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I'm looking for general ideas, here, just to see what's out there.
I've got a L1 half-orc Aberrant Sorcerer, starting spells Shield and Chill Touch. Originally planning a straight Sorcerer progression, as a reesult of RP, his second level was as a Bones Oracle, with the Bleeding Wounds revelation (L1 spells Cure Light, Inflict Light, Divine Favor).
It's not optimal right out of the gate, I know. But, tough, that's what we're working with.
How would you advance this?
Hoo boy. I'm hesitant to post anything here cause my sorcerer/oracle advice (which is what I'm currently playing myself) usually falls on deaf ears; most posters on these boards being convinced that it's a terrible combo.
Let me ask you, what sources is your GM allowing in your campaign?
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Hoo boy. I'm hesitant to post anything here cause my sorcerer/oracle advice (which is what I'm currently playing myself) usually falls on deaf ears; most posters on these boards being convinced that it's a terrible combo.
Let me ask you, what sources is your GM allowing in your campaign?
Personally, I reccomend Mystic Theurge. Eventually, anyway. A lot of people will say it's less than ideal (true), but I still think it's the best way to go for a Sorcerer/Oracle. With it, you can eventually get 7th level spells as both a Sorcerer and Oracle, and 8th level spells in one of them by 20th. That's really not bad at all. Your non-spellcasting prowess will fall behind, but eh. Spells are really good.
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It's simple you don't.
You can play one but it will never be optimal. I have played a cleric/wizard to mystic thurgest. But I never made it as a optimized character. It was very under powered to keap it in line with the other players at the table. This was one of the few times I was being nice to the DM and other players.
I second the Mystic Theurge suggestion. Slow character to start, but they really take off later.
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It's simple you don't.
Okay everybody, I think we all get that it's an inherently unoptimized choice. That's very clear, but 'don't do it' isn't useful advice when it's already happened (which it has).
Constructive advice on how to make the character as effective as possible within the limits of Sorcerer/Oracle would seem to be the way to go, here.
Though I guess technically, she could just keep the level of Sorcerer and go straight Oracle for the other 19 (or vice versa), but that honestly doesn't sound like what she's looking for.
I think we all get that it's an inherently unoptimized choice. That's very clear
I politely disagree. Depending on the material allowed it can prove to be a great combo given time.
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Though I guess technically, she could just keep the level of Sorcerer and go straight Oracle for the other 19 (or vice versa), but that honestly doesn't sound like what she's looking for.
I could do that, sure, but is that the best way? I just want your thoughts.
Let me ask you, what sources is your GM allowing in your campaign?
I can use the CR and the APG. Is there something in another source you're thinking of? And please! I'd love to hear your advice!
Given what you have so far, I would go with one level of oracle and the rest of the levels = sorcerer.
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Give the full picture?What's the rest of the party? What roles are you entrusted to cover for them?
What's the roleplaying reason for the bones oracle?
What curse did you go with?
Do you have retraining rules? (Say to swap out a sorcerer or oracle spell known?)
-James
There's no set party (like Pathfinder Chronicles). The Bones Oracle was because he got really close with a Blood Goddess (and there was no Blood Mystery). He has the Haunted curse, and I don't think there is any retraining.
Go lich -- as soon as you possibly can.
Though I guess technically, she could just keep the level of Sorcerer and go straight Oracle for the other 19 (or vice versa), but that honestly doesn't sound like what she's looking for.I could do that, sure, but is that the best way? I just want your thoughts.
The most effective plan is to take the rest of your levels as one or the other, and treat the other as a one-level dip to be able to use all the wands and scrolls from the other class.
The more interesting choice is to go for Mystic Theruge. You'll never be as powerful as a pure caster, but you'll be far more versatile. If you can find ways to stack caster level, it'll help. An Orange Ioun stone will be your best friend, and if your GM will let you take a feat to boost your caster level (I forget the source, but it's something like "Gain +2 caster level in one class, up to your current hit dice"). Losing the spell levels is not nearly as bad as being 4 levels behind in caster level.
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I had similar questions a while back for a aberrant sorc/heavens oracle character.
If you're really wanting to get the flavorful stuff from both classes(bloodline and mysteries), but want to get high level spells for at least one of those classes, lopsiding sorcerer over oracle rather than going mystic theurge could work. The feats that let you get extra Oracle mysteries really helps there, while your sorcerer levels keep your bloodline goodies coming. The downside of course is that you still have to have the level requirements for a mystery to take it with that feat, but you should be able to snatch quite a few.
I can use the CR and the APG. Is there something in another source you're thinking of? And please! I'd love to hear your advice!
Given those limitations, I'd likely counsel against going Mystic Theurge (at odds with my own character oddly enough). Being forced to meet the prerequisites for the prestige class, you'd find yourself still casting 2nd level divine and arcane spells until you finally reach 9 level (when other casters would otherwise be tossing around 4th or 5th level spells). Certainly both the sorcerer and oracle classes offer other fun abilities but as a duel caster, spells are your bread & butter. Casting the same assortment of cantrips, orisons, 1st and 2nd level spells until 9th level will get tedious rather quickly I assure you. Certainly by the time you'd enter Mystic Theurge and hit your teen levels you'd start to see the silver lining; but by then you'd already be on the down slope of the campaign.
If you're stuck with limited game material, I'd suggest sticking to a one level dip in oracle and continuing on as a straight sorcerer. The main benefits you'll continue to enjoy from the oracle class will be access to revelations and clerical spell list. You'll be able to improve on your oracle's base abilities (while continuing to advance as a sorcerer) by using divine scrolls, wands and by gaining additional revelations via the Extra Revelation feat (from the APG) which you can take over and over or via a ring of revelations (also from the APG). With enough ranks in Use Magic Device, you could even use a Ring of Revelation made with the Revelation from another mystery (I suggest Sidestep Secret from the Lore mystery). In addition, try and acquire the Magical Knack trait (from the APG) to apply to your sorcerer class or even try and talk your GM into letting you take it twice; once for each base class.
Now, if you can talk your GM into allowing some 3.5 source material then I'd instead recommend trying your hand at Mystic Theurge. The build is not for the faint of heart however since it requires two feats and a trait to make it really viable. Here's how it works:
The key to not sucking is to qualify for Mystic Theurge early by taking the Alternate Source Spell metamagic feat from Dragon Magazine 325, page 61. It allows you to change the nature of the spells you cast from arcane to divine or vice versa.
[Metamagic]
You can prepare any of your spells as either divine or arcane.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast both divine and arcane spells.
Benefit: You can choose to prepare any of your divine spells
as arcane spells or any of your arcane spells as divine spells.
An alternative-sourced spell uses up a spell slot from the class
that normally grants the spell. such a spell is prepared normally.
An alternative-sourced spell is cast as if your caster level were
1 level lower. For example, a 1st level cleric/6th level wizard
casts a divine fireball as a 5th level wizard.
So, with it, one can take four levels of sorcerer and one level of oracle and, with the feat, convert his second level arcane spells into divine spells; thereby meeting the prerequisite for Mystic Theurge. And for those who'd bemoan the fact that Alternate Source Spell isn't a core Pathfinder feat, I'd say that it's official 3.5 material published by the fine folks at Paizo. ;)
Add to that the Practiced Spellcaster feat (from Complete Arcane, page 82), applied to your oracle class level along along with Pathfinder's own Magical Knack trait, applied to your sorcerer levels, and you end up with something resembling my character: a Sor 4 / Ora 1 / MyT 1 with full caster levels in both progressions. Again, taking the Extra Revelations feat will allow you to continue acquiring revelations from your mystery if desired.
That's my ¢2.
Being forced to meet the prerequisites for the prestige class, you'd find yourself still casting 2nd level divine and arcane spells until you finally reach 9 level (when other casters would otherwise be tossing around 4th or 5th level spells).
As bad as waiting until 9th for 3rd level spells is, for a sorcerer/oracle MT you'd actually wait until 10th.
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Advice on what your playing is one thing. Advice on optimiztion is not the same.
With what your playing your best choice is to stick with one. MT is a horable way to go for how you started. You will be Sorcerer4/Oracle4 befor your fist level of MT. And your first level 3 spell will not be untill level 10.
The Ring of Revelations can only give you revelations from your mystery. You can not get revelations from other mysterys from it. I wold love it if that was not the case, but I can see why they did it. Now if your going oracle it's worth it for some of the revelations. If your going sorcerer. It's a pice of junk. Almost all revelations are base on level of oracle for effect.
Feets will be the same. No mater what you do your a spontanous caster.
Over all staying sorcerer from this point on is your best option. The only down side is you get your highest level spell one level later. On the plus side you get to use cure wands with 0 fail.
I can use the CR and the APG. Is there something in another source you're thinking of? And please! I'd love to hear your advice!Given those limitations, I'd likely counsel against going Mystic Theurge (at odds with my own character oddly enough). Being forced to meet the prerequisites for the prestige class, you'd find yourself still casting 2nd level divine and arcane spells until you finally reach 9 level (when other casters would otherwise be tossing around 4th or 5th level spells). Certainly both the sorcerer and oracle classes offer other fun abilities but as a duel caster, spells are your bread & butter. Casting the same assortment of cantrips, orisons, 1st and 2nd level spells until 9th level will get tedious rather quickly I assure you. Certainly by the time you'd enter Mystic Theurge and hit your teen levels you'd start to see the silver lining; but by then you'd already be on the down slope of the campaign.
If you're stuck with limited game material, I'd suggest sticking to a one level dip in oracle and continuing on as a straight sorcerer. The main benefits you'll continue to enjoy from the oracle class will be access to revelations and clerical spell list. You'll be able to improve on your oracle's base abilities (while continuing to advance as a sorcerer) by using divine scrolls, wands and by gaining additional revelations via the Extra Revelation feat (from the APG) which you can take over and over or via a ring of revelations (also from the APG). With enough ranks in Use Magic Device, you could even use a Ring of Revelation made with the Revelation from another mystery (I suggest Sidestep Secret from the Lore mystery). In addition, try and acquire the Magical Knack trait (from the APG) to apply to your sorcerer class or even try and talk your GM into letting you take it twice; once for each base class.
Now, if you can talk your GM into allowing some 3.5 source material then I'd instead recommend trying your hand at Mystic Theurge. The build is not for the faint...
Probably the best solution you could hope for.
The Ring of Revelations can only give you revelations from your mystery. You can not get revelations from other mysterys from it.
Unless you you take advantage of your character's high Charisma and Use Magic Device class skill to circumvent that limitation.
Almost all revelations are base on level of oracle for effect.
Many certainly are, but not all; and that's important. One simply has to be judicious in picking revelations that will be advantageous with even a single level of oracle.
That approach to tailoring your character is crucial when planning a multiclass character; especially when aiming for a prestige class like Mystic Theurge. Knowing that you'll only ever have 1 level of oracle and 4 levels of sorcerer should be taken into account when selecting your bloodline, mystery and curse. For instance, the bonus class skills granted by each class are suddenly very important, while the their list of bonus spells known can be largely ignored.
Having played a MT before, my advice is: Don't. At early levels, it was a lot of fun. I was slinging 1st level spells like a wizard slings cantrips. By level 7 the party Wizard was casting 4th level spells, while I was stuck with exactly 1 2nd level spell. Even the Bard could cast better than me. I could still sling 1st level spells, but by this time they almost felt like cantrips.
The only way I've seen that might make this class not suck at mid levels is to talk your DM into letting you start taking MT levels early.
If you can't talk your DM into letting you start taking MT at Sor 2/Ora 2 or Ora 4/Sor 1, then I would pick one class to advance.
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If you can't talk your DM into letting you start taking MT at Sor 2/Ora 2 or Ora 4/Sor 1, then I would pick one class to advance.
This is very true, with the spontaneous casters you can't get MT until 9th level, you're still casing 2nd level spells and the wiz is casting 5th level. MT takes to much of a hit on levels and the fast you're missing out on class features hurts too much, It's almost work being sor10,ora10 and getting 10th class features of the two that sor4,ora4, MT12 and having only 4th level class features (and disabilities for the ora). If there were feats to multiclass and grow the class features that would even things out
If you want to play a caster, don't multiclass. - With the possible exception of Mystic Theurge builds.
If you want to build a melee or ranged combat character with a ton of utility and independence, then multiclassing can be great.
But in that case you want to preserve your BAB and to reduce your vital attributes to a number that you can comfortably boost.
I am playing around with a concept myself, where I dip into Paladin to get CHA to all saves.
Then Lore Oracle to move AC and Reflex Saves to be CHA based.
From here the build is obviously melee something, since WIS and DEX and CON are effectively irrelevant, as is INT really. Boosting STR and CHA alone can still be a viable build.
Personally I would make the character broader and not dump all other attributes.
Taking Fighter levels for the feats and maybe sprinkling a bit of Ranger for more nice tricks. - Or going Barbarian with a splash of Rogue to gain Uncanny Dodge and tons of utility.
The goal of this build would be a passably fearsome melee combatant with loads of tricks in his sleeve. Whatever you do, preserve your total BAB, you want minimum 16 over your career, preferably more though sometimes a dip can give bonuses to hit that are not BAB but help to compensate.
Also keep in mind that a Fighter will have +25 to hit before feats and attributes @ 20. Most Medium BAB characters only get +15 leaving them a full +10 to hit in the dust.
I had a look at Sorc, but going that way means no armor and going above 2nd level really hurts your BAB. I couldn't get it to fit for a multiclasser.
The kind of build I'm describing here does not try to target the enemy with spells. Spells would be chosen for buffing or altering the battlespace, avoiding spells with saves. - Rays can be good as a bit of Ranged option, but even these will only be as a backup.
By playing a MT, you selfishly hurt all of your teammates. A sorcerer 3/oracle 2 is trying to play in 5th level adventures, but he's really a 3rd level sorcerer cohort who in turn has a 2nd level oracle cohort who has no actions of his own. As a result, the rest of the party has to work overtime keeping you alive, and you contribute zilch to the party success: your friend the wizard is pitching fireballs, and you STILL haven't progressed beyond a 1st-level burning hands spell. Sooner or later the other party members will get tired of babysitting you and will murder you in your sleep.
This is very true, with the spontaneous casters you can't get MT until 9th level, you're still casing 2nd level spells and the wiz is casting 5th level. MT takes to much of a hit on levels and the fast you're missing out on class features hurts too much, It's almost work being sor10,ora10 and getting 10th class features of the two that sor4,ora4, MT12 and having only 4th level class features (and disabilities for the ora). If there were feats to multiclass and grow the class features that would even things out
If you can't talk your DM into letting you start taking MT at Sor 2/Ora 2 or Ora 4/Sor 1, then I would pick one class to advance.
This is where caster level could come in - if you were able to cast 2nd level spells from both classes as a 8th level caster, you wouldn't be nearly as far behind a single-classed character as if you were still a 4th level caster. Sure, you don't have fireball or cone of cold, but the spells you do have are just as effective as they would be if the single-class caster cast them, and you have far more versatility in terms of selection. I'm not saying you're equal to them - just that you're much closer than you would be under RAW.
This is where caster level could come in - if you were able to cast 2nd level spells from both classes as a 8th level caster, you wouldn't be nearly as far behind a single-classed character as if you were still a 4th level caster. Sure, you don't have fireball or cone of cold, but the spells you do have are just as effective as they would be if the single-class caster cast them, and you have far more versatility in terms of selection. I'm not saying you're equal to them - just that you're much closer than you would be under RAW.This is very true, with the spontaneous casters you can't get MT until 9th level, you're still casing 2nd level spells and the wiz is casting 5th level. MT takes to much of a hit on levels and the fast you're missing out on class features hurts too much, It's almost work being sor10,ora10 and getting 10th class features of the two that sor4,ora4, MT12 and having only 4th level class features (and disabilities for the ora). If there were feats to multiclass and grow the class features that would even things out
If you can't talk your DM into letting you start taking MT at Sor 2/Ora 2 or Ora 4/Sor 1, then I would pick one class to advance.
In practice, I found I actually had less versatility than the Wizard. At 7th level, the Wizard could cast 18 different spells ranging from 1st to 4th level. I could cast 8 different 1st spells (albeit from two class lists) and only 1 2nd level spell. More often than not, I found that the Wizard had the right spell (or at least a better spell) for the job, and I didn't. To top it off, I actually had FEWER total spell slots than the Wizard!
At 7th level, the Wizard could cast 18 different spells ranging from 1st to 4th level. I could cast 8 different 1st spells (albeit from two class lists) and only 1 2nd level spell. More often than not, I found that the Wizard had the right spell (or at least a better spell) for the job, and I didn't. To top it off, I actually had FEWER total spell slots than the Wizard!
A mystic theurge, more than most other characters, requires proper planning. Without more information on ability scores and progression, I can only say that you probably didn't plan properly to take full advantage (especially if you could only cast one 2nd-level spell).
A wizard (specialist) 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 1 should have 16+ Int and 16+ Wis (possible even with a 15-point buy, including racial bonus(es) and the +1 advancement at 4th character level). That gives you 4+1 1st and 3+1 2nd for wizard (specialist) as well as 4+1 1st and 3+1 2nd for cleric, a total of 18 spells. A wizard (specialist) 7 or cleric 7 with 18 in their casting score would have 5+1 1st, 4+1 2nd, 3+1 3rd, and 2+1 4th, a total of 18 spells.
Last year I started a discussion topic on some ways to properly develop a mystic theurge:
Some ground rules:
This is NOT a comparison between the mystic theurge and a single classed cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard. If your main complaint is that the mystic theurge isn't as "powerful" as a single classed caster in that class's strength, then you're missing the point behind the concept of the mystic theurge, which is versatility.
The discussion is on the mystic theurge using the official Pathfinder RPG rules, 15 Point Buy, as documented in the Core Rulebook and associated resources (download page). If you deviate from the official rules (for example, restrict availability/crafting of magic items, copying spells, and/or change the wealth by level guidelines, use 3.5 or other rule variants, etc.), please specify exactly how you deviate and what effect that deviation has on characters. Note that I consider the biggest downfall to the mystic theurge (as with any multiclassed caster) the hit in caster level, so I use traits and always choose Magical Knack ("... Pick a class when you gain this trait--your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't increase your caster level higher than your current Hit Dice.")
This is not a CharOps discussion, so don't bash a particular "build" simply because it's not as "efficient/powerful" as possible. The main focus is a character that can contribute in most situations and shine in at least a few (i.e, "viable"), not simply maximizing effectiveness in a single activity. In particular, the characters I'm including to start the discussion are developed from my character concepts and take into account progression from 1st level, as well as preparing for future progression based on the concept.
Dwarf Cleric (Torag) 3/Transmuter 3
14 Str (13 +1 enhancement), 10 Dex, 14 Con (12 +2 race), 15 Int (14 +1 advancement), 16 Wis (14 +2 race), 8 Cha (10 -2 race)
Racial Traits: +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha; Medium Size; Speed 20 ft, not reduced by medium/heavy armor/load; Darkvision 60 ft; +4 AC vs. Giants; +2 Appraise checks for metal/stone items; +1 attack bonus vs. Orcs, Goblinoids; +2 saves vs. poison, spells, spell-like abilities; +4 CMD vs. bull rush, trip; Stonecunning; Proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, warhammers; "Dwarven" weapons considered martial
Class Features: Aura (Good, Law), Channel Positive Energy (2d6, DC 10) 2x/day, Domains (Artifice- Artificer's Touch (CL 3 mending or 1d6+1) 6x/day; Earth- Acid Dart (1d6+1, 30 ft) 6x/day), Orisons, Spontaneous Casting (Cure); Arcane Bond (Ring), Arcane School- Transmutation (Opposition- Enchantment, Illusion; Physical Enhancement (+1 Str), Telekinetic Fist (1d4+1, 30 ft ranged touch) 5x/day), Cantrips, Scribe Scroll
Skills: Appraise 3 (+8/+10), Craft (Armor) 3 (+8), Craft (Weapons) 3 (+8), Knowledge (Arcana) 2 (+7), Knowledge (Engineering) 2 (+7), Knowledge (Religion) 2 (+7), Perception 6 (+9), Spellcraft 6 (+11)
Traits: Magical Knack (Cleric), one other trait
Feats: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Unarmed Attack, Scribe Scroll
Spells: Cleric (CL 5); 0-4, 1st-3+1, 2nd-2+1
Wizard (CL 3); 0-4, 1st-3+1, 2nd-2+1
Spellbook (all 0-level except Enchantment, Illusion; Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Magic Weapon, Shield, True Strike; Acid Arrow, Cat's Grace, False Life, Glitterdust; 135 gp)
Gear: TBD
Combat: TBD
Half-Elf Conjurer 3/Druid 3
10 Str, 13 Dex, 12 Con, 16 Int (14 +2 race), 15 Wis (14 +1 advancement), 10 Cha
Racial Traits: +2 to any one ability score (Int); Medium Size; Speed 30 ft; Low-Light Vision; Adaptability (Skill Focus as bonus feat); Elf Blood; Immune to magical sleep effects, +2 saves vs. Enchantment; +2 Perception checks; Multi-talented (Favored Classes- Druid, Wizard)
Class Features: Arcane Bond (Staff), Arcane School- Conjuration (Opposition- Illusion, Necromancy; Summoner's Charm (+1 round), Acid Dart (1d6+1, 30 ft) 6x/day), Cantrips, Scribe Scroll; Nature Bond (Plant Domain- Wooden Fist (+1 damage) 5 rounds/day), Nature Sense (+2 Knowledge (Nature), Survival checks), Orisons, Wild Empathy (+3), Woodland Stride, Trackless Step
Skills: Heal 3 (+8), Knowledge (Arcana) 6 (+12), Knowledge (Nature) 6 (+14), Knowledge (Planes) 3 (+9), Linguistics 3 (+9; Aquan, Auran, Common, Draconic, Druidic, Elven, Ignan, Sylvan, Terran), Perception 6 (+11), Spellcraft 6 (+12), Survival 3 (+11)
Traits: Magical Knack (Wizard), one other trait
Feats: Augment Summoning, Craft Wand, Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Survival), Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Spells: Wizard (CL 5); 0-4, 1st-3+1, 2nd-2+1
Spellbook (all 0-level except Illusion, Necromancy; Enlarge Person, Grease, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Sleep, Summon Monster I; Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Summon Monster II, Web; 120 gp)
Druid (CL 3); 0-4, 1st-3+1, 2nd-2+1
Gear: masterwork scimitar (315 gp), +1/masterwork quarterstaff (arcane bond item; 2,000 gp), masterwork alchemical silver dagger (322 gp), ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), scroll of mage armor (CL 3; 75 gp), scroll of lesser restoration (150 gp), wand of scorching ray (4,500 gp), wand of cure light wounds (750 gp), wand of magic missile (CL 3; 2250 gp), 1,518 gp
Combat: AC 13 (touch 12, flat-footed 12)*, 35.5 avg hp, +3 melee or +4 ranged, Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +8, Init +1, CMB +3, CMD 14
*- AC 18 (flat-footed 17) with barkskin and mage armor
Human Cleric (Asmodeus) 3/Enchanter 3
13 Str, 10 Dex, 12 Con, 15 Int (14 + 1 advancement), 16 Wis (14 + 2 race), 10 Cha
Racial Traits: +2 Any one score (Wis); Medium Size; Speed 30 ft; Bonus feat at 1st level; Skilled (+1 Skill Rank per level)
Class Features: Aura (Evil, Law), Channel Negative Energy (2d6, DC 11) 3x/day, Domains (Fire- Fire Bolt (1d6+1, 30 ft ranged touch) 6x/day; Trickery- Class Skills (Bluff, Disguise, Stealth), Copycat (3 rounds) 6x/day), Orisons, Spontaneous Casting (Inflict); Arcane Bond (mace), Arcane School- Enchantment (Opposition- Divination, Transmutation; Enchanting Smile (+2 enhancement to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Dazing Touch (3 HD) 5x/day), Cantrips, Scribe Scroll
Skills: Bluff 3 (+8), Diplomacy 3 (+8), Knowledge (Arcana) 5 (+10), Knowledge (Planes) 1 (+6), Knowledge (Religion) 6 (+11), Perception 6 (+9), Spellcraft 6 (+11)
Traits: Magical Knack (Cleric), one other trait
Feats: Craft Wand, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Scribe Scroll, Toughness
Spells: Cleric (CL 5); 0- 4, 1st- 3+1, 2nd- 2+1
Wizard (CL 3); 0- 4, 1st- 3+1, 2nd- 2+1
Spellbook (all 0-level except Divination, Transmutation; Charm Person, Chill Touch, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Sleep; Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Spectral Hand, Touch of Idiocy; 150 gp)
Gear: masterwork heavy crossbow (350 gp), +1 cold iron heavy mace (4,324 gp), masterwork alchemical silver dagger (322 gp), ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), scroll of chill touch (CL 3; 75 gp), scroll of mage armor (CL 3; 75 gp), scroll of lesser restoration (150 gp), scroll of spectral hand (150 gp), wand of cure light wounds (750 gp), wand of scorching ray (4,500 gp), 1,154 gp
Combat: AC 12 (touch 11, flat-footed 12)*, 42.5 avg hp, +4 melee or +3 ranged, Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +9, Init +0, CMB +4, CMD 14
*- AC 16 (flat-footed 16) with mage armor
Human Wizard 3/Cleric (Nethys) 3
8 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 16 Int (14 + 2 race), 15 Wis (14 + 1 advancement), 10 Cha
Racial Traits: +2 Any one score (Int); Medium Size; Speed 30 ft; Bonus feat at 1st level; Skilled (+1 Skill Rank per level)
Class Features: Arcane Bond (staff), Arcane School- Universalist (Hand of the Apprentice 6x/day), Cantrips, Scribe Scroll; Channel Positive Energy (2d6, DC 11) 3x/day, Domains (Magic- Hand of the Acolyte 5x/day; Protection- +1 resistance on all saves, Resistant Touch 5x/day), Orisons, Spontaneous Casting (Cure)
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 6 (+12), Knowledge (Planes) 3 (+9), Knowledge (Religion) 6 (+12), Linguistics 3* (+9), Perception 6 (+8), Spellcraft 6 (+14), Use Magic Device 6 (+8)
*- Abyssal, Auran, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Ignan, Terran
Traits: Magical Knack (Wizard), one other trait
Feats: Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Magical Aptitude, Point Blank Shot, Scribe Scroll
Spells: Wizard (CL 5); 0- 4, 1st- 3, 2nd- 2
Spellbook (all 0-level; Color Spray, Comprehend Languages, Grease, Enlarge Person, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep; Acid Arrow, Resist Energy, Web; 75 gp)
Cleric (CL 3); 0- 4, 1st- 3+1, 2nd- 2+1
Gear: masterwork light crossbow (335 gp), +1/masterwork quarterstaff (arcane bond item; 2,000 gp), masterwork alchemical silver dagger (322 gp), ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), scroll of mage armor (CL 3; 75 gp), scroll of lesser restoration (150 gp), wand of acid arrow (4,500 gp), wand of cure light wounds (750 gp), wand of magic missile (CL 3; 2250 gp), 1,543 gp
Combat: AC 14 (touch 13, flat-footed 12)*, 35.5 avg hp, +2 melee or +5 ranged, Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +9, Init +2, CMB +2, CMD 14
*- AC 18 (flat-footed 16) with mage armor
Some advice for mystic theruges in general:
1) Magical Knack is critical for a mystic theurge; the loss in caster level hurts worse than the loss in spell progression. You need to decide from the start which of your two caster classes you favor and plan accordingly. Also, minimize the levels taken outside of that favored class, mystic theurge, or another prestige class that grants full spell progression in that class (loremaster is usually a decent choice).
2) Maximize your versatility of spells. More than just about any other character, the mystic theurge benefits from taking the item crafting feats. Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand are almost must haves, with Craft Wondrous Item close behind. Spontaneous casters gain less of a benefit than prepared casters, since their versatility is more limited, but using Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand mainly for utility spells like buffs, healing, and simple attack spells lets you conserve your spell slots for more critical circumstances.
3) Mystic theurges work best in a party with other multiclassed primary casters (arcane archer, arcane trickster, eldritch knight, rage prophet, etc.) or without primary (9 spell level) casters. They also require, like most multiclassed casters, the understanding that you will not be as "powerful" in the middle levels as a single-classed primary caster from about 5th-10th character levels (sorcerer/oracle extends that "awkward" period even longer). This completely turns off may players, since that's the point where casters really start to dominate many games.
I hope the O.P. posts to let us know what she finally settled on.
Useful stuff
Like the OP, I based my MT off Sorcerer and Oracle for the Charisma synergy, hence the suckage. I think I had 18 CHA.
If I were to try it again I would definitely go Wiz/Clr.
Magical Knack is a must, too bad you can't take it twice. Practiced Spellcaster never made it to PF, correct?
Practiced Spellcaster never made it to PF, correct?
Pathfinder or not, Practiced Spellcaster is one of two crucial feats for pretty much any multiclassed spellcaster character. I've trouble imagining that any Pathfinder GM wouldn't allow it.
Pathfinder or not, Practiced Spellcaster is one of two crucial feats for pretty much any multiclassed spellcaster character. I've trouble imagining that any Pathfinder GM wouldn't allow it.
I don't allow it (or anything 3.X) in my game.
Edit: It's also not allowed in any of the games I'm a player in, each of which has a different GM which as far as I know haven't ever met each other, much less talk.
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Pathfinder or not, Practiced Spellcaster is one of two crucial feats for pretty much any multiclassed spellcaster character. I've trouble imagining that any Pathfinder GM wouldn't allow it.
Also not legal in PFS play. Makes going MT pretty hard in society (since I believe the CL trait is also right out). Home game wise, I agree it's not really too powerful to ban, but there are a lot of groups (mine included) which allow only those materials officially released by Paizo.
MT can be very versatile, but if you're an ORA/SOR than you've given up a great deal of versatility for each class already. I'm not sure putting their spell lists together will fix that.
Especially since you can't jump into the class until 2 levels later than with the prepared classes. I cannot tell you for a fact that a spontaneous MT is weaker, but it certainly seems that way to me.
I'd stick with only one level if you insist on the multiclass. Optimization is maximizing the impact of what aids you and minimizing the impact of what hinders you. The multiclass itself is what hinders you.
I don't allow it (or anything 3.X) in my game.
Yeah. It's that sort of unilateral restriction I don't get. The only reason Practiced Spellcaster isn't in Pathfinder is because it wasn't open game content; not because of any inherent flaw with the feat itself. The proof is in the fact that Paizo tried to mimic it as best they could with the Magical Knack trait. Barring all 3.X material unilaterally simply strikes me as a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water. But each his own I guess.
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Yeah. It's that sort of unilateral restriction I don't get. The only reason Practiced Spellcaster isn't in Pathfinder is because it wasn't open game content; not because of any inherent flaw with the feat itself. The proof is in the fact that Paizo tried to mimic it as best they could with the Magical Knack trait. Barring all 3.X material unilaterally simply strikes me as a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water. But each his own I guess.
In a way, the fact that Practiced Spellcaster was a must-have feat for multiclassed spellcasters was the inherent flaw with the feat. Even though it wasn't open content, Paizo could have included a feat that emulated it nearly exactly, if they chose to do so.
Instead, they gave us Magical Knack, a trait that could only be taken for a single class, and would only offset two levels of multiclassing. I know that the Pathfinder designers were concerned with making single-class builds viable to level 20, and they made some design decisions to discourage multiclassing.
I'm not trying to bash the Practiced Spellcaster feat, either. Hell, I used that feat plenty in some crazy builds in 3.5. But there is something wrong with must-have feats in general (and must-have feats that really should be taken twice, especially).
Frankly, I wish Mystic Theurge had a class ability that increased your caster level with both casting classes to offset the penalty for multiclassing (kind of like Ultimate Magus from Complete Mage had). After all, very few people are coming out to argue that Mystic Theurge builds are way overpowered, so let them have the caster level (especially since they're still giving up higher level spells known and spells per day). It does sort of seem like this would be an ability that would make the prestige class viable (although still not optimal, imo).
Off topic, I feel the same way about Druids and the Natural Spell feat. Who on earth wouldn't take this feat at 5th level for a Druid? That being the case, they should have simply given Druids the ability to use Natural Spell either as a separate class ability, or as part of the Wildshape ability itself.
It's sort of like insisting that a Monk spend an actual feat slot to purchase Improved Unarmed Strike. It would be just plain silly.
...Ending rambling rant now...
Barring all 3.X material unilaterally simply strikes me as a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water.
If I allow some 3.5-but-not-Pathfinder material, I'm going to "get" to waste hours of my life arguing about whether other material should be allowed or not -- and any combination of choices on my part is going to piss someone off. It's a lot easier to draw a line in the sand and call it a day.
There's a reason I stopped playing 3.5E a couple years before 4E dropped. Maybe someday Pathfinder will get to the same problem point but, for me, it's not there yet.
Off topic, I feel the same way about Druids and the Natural Spell feat. Who on earth wouldn't take this feat at 5th level for a Druid?
IMHO, Natural Spell always should have been a metamagic feat instead of the way it is. That being said, I think it's a less automatic choice in Pathfinder because depending on how your druid is built you may not want to do a whole lot of wildshaping.
Late, but some thoughts...
I'm looking for general ideas, here, just to see what's out there.
I've got a L1 half-orc Aberrant Sorcerer, starting spells Shield and Chill Touch. Originally planning a straight Sorcerer progression, as a reesult of RP, his second level was as a Bones Oracle, with the Bleeding Wounds revelation (L1 spells Cure Light, Inflict Light, Divine Favor).
It's not optimal right out of the gate, I know. But, tough, that's what we're working with.
How would you advance this?
1. This is more of a "fun" thing rather than an optimised thing, but: If you've only just leveled, ask your GM if you can switch your revelation to Death's Touch. Then, take your next 2 levels in Sorcerer--when you hit 3rd level Sorcerer, you can use your Long Limbs Aberrant Bloodline ability to deliver your Death's Touch from 10 feet away (along with any melee touch attack spells you have from both your sorcerer and oracle spell lists). (If you end up taking more levels in Oracle, take Bleeding Wounds later, as it will combine with Death's Touch).
2. Since your intent to mostly go sorcerer, I would stick to mostly levels in sorcerer with fewer levels in Oracle, for back up healing and flavor. This is to boost up your bloodline abilities, which are pretty dang cool, and to have some high level spells with high DCs.
3. If you're considering Mystic Theurge, which could be fun, you won't be able to do it till you hit 4 levels in each class (8th level at the earliest) so since you're at 2nd level now, just take some time to think on how you want to do it.
4. I'm going to say something CRAZY: Caster level is not the be all and end all of everything. Focus on spells that affect you or your allies (especially polymorph spells because of your bloodline--the bonus you get to duration makes up for loss of duration due to lower caster level). Pick combat spells that SR no when you can --- and or take Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration when you get a chance if you feel you need it. You've got only 1 caster stat (Charisma) so that's great--build that up to boost those Caster checks instead. Combat Casting (which you can take as a bonus feat from your sorcerer bloodline) will help with Concentration checks. Of course, if your GM does let you take the Magical Knack Trait, yay, but it's not necessary. I'm running a very high level campaign and I've got a couple multiclassed casters in the party; they're not having much trouble bypassing SR or being short of durations or anything like that, not even compared to the full caster. Maybe that's in part die roll luck but just in my personal gameplay experience, I've never seen maxed out caster level be all that impressive compared to not having a maxed out caster level (unless you're like, Caster Level 1 at level 18 or something, and that's an obvious exception).
5. Pick a favorite school where most of your offensive spells come from and take Spell Focus feats if you feel you need to boost your DCs more (or just keep maxing Charisma).
Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
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I've got Focused Mind, so I won't be able to get Magical Knack, too. But here's the plan:
I'm going straight Sorcerer. I'm sticking with Bleeding Wounds, because it happens to work with Chill Touch (yay negative energy)! Also, the Cure Light works well with my Orc Ferocity in emergencies, and the build will be more of a warrior/controller type with a bit of necromaster. I already have a 20 Charisma at 1st.
Level 3 feat: Combat Casting (took Toughness at 1st, no regrets there!)
Level 4 spells: Enlarge Person for free, Charm Person (to leverage Cha)
Level 5 feat: Still Spell (Not only is it good when Polymorphed into something weird, as an Oracle, I can wear armor.) Take Alter Self and Bull's Strength.
Level 7 feat: Improved Unarmed?
Level 8 feat: (Sorc 7 free feat): Silent Spell? Improved Grapple?
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Off topic, I feel the same way about Druids and the Natural Spell feat. Who on earth wouldn't take this feat at 5th level for a Druid?
IMHO, Natural Spell always should have been a metamagic feat instead of the way it is. That being said, I think it's a less automatic choice in Pathfinder because depending on how your druid is built you may not want to do a whole lot of wildshaping.
I guess I just don't see that. Even a Druid that is focused on casting can benefit a lot from spending the day wild shaped into an Elder Air Elemental. Get a +4 size bonus to Str, +6 size bonus to Dex, +4 natural armor bonus, fly 120 feet (perfect), immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks, gain DR 5/-, darkvision 60 feet, and gain the whirlwind ability. And spend the whole freaking day in that form, and don't give up your spell casting. Oh, you can't get into your backpack...
Still seems worth it to me.
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Off topic, I feel the same way about Druids and the Natural Spell feat. Who on earth wouldn't take this feat at 5th level for a Druid?IMHO, Natural Spell always should have been a metamagic feat instead of the way it is. That being said, I think it's a less automatic choice in Pathfinder because depending on how your druid is built you may not want to do a whole lot of wildshaping.I guess I just don't see that. Even a Druid that is focused on casting can benefit a lot from spending the day wild shaped into an Elder Air Elemental. Get a +4 size bonus to Str, +6 size bonus to Dex, +4 natural armor bonus, fly 120 feet (perfect), immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks, gain DR 5/-, darkvision 60 feet, and gain the whirlwind ability. And spend the whole freaking day in that form, and don't give up your spell casting. Oh, you can't get into your backpack...
Still seems worth it to me.
Yeah. Can't imagine why they removed it. /sarcasm.
@ OP: Honestly? Do it if you feel confident about your abilities to handle it. Sure, you won't be slinging wish or the other 9th-level spells, but you'll have more varied options with divine/arcane spontaneous when you reach the top. I once had an Ultimate Magus in a game where we got to Epic, and I never ran out of spells because of Sorcerer levels. So, do what you feel is best, and most entertaining to you!
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Okay, so I'm back thinking about the Aberrant Sorcerer again. So I'm thinking about Long Limbs. Great for melee touch attacks (and with Intensified Spell, Shocking Grasp might be more worthwile).
But what else is a melee touch attack aside from spells? Grapples, trips, and disarms aren't. Any other thoughts for fun melee touches?
Any other thoughts for fun melee touches?
Just wanted to point out that, though I could have posted an awesomely funny response to that comedic opening, I'm much too classy a guy for such low brow antics.
I'm looking for general ideas, here, just to see what's out there.
I've got a L1 half-orc Aberrant Sorcerer, starting spells Shield and Chill Touch. Originally planning a straight Sorcerer progression, as a reesult of RP, his second level was as a Bones Oracle, with the Bleeding Wounds revelation (L1 spells Cure Light, Inflict Light, Divine Favor).
It's not optimal right out of the gate, I know. But, tough, that's what we're working with.
How would you advance this?
If your DM is allowing Test Based Prereqs (p210) from Unearthed Arcana I say go Mystic Theurge.
I have a player doing that right now and he loves it. What he lacks in versatility he makes up for with sheer lasting power. He's made it through combats I've desigend to sap the hell out of the spell-casters in the group. His strength stands out when the fighters and he are still able to go and the wizards and clerics are steping into the background.
Just my 2 cp
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Okay, so I'm back thinking about the Aberrant Sorcerer again. So I'm thinking about Long Limbs. Great for melee touch attacks (and with Intensified Spell, Shocking Grasp might be more worthwile).
But what else is a melee touch attack aside from spells? Grapples, trips, and disarms aren't. Any other thoughts for fun melee touches?
Really, other than spells, nothing (or at least nothing I can think of). Maneuvers are all CMB checks. There's a higher-end monk feat from factions that can make stunning fist a touch attack... but that doesn't help you.
In terms of spells, Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, several other save or sucks are all touch, though, so still not terrible.
You can also deliver healing spells with the long limbs.
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Okay, so I'm back thinking about the Aberrant Sorcerer again. So I'm thinking about Long Limbs. Great for melee touch attacks (and with Intensified Spell, Shocking Grasp might be more worthwile).
But what else is a melee touch attack aside from spells? Grapples, trips, and disarms aren't. Any other thoughts for fun melee touches?
Really, other than spells, nothing (or at least nothing I can think of). Maneuvers are all CMB checks. There's a higher-end monk feat from factions that can make stunning fist a touch attack... but that doesn't help you.
In terms of spells, Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, several other save or sucks are all touch, though, so still not terrible.
Actually, Blindness/Deafness is a Medium range spell.
Also, get the Reach Spell metamagic feat, and Long Limbs become essentially meaningless for melee touch attacks. Deliver a touch spell at Close range by burning a spell slot one level higher.
Honestly, I can't imagine playing a Sorcerer that actively tries to get into melee. Seems ridiculously reckless to me...
To each their own, I guess.