Vampire is the definitive game of the 90's, encapsulating the Zeitgeist of the late eighties and mid nineties in a way no other game ever managed.It is also one of the great games of all times. And now, for the first time in close to a decade it will see a new release, in the form of the 20th anniversary edition.
To say I am excited by this prospect is a massive understatement, I hope you'll all join me is a massive cheer of celebration.
Vampire is the definitive game of the 90's, encapsulating the Zeitgeist of the late eighties and mid nineties in a way no other game ever managed.It is also one of the great games of all times. And now, for the first time in close to a decade it will see a new release, in the form of the 20th anniversary edition.
To say I am excited by this prospect is a massive understatement, I hope you'll all join me is a massive cheer of celebration.
Nice, very nice. However, I will reserve any cheers of celebration for when Werewolf: The Apocalypse gets the same treatment.
Because they suck at keeping their website and online store updated. Go to their store and find the future releases page and it will still be showing two books that came out months ago as coming soon.
I'd be interested in checking this out. I own several of the Vampire books but never got a chance to play (due to my typical players' disdain/previous bad experiences with the people that usually played Vampire in our area) so I'm a bit on the fence as to whether or not it would be a purchase for me.
I wonder if they are going to update it to the new system or keep the old. I have a slight preference to the old but there are definately things I didn't like about it (Appearance as a stat, Celerity, and such). On the other hand, I sort of like the new setting better then VtM. I liked that there were more political entities for instance, but it seemed like they lacked a big external threat like the Sabbat. Also I think they should have had 7 - 9 clans rather then 5.
I'm sort of interested to see what they do but WoD doesn't do much for me any more, old or new.
I wonder if they are going to update it to the new system or keep the old. I have a slight preference to the old but there are definately things I didn't like about it (Appearance as a stat, Celerity, and such). On the other hand, I sort of like the new setting better then VtM. I liked that there were more political entities for instance, but it seemed like they lacked a big external threat like the Sabbat. Also I think they should have had 7 - 9 clans rather then 5.
I'm sort of interested to see what they do but WoD doesn't do much for me any more, old or new.
Funny, most people I have talked to on here or in person about the two systems tend to be the opposite, preferring the setting and background from the old and the mechanics from the new, especially when you are talking the two versions of Mage.
Funny, most people I have talked to on here or in person about the two systems tend to be the opposite, preferring the setting and background from the old and the mechanics from the new, especially when you are talking the two versions of Mage.
New Mage, I'll give you, is far superior then old. On the other hand it lacks in strong external threats and the layout of the book is the worst I've ever seen. The book is more difficult to read then some books that are in another language. I wish they released a bare bones copy that used black lettering and no watermark symbols in the background. Other then that we generally throw out the setting and run it in the Dresden Files universe, which it does a good job with.
As far as NWoD system, I have a few problems with it which are largely personal. With the system its I hate the advantage system. It seems like some elements cost more then they are actually worth and others you need to have to be good at something.
In a Game of Thrones game that we did with NWoD I played a knight who was primarily social but ended with a 4 in melee with a specialization in swords. While the character should have been a decent combatant, he was often useless in a fight compared to other pcs and npcs because he didn't have any of the fighting styles.
My last NWoD character was an FBI Agent. Our GM didn't bother with point totals and told us to make characters that we thought were appropriate for experienced military/law enforcement, no 5s unless you had a good reason (The EOD Tech. was the only one with a 5, in composure), and the GM had free reign to make adjustments. I gave my guy a 4 firearms as the FBI aren't slouches with guns and a rank or two of combat marksman. The GM added a rank of combat marksman and some other firearm advantage I don't recall.
Advantages to me should be exceptional abilities like Unseen Sense or one of the appearance based ones. Things that stand out or give you an extra boost in certain situations. It bugs me that you need combat advantages to be a good fighter or Holistic Awareness to be a useful doctor. As far a s things like languages go, sure it's more realistic, but is it really worth the points you have to pay to be fluent in another language?
I also don't like the fact that you can't make a high school student with base starting points (entirely personal opinion) and really wish they had successes start at 7 rather then 8 (this could be because I always get at least two 7s a roll though).
As for the VtM setting vs VtR Setting I liked the fact that VtR had more then one creation myth, had several political entities that were roughly the same power, and the fact that your "Generation" wasn't set in stone unless you diablerized. VtM did have the Sabbat as a powerful external threat, which was good, but it was easy for them to become silly.
While I think VtR failed with the number of clans they had (as I said, I think 7 to 9 would have been good), there were a lot of the VtM clans I just didn't like, often with wacky and unique disciplines. Obten. and Chimestry could have been combined into a power about screwing with other peoples perceptions (i.e. getting to do the villian's slow walk as that staircase just seems to get longer and longer for your victim). Rather then Flesh Crafting or Make people crazy powers, why not a discipline that lets you expand your mental abilities so you can remember something from 3 centuries ago perfectly. Rather then Quietus, why not a discipline that focused on grace and movement so you could move like you knew wire-fu. They kind of went overboard with the transformation abilities when they could have tapped into somethings that might fit more with vampire folklore. Then we had the Tremere and Thaum... moving right along.
Also, is it just me, or did any one else want to shout "COOOOO-BRAAAAA" any time a Follower of Set showed up?
/Rant
Vampire is the definitive game of the 90's, encapsulating the Zeitgeist of the late eighties and mid nineties in a way no other game ever managed.It is also one of the great games of all times. And now, for the first time in close to a decade it will see a new release, in the form of the 20th anniversary edition.
To say I am excited by this prospect is a massive understatement, I hope you'll all join me is a massive cheer of celebration.
Is this an admission that the nWoD isn't making enough money?
Funny, most people I have talked to on here or in person about the two systems tend to be the opposite, preferring the setting and background from the old and the mechanics from the new, especially when you are talking the two versions of Mage.New Mage, I'll give you, is far superior then old. On the other hand it lacks in strong external threats and the layout of the book is the worst I've ever seen. The book is more difficult to read then some books that are in another language. I wish they released a bare bones copy that used black lettering and no watermark symbols in the background. Other then that we generally throw out the setting and run it in the Dresden Files universe, which it does a good job with.
I am going to have to disagree with you.
I liked the flexability of the magic system used in Mage: The Ascension much better then the ridigity of Mage: The Awakening.
Also, the "Atlantian Orders" (Mage: the Awakening) do have a rather significant opponent in the "Seekers Of The Throne." The don't seem much of an adversary because the whole setting suffers from serious "blandness."
I am going to have to disagree with you.I liked the flexability of the magic system used in Mage: The Ascension much better then the ridigity of Mage: The Awakening.
The old system allowed magic to adapt to a large number of quite different mystical belief systems. This was the best part of the entire game.
In the new system, everything is defined in pretty much one way. Also, the "Atlantian Orders" (Mage: the Awakening) do have a rather significant opponent in the "Seekers Of The Throne." The don't seem much of an adversary because the whole setting suffers from serious "blandness."
While setting isn't an issue for me I can at least give old Mage the nod that you were likely to get some Men in Black or Hit Marks sniffing around after you when casting magic. It wouldn't be that hard to convert the old setting to the new rules, if it hasn't been done already some where. Orders, Legacies, and all that are really just fluff that can be folded, spindled, and mutilated all you want. Rules wise I believe new Mage is superior.
Is this an admission that the nWoD isn't making enough money?
From what I've heard they've been doing well with .pdf only releases. I've heard their might be some issues with the company that bought WW out though. This is third hand info at the very least, so use salt.
Is this an admission that the nWoD isn't making enough money?Vampire is the definitive game of the 90's, encapsulating the Zeitgeist of the late eighties and mid nineties in a way no other game ever managed.It is also one of the great games of all times. And now, for the first time in close to a decade it will see a new release, in the form of the 20th anniversary edition.
To say I am excited by this prospect is a massive understatement, I hope you'll all join me is a massive cheer of celebration.
No, i don't believe it is. If you are not making money on your on going product lines, it does not make sense to spend money on developing a splash nostalgia splash release.
Regardless, I am really just happy that we are getting another look at this beautiful old game.
Pity Justin is involved. Since he was the one that was most pushing for the major changes in the setting for vampire that ended up being the new version.
Which new version are you talking about? Revised or Requiem?
|
Pity Justin is involved. Since he was the one that was most pushing for the major changes in the setting for vampire that ended up being the new version.Which new version are you talking about? Revised or Requiem?
Though Justin was part of Revised, He was always upfront that he would have gone further if he had his way. He wanted a Reboot, and he was a Major push with Requiem, so to some of us that loved the oWoD, he was the Bad guy. So I am asuming she mean Requiem.
Now I love the new rules, I just hate that they got rid of the MetaPlot, which I loved. I am looking forward to the 20th Anniversary.
|
Pity Justin is involved. Since he was the one that was most pushing for the major changes in the setting for vampire that ended up being the new version.Which new version are you talking about? Revised or Requiem?Though Justin was part of Revised, He was always upfront that he would have gone further if he had his way. He wanted a Reboot, and he was a Major push with Requiem, so to some of us that loved the oWoD, he was the Bad guy. So I am asuming she mean Requiem.
Now I love the new rules, I just hate that they got rid of the MetaPlot, which I loved. I am looking forward to the 20th Anniversary.
What he said. Justin was involved with revised but he even said he was only allowed to change so much. Mostly it was meant as a rules cleanup than changes. Requiem he was given a free hand on. He also said way back in the day after revised came out and long before Requiem if he had his way he would have killed off most of the clans, the sabbat etc. Basically what he did do with Requiem.
What he said. Justin was involved with revised but he even said he was only allowed to change so much. Mostly it was meant as a rules cleanup than changes. Requiem he was given a free hand on. He also said way back in the day after revised came out and long before Requiem if he had his way he would have killed off most of the clans, the sabbat etc. Basically what he did do with Requiem.Pity Justin is involved. Since he was the one that was most pushing for the major changes in the setting for vampire that ended up being the new version.Which new version are you talking about? Revised or Requiem?Though Justin was part of Revised, He was always upfront that he would have gone further if he had his way. He wanted a Reboot, and he was a Major push with Requiem, so to some of us that loved the oWoD, he was the Bad guy. So I am asuming she mean Requiem.
Now I love the new rules, I just hate that they got rid of the MetaPlot, which I loved. I am looking forward to the 20th Anniversary.
Okay, just curious. I know there were a lot of Vampire fans who did not care for Revised, and I was wondering if you were one of them.
I, for one, think Justin did a marvelous job with revised, getting rid of the secret Black hand nonsense, streamlining necromancy with thaumaturgy, better defining morality paths, giving a better picture of the camarilla as a shadowy and tentacular organisation and not only "the good guys opposing the Sabbath", giving structure and meaning to the Sabbath far more interresting than "devil cultist anarchs with stange disciplines".
Revised was, by far, the version I found the best, rulewise and storywise.
|
|
Okay, just curious. I know there were a lot of Vampire fans who did not care for Revised, and I was wondering if you were one of them.What he said. Justin was involved with revised but he even said he was only allowed to change so much. Mostly it was meant as a rules cleanup than changes. Requiem he was given a free hand on. He also said way back in the day after revised came out and long before Requiem if he had his way he would have killed off most of the clans, the sabbat etc. Basically what he did do with Requiem.Pity Justin is involved. Since he was the one that was most pushing for the major changes in the setting for vampire that ended up being the new version.Which new version are you talking about? Revised or Requiem?Though Justin was part of Revised, He was always upfront that he would have gone further if he had his way. He wanted a Reboot, and he was a Major push with Requiem, so to some of us that loved the oWoD, he was the Bad guy. So I am asuming she mean Requiem.
Now I love the new rules, I just hate that they got rid of the MetaPlot, which I loved. I am looking forward to the 20th Anniversary.
Nah, I liked revised just fine. I didn't like all the changes but I liked most of them. I don't even mind the mechanics of the nWod though I don't like all the changes. I just hated the setting changes for the most part. Of course Justin was loads better than Conrad.
Aside from not using the Masquerade setting what is it that people don't like about Justin Achilli? I lost interest shortly after Revised came and hadn't really been paying that much attention with WoD before that. I can't hold it against him for doing away with a lot of the setting, as I've said. I liked it at first but it got like 3.X with splatbooks IMHO. I get the sense that it is more then a hard reboot that caused people to dislike him as a designer, though. I didn't even know that Mark Rhine-Haige had left, though I should have due to no Tremere in Requiem.
Aside from not using the Masquerade setting what is it that people don't like about Justin Achilli?He was condescending. You would have to read the sourcebooks to get a real good feel for what I mean but as I used to read them I would want to punch him in the face for his attitude.
I have nothing against him as a designer, as I said some of his ideas I liked some I did not. I was not thrilled with the reboot but it actually made sense to me to close the modern system (Gehenna and all) though I did think they should have supported Dark Ages. I can see the business purpose for not wanting to support two versions of the same game though so it never irked me as much as it did some hard core oWoD fans.
Wasn't he the guy who started the "If you can't handle (insert mature gaming theme here) go back to killing orcs!" thing?
Aside from not using the Masquerade setting what is it that people don't like about Justin Achilli?He was condescending. You would have to read the sourcebooks to get a real good feel for what I mean but as I used to read them I would want to punch him in the face for his attitude.
I never felt talked down to by his stuff at all. As a matter of fact, that "F*** it all" attitude is one of the reasons that WWP was, and still is, my favorite RPG publisher.
Also, for what it's worth, I briefly met him a couple of times and he seemed like an alright guy. *shrugs*
|
|
He was arrogant granted and at times by how he said stuff came off like he was talking down to people. I talked to him some online when their chats was getting going, when I was one of their "ST's" to help run the chats. I just really disliked his views of the game and what he thought was good and what he thought was bad. Which was pretty opposite of mine.
Now if you want to talk about guys at WW that had a attutide that would be Conrad the guy in charge of the chats and stuff. Wow that guy. He was so bad Clark and Bill from necro made up a new monster for one of the Tome of Horrors as him.
He was arrogant granted and at times by how he said stuff came off like he was talking down to people. I talked to him some online when their chats was getting going, when I was one of their "ST's" to help run the chats. I just really disliked his views of the game and what he thought was good and what he thought was bad. Which was pretty opposite of mine.
Now if you want to talk about guys at WW that had a attutide that would be Conrad the guy in charge of the chats and stuff. Wow that guy. He was so bad Clark and Bill from necro made up a new monster for one of the Tome of Horrors as him.
Quite likely I wasn't in the time or place to see any of that type of behavior. I wasn't really on the internet often enough back then.
About the only thing he did that make me sad was the lack of Black Hand love in Revised. I was a mutant, and much of Dirty Secrets was cornerstone to my metaplot, but I just adjusted their material to my needs and continued on my bloody little way.
He was condescending. You would have to read the sourcebooks to get a real good feel for what I mean but as I used to read them I would want to punch him in the face for his attitude.
Did we read the same books? It may be you've read them, like me, being somewhat young and took too much pride, like me, of being an independant free thinking and creative mind that would take every suggestion as an awfull, down your throath, iron ruling made to encage you in a sterile vision of what the game should be...
Now that I came back to the books in order to introduce my soon-to-be-wife to rpgs, I feel the tone was quite allright, and not condescending at all - somehow directive, but always about facts like "this is a rare bloodline, so think twice before allowing it for players or your game will loose a sense of mystery." or "This power is downright evil, and dealing with demons is not fun - keep this to npcs, or make sure that if you allow it, the pc will be screwed over and that the player is ok with that."
Sure, you could see those as condescending and say "hey, it's my game, I'll play it the way I F.... want to!" but you could say that forcing paladins to be LG in pathfinder is condescending and directive in the same way.
He had to set a tone for the game, and now find he did it very well. Never said your were not free to do what you wanted, but that the "vanilla" flavor was to be this and that.
Is this an admission that the nWoD isn't making enough money?Vampire is the definitive game of the 90's, encapsulating the Zeitgeist of the late eighties and mid nineties in a way no other game ever managed.It is also one of the great games of all times. And now, for the first time in close to a decade it will see a new release, in the form of the 20th anniversary edition.
To say I am excited by this prospect is a massive understatement, I hope you'll all join me is a massive cheer of celebration.
Q: Is this the beginning of a new Vampire: the Masquerade game line?
A: No, we do not currently have any plans of this nature. This is a unique 20th Anniversary special edition release, designed to be an engaging stand-alone title.
Also Revised at the very least wasn't laughably racist as 1e and 2e Vampire were. Hopefully this will continue on the "Not being horrifyingly racist" line.
Also Revised at the very least wasn't laughably racist as 1e and 2e Vampire were. Hopefully this will continue on the "Not being horrifyingly racist" line.
I've heard this before from several people, and I would like some insight- how was Vampire racist exactly? I could see a few insensitive(or perhaps trying-too-hard-overly-sensitive stuff) in terms of Werewolf the Apocalypse fare, but I wasn't into Vampire too much, so perhaps I missed it.
He was arrogant granted and at times by how he said stuff came off like he was talking down to people. I talked to him some online when their chats was getting going, when I was one of their "ST's" to help run the chats. I just really disliked his views of the game and what he thought was good and what he thought was bad. Which was pretty opposite of mine.
Now if you want to talk about guys at WW that had a attutide that would be Conrad the guy in charge of the chats and stuff. Wow that guy. He was so bad Clark and Bill from necro made up a new monster for one of the Tome of Horrors as him.
In that case, Dark Mistress, there's a good chance I do know you from waaaaaay back in the day(hope I'm getting the time period right!), although I was more active on the messageboards. I went through a whole host of names there, as White Wolf and anime were fighting their eternal war for my time and money at the time and I was more into Werewolf and to a lesser extent Mage anyway, but I think I know what you are talking about in terms of both the guy and his attitude.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
I've heard this before from several people, and I would like some insight- how was Vampire racist exactly? I could see a few insensitive(or perhaps trying-too-hard-overly-sensitive stuff) in terms of Werewolf the Apocalypse fare, but I wasn't into Vampire too much, so perhaps I missed it.
I can't recall any specifics, but several of the clans are very ethnically narrow. Specifically, the Assamites and Ravnos. These groups (associated with Arabs and Gypsies respectively) were openly stereotyped and didn't pull any punches about it. All Assamites were religiously fanatical murderers who hated Westerners and all Ravnos were lying, cheating, vagabond charlatans. While that stereotype continued to hold true into Revised, it was nowhere near as pronounced.
|
|
In that case, Dark Mistress, there's a good chance I do know you from waaaaaay back in the day(hope I'm getting the time period right!), although I was more active on the messageboards. I went through a whole host of names there, as White Wolf and anime were fighting their eternal war for my time and money at the time and I was more into Werewolf and to a lesser extent Mage anyway, but I think I know what you are talking about in terms of both the guy and his attitude.He was arrogant granted and at times by how he said stuff came off like he was talking down to people. I talked to him some online when their chats was getting going, when I was one of their "ST's" to help run the chats. I just really disliked his views of the game and what he thought was good and what he thought was bad. Which was pretty opposite of mine.
Now if you want to talk about guys at WW that had a attutide that would be Conrad the guy in charge of the chats and stuff. Wow that guy. He was so bad Clark and Bill from necro made up a new monster for one of the Tome of Horrors as him.
Very possible that you do know me. I was a ST of the Sabbat game in the HTML days for a long time, player in Cam and Mage. Then also was a ST for awhile for their Sword and Sorcery DnD Java chats for awhile.
|
|
There were times that certain employees seemed be going all 4chan, competing amongst themselves for who could say the most offensive or dismissive thing about their fanbase. There was a sense of contempt for anyone who actually got excited about the game (and for the entire concept of live-action), and that anyone who had grown attached to the previous settings-elements and gameplay notions was 'doing it wrong.'
Given where they took the company, I'm mildly amused at the 'I'm too pretty for this crowd' attitude they bandied about.
|
Also Revised at the very least wasn't laughably racist as 1e and 2e Vampire were. Hopefully this will continue on the "Not being horrifyingly racist" line.I've heard this before from several people, and I would like some insight- how was Vampire racist exactly? I could see a few insensitive(or perhaps trying-too-hard-overly-sensitive stuff) in terms of Werewolf the Apocalypse fare, but I wasn't into Vampire too much, so perhaps I missed it.
Uh-oh, here comes the "Werewolf is a game about HUMANS RAPING DOGS" argument. I'm off for the asbestos suit.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I recall (memory here) that Justin professionally was a good but brutal editor. I also recall from friends who met him at Cons that he was a wild partier and could be something of the pompus ass.
I liked most all of the revisions in Revised* and when Conrad accidentally posted the writer's outline for the African Kindred book, he was the only person from WW who replied to my e-mails of 'Did you really mean to put this document on the front page'? (I was happy to have discovered it, but also felt pretty sure that it wasn't supposed to be there. I was right) He just asked that I don't share it with anyone.** No rudeness, no veiled threats.
So I don't bear him any more ill will then say, Mike Mearles.
*
**
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Uh-oh, here comes the "Werewolf is a game about HUMANS RAPING DOGS" argument. I'm off for the asbestos suit.
Never heard that one. The biggest one I heard was that the Werewolves were furry enviromental terrorists who of course were right, since all the spirits told them so. Even when it was pointed out that the environment has benefitted from scientific advancements, that had to be twisted somewhere in the canon to be the weaver calcifying.
I remember back in the days of the usenets, one of the regulars was actually learned in environmental sciences. Ethan made the mistake of posting a 'feel good environmentalist' rant and she tore him apart. He was writing from a heart, she was writing from various degrees in environmental science and her job (writing air permits for the state).
Finally the argument devolved into Ethan 'screaming' that she didn't care enough and her reply of "No, I do care about the environment. That's why I study and understand it."
I actually got to meet her face to face. One of the better 'internet meetings' I'd had. Lovely woman, haven't heard from her in years.
|
|
Does anyone know if it is true that Mike Tinney is president of White Wolf?I know he was when the merge happened and I have not heard anything about him being replaced. So as far as I know he still is.
Well I'll be darned! I just did a few Google searches and it looks like he is indeed the president.
Who'd a thunk it?
Ravnos was ridiculously racist. "All Ravnos are at least partially gypsy, and as we all know, gypsies are criminals and also the devil: Pick a crime, you have to roll to resist every time you don't commit that crime when you could! Also, they don't have permanent havens and squat where they like, pissing off the government just like real gypsies! Oh, and don't forget to lie to everyone and break promises left and right. That's pretty key."
Arabs have a different set of superpowers in basically every oWoD line.
There was also the Giovanni, who had The Italian Mafia Stereotype Handbook
And don't forget the rediculous amounts of Orientalism, where asian people have their own special Yellow Person Hell, special Yellow People Vampires, all of Asia is literally treated as one monolithic cultural identity...just the sheer amount of "No see it's different because Asia" was horrifying.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
And don't forget the rediculous amounts of Orientalism, where asian people have their own special Yellow Person Hell, special Yellow People Vampires, all of Asia is literally treated as one monolithic cultural identity...just the sheer amount of "No see it's different because Asia" was horrifying.
I think they got a bit better at the end. KotIC had their 'African mechanics' but they were all the 'core clans' I think that matched what we were seeing for Requium.
The "Chinese have a lot of hells, Jack" of KotE didn't bother me as much. As a Mage player, first and foremost I liked the idea that 'the consensus' affected the spirit worlds, and the Chinese influence made sense in the idea of the Chinese wraiths conquoring so much of the underworld. Also I did read a bit more 'local culture' in the books for the different courts.
I read it in the same way I read that California and Texas are both states, but are very different in a lot of cultural ways that influence how they work.
I actually missed 'our vampires are different' in VRev. Course I also loved that Dhampyr, Dhampir and Revenants were all different from each other, but similar.
|
|
I did like that the 'Kindred of the East' were designed after the various other realms of the Garou, Mages, Wraiths & Changelings, integrating them into the entire World of Darkness in a way that the Kindred never really were. It seemed like just about every new supernatural critter that came out loathed and / or was utterly incompatible with the Kindred, who couldn't even visit the various other realms that the other supernatural flitted between.
While the name 'Kuei-Jin,' half-Chinese and half-Japanese, was just face-palm-worthy, I really did prefer how much more a part of the World of Darkness they were, to the sort of odd-man-out increasingly marginalized position of the 'western' kindred.
.
I like the sound of different difficulty numbers being brought back. I kinda hated how the difficulties went up to a flat 7, and then a flat 8, as versions went on.
There was also the Giovanni, who had The Italian Mafia Stereotype Handbook
I liked the Giovanni, but I only knew them from the Revised stuff from which I took them as a band of perverted, incestuous monsters. That they were mafiosi was just an outgrowth of that, rather than something indelible in their Italian roots. But given what I've heard about the pre-Revised lines maybe I was being too charitable.
The whole Science is Bad thing was unbelievably obnoxious, though.