talent may be selected multiple times. Each time it is taken, it applies to a new Archetype.
===
Was something like this the intent of the "cross-training" references?
lol yep that is it. It was a last min add on and I thought it was in, but it appear I missed it. Added to the bugs for Jason to fix!
BTW - Thank You!
I did put it in the Hero lab dataset under the Archetype Training, that is must have been what I was think of.
@Kolo:
I don't really see it as a single-class system. With 12 archetypes modifying the base class in the same ways (meaning they all modifiy the same categories), it really seems to me like its a 12-class system.
I must not be understanding the idea behind Archetypes, or something.
Seems like there was a post about that not long ago here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/arePrestigeClassesNecessaryOrEvenNeededNowThatThereAreArchetypes
@Kolo:
I don't really see it as a single-class system. With 12 archetypes modifying the base class in the same ways (meaning they all modifiy the same categories), it really seems to me like its a 12-class system.I must not be understanding the idea behind Archetypes, or something.
Archetypes arent a class, they are a part of a class. And along with them each and every piece of the class is a choice, an undirected choice in this case. I do not like it when every single option for a class requires an individual choice. I already thought the 6 classes for d20 modern were too vague and would prefer better defined classes, and this takes that much much further. It just gets too difficult to create characters especially as a dm creating npcs.
For me it is extremely frustrating to not have any initial direction. I was one of those kids when i was young, where if you just told me to draw you a picture, i wouldnt be able to think of anything. If you told me to draw a cat, or a house or something I could come up with something. But without that initial direction, the sheer variety of possibilities means I cannot single out any of them.
When it comes to roleplaying games, I generally start my concept from the mechanical side. I see something that interests me (usually a class) and build a character around it both mechanically, and in terms of flavor and personality. Without that I have a lot of trouble coming up with characters that are both interesting to play and fun to roleplay.
I ran into this a fair amount in Star wars Saga edition, and given this system is even more flexible, it would be considerably more difficult for me to play or run.
Edit: Please note it is not my intention to complain or to threadjack here. Seems to me the guys here did a great job on this product. It just isnt something I am interested in, which I find unfortunate.
We had a playtest say the same thing about the classes, but we decided to allow the player to make their own options as they see fit. I do agree that is more work to make an NPC, and that one reason we included the Hero Lab dataset.
Now keep in mind you can still use the fantasy classes, it’s just they are rare and training is hard to find.
(poor Jason! We keep creating more work for him!)
So I'm looking at Archetypes and they remind me of base classes. Each Archetype provides skill points, HD, BAB, 3 save progressions, bonus skills, & bonus feats. At least, that is my understanding.
Let me use the Daredevil Archetype as an example.
"skill points per level: 5" - This replaces the Modern Hero's "skill ranks per level: 2+Int mod" entry, right? If so, shouldn't it read 5+Int Mod?
"hit dice per level: 8" - This replaces the Modern Hero's "Hit Dice: d8," correct? If so, shouldn't it read "Hit Die: d8"?
"Attack Bonus: Medium" - Is this the Archetype's BAB progression? This replaces the Modern Hero's Base Attack column, right?
Each Archetype gives a progression for all three saves and some have bonus skills and feats. Isn't that effectively a class? (especially if you couple it with the Backgrounds available)
(*assuming* I am understanding the mechanics correctly! If I am, I like the system a good deal! I'm just the opposite of Kolo - I *love* the wide-open design systems, as do my players. We almost switched to True20 due to the use of the generic classes.)
Yep that’s it; the Archetypes are very similar to a class without the pre-requirements. You can call it a class if you want, but the Archetypes seemed to work with the one class system.
HA!! toe-MAY-toe, toe-MAH-toe - as long as I understand how to apply the mechanics, I'm happy!
So an Archetype can only be selected once, and then at 1st level. *IF* you select an Archetype, then the Modern Hero class is modified based on the information provided under the Archetype (effectively recreating the Modern Hero class). If the player doesn't select an Archetype, then his Modern Hero is as statted up on p5.
Anyone who does this better snatch up the "Cross-trained" Talent, because otherwise I see *no* way for a Modern Hero without an Archetype to gain any Training abilities. True, they can convert them to either a Talent or Extra Feat.
Next question: what *about* Feats? Do Modern Heroes still get Feats at the same progression as a standard Pathfinder human? Are standard feats even still available? I *assume* in the absence of rules to the contrary, standard Pathfinder rules apply.
Yep for feats, standard Pathfinder applies.
Cross Training also has no pre-req, so if you didn't take an archetype you can still take it when you get a training ability.
Excellent, excellent. I do believe I'm going to like this system a LOT.
Cool, I am glad it is helpful!
So... there are 24 backgrounds and (effectively) 13 Archetypes (1 core class and 12 Archetypes, but the Archetype you select overrides the base class, so 13 distinct options). 24 x 13 = THREE HUNDRED TWELVE distinct character classes! This is before taking the "Extra Background" feat or "Cross-Trained" Talent.
Question on the "Extra Background" feat. It lists "Modern Hero base class" as a prereq. Is this a HeroLab artifact, to prevent it from being used by a more "traditional" class? Or does it mean you have to opt to *not* take an archetype?
Hero Lab artifact, but it brings up a good point. If you are using a fantasy class you wouldn't have access to the backgrounds and difficulties. I think we did that as a game balance between Modern Hero and the other classes.
Not to say as a GM you couldn't let a fantasy class use them, but it might sway the balance out a bit.
If you do let Fantasy class take difficulties, give them a bonus feat instead of the bonus Talent and Backgrounds as a Trait.
Need to put that in the update……
Dear Lord... that means... if you look at the system as being “class = background (+ background) + archetype,” then you have seven thousand four hundred eighty-eight classes to work with.
Personally, I'm outlawing the traditional classes in any Modern campaign I run. Mainly for bookkeeping purposes.
I'm working on building my first character using the Modern Hero rules. I think I'm going to write it up as an example an post it for critiquing how I went about it.
lol, that is a lot of classes, lol
Cool, let us know how it goes. We have been doing it Hero Lab, but that is just our pref, (also easier for the GM to make sure everyone is correct).
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So I have a question. You keep saying that the archetypes are like classes but without the requirements. My question is what do you mean by this? Classes almost never have requirements, Paladin and Monk excluded. The only "classes" that have regular requirements are Prestige Classes and in Modern, Advanced Classes.
My wonder is why you decided to make them "archetypes" when:
1: They are effectively actual classes in there own right.
2: They are nothing like archetypes in Pathfinder.
3: Classes almost never have requirements.
I just don't understand your reasoning for not making them actual classes.
Classes almost never have requirements, Paladin and Monk excluded.
I believe the Barbarian belongs in that exclusion group, yes?
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Classes almost never have requirements, Paladin and Monk excluded.I believe the Barbarian belongs in that exclusion group, yes?
I didn't mention them cause they don't really have a requirement, it is more like a restriction if you get what I mean. I see a requirement as a must be rather than a can't be.
Paladins have to be Lawful Good, 1 alignment possibility.
Monks have to be Lawful, 3 alignment possibilities.
Barbarians just can't be Lawful, 6 alignment possibilities.
A cleric could be be placed in the "requirement" group though, since they have to be within one step of their deity. Which can range from 3 alignment possibilities to 5 alignment possibilities. Though you could just pick a deity that goes with your alignment rather than the other way.
Classes almost never have requirements, Paladin and Monk excluded.I believe the Barbarian belongs in that exclusion group, yes?
And the Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Inquisitor.
Or if you only count "must be" as a requirement just add Inquisitor, Cleric, and Druid.
So I have a question. You keep saying that the archetypes are like classes but without the requirements. My question is what do you mean by this? Classes almost never have requirements, Paladin and Monk excluded. The only "classes" that have regular requirements are Prestige Classes and in Modern, Advanced Classes.
My wonder is why you decided to make them "archetypes" when:
1: They are effectively actual classes in there own right.
2: They are nothing like archetypes in Pathfinder.
3: Classes almost never have requirements.I just don't understand your reasoning for not making them actual classes.
I think the intent is more important than the wording.
I do see your point though and I would have called them classes since that is what they are to me. I don't think anyone is going with the modern hero class without an "archetype". I don't seen the benefit in doing so.It probably saved them a lot of space though instead of typing up a chart for each archtype. The did the modern hero class, and the archetypes kind of over ride it.
I am sure someone here can do the charts if that was the issue though.
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Classes almost never have requirements, Paladin and Monk excluded.I believe the Barbarian belongs in that exclusion group, yes?And the Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Inquisitor.
Or if you only count "must be" as a requirement just add Inquisitor, Cleric, and Druid.
Bards can be any alignment, druids are any neutral which gives 5 alignment choices, and the inquisitor is the same as the cleric (see above).
None of those really make me think requirement since I can still play the character in any way that I want without any restrictions. Where a paladin I have to be lawful good no questions asked, and a monk I have to be lawful (which is only 3 alignment choices).
I see requirements as:
You must have this feat/skill.
You must be this level.
You must be this alignment.
Not so much as you can choose from these 6 out of 9 options, or you are restricted to 3 of these but which 3 depends on another choice that allows any choice.
But none the less I don't really see alignment as a requirement since most still give you the choice of many different options.
I guess, I should have said “prestige classes”.
One issue we always had with d20 Modern is that you had to start with a base class.
Archetypes seemed to fit well with the single class.
The part I find odd is the fact your class skills are determined by your background choice(s).
I can work with it, tho. I'm finishing up a test-build character right now.
The part I find odd is the fact your class skills are determined by your background choice(s).
I can work with it, tho. I'm finishing up a test-build character right now.
i think i see a Daredevil in our future :)
I have no idea how you could possibly think that, sir!
(gigglesnort)
Building a better Hero, part I
So I wanted to stat up a Modern Hero, trying to get a feel for the system. I've been looking over the character generation options and already had a good idea of what I wanted before sitting down with my first blank character sheet. I wanted to make a stereotypical “Good Ole Boy” from the Deep South.
He's a human, so he'll have a human bonus feat and a starting character feat, a +2 to the attribute of his choice, and +1 skill point per level.
For the sake of simplicity, I used the Heroic Array from p451 of the Core Rulebook – 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. I assigned them thus:
STR: 10 DEX: 17*(+3) CON: 13(+1) INT: 14(+1) WIS: 8(-1) CHA: 12(+1)
*- includes +2 bonus for being human
I've decided (obviously) his Action Points are tied to his DEX score, so at 1 + DEX mod + ½ character level, he has 4 to start with.
After looking at the first 65 pages of the rules, it seems to me the proper place to go next is Background. My first choice was Rural. That netted him Acrobatics, Climb, Craft (all), Handle Animal, Operate Transport, Ride, Survival, & Swim for class skills. It also gives him Brawl and Martial Weapon Proficiency (all) as bonus feats.
That's a pretty good start. Now, down here, we have a pretty strong culture of military service. I could go with the Soldier Archetype, but I've got something else in mind. The Military background would be far more applicable. But to do that, he needs the “Extra Background” feat. To accomplish that, I look to the Difficulties. What is there that fits into this stereotype? Ah-ha! “Crude” seems tailor-made for this. That nets him an extra Talent. I cashed this in for the “Extra Feat” Talent. The feat I chose was the “Extra Background” feat. For his second background, I gave him “Military.”
From the “Military” background, he picks up Climb, Craft (explosives), Knowledge (tactics), Operate Transport, Profession (sailor & soldier), Stealth, Survival, and Swim. For bonus feats, he picks up Brawl, Combat Martial Arts, Martial Weapon Proficiency (all), and Armor Proficiency (light). As you can see, he ends up with some overlap between the backgrounds.
Let's move on to picking his Archetype. I'm sure no one saw “Daredevil” coming! dang, busted by Chris! (just like no one hears “Dixie” playing in the background right...?) This Archetype gives him 5 + Int bonus skill points, a d8 HD, medium BAB, medium Fort save progression, fast Reflex save progression, and slow Will save progression. (I had to dig into the MSRD to find the medium save progression.) He doesn't pick up any bonus feats or skills. For the Talent all Modern Heroes pick up at 1st level, I'm giving him “Cross-training: Swindler.” Now, whenever he picks a Training ability, he can choose from those listed under Daredevil and Swindler.
For his beginning-character feat, he gets Point-Blank Shot. For his human feat, he gets Far Shot. Years of hunting everything from squirrels to white-tail deer have honed his skills with firearms – and having a former Marine infantryman for a daddy didn't hurt!
In part II, I'll assign Bobby-Joe Hudson's skill ranks and buy equipment.
Yeah, I'd like to see an actual posted stat block using certain examples. Be interesting to see how that comes out when comparing to what we're familiar with D20 Modern and PFRPG.
I have no idea how you could possibly think that, sir!
(gigglesnort)LOL :)
Building a better Hero, part I
Looks like you have a very good grasp of the Character Build...
And what a great Name for your guy... i think i know someone by that name that lives down the street from me :) and i think he has the same Wisdom Score LOL!
Yeah, I'd like to see an actual posted stat block using certain examples. Be interesting to see how that comes out when comparing to what we're familiar with D20 Modern and PFRPG.
Good idea Urizen... i will see what i can do...
Well to give it something unique, I guess.
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I for one am really starting to dig the feel of this system.
Having all the components in front of you kind of presents "information vaporlock," where the reader gets overwhelmed with the myriad of options.
After that first shock, though, the ability to make a "Wicked Smart, not too strong Rifleman/Explosives Expert" or a "Tough As Nails, Dumb as a Brick Knife Fighting Thug" with the same mechanics really appeals to me.
Too much Fallout in my brain, perhaps, but having everyone use the same "chassis" for PC and just modify the bits they like just seems "normal."
Hopefully, I can get some stat blocks up later. If so, I should be able to run my players through a short "familiarization" game on Sunday.
I'm thinking:
Da Boss; Charismatic, Likable, and knowledgeable of tactics/people. Not the best at anything, but he can get stuff done.
Da Sneak; Stealthy, witty, and craven, he'll scout out the enemies and scamper on back to tell you all about them.
Da Sniper; Quiet, intense, and very very lethal with his Rifle Evangeline. Just don't ask to borrow his stuff.
Da Brick; None to bright, but quick, strong, and loyal, he and violent conflict seem to go hand in hand.
Doc; Medic/Psychotherapist/Drug-Dealer, Doc knows what his team needs, and sees to it. He doesn't ask questions, so long as you get your job done.
I'm thinking:Da Boss; Charismatic, Likable, and knowledgeable of tactics/people. Not the best at anything, but he can get stuff done.
Da Sneak; Stealthy, witty, and craven, he'll scout out the enemies and scamper on back to tell you all about them.
Da Sniper; Quiet, intense, and very very lethal with his Rifle Evangeline. Just don't ask to borrow his stuff.
Da Brick; None to bright, but quick, strong, and loyal, he and violent conflict seem to go hand in hand.
Doc; Medic/Psychotherapist/Drug-Dealer, Doc knows what his team needs, and sees to it. He doesn't ask questions, so long as you get your job done.
LOL its like the A-Team... you need to make the Doc Crazie a little and you got it :)
I Like this team.|
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Maybe we should get a team together and make a wiki (or something) with NPCs built for other GMs. Kind of like what they have in the back of the d20 Modern book, key archetypes like thug, soldier, doctor, spy, etc. I can see one of the early problems with the system is that everyone has to build NPCs right now, and that can be overwhelming when there are no pregen monsters or anything to run your players with during that time.
Heh - I pull the Dukes of Hazzard, he pulls the A-Team.
you need to make the Doc Crazie
I resemble that!!
:D@PH: I agree with the "info-vaporlock"! *To me,* the rules could use some more fluff and examples to help ease into the system. @GRC crew: I know, I can hear ya's - trying to keep the page-count down. Again, *to me,* that's not an issue. I'll print out the sections I want in hardcopy and refer to other stuff on the computer as needed.
Of course, I also have my own color laser printer for tasks like this.
@Sg: Glad my sample char walk-thru has been beneficial. Now that my wife and I are back from our walk, I need to finish him up with skill ranks and gear, then create an official stat-block.
@GRC team - :thumbsup: Once I finish Billy Joe, I'll move on to equipment et al. Is there a way to put a discussion group or forum on your facebook page or website?
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Maybe we should get a team together and make a wiki (or something) with NPCs built for other GMs. Kind of like what they have in the back of the d20 Modern book, key archetypes like thug, soldier, doctor, spy, etc. I can see one of the early problems with the system is that everyone has to build NPCs right now, and that can be overwhelming when there are no pregen monsters or anything to run your players with during that time.
Absolutely.
As I think on this more and more, it seems like a Post-Apocalyptic, Near-Future, Survival-Horror style game is headed my players' way.
There's no reason not to share some of that with you beautiful people.
I'm all for a collaborative effort on busting out some high-need NPCs!
Wonderment - D20 Modern had one way of handling "ordinaries." Pathfinder has specific NPC classes. How does Modern Heroes intend to handle mook NPCs? Major NPCs should be hand-built like a PC, imo. But mooks?
We agree with the "info-vaporlock", lol
Our editor is going through the pdf and we will break it up in sections and add "some" art, just to break it up some.
I know the page count goes up and that $ if any want to print it, but we will also have the printer friendly version.
We are looking around Friday with the new edits, hopefully that will get most of the bugs out.
BTW - Once we have the pdf squared away, we will work on the website and forums, until then, I think Facebook can handle a lot of that.
Got the stat blocks... for soldier (modern heroes) vs. fighter (PF)...
Male Human Modern Hero (Soldier) 1
NN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +2
--------------------
DEFENSE
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 11 (+2 Dex)
hp 11 (1d10+1)
Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +1
DR 3
--------------------
OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Greatsword +5 (2d6+4/19-20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +5 (1d6+3/20/x2)
Ranged HK PSG1 7.62mm sniper rifle +5 (2d10+3/19-20/x3)
--------------------
STATISTICS
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +6; CMD 17
Feats Brawl, Combat Martial Arts, Elusive Target, Improved Initiative
Skills Acrobatics +0, Climb +1, Craft: Explosives +4, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Knowledge: Tactics +4,
Operate Transport +6, Perception +2, Profession: Soldier +5, Ride +0, Stealth +4, Survival +5, Swim +1
Languages Common, Other Language
SQ Action Points: Strength, Critical Strike (Ex), Defensive Position (Ex), Military, Mute, Unattractive
Combat Gear Greatsword, HK PSG1 7.62mm sniper rifle, Undercover Vest; Other Gear Backpack, License: Military, Licensed
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TRACKED RESOURCES
Action Points: Strength - 4/4
Reputation - 1/1
Wealth - 6/6
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
Action Points: Strength
Critical Strike (Ex) This aid provides a +1 competence bonus on damage checks.
Damage Reduction (3/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Defensive Position (Ex) 1 Action Point for +2 to AC & Reflex when having cover.
Hero Points (1) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Military Covers any of the branches of the armed forces
Mute You cannot speak. You cannot use any ability that requires you to speak.
Unattractive -8 to all Charisma based checks when someone can see you
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Male Human Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter) 1
NN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hero Points 1
Init +6; Senses Perception +1
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DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 13, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 11 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Greatsword +5 (2d6+4/19-20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +4 (1d3+3/20/x2)
Ranged Longbow, Comp. (Str +0) +3 (1d8/20/x3)
--------------------
STATISTICS
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats Dodge, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Skills Climb +6, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Intimidate +3, Ride +1, Stealth +1, Survival +5, Swim +2
Languages Common
SQ Hero Points (1)
Combat Gear Greatsword, Longbow, Comp. (Str +0), Studded Leather;
Bards can be any alignment.
Hey you're right, I never noticed that. I was still assuming they couldn't be lawful.