I always thought that you could feint at range.
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Feint
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
When feinting against a nonhumanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Feinting as a Move Action: With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action.
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But I saw that Fighter (Archer) has feint as one of the ranged combat maneuvers that they can select. Does this mean that you can't normally feint at range or that by taking that option the archer can feint as a move action (or as part of an attack action)?
But I saw that Fighter (Archer) has feint as one of the ranged combat maneuvers that they can select. Does this mean that you can't normally feint at range or that by taking that option the archer can feint as a move action (or as part of an attack action)?
Yes and no.
The quote you added, states that the target loses his Dex to AC against your next 'melee' attack. As such while a feint can be done at a range, it wouldn't give you anything unless you are planning to charge him.
But it can be done at range, if you wish. And if you have Greater Feint there could be more use of it, as you could assist your allies at a range, as well as get one attack in (after using your move action to feint).
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The section about Feint in the CRB on page 90 reads as follows:
"You can use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be denied his Dexterity bonus to his AC against your next attack. The DC of this check is equal to 10+ your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense motive, the DC is instead equal to 10+ your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. For more information on feinting in combat, see Chapter 8.
No mention there of requiring a melee attack. HOWEVER... Chapter 8's section on feinting does explicitly refer to a melee attack. Which probably accounts for the confusion.
Mmmh... So is it possible to feint at range and gain the benefit of it at range or not ? :)
Yes you can feint at range. Think of it like a Quarter back doing a Pump fake.
...but, the benefits of feinting only apply to melee attacks?
Not at all...
Here is how it works
Feint Standard action- You feint and then your next attack you get to shoot him with your bow...
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There is no limit to range or type of attack...
But, in chapter 8 under Feint it specifically says that if your feint attempt is successful then your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus against your next melee attack.
Am I reading this wrong?
No you're not, the other guy is.
Feint
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
But, in chapter 8 under Feint it specifically says that if your feint attempt is successful then your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus against your next melee attack.
Am I reading this wrong?
No, that's correct. Feint denies dex for your next melee attack if it's made on or before your next turn.
With Greater Feint he also loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn. I think the intent of this is for your allies to be able to take advantage of it, but it's not really clear. It's also not really clear if the bonus applies to all attacks, or only melee attacks.
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Read the whole thread before you jump in...
Yes, the archer can use feint with a bow. That doesn't change what feint does.
The intent is quite possibly that an archer can use trick shot to deny the opponent dex against his next ranged attack, but it doesn't actually say that.
-edit-
The intent is for trick shot to allow feint to deny dex for ranged attacks.
I wrote the APG fighter archetypes, and the implication I intended to convey was that you could both perform the feint and BENEFIT from the feint with your bow. It would seem a little silly to let them do the feint but not get any advantage from it, but if the RAW seems overly ambiguous and you're looking for RAI that's it.
Dave, Read the whole thread before you jump in...
This is whole thing being talked about
Trick Shot (Ex)
At 3rd level, an archer can choose one of the following combat maneuvers or actions: disarm, feint, or sunder. He can perform this action with a bow against any target within 30 feet, with a –4 penalty to his CMB. Every four levels beyond 3rd, he may choose an additional trick shot to learn. These maneuvers use up arrows as normal.
At 11th level, he may also choose from the following combat maneuvers: bull rush, grapple, trip. A target grappled by an arrow can break free by destroying the archer’s arrow (hardness 5, hit points 1, break DC 13) or with an Escape Artist or CMB check (against the archer’s CMD –4).
This ability replaces Armor Training 1, 2, 3, and 4.
I stand corrected on the range though
The original poster asked:
"Does this mean that you can't normally feint at range or that by taking that option the archer can feint as a move action (or as part of an attack action)?"
This whole thing is about whether or not you can feint at range.
It appears that you may be able to feint at range but your ranged attack will not gain the benefits of a feint unless you are a 3rd level Fighter (archer).
In my opinion the designers intent is for a feint to apply to adjacent melee combatants because feinting implicitly involves close combat manueveers. However feinting at range to benefit a charge attack appeals to me, but I might have to put a 30 ft. limit on it if I were to allow it at all.
That archer ability implies that without it you cannot feint at range. I always assumed that you have to at least be able to reach them with a weapon to feint them, since otherwise you could have an invisible dude with a spyglass 1000' away greater feinting twice a round.
There are certain classes that can do it. But it is limited to range focus classes
Fighter (Archer)
Ranger
Gunslinger
Arcane Slinger has a few ways of doing it too
Can you cite the abilities you're referring to?
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A little off-topic story, but I just have to share it.
I just had to laugh, but, hey, mis-communication happens all the time. I see now that Reecy was referring to feinting at range as a special feature of a class archetype, whereas I was referring to feinting in general.
So, to the original re-poster (Loengrin), NO you cannot feint at range, but, YES you can feint at range if you have a class feature that specifically allows you to do so and your ranged attack will gain the benefits of that feint.
So, to the original re-poster (Loengrin), NO you cannot feint at range, but, YES you can feint at range if you have a class feature that specifically allows you to do so and your ranged attack will gain the benefits of that feint.
Well, in fact I was looking for both answer, so thank you, I think that's how I will rule even if by RAW nothing stop you from feinting at 1000' range as said (but you have to do a melee attack to profit from it)... ;)
There is another mistake. Untill you have greater feint, the oponent looses his DEX only against YOUR attacks. Ranged or not doesn´t matter here.
Also feinting at range and using a ranged weapon instead of a melee weapon to make use of it is not the same thing. No special abilities or feats = no comabt maneuvers with ranged weapons.
