What should good characters do with captured evil guys when confonted by an ineffective/corrupt legal system?
We play in an urban campaign where the main dispensers of law are the watch. Their primary purpose is to keep the rabble from bothering the wealthy. In cases of true crime against other "regular" citizens they seem disinterested at best and hostile at worst.
In the past when we have tried to bring a captured prisoner to justice (after they have surrendered or we have spared them for questioning) our characters have been interrogated about the the activities leading the the capture. Most times this is inconvienient and we would rather not divulge all of our secrets.
Also how do you "prove" that this is a bad guy. In our case the victims of the crime were from the lowest rung of society and were either dead or fled as soon as we reached any area of relative safety.
Would it be within the bounds of "good" to just kill them all (quickly and humanely) and let the gods sort them out?
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What should good characters do with captured evil guys when confonted by an ineffective/corrupt legal system?
We play in an urban campaign where the main dispensers of law are the watch. Their primary purpose is to keep the rabble from bothering the wealthy. In cases of true crime against other "regular" citizens they seem disinterested at best and hostile at worst.
In the past when we have tried to bring a captured prisoner to justice (after they have surrendered or we have spared them for questioning) our characters have been interrogated about the the activities leading the the capture. Most times this is inconvienient and we would rather not divulge all of our secrets.
Also how do you "prove" that this is a bad guy. In our case the victims of the crime were from the lowest rung of society and were either dead or fled as soon as we reached any area of relative safety.
Would it be within the bounds of "good" to just kill them all (quickly and humanely) and let the gods sort them out?
If the legitimate authority in an area is disinterested in seeing justice done then try and find a paladin or a just holy order to bring them to.
Failing that you either have the choice of taking their weapons and letting them go, starting your own prison, or executing them yourself.
I assume there's more than Good at play here. If you have Lawful PCs amongst the party, you might consider the argument from a standpoint of the law is the law, even if it the people behind it are not doing a good job of it right now. In other words, in this situation, to a Lawful character, giving the bad guys over may be important, even if the system is not currently working correctly.
That is not to say that a Lawful character has to be an idiot. He is still free to make whatever judgment calls he feels comfortable with.
As to killing the bad guys quickly and humanely being a Good act, at the risk of the standard flame war that always erupts from these sorts of things, it generally is not an act of Good to do so. People are going to squawk about that, but I think in general people in an anonymous forum are just sort of comfortable with bending morality to suit.
Some will say it depends on the crime. Does a murderer deserve death at the hands of a PC who has caught him? Well, if we're talking about a prisoner I think that's at least a Neutral decision. Goodness implies mercy. Lawfulness implies justice. Neutral is better suited to the argument. If you go down that road, remember, that without proper authority, you may be committing unlawful acts.
If I were in your situation, I would contemplate a move to a new region with better law enforcement - LOL. Or get jobs in government and start acquiring power/changing things.
As to an immediate solution, maybe you can make a contact in a more lawful city, or find some powerful patron or religious organization in the current region that is not corrupt and start working with him/them to make these criminals somehow pay off their debt to society (a church-sanctioned chain gang fixing roads all day comes to mind).
To me, adventuring in a corrupt kingdom is fun for awhile. But it really wears itself out after too long not being able to resolve the same situations over and over and over again, to anyone's satisfaction.
The issue with a paladin's code does not really apply to this situation. Everybody in the party is Good, but nobody is willing to take on the burden of playing a pally.
Our party is mostly CG (3 out of 6), but I am NG (so in another character) and the party cleric is LG. I am not really concerned about the rule consequences of my actions, but I do want to do "the right thing".
It seems stupid to let a murderer/kidnapper go, but it doesn't seem right to execute them when they pose no direct, immediate threat.
I guess you could argue that a quick death is more humane than a lingering death in a dungeon cell.
Of the record, this "bad guy" is just a flunky - not the BBEG.
Moving out of the city is not really an option. We are playing Ptolus, so the city is the campaign.
I bristle every time someone suggests that a LG character will NEVER do anything unlawful. Not every LG character puts the law first -- some might, but others, probably even most, will view Good as the highest END, and Lawful as the best MEANS. Edmund Burkes words about the triumph of evil would resonate with them. They will do everything they can to work within the boundaries of the law, but if push comes to shove, not every LG character will let evil triumph by virtue of the law. I know this brings them closer to NG than LG, but I've always viewed alignments, especially the Good alignments, as graduated, not strictly trinary. The difference between NG and LG is one of degree, not kind.
Furthermore, a LG character is going to view tthe law the same way he views himself -- as an agent for good, with certain responsivilities to the innocent and defenseless. The Lawful good character wants good laws, and if the laws fail to uphold good, they are to be changed -- any character who doesn't believe that is closer to LN than LG. So if the local authorities are corrupt and failing in their duty to defend the innocent, good heroes will try to clean house, change the laws. To what extremes will they go to do so? That's up to each character to decide. Do you simply set an example? Preach and harangue the local authorities? start a revolution? That question alone woul make a great campaign entirely.
As for the assertion that good means not killing/executing, ever, well, That is up for debate as well, and HAS been for millenia. But the opposite extreme -- just letting the villains go -- is equally questionable in its merits, since the likelihood is they will return to their evil ways. It's one thing to forgive someone who has wronged you, and show them mercy, it's entirely a different matter when the victim is powerless, and you, having the power to bring their transgressor to justice, chose to mete out mercy on the victims behalf.
The suggestion that you find an outside third party is a good one -- an organization with a reputation for fairness, neutrality, and uncorruptibiliy, and ask them to act as judges and juries, where both sides agree to abide by their decision. In Heinlein's book The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, that's sort of how legal disputes were handled.
Moving out of the city is not really an option. We are playing Ptolus, so the city is the campaign.
If it's worth anything, it hasn't been my experience that the City Watch in Ptolus is disinterested in justice and that it favors the wealthy. Of course, I recognize that your campaign could be altered in that regard.
But if your DM is using the full Ptolus flavor, there are a number of options:
You can take him to the Brotherhood of Redemption, an order of monks who seek to reform evil creatures because they believe that all life is inherently good.
The Lothianite Church is the largest church in the empire. They're large enough that they don't have to fear from the City Watch pushing them around, so they might not accept the Watch's ineffectiveness. You might find a friendly ear there. But they are a Lawful Good organization, so be prepared to answer some scrutinzing questions.
The Knights of the Chord and The Knights of the Golden Cross are more or less generic do-gooder organizations that might help you find justice.
Find a way to prove that this particular criminal is a threat to the wealthy...baring that, find a way to plant evidence proving this particular criminal is a threat to the wealthy...
Develope the prestigue/wealth/influence to get the watch to do what you want them to...
A murderer/kidnapper you say? Watch the Dark Knight...as the premise of that movie is pretty much the exact dilema your having...
In situation, the prisoners should be cruelly put to death. This way, you quickly turn evil, better to fit in that evil empire!
As someone who grew up on a farm and has hunted, the only time killin' is wrong is if you let the meat go to waste.
Don't forget to eat what you kill!
Just don't eat the brains. Kuru is no joke.
Great minds think alike. I was going to suggest keeping the prisoners to save money on trail rations.
A campaign specific answer (as in, this may not work depending on your campaign) but:
Take the villains to trial. Attend the trial. Vehemently press for his conviction. If convicted, vehemently press for whatever justice was assessed, to happen.
If the trial is a sham- then start trying to reform the system. Work from within or without to try and fix it.
It sounds like your DM *may* be trying to steer you all into a more political campaign than a "kill 'em all and let the gods sort 'em out" type.
As for your question in particular (i.e. assuming you can't/won't "bust the system") turn them in to the system once. Let the system handle it. If the system doesn't handle it properly, then don't take prisoners again. Ever.
"The justice system has failed these poor souls. But we won't."
-S
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You need to disarm your prisoners, gag them, and leave them tied up and hanging from a lamppost outside the Watch barracks in the middle of the night with a small card attached: "Courtesy of your Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman."
Honestly, it sounds like you guys are living in Gotham City - time to do your best Batman impression.
Bragol
Being a big fan of Ptolus i might have a few suggestions for you.
first, try the Brotherhood of Redemption. Not only will they take your bad guys off your hands, they will reward you for your efforts and turn the bad guys into good guys.
second, Find Igor Urnst. He's the commissar of Ptolus and request some kind of jurisdiction (such as someone in the party being deputized).
Third, go directly to the prison and talk to the warden and see if he will take the prisoners off your hands.
Forth, go to one of the Lothian based orders (the knights of the pale are probably your best bet) and turn them over to them.
Fifth, if your LG party cleric happens to be a cleric of Lothian you have the law on your side. The church IS law in Ptolus, and a paladin or priest of Lothian who asks something of a city guard should be able to expect it to get done (provided it's within reason. If you ask a guard to stand at the door of a building and not let anyone in because it's a crime scene and your investigating for the church, he probably would, but if you ask him to go buy you groceries he would not). So if you come tromping out of a crawl through the necropolis or the sewers or some such and take your prisoners to the local guardhouse and your cleric says "I am a cleric of Lothian, book 'em Dano" and gives a statement of the events, your prisoners should be kept there in a holding cell until they can be tried.
All of these might help you with your dilemma. Remember that while the city gaurds are some of the best trained and funded you can find, they are there to maintain order and peace, and protect the common folk. If there isn't an immediate threat, expect a slow response. That being said the city guard is not corrupt' incompetent or evil, and they do not just let evil people go like they are running Arkham, but the wheels of justice are slow. That's put in there because your not playing a neighborhood watch who observe and report then let the guards handle it, you are HEROES and often the situations you find yourselves in is one that requires a heroes measure.
Shamelessly stolen from David Weber's books.
Step 1: Have someone in the party take Profession (Artist)
Step 2: Strip the bad guys down to their underwear.
Step 3: Party Artist draws their face and distinctive marks/tattoos.
Step 4: Write their crimes down with their picture.
Step 5: Explain to them that you are leaving them tied up for the watch, and if you catch them breaking the law again, you'll assume they have an in with the watch and punish them yourselves next time.
Step 6: Check each badguy against existing drawings/crimes lists.
Step 7: Next time you catch someone again, hand out a punishment commensurate with the crime. Slit throat for murder, broken hand for theft, broken kneecaps for assault, etc.
Note that if you aren't a LG party, then the above is not needed. However, if you are LG, you have to at least pay lip service to the locals actually being the law. Once they've proved they aren't, then you can administer justice yourself. Everyone gets one chance to serve their time in gaol, after that, they deal with you.
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In that vein: Shamelessly stolen from Simon R. Green's Hawk and Fisher series:
1. Have at least one character with high Intimidate and a nasty reputation.
2. Tell your prisoner that he is going to confess, and if necessary quite literally beg for a full jail sentence. If he doesn't you'll kill him horribly.
3. If he doesn't, follow up on the threat and kill him horribly. Make this follow-up very much a known quantity in the criminal underworld. Note that torture isn't necessary, killing him cleanly and then physically ripping the body apart and leaving it in four separate alleys is just as effective.
4. After #3, the next guy is very likely to beg for jail like you tell him to.
As LG you need to put in a good faith effort to fllow the law...but not if it can't stop predation.
It depend on how evil and/or vile the criminals are...you could say recruit them to your side. Have them work for you.
I tend to play a LOT of CG characters. The ones who believe in the law, but just don't believe it necessarily applies to THEM....
As such, I don't think ANY of my characters would be fine with just killing someone who was beaten and helpless before them. In combat, absolutely.... If they are out in the wilds, MAYBE... he'd prefer to take their gear, and leave them tied to a tree.
QUESTIONABLE maybe... Certainly leaving them to die or worse... but HIS blade didn't get dirty... and the villain has a chance to live.
One of my most recent 'non-killing' characters was a half-elf raised amongst the elves. He was a firm believer in second chances. He had NO problem beating them down and/or crippling them... but they would STILL live... and MAYBE SOMEDAY amount to something better. PROBABLy not a fighter... but in 20 years, they could be a doctor or a philosopher... Do SOMETHIGN worthwhile...
My LG Paladin on the other hand... he was faced with a similiar situation, lost in another plane, with a defeated opponent who would INEVETIBALY have turned on them, and there WAS nowhere to send him peacefully...
My decision that day was to cut him free, return his weapon and shield, and have a trial by combat right then and there. If the gods wished him to live, then so be it.
Different people see good in different ways, but none of my characters would be comfortable with throat-slitting of unarmed and defeated enemies....
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Sure LG characters do it, as judge jury executioner, mostly paladins are the ones being played in this role....
CG characters could as well
"That is frontier justice is what that was." says the grizzled old ranger.......
That attitude is Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good.
Everyone seems to be forgetting that the hallmark quality of playing a Good alignment is Mercy.
Sure LG characters do it, as judge jury executioner, mostly paladins are the ones being played in this role....
CG characters could as well
"That is frontier justice is what that was." says the grizzled old ranger.......That attitude is Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good.
Everyone seems to be forgetting that the hallmark quality of playing a Good alignment is Mercy.
Not really. Mercy has many forms. If the LG character knows, due to previous experience, that the local police won't punish someone due to either laziness, incompetence, or criminal collusion, then simply releasing the person is not mercy, it borders on criminal collusion as well.
The LG character has someone helpless, can't take them anywhere else. They know this person loves killing children. Loves burning them alive. Has set 3 orphanages on fire. However, he's the son of the local noble, and the constabulary will not only not punish him, they'll kill the characters for bringing him in. They saw him do it, but it's their word against his.
In such a situation, the LG character can turn them over to the authorities and be killed, but that's not LG, that's LS (Lawful Stupid). They can try to take him to a neighboring barony, which won't do anything since it's the son of the local noble, and they don't want war with him. They can try to take him to the king, but it will never get to the point of a cleric casting zone of truth, since the noble will yell loudly that they set the fires and are framing him.
There aren't a lot of good choices. The likely best choice would simply be to give out low justice and burn the body to a cinder to delay resurrection. Then leave the town/city/barony/country.
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The LG character has someone helpless, can't take them anywhere else. They know this person loves killing children. Loves burning them alive. Has set 3 orphanages on fire.
Player of LG character should find a GM that isn't a fan of such disturbing fare.
I mean, yikes, isn't the sort of fantasy life that one backs away and calls 911?
Or do I just play with hopelessly namby-pamby people, for whom 'merely' killing people is bad enough?
The LG character has someone helpless, can't take them anywhere else. They know this person loves killing children. Loves burning them alive. Has set 3 orphanages on fire.Player of LG character should find a GM that isn't a fan of such disturbing fare.
I mean, yikes, isn't the sort of fantasy life that one backs away and calls 911?
Or do I just play with hopelessly namby-pamby people, for whom 'merely' killing people is bad enough?
Actually, I cleaned it up a bit. I stole the plot right out of a comic book. Spawn actually.
I haven't actually used that plot, but it's not all that far out there either. My games tend to be more gritty/shades of gray. Goblins aren't automatically evil slobbering things to be killed and forgotten. Neither are Hobgoblins, Drow, Gnolls, Orcs, etc. And there are sometimes situations that don't have nice neat endings. Life tends to be messy, even simulated life.
Player of LG character should find a GM that isn't a fan of such disturbing fare.
I mean, yikes, isn't the sort of fantasy life that one backs away and calls 911?
Tastes vary. I've played PCs like that. I've played in games where such a thing would horrify the villains. I generally prefer playing in vicious, corrupt worlds where the PCs cannot rely on the authorities for justice, but where the villainy is more pulp than horror.
But sometimes the people I play with want dark and horrible, and I'm happy to accommodate them. Settings like that make even the smallest victories sweeter.
Or do I just play with hopelessly namby-pamby people, for whom 'merely' killing people is bad enough?
I won't judge your games if you don't judge mine. Horror is a spice and I'd grow tired of it quickly if it were a part of every meal.
Player of LG character should find a GM that isn't a fan of such disturbing fare.
I mean, yikes, isn't the sort of fantasy life that one backs away and calls 911?
Tastes vary. I've played PCs like that. I've played in games where such a thing would horrify the villains. I generally prefer playing in vicious, corrupt worlds where the PCs cannot rely on the authorities for justice, but where the villainy is more pulp than horror.
But sometimes the people I play with want dark and horrible, and I'm happy to accommodate them. Settings like that make even the smallest victories sweeter.
Or do I just play with hopelessly namby-pamby people, for whom 'merely' killing people is bad enough?I won't judge your games if you don't judge mine. Horror is a spice and I'd grow tired of it quickly if it were a part of every meal.
Agreed... Too much is disturbing. But JUST the right amount, when you least expect it, will shock players and create just enough Vengeance to drive a whole campaign...
Kids, parents, spouses, siblings and womenfolk... Wonderful motivators to push the pc's that extra mile.
And really... if that kind of thing makes you feel Squemish...
GOOD!!!! REALLY... That's a Very GOOD thing!!! The day you become immune to thoughts like that, is a VERY bad day....
You know you can disable anybody without killing him right ?
You can beat him with non-lethal damage so he sleep a long long time, you can maim him, cut his hands (and his tongue in case of a spellcaster)etc.
It might seem a bit cruel, but it's a lot more merciful than killing him and a lot much mercy than he gives to his victims... ;)
I had players doing that kind of things, he has to enter in the BBEG manor who was heavily guarded (lots of patrol), after being caught the players put some guerilla tactics in motion : they fell on every guard alone or by two or three, hit them with part lethal and part non-lethal damage, when they were helpless the players broke their knees (stabilizing them if needed) and left them before reinforcement come... Putting the fear in every guard's heart and a lot of them choose desertion over the "invisible demon strike"... ;)
Sometimes they asked for information, never forcing them nor torturing him, and when the guy has told everything he wanted to they apologize to him, hit him with a club behind the ears, broke his knees, shout for guards to come and help the wounded guard and run... :p
They've made a few kill by misdjudging the amount of lethal damage to do (difficult to quantify such a thing, I don't give how many HP is left to my players, just general indication and for thos skilled in heal a much better one) but all in all they've killed only 1 in 4 guards... Much less than the usual party who kill every guards without a thought :p
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Hah! All this talk about batman and old pulp fiction reminded me of Doc Savage! He had the best solution for this problem:
In early stories some of the criminals captured by Doc received "a delicate brain operation" to cure their criminal tendencies. The criminals returned to society fully productive and unaware of their criminal past. It is referred to in Truman Capote's book, In Cold Blood, as an older Kansan recalls Doc's "fixing" criminals he had caught.
Surely the PCs could find/research/develop some spell or item that would allow for a similar solution? The Helm of opposite alignment does this. There's also a card in the deck of many things that has this effect as well. There must be a spell or ritual that can "fix" criminals so that they are no longer a danger to anyone.
Sorted. :)
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Killing is such a funky thing in a D&D-style fantasy world anyway.
Killing someone just sends their soul to whatever afterlife *they knew they were going to anyway.* The more 'evil' they were, the more actively they were embracing the notion of going to hell (presumably under the impression that they'd be starting somewhere other than on the ground floor, thanks to their special level of wickedness).
It becomes the questions of 'Do I kill the evil warlord, and create a new devil, that increases the power of the evil god he worshipped, or do I throw him in jail, and hope that twenty years of forced confinement makes his wickedness weaken to the point that his 'evil' fades (from having been unable to actually *do* anything evil for decades) and his once-powerful soul ends up going somewhere neutral or at least being less likely to become a powerful devil?'
Killing evil things in the fantasy world only makes Team Evil stronger.
It's very much a 'If you strike me down, I shall become even more powerful than you could imagine.' scenario.
Spending the time to do a dozen Diplomacy checks and maybe leaving some Followers behind to keep them on the straight and narrow (ooh, an actual use for the Leadership feat!), to get the survivors of a tribe of kobolds to follow a LN god, or even function as LN worshippers of a LG god (preferably one with tenets that they could identify with, such as the whole 'community & tradition over all' ethos of Erastil), denies a bunch of souls to the evil gods (or, if they don't worship any specific evil god, to the daemons to eat), and increases the power of the LN or LG god chosen. It's a total win-win, and once of the few uses of Leadership followers that would make most GMs agree heartily (since it essentially removes those followers from the PCs entourage, since they are assigned to do missionary work and never to be seen again).
In D&D/PF, killing folk who are of different alignments could be absolutely antithetical (since it empowers evil, and stops the forces from good from 'saving' those souls).
On the other hand, the 'logical' conclusion to this train of thought is that it's best to convert evil creatures, and then kill them immediately, to 'save their souls' and stave off any chance of them backsliding into heathenry. The train has clearly jumped the tracks if the setting assumption encourages using the methods of the Spanish Inquisition. :)
There's also the question of what happens to souls that haven't yet had time to choose. Killing children might be considered especially heinous, as they might be more likely to be dumped into Abaddon as Daemon-chow, having not yet had the experience or time necessary to truly make an informed choice as to devotion and count as a 'worshipper' of even their local, familial or cultural divinity. Killing the non-devout, even those misguided Rahadoumi or Kalistocrats or Razmiran-'priests,' might be seen as empowering the Daemon Horsemen of the Apocalypse and hastening the destruction of all life...
If the major religions have any say in the political / secular issues of the day, they might work behind the scenes to try and arrange mores and customs and laws to prevent bringing about the apocalypse, or empowering rival faiths.
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There's also the question of what happens to souls that haven't yet had time to choose. Killing children might be considered especially heinous, as they might be more likely to be dumped into Abaddon as Daemon-chow, having not yet had the experience or time necessary to truly make an informed choice as to devotion and count as a 'worshipper' of even their local, familial or cultural divinity.
Wouldn't they get sent to the Modrons and Inevitables, rather than the daemons? Where I imagine they would spend eternity serving as cogs in some great wheel or something - does that count as an improvement? :P
RPG theology is weird. I once had an argument with someone about whether it was possible for someone in a fantasy setting where Gods were real was capable of "losing faith".
Moving out of the city is not really an option. We are playing Ptolus, so the city is the campaign.
What about the Sisters of Silence then?
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The problem is that as Nighthawk pointed out, in inventing this device they had created a device for tyranny that relied on the purity of intent of the folks operating it. Ultimately the question is left to the reader, are the rewards of removing free will in society worth the potential dangers to freedom?
It makes for some cool campaign drama, certainly!
Just a couple of points:
1) You can never "know" that a prisoner you release is going to go on to commit more crimes. You may suspect it, but you can't know. Even diviniation magic gets pretty wonky when it comes to predicting future actions.
2) Most Good religions include some concept of the possibility for atonement and redemption. An NPC who is killed out of hand has no chance to change his ways. You could even take the view that you have granted a victory to the dark side by killing him while his soul is evil.
All that said, it is difficult for lawful and/or good parties to operate in a city where the law itself is corrupt. I don't think there is any one, absolutely perfect one-sixe-fits-all answer to their dilemma. Good PCs just have to make their decisions as best they can, on a case-by-case basis, trying to balance mercy and justice to advance the greater good as much as possible.