A beta is not a product that has been released to the "wild", and therefore cannot be compared to actual release software.
A beta is nothing more than another promise of something to come. Plenty of software goes beta, and then ends up being changed significantly by release, or not released at all.
I was part of 'Friends and Family' beta and it had a lot that I really liked, though running a game on a VT takes a lot of prep work.
Wasn't the whole digital angle an attempt to save work?
The voice chat has been promised since the beginning.
I can't believe people are so resistant to the idea of a Pathfinder sponsored VTT. It's almost a no-brainer. In fact the only thing that keeps it from being a no-brainer is the actual cost of developing such a tool. I would have to know that before saying it's a must.
"Draw-ups" aren't a product. They're an empty promise.
Reminds me of that Command and Conquer where they released screenshots in a resolution the game didn't support.
Plus, not believing anything advertising shows is the first step towards not running into the screen when the ad shows kids jumping into the screen having adventures. And I bring that up because some kid didn't take that step, instead attempting that plunge.
Again, WotC is big on promise, short on delivery. *IF* and when their VTT is released, we can gauge it's quality/functionality against the other products that have actually delivered to the end user.
Going by their pace, we'll have holodecks by then. And that'll look just like real life (or how real life would look if you actually could do magic).
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So when Pathfinder makes a VT release of their own, will it be be supported for us MAC users too? Kind of a pain when my windows tower isn't in the room we play in (not really an abundance of room etc).
I find a lot of great tools when searching around, but never get to use them in game because they only work on windows :(
VirtualBox is your friend, if you have a Core2Duo+ era Mac.
I'd like to say the reverse is true, but Apple's shortsightedness regarding running its OS in a virtual machine means the courtesy only extends in one direction.
Going by their pace, we'll have holodecks by then. And that'll look just like real life (or how real life would look if you actually could do magic).
Wait you can't do magic?!?!?!?!
A beta is not a product that has been released to the "wild", and therefore cannot be compared to actual release software.
A beta is nothing more than another promise of something to come. Plenty of software goes beta, and then ends up being changed significantly by release, or not released at all.
That's certainly one way of looking at it. I understand that Devyantius used the term "draw-ups", but I wanted to reiterate that we're waaaaay past the draw-up stage. We're at the "Hey, we're playing it and it's actually pretty cool," stage.
Wasn't the whole digital angle an attempt to save work?
I was part of 'Friends and Family' beta and it had a lot that I really liked, though running a game on a VT takes a lot of prep work.
Yes. And it does. The VTT isn't designed to save work over a group that plays in person. The rest of the tools help with that. The VTT is designed to save work over people who can't play in person and are currently wading through programs like MapTools combined with Skype combined with Photoshop combined with a PDF viewer combined with a web browser to get the same functionality.
Of course, you knew this. You just wanted to throw out something that looked like a valid criticism when in reality it was emptier than WotC's emptiest promise ever.
The draw-ups for the WotC VTT vastly exceed anything MapTool can show, hell the built-in VoiP itself is huge.
Huge is a good word for it...
As someone who was trying to handle the MapTool server for our group AND look into a more stable VoIP solution than Skype, I can tell you that VTT + VoIP requires pretty big bandwidth (especially on the server end of things). [Example: 2 MapTool clients + 2 Skype clients can overload low end connections at a single location.)
I would warn people to not count on quality VTT + VoIP solutions without investing in high end Internet connections - at least until IPv6 becomes widely accepted.
How do the voice fonts work? Is "bold" like a booming echo effect, for instance?
We're at the "Hey, we're playing it and it's actually pretty cool," stage.I remember when folks at Wizards said that a few years ago about 4E ...
I do, too. And, of course, it turns out they were right!
Of course, what you're saying is actually a snide edition war jab that ignores the fact that whatever WotC said about their product when it was still behind closed doors, we are talking about a product that tons of people have already played. Heck, you could have played with it if you'd bothered to sign up. The most recent stage of the beta didn't even require a DDI subscription to participate in.
We're at the "Hey, we're playing it and it's actually pretty cool," stage.I remember when folks at Wizards said that a few years ago about 4E ...
Heck, I remember when folks at Wizards said that a few years ago about the VTT itself...
I would warn people to not count on quality VTT + VoIP solutions without investing in high end Internet connections - at least until IPv6 becomes widely accepted.
Dumb question: Why is IPv6 going to have any impact on this?
How do the voice fonts work? Is "bold" like a booming echo effect, for instance?
A voice font is a layer on top of voice chat that modifies someone's voice to sound different, according to a specific "font".
For instance, the VTT comes with a list of voice fonts to choose from. If you want to deliver an NPC's lines over voice chat, you can pick the voice font that best describes the NPC's voice (Righteous Paladin is one of them, I think), and it will modify your voice on the fly to sound different. It's a really cool feature, and it's one of the few benefits playing online has over playing in real life.
I can't believe people are so resistant to the idea of a Pathfinder sponsored VTT. It's almost a no-brainer. In fact the only thing that keeps it from being a no-brainer is the actual cost of developing such a tool. I would have to know that before saying it's a must.
I'm 'resistant' I guess. I can see it would be very useful to some people, I just have no interest in it.
The reason I care about the decision which doesn't seem to have anything to do with me is opportunity cost - Paizo can't do everything and I want them to do much more than they are currently. If they devote capital to a VTT, they don't have as much to devote to the various things they're not doing now (or aren't doing enough of) that I wish they were. (I realise that if the VTT was enormously profitable for them, I could have both - however, I'm skeptical of it ever being a money machine).
investing in high end Internet connections
If only it were that easy...
How do the voice fonts work? Is "bold" like a booming echo effect, for instance?A voice font is a layer on top of voice chat that modifies someone's voice to sound different, according to a specific "font".
For instance, the VTT comes with a list of voice fonts to choose from. If you want to deliver an NPC's lines over voice chat, you can pick the voice font that best describes the NPC's voice (Righteous Paladin is one of them, I think), and it will modify your voice on the fly to sound different. It's a really cool feature, and it's one of the few benefits playing online has over playing in real life.
Neat!
I am also resistant to this it takes the social gaming aspect out of RPGs and turns them into something completely different..Like..dare I say it..an MMO..there I said it.
But hey I seem to be in the minority nowadays..one of those who believes that a PnP RPG should be played with PnP
I am also resistant to this it takes the social gaming aspect out of RPGs and turns them into something completely different..Like..dare I say it..an MMO..there I said it.
But hey I seem to be in the minority nowadays..one of those who believes that a PnP RPG should be played with PnP
I've had more social fun with some MMO raid groups than I have with some tabletop RPG groups. And that's a compliment to the MMO groups, not a diss to the gaming groups.
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Neat!How do the voice fonts work? Is "bold" like a booming echo effect, for instance?A voice font is a layer on top of voice chat that modifies someone's voice to sound different, according to a specific "font".
For instance, the VTT comes with a list of voice fonts to choose from. If you want to deliver an NPC's lines over voice chat, you can pick the voice font that best describes the NPC's voice (Righteous Paladin is one of them, I think), and it will modify your voice on the fly to sound different. It's a really cool feature, and it's one of the few benefits playing online has over playing in real life.
What hogarth said.
I would warn people to not count on quality VTT + VoIP solutions without investing in high end Internet connections - at least until IPv6 becomes widely accepted.Dumb question: Why is IPv6 going to have any impact on this?
Short answer: One of the features (currently - I can see this getting cut) of IPv6 is multicasting. At least that is what it was called last I looked. Anyway, it allows transferring the hub of traffic to another system, presumably with better bandwidth.
For example, a mumble server needs to handle peek bandwidth of about 400 Mb / sec / user at the lowest quality setting. Less for normal usage. Putting it well out of the range of nearly all residential US internet packages since they rarely have more than 1 Gb / sec upstream.
With IPv6 multicasting, you can declare another system as the traffic "server," reducing the groups server bandwidth requirement to just 400 Mb / sec, and offloading the traffic hub to a place that can handle the 2 Gb / sec peak bandwidth for a 4 person group. (Which is why I can see it being dropped as a feature.)
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I am also resistant to this it takes the social gaming aspect out of RPGs and turns them into something completely different..Like..dare I say it..an MMO..there I said it.
But hey I seem to be in the minority nowadays..one of those who believes that a PnP RPG should be played with PnP
No - your point is valid.
The VTT isn't a product aimed for you, just like an electric mobility chair isn't marketed to a person that can walk. If you ARE group-deficient however, gaming over a VTT may be better than no game at all.
Me, I'm all for a VTT, even though I myself will seldom, if ever, use it. Gaming is something I want to do with my friends, in my livingroom. If I were still in service however, being able to game with same friends from, say, deployment in Iraq, Korea, etc., then the VTT has much more value.
Personally, if Paizo does anything with VTT, I think they are better off coming up with some arrangement like they did with Herolab, and focusing on making packets of Pathfinder information available for the tools that are already out there rather than making their own. WotC may have the clout needed to pull off a closed system successfully, but that may not ultimately be in their best interest if they make it too closed. While it may be easy to say that 3rd parties just need a few hours a week to put together an adventure, the reality is that churning out an a quality adventure is not easy, especially if you're trying to do it on a regular basis for a wide variety of groups. By utilizing existing programs, Paizo would avoid diverting resources from their focus, and strengthen the entire community. WotC, for all of its current clout, seems to be overreacting to the initial openness of the various gaming licenses from the 3.5 era, and risks cutting themselves off from the wider community. I could see how some adjustments were necessary, but they seem be having problems finding a comfortable middle ground like Paizo has been able to do for the most part.
I would warn people to not count on quality VTT + VoIP solutions without investing in high end Internet connections - at least until IPv6 becomes widely accepted.Dumb question: Why is IPv6 going to have any impact on this?Short answer: One of the features (currently - I can see this getting cut) of IPv6 is multicasting. At least that is what it was called last I looked. Anyway, it allows transferring the hub of traffic to another system, presumably with better bandwidth.
For example, a mumble server needs to handle peek bandwidth of about 400 Mb / sec / user at the lowest quality setting. Less for normal usage. Putting it well out of the range of nearly all residential US internet packages since they rarely have more than 1 Gb / sec upstream.
With IPv6 multicasting, you can declare another system as the traffic "server," reducing the groups server bandwidth requirement to just 400 Mb / sec, and offloading the traffic hub to a place that can handle the 2 Gb / sec peak bandwidth for a 4 person group. (Which is why I can see it being dropped as a feature.)
Are you sure that's supposed to be Gb (= gigabit)? Either the US has extremely fast internet (Over here, a 5 megabit/s upstream is the fastest I know of, and you can't get that everywhere) or you have your units wrong.
Plus, 2 gigabit per second for 4 person VOIP sounds excessive. I know a lot of people with just a couple of megabit/s bandwidth (and 256k upstream) playing games (WoW, shooters, etc) and running a TeamSpeak server at the same time.
Are you sure that's supposed to be Gb (= gigabit)? Either the US has extremely fast internet (Over here, a 5 megabit/s upstream is the fastest I know of, and you can't get that everywhere) or you have your units wrong.
Plus, 2 gigabit per second for 4 person VOIP sounds excessive. I know a lot of people with just a couple of megabit/s bandwidth (and 256k upstream) playing games (WoW, shooters, etc) and running a TeamSpeak server at the same time.
At the time of posting, I was. :-P
You are correct, I unit shifted. All mention of Mb should be Kb, and any mention of Gb should be Mb.
I would warn people to not count on quality VTT + VoIP solutions without investing in high end Internet connections - at least until IPv6 becomes widely accepted.Dumb question: Why is IPv6 going to have any impact on this?Short answer: One of the features (currently - I can see this getting cut) of IPv6 is multicasting. At least that is what it was called last I looked. Anyway, it allows transferring the hub of traffic to another system, presumably with better bandwidth.
For example, a mumble server needs to handle peek bandwidth of about 400 Mb / sec / user at the lowest quality setting. Less for normal usage. Putting it well out of the range of nearly all residential US internet packages since they rarely have more than 1 Gb / sec upstream.
With IPv6 multicasting, you can declare another system as the traffic "server," reducing the groups server bandwidth requirement to just 400 Mb / sec, and offloading the traffic hub to a place that can handle the 2 Gb / sec peak bandwidth for a 4 person group. (Which is why I can see it being dropped as a feature.)
Multicasting is also done in IPv4. All multicasting does is send a packet to multiple specific addresses, as opposed to broadcast that send a packet to all systems, or unicast which sends it to one system. Other then an increase in the number of available addresses (and the ability of a system to get an address at power on), I am not sure what else IPv6 is going to add.
WE are firmly in the internet era and there's nothing you can do but embrace it. I think a VTT would be huge PROVIDED THE DEVELOPMENT NUMBERS MAKE SENSE.
Now, would I prefer face to face contact with a like minded group of friends rather than VTT? HELL YIZZLE,but that's not always possible.
Furthermore, I spent 2 years on the chitlin circuit in Houston, TX and I'd much rather settle for an online game, than repeatedly meet up with a bunch of unknown people only to find out they are a little too weird for my taste. Many RPG people are extremely socially awkward, and all that can be avoided with a VTT.
WE are firmly in the internet era and there's nothing you can do but embrace it.
What does that even mean? :P
Now, would I prefer face to face contact with a like minded group of friends rather than VTT? HELL YIZZLE,but that's not always possible.Furthermore, I spent 2 years on the chitlin circuit in Houston, TX and I'd much rather settle for an online game, than repeatedly meet up with a bunch of unknown people only to find out they are a little too weird for my taste. Many RPG people are extremely socially awkward, and all that can be avoided with a VTT.
I still prefer to play the game the way I think it is meant to be played: Sitting around a table with friends.
I don't say that VTT isn't nice for some, and that it can be a great alternative to not playing, but that doesn't mean that tabletop roleplaying should go away just because we can do this less personally now...
What does that even mean? :PI still prefer to play the game the way I think it is meant to be played: Sitting around a table with friends.
I don't say that VTT isn't nice for some, and that it can be a great alternative to not playing, but that doesn't mean that tabletop roleplaying should go away just because we can do this less personally now...
Internet Era - people would rather have 500 friends on Facebook or blast out messages through Twitter, than engage in a "real" social life. I've railed against the machine for a few years now, but I know this is the time we live in.
Like I said, I would MUCH RATHER sit around a table and play with real gamers than a VTT, but a licensed and fully-functional VTT should still be an option. Hell it might allow me to play the game more often.
Internet Era - people would rather have 500 friends on Facebook or blast out messages through Twitter, than engage in a "real" social life.
I don't.
And it would seem that many others don't, either. Like a big chunk of Paizo's customers. To me, that suggests not embracing this internet era stuff, but keep selling books first and foremost. At least for Paizo.
That's sort of Paizo's thing, after all - embracing those "outdated" things lots of people claim are a thing of the past. And they seem to do really good with that. Like "tied with the proverbial 800lb gorilla" good.
Internet Era - people would rather have 500 friends on Facebook or blast out messages through Twitter, than engage in a "real" social life. I've railed against the machine for a few years now, but I know this is the time we live in.
No. No, no, no.
Both of you need to back up here.
The time we live in isn't a time of "Either you live on the internet or you live in real life."
That's a false dichotomy.
There are a bajillion people who have very, very real social lives and make the internet and its various social networking tools part of their social lives. Does this mean that their social lives are fake? No. Does this mean that your social life is more authentic because you don't have 500 Facebook friends? No.
I think there's this popular notion that people are "living" their social lives online, and that's simply not the case except in a handful of instances where the individual probably wouldn't have a very active social life even if he weren't online constantly.
I can see in 20 years the notion that people who game with each other actually know each other being considered ..quaint.
And +1 to Erics comment..I hardly watch ever TV now
With both me and the wife working and an Autistic 7 year old to look after we have no social life.(except for my one night a week 3 hour gaming session)
What baffles me about Wizards is that they are sticking to the Microsoft proprietary Silverlight. While it is supported (for the moment) on Mac OSX, it's basically dead in the water on mobile smartphone/tablets. Wizards has backed themselves into a technological corner over the next 5 to 10 years. If we see a Microsoft resurgence in the handled market during that time I'll eat my left sock and film it on my iPad 2.
I have to disagree with Steel_Wind. You can't afford to leave a platform out. Your true install base isn't the player total but the Game/Dungeon Master total.. Without game runners your VTT goes nowhere. I think Paizo understands this better then Wizards does. For every DM/GM you shut out you lose 3-5 players regardless of platform. That changes the market your selling to in ways traditional programs have never had to deal with. This now begins to include Smartphones and Tablets.
Granted 4e lends itself better to being run by a computer. It's boardgame like nature makes that far easier to do then automating Pathfinder. 4e VTT games could be run without a real DM as pickup single encounters or more extended dungeon crawls. Is that functionality currently available though? Doesn't sound like it.
Going by their pace, we'll have holodecks by then. And that'll look just like real life (or how real life would look if you actually could do magic).
Again, WotC is big on promise, short on delivery. *IF* and when their VTT is released, we can gauge it's quality/functionality against the other products that have actually delivered to the end user.
Well, affordable table top computing or AR at least ;)
I'd rather continue playing with my group of friends online for years after we went our separate ways after high school and college then constantly trying to find new groups.
I suppose if you and your friends live entirely sedentary lives and you've never moved or left the state online gaming can seen strange and scary. But I don't think that applies to most people.
I am also resistant to this it takes the social gaming aspect out of RPGs and turns them into something completely different..Like..dare I say it..an MMO..there I said it.
But hey I seem to be in the minority nowadays..one of those who believes that a PnP RPG should be played with PnP
Unfortunately, one of my friends who I would like to play PnP with currently lives in china...I don't. If it can get something similar to the experience of gaming i get at a table, or if can uses this tool in my home games, to improve them, I see this as a good thing.
I can see in 20 years the notion that people who game with each other actually know each other being considered ..quaint.
On the contrary, I think that, instead, the notion that you don't know someone you haven't met in real life (or whom you don't spend much time with in real life) is going to be perceived as quaint. We, as a society, will be making extensive use of tools that allow us to connect with people - in ways very analogous to offline social interactions - in an online environment. Acquaintance, familiarity, and friendship are no longer functions of geographic distance.
Granted 4e lends itself better to being run by a computer. It's boardgame like nature makes that far easier to do then automating Pathfinder. 4e VTT games could be run without a real DM as pickup single encounters or more extended dungeon crawls. Is that functionality currently available though? Doesn't sound like it.
No one is aiming for this functionality. The VTT is designed to be used by a DM and a group of players. Removing the DM from the equation isn't part of the plan.
Internet Era - people would rather have 500 friends on Facebook or blast out messages through Twitter, than engage in a "real" social life. I've railed against the machine for a few years now, but I know this is the time we live in.No. No, no, no.
Both of you need to back up here.
The time we live in isn't a time of "Either you live on the internet or you live in real life."
That's a false dichotomy.
There are a bajillion people who have very, very real social lives and make the internet and its various social networking tools part of their social lives. Does this mean that their social lives are fake? No. Does this mean that your social life is more authentic because you don't have 500 Facebook friends? No.
I think there's this popular notion that people are "living" their social lives online, and that's simply not the case except in a handful of instances where the individual probably wouldn't have a very active social life even if he weren't online constantly.
The only people who seem to think this way are non-digital natives.
Scott sums it up, but I'd like to take it further. The internet in general and Twitter and facebook specifically are very powerful tools. If it where just people neglecting their 'real' lives to live 'fake' lives online, these thing wouldn't be nearly as powerful, but phenomina from Anonymous Vs Scientology right throught to UK Uncut(literally shutting down hundreds of topshop stores across the UK in a single day (because of the owners dodgy tax arrangements) show that people are anything but living their lives online alone.
A digital native with any kind of disposible income doesn't sit in front of the computer to deal with twitter, they do it via their phone, while their out and about, seeing friends.
Hell last night, me, my girlfriend and Ian a mutual friend spent the evening together. We had a good meal, watched machete, listened to streamed music, talked, and occationally tweeted, checked emails, and replied to texts and stroked the cat. It was a great night, and in no way harmed by the fact that we all had our phones within reach.
I find it hilarious that people complaining about "Behavior A" from their opponents while arguing about "Subject B" are displaying that same behavior while now arguing about "Subject C".
I think that, instead, the notion that you don't know someone you haven't met in real life... is going to be perceived as quaint.I think the notion you can know someone without meeting them in person will, in 20 years time, be the source of many jokes told by bots whose online interactions are indistinguishable from those of humans.
Touché.
I never said it was an either/or situation. My point is that many people take online interaction as a substitute for a "real" face to face meeting. Hence the "We don't hang out much, but I talk to them on Facebook all the time" type of thing.
That being the case, it's obvious that online gaming can and will be huge through a top-notch VTT.
I don't where you went with the rest of it, as that was not my original intent.
I can see in 20 years the notion that people who game with each other actually know each other being considered ..quaint.On the contrary, I think that, instead, the notion that you don't know someone you haven't met in real life (or whom you don't spend much time with in real life) is going to be perceived as quaint. We, as a society, will be making extensive use of tools that allow us to connect with people - in ways very analogous to offline social interactions - in an online environment. Acquaintance, familiarity, and friendship are no longer functions of geographic distance.
Social interaction is not typing on a keyboard..it requires the reading of body language and tone of voice..so unless we all have voice and webcam..two things I refuse to indulge in it becomes a moot point.
So call me an old fart if you want but include me out of your digital revolution in gaming..
I can see in 20 years the notion that people who game with each other actually know each other being considered ..quaint.On the contrary, I think that, instead, the notion that you don't know someone you haven't met in real life (or whom you don't spend much time with in real life) is going to be perceived as quaint. We, as a society, will be making extensive use of tools that allow us to connect with people - in ways very analogous to offline social interactions - in an online environment. Acquaintance, familiarity, and friendship are no longer functions of geographic distance.Social interaction is not typing on a keyboard..it requires the reading of body language and tone of voice..so unless we all have voice and webcam.. two things I refuse to indulge in it becomes a moot point.
So call me an old fart if you want but include me out of your digital revolution in gaming..
Tell that to the historical figures involved in the great correspondence friendships of most of the last century and the century before that. Tell that to the many people who have had dear friends who they only knew through their letters as pen pals.
I'm sorry, but your concept of social interaction was on the way out two centuries ago. Communication technology left your world views in the dust before my birth, and it is utterly alien anyone in their teenaged year.
So at your invitation, and at the risk of offence. Your not an old fart, your an obsolete fart :P
Seriously, humanity is more mobile, jobs more casualised, communities are all but a joke. The only way friendships can avoid becoming transitory in this day and age, is by embracing new technologies. I'm having to more to London to get a new job, and I will not get to see those in my friendship circles more than a couple of times a month, down from three times a week that we currently gather. I have a choice, abandon the circle of close friends to the vagaries of fate, or maintain the friendships in an on-line environment. Of cause I am going to maintain those friendships, and this system might be one tool we can use for that.
None of the stops me forming new friendships in london, but the internet, and associations formed through it play a part in me doing that too.
No one is aiming for this functionality. The VTT is designed to be used by a DM and a group of players. Removing the DM from the equation isn't part of the plan.
Unfortunate. That kind of computerized play is one of the advantages of a more boardgame like system. Given the way Wizards writes encounters already it just seems like a logical step to offer "on demand" online games for RPGA standardized characters. Additionally those systems that would allow a computer to run a module could help a living DM run better on the fly games and make it even easier for some to jump in to DMing.
Social interaction is not typing on a keyboard.
Social interaction is social interaction. No matter how reluctant you might be to accept it, you are engaging in social interaction simply by posting here.