| 27 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. |
Today in our game my Druid cast Entangle, and I was under the impression that my allies would not be affected by it. The DM ruled that they were, and as arguing in the middle of combat generally ends badly, we played it like that and we ended up slaughtering the goblinoids anyway.
I found this old thread.
There was no clear conclusion, but it seems that the general consensus is that your allies ARE effected.
This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts.
Emphasis mine.
I take "foes" to mean "enemies of the caster". The text then switches from "foes" to "creatures", which causes people to think "foes" was just a bad choice of wording, and that the plants grab everyone.
I disagree with that, and think that "creatures" refers to the same foes from before, but just generalizes the creature type (so you know it works on animals, humanoids, dragons, whatever). I think the grass only attacks creatures that are your enemies, or that you otherwise designated. While you don't control the plants directly, when you cast the spell, you can say/pray/think "grab the goblins, leave the humans and the elf."
The terrain would still be rough terrain because of all the writhing plants, but it wouldn't be actively grabbing at all your friends.
As noted in the old thread, the wording of the spell was changed from 3.5. It went from "creatures" to "foes" in the first sentence, which appears to be an intentional change. This is the strongest argument for my view.
The best argument against my understanding seems to be "On page 214 of the core rule book, under "Area" it states; 'Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you DON'T CONTROL WHICH CREATURES OR OBJECTS THE SPELL EFFECTS.'"
So is the word "foes" really just a bad choice of words? Are druids seriously affected by their own entangle spells? Doesn't that seem odd?
Today in our game my Druid cast Entangle, and I was under the impression that my allies would not be affected by it. The DM ruled that they were, and as arguing in the middle of combat generally ends badly, we played it like that and we ended up slaughtering the goblinoids anyway.
I found this old thread.
There was no clear conclusion, but it seems that the general consensus is that your allies ARE effected.
This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts.
It seems obvious to me that when you first cast it, it only targets your enemies. However, if ANYONE moves into it from the outside after casting, they get targeted.
The best argument against my understanding seems to be "On page 214 of the core rule book, under "Area" it states; 'Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you DON'T CONTROL WHICH CREATURES OR OBJECTS THE SPELL EFFECTS.'"
This is an exception based game. You quoted the general rule and entangle is the exception (as are several other spells).
Talked with my DM about this today, out-of-game. He said it applied to everyone, even the druid herself, and that it would be too powerful any other way.
I guess that's the way we're playing it in my group :)
Today in our game my Druid cast Entangle, and I was under the impression that my allies would not be affected by it. The DM ruled that they were, and as arguing in the middle of combat generally ends badly, we played it like that and we ended up slaughtering the goblinoids anyway.
I found this old thread.
There was no clear conclusion, but it seems that the general consensus is that your allies ARE effected.
This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts.Emphasis mine.
I take "foes" to mean "enemies of the caster". The text then switches from "foes" to "creatures", which causes people to think "foes" was just a bad choice of wording, and that the plants grab everyone.
I disagree with that, and think that "creatures" refers to the same foes from before, but just generalizes the creature type (so you know it works on animals, humanoids, dragons, whatever). I think the grass only attacks creatures that are your enemies, or that you otherwise designated. While you don't control the plants directly, when you cast the spell, you can say/pray/think "grab the goblins, leave the humans and the elf."
The terrain would still be rough terrain because of all the writhing plants, but it wouldn't be actively grabbing at all your friends.
...
I agree with you. I think it is clear that the spell itself targets your foes. More creatures who are foes who come into the area become targets.
Where people are getting disconnected is that the area of effect is treated as difficult terrain for everybody. Including your allies. But the spell still doesn't target them, as in, the plants don't grab them. They just have a hard time moving through the area.
Talk with him again and explain that Entangle is a very situtational spell as it says that you control plants in the area. If you are not in the wilderness or something similar with plantlife, then entangle does not work. This is why it goes into detail about the plants having thorns and such. This is why it only affects your foes.
Alternatively spells like Web affect everyone because they can be cast anytime anywhere.
Trista1986 has the right of it.
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No Entangle works against EVERYONE because it is an Area (spread) spell. Note the bolded sections from the Magic chapter. "Foes" is merely flavor text.
Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
Cone, Cylinder, Line, or Sphere: Most spells that affect an area have a particular shape.
A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won't go around corners.
When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell's point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area.
A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares through which the line passes.
A sphere-shaped spell expands from its point of origin to fill a spherical area. Spheres may be bursts, emanations, or spreads.
--Vrock garden
VROCK: Those quotes don't apply because this is an exception-based game and entangle is clearly an exception to those rules.
I would agree with you IF it was clear that, that was flavor text. Since it's part of the spell description and not in its own italicized paragraph (or differentiated in ANY way), then whose to say whether it is flavor text or rules text?
It sure looks like rules text to me.
I believe Vrock has the right of it.
The first line is flavor text, the rest of it is the actual mechanics.
It is an area, it affects everything in the area, nothing is safe. It is possible that the latter text is simply worded poorly, but we'll need Dev response on that one. If it only affected enemies, it would say 'Enemies who...' wouldn't it?
I never even noticed that before. I guess I will hit the FAQ button to see if that was the intent.
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The way we have played it in the past is by exactly the way it is written.
Our Druid cast the spell and all foes were immediately affected by the Entangle. I also happened to be in the area, but was NOT affected. However, had I moved from my "safe" square, I would have moved into the area of effect and then been subject to the Entangle.
As it happened I was a Sorcerer and one of the foes was a FIghter. I Magic Missiled the poor sap to death from my haven. When the Entangle ended I was free to move about again.
Bless specifically states in the Area field, "The caster and all allies within a 50-ft. burst, centered on the caster".
Bane does not say this. "Area 50-ft.-radius burst, centered on you." The description says "Bane fills your enemies with fear and doubt. Each affected creature takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls and a -1 penalty on saving throws against fear effects. Bane counters and dispels bless."
Entangle's area is "plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread". Its description says "This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts."
For Bless, it's obvious it only affects allies, because the Area explicitly states that it only targets allies.
Bane has a generalized area, but explicitly says enemies, and then says affected creatures.
Entangle has a generalized area, uses the word foes, and then uses generalized "creatures", as opposed to "affected creatures". Then it gets even more nebulous by saying creatures that enter need to make saves.
I also mashed the FAQ button. Let's get Jason and the others in here if we can.
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I'm sorry but someone has to point out rule 0.
Quote:
The Most Important Rule
The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.
Emphasis mine.
Now, that being said, I agree with those of you who say it first targets your foes and then anyone or anything that then enters the area. I do applaud the OP for not ruining ambiance for the sake of a rules question. However, since the GM couldn't be convinced later on, then then you should adhere to his ruling.
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I'm sorry but someone has to point out rule 0.
Quote:
The Most Important Rule
The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.Emphasis mine.
Now, that being said, I agree with those of you who say it first targets your foes and then anyone or anything that then enters the area. I do applaud the OP for not ruining ambiance for the sake of a rules question. However, since the GM couldn't be convinced later on, then then you should adhere to his ruling.
Most DM's want to know the correct way. There is a difference between misreading a rule, and house ruling it. As a DM myself if a player finds proof of something I have been doing wrong I would rather it be brought to my attention.
PS:Why do people apologize for something before they do it? It is annoying to no end, and you did not have to point anything out. We all know the what rule 0 is. It is not like you putting it up for us to see was going to shine any new light on the issue.
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Tragically, we'll never know the GM's reasoning for his decision, unless of course he gets on here and tell's us why. I also like it when players point out something they think I'm doing wrong, however I retain the right to slap them with rule 0 if it get's out of hand.
PS: It's a figure of speech. I don't care that it annoys you. And what if the OP or other's reading this thread had never heard of rule 0 and that it was actually printed in the book?
Tragically, we'll never know the GM's reasoning for his decision, unless of course he gets on here and tell's us why. I also like it when players point out something they think I'm doing wrong, however I retain the right to slap them with rule 0 if it get's out of hand.
PS: It's a figure of speech. I don't care that it annoys you. And what if the OP or other's reading this thread had never heard of rule 0 and that it was actually printed in the book?
I hate to complain but ....
A Figure of Speech is where a word or words are used to create an effect, often where they do not have their original or literal meaning.
If someone says that they are 'starving', they do not mean that they are in fact dying of hunger, but that they are very hungry. This is a simple example of a figure of speech, where the word is used to heighten or increase the state that they are describing. A metaphor or a simile are two of the most common forms used.
So you were not sorry nor did it have to be done, meaning the words were a waste of space, fair enough.
If the player does not know what the concept of rule 0 is then his DM has failed him since that should be a day one mentioning.
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Honestly, what does it matter how I word my response? You letting everyone know that a particular phrase annoys you could, in fact, be considered a "waste of space".
Judging by a lot of posts on these forums, a lot of people need to reread rule 0. If everyone truely understood rule 0 there wouldn't be so many questions about "why did my GM do this?".
PS: Saying
I hate to complain but ....
Is the same thing as saying "I'm sorry but..."
The way we have played it in the past is by exactly the way it is written.
Our Druid cast the spell and all foes were immediately affected by the Entangle. I also happened to be in the area, but was NOT affected. However, had I moved from my "safe" square, I would have moved into the area of effect and then been subject to the Entangle.
As it happened I was a Sorcerer and one of the foes was a FIghter. I Magic Missiled the poor sap to death from my haven. When the Entangle ended I was free to move about again.
That's the way I've understood the spell... As a DM I play it like that... ;)
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
My DM is a pretty laid back guy, and we have changed rules based on discussion before. There's no hostility on either side, and if it comes down to it I'm fine accepting his ruling. This is a long-running group that's converted from 3.5 through the PF beta to the final version, and this has happened a few times.
I think we changed the way Empower Spell worked three times before Jason explicitly responded to it.
Anyway, I'm glad to see a bunch of people clicked to make this a FAQ candidate. Either way, I'd just really like to know!
I can not for sure say how the spell is intended, as a DM I probably will have it affect anyone in the area, the spell is fairly powerful as it is for it's level and I tend to think it was meant as flavor text.
I've written this post 3 times and it still seems to me to come across as a jerk.. so- please don't take it that way.. as I do not intend it that way.
"Foe" is not fluff. "Foe" is a word used multiple times, across the spectrum of spells, special abilities, and feats of both PC's and monsters.
Foe to Friend spells
The Step Up feat and its friend in the APG.
They all use "foe". "Foe" and "creature" are not interchangeable. They are two, separate words that mean different things.
If "Foe" is fluff then:
When an ally 5 foot steps away and you have Step Up and its proginy feat, you can take a "10 foot" step to move up to and around them if you want to. I don't really think this was the intent.
Greater Reposition (Combat) "you receive a .... bonus to reposition a foe".
Moving on to an example from the Summoner entry:
Here, Foe becomes Opponent in the text of the ability. "unsettling to its foes" becomes "opponents withing" and "opponent becomes".
probably the best example, the Prayer spell.
prayer
You bring special favor upon yourself and your allies while bringing disfavor to your enemies. You and each of your allies gain a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saves, and skill checks, while each of your foes takes a –1 penalty on such rolls.
So, how does this mesh with Entangle?
"This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area."Foes in the area of effect. Or, those who enter the area.
There are really two ways to read it.
1) Foes in the effect and foes who enter it afterwards are effected by the spell"
and
2) "foes in the effect, and anyone on earth regardless of their affiliation to the caster who enters it are effected by it".
Personally- given the wording of the spell- I'm going with the first interpretation.
"foes in the effect or those that enter the area" seems clear to me to be talking about foes in it, or foes that enter the area after. You have to ask, what is "those". "those" are the foes. The rest of the spell then goes on to talk about what happens to those foes.
Again, as I stated at the beginning, I don't mean this to come across snarky or rude or anything.
-S
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I think it might be helpful to compare the 3.5 version with the PFRPG version:
"Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round on your turn, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement."
"This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts."
While I disagree with it, because I think it makes the spell too powerful, I find it hard to argue that the spell is meant to affect allies given the addition of the word foe where it did not exist before. It appears that the wording is intended to mean that foes become entangled whereas allies AND foes treat the area of effect as difficult terrain.
Someone in the old thread pointed out that the word changing had to have been intentional, or else it would have been copied and pasted like many other spells.
They also weakened entangle a lot. Breaking free is a move action now (used to be a full round action). The DC is lower.
Maybe when they did all this to weaken the spell, they added a little kick back in.
I'd go with the "only enemies are affected the time it is cast but anyone who moves in later gets affected to" since at the time the druid casts the spell he has some control over it he looses after on
It says "foes" because you're not supposed to cast it on your friends.
Imagine your group gets beaten up quite badly and you want to escape - if it works only on foes, it'd be a nice spell to block your enemies from chasing your party. Also you could cast it to block the enemies from attacking your casters and archers and force them to face your tanks. In both cases, allies would be in the AoE
I'm sorry but someone has to point out rule 0.
Yeah but that argument would close any thread on rule questions. It's not that we want to persuade inverseicarus' DM, it's just about finding about how a rule was meant to be.
I'm pretty sure 'foes' means 'the guys you're fighting.'
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Imagine your group gets beaten up quite badly and you want to escape - if it works only on foes, it'd be a nice spell to block your enemies from chasing your party. Also you could cast it to block the enemies from attacking your casters and archers and force them to face your tanks. In both cases, allies would be in the AoE.
True. It would probably be useful to ask your DM what he or she thinks about this spell before proceeding, in those instances.
Well if it works only on "foe" does that mean "who you think are foe" or the actuel foe ?
If one person who's fighting with you is a traitor (so a foe in reality but you think it's an ally) is he free of movement ?
And if someone in the group you're fighting is a secret ally who only feint to fight (volontarily missing etc.) but you're not aware of it is he affected ?
And if you're aware who's the traitor does it affect him (revealing you know he is a traitor) ? Same with the secret ally in the ranks of the foe, if you're aware of him does the spell not affect him (revealing he's a friend of yours) ?
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Spells work from the casters perceptions, with a few absolutes like detect good/evil/angst
A "foe" would be someone that the caster believes is an enemy, regardless of the reality of the situation. So a charmed caster would be able to target his party members if he *believed* they were enemies for the moment.
My DM and I talked it over and we decided to go with the following interpretation until any official word comes in:
When the spell is cast, only foes in the area have to save against it. The plants ignore friendly targets. (This is roleplayed by asking the goddess of nature to "leave the humans and the elf", or whatever).
There is no save at the end of the first turn the spell is cast(as per the "... but those that remain in the area must save at the end of your turn" line). This means no "double saves" on the first turn, and it also means that my allies do not need to save against it.
At the end of my subsequent turns, everyone has to make save, friends (and myself) included. This simulates that the plants essentially go wild after the initial casting of the spell.
The entire area is rough terrain for everyone for the entire duration, including allies.
We're both happy with the interpretation we have agreed on. It lets the spell work as a escape aid, for one turn, even if we're in base-to-base with the monsters, and it doesn't give all of my allies free reign to move through the thrashing vines after the first round.
Honestly, what does it matter how I word my response? You letting everyone know that a particular phrase annoys you could, in fact, be considered a "waste of space".
Judging by a lot of posts on these forums, a lot of people need to reread rule 0. If everyone truely understood rule 0 there wouldn't be so many questions about "why did my GM do this?".
PS: Saying
Is the same thing as saying "I'm sorry but..."
I hate to complain but ....
When I said "I hate to complain but..." I was being facetious. In any event my tirade was not worth the effort so I do apologize.
Rule 0 does not tell intent of the rule though, and DM's do make mistakes which is not the same as rule 0.Rule 0 is very well known while a DM's intentions may not be.
Double Check older version Page 254 2nd ed AD&D (1st printing, Aprl 1995). Listed here just as reference to what the spell use to be.
Entangle = "" By means of this spell, the caster is able to cause plants in the area of effect to entangle creatures within the area. The grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine abou the creatures, holding them fast for the duration of the spell. Any creature entering the area is subject to this effect. A creature that rolls a successful saving throw vs spell can escape the area, moving at only 10 feet per round until out of the area. Exceptionally large (gargantuan) or Stronger creatures may suffer little or no distress from this spell, at the DM's option, based on the stregth of the entangling plants. ""
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Double check Pathfinder version page 278 PF phb.
Entangle
School transmutation; Level druid 1, ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Reflex partial; see text; Spell Resistance no
This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts.
If the plants in the area are covered in thorns, those in the area take 1 point of damage each time they fail a save against the entangle or fail a check made to break free. Other effects, depending on the local plants, might be possible at GM discretion.
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The way i read the Pathfinder version
1st round): It only effect your foes or anyone entering the area.
2nd round, on your turn): It effects anyone in the area (yourself included).
Sounds to me, like the druids friends have 1 round to get out of the area of effect, to escape its effects before needing to make a save each round after the first (on the druids turn).
..............
Anyway, that how i am reading it.
In the 4th printing Core Rulebook, the wording of the first sentence was changed from "foes" to "creatures." For some reason we didn't call out this change in the 4th Printing update ("errata") document, so it didn't get added to the PRD (because they update the PRD based on what the update document says is updated).
We are going to note this word change in the 5th Printing update document. The web team is going to update the PRD to reflect this change the next time they make an update to the PRD (presumably when Bestiary 2 and Ultimate Magic are added).
Because of the change from "foes" to "creatures," it should now be clear that the spell affects the caster's allies as well as enemies.