It is a low level spell because being entangled isn't that limiting
"The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell."
Yes ... and the character in the pit is even less hampered. They have no penalty on dexterity, no penalty on attack rolls, and can cast spells freely. They can attack anything that can attack them, and are unhampered in any action they take to get themselves out of the pit.
As I keep pointing out, both spells are varyingly effective depending on the situation, but on the balance of things are no better or worse than each other.
Sure, if you insist on stomping into a dungeon with a character that has no skills, only one weapon, is poorly equipped save for melee combat, and is armoured like a turtle and about as manoeuvrable ... then it's a problem. So other than encouraging players not to over-specialise their characters, what's the problem?
You can cast pit anywhere (no plant requirement) it does damage, makes you fall prone, has only a single save, and takes 3 rounds to escape if you have the proper equipment.
Entangle requires plants to be there, allows a second very make able strength or escape artist check, not to mention being able to take half movement to leave the area where it was cast. It does no damage at all and the penalties you receive if you fail aren't all that impressive.
Entangle is a very good, specific use (outdoors in plant filled area) spell.
OK, let's compare them:
Create Pit - Reflex save to avoid, or take minor damage and be knocked prone. Following rounds: either Climb check DC25 to get out, or other action.
Entangle - Reflex save to avoid, are in difficult terrain and must save at the end of each round of movement if still in the area. Can use Strength check or Escape Artist check (at -2) to break free if you fail a save.
So let's put Clunky McClanky in each situation. He's an 18 Str 12 Dex 3rd level fighter in plate armour (ACP-6). He has 3 ranks in Climb and none in Escape Artist, for a modified Climb check of +5 (thanks to armour training). The spell is cast by a caster with 18 in their casting stat, for a DC15 or 16 save.
Entangle Spell: Clunky fails his first save (13+), and is entangled.
Round 1: Clunky makes a Strength (11+) check to break out of entangle, and starts to move. He can move ten feet in the difficult terrain (he has at least 40 feet to go), so at the end of round 1 he has to make another Reflex save (13+).
Create Pit Spell: Clunky fails his first save (14+), and drops to the bottom of the pit, taking 1d6 damage and getting knocked prone.
Round 1: Clunky gets up. Clunky sheaths his weapon. Clunky 5' steps to the nearest corner.
Entangle Spell - Round 2:
Clunky can press ahead with a double move of twenty feet. At the end of round 2 he has to make another Reflex save (13+).
Create Pit Spell - Round 2:
Clunky can climb using the corner to get a +5 circumstance bonus on his +5 skill check (15+). He can double move the climb, to ten feet in height, with two checks. He is now technically out of the pit, and has to make a DC14 Reflex save not to fall back in (12+).
Entangle Spell - Round 3:
Clunky gets free on a single move action to put him out of the area effect of the spell. He then has a standard action left; he cannot charge, but he can move or if a foe is at the edge of the area he can attack them.
Create Pit Spell - Round 3:
Clunky can move and attack unhindered (he only has to make a save if he ends his movement next to the pit).
So that's assuming they make every check after the first failure. What are the odds?
Entangle spell (effectively out in 2 1/2 rounds): 11+ followed by 13+ followed by 13+ = 8%
Create Pit Spell (effectively out in 2 rounds): 15+ followed by 15+ followed by 12+ = 4.05%
The pit causes damage, but not that much, and it is less situational - but then it's a 2nd level spell. You can afford to fail one Climb check and still be out with the same odds and in the same time period as with the entangle spell.
Now lets look at other situations ...
Enemies shoot at you:
Entangle Spell: If Clunky is getting shot at, he has cover while entangled but also a -2 AC penalty, and a -4 total penalty to shooting back. He has to undergo at least two rounds of being shot at if he chooses to break free instead.
Create Pit Spell: Approaching the edge of the pit is dangerous to the archers, so both Clunky and they have cover, but there is no other hindrance on Clunky shooting them. If he chooses to climb out, he still has cover while climbing although he loses his Dex bonus to AC. He is only going to have to suffer one round of being shot at, not two.
Different Armour:
If Clunky's armour is masterwork, his climb checks are down to 14+.
If Clunky is wearing masterwork breastplate rather than plate armour, he is out of entangle at the end of round 2. His climb checks in the pit, though, are only 11+, rather than 15+.
If Clunky is wearing a masterwork chain shirt, those checks are 10+.
You know, Create Pit just does not look that bad in the numbers, bearing in mind that it's a 2nd level spell and Entangle is a 1st.
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You can cast pit anywhere (no plant requirement) it does damage, makes you fall prone, has only a single save, and takes 3 rounds to escape if you have the proper equipment.
You can't cast create pit anywhere, Acrobatics can lessen falling damage, being prone is less of a hindrance than being entangled, and with the proper equipment one could be out in 1 round.
You can create it on any horizontal surface of sufficient size. The pit itself is an extra-dimensional space.
As we went through, first round save or fall.
First round in the pit get up (move action) retrieve grappling hook (move action) your are don't.
2nd round in the pit, throw grappling hook (standard action) first climb check at 1/4 movement takes you to the edge of the pit.
3rd round, move action to climb out of the hole, you have a standard left, which you will probably be using to pull out a weapon of some sort since both hands were until recently full of rope.
Entangle is a very good, specific use (outdoors in plant filled area) spell.
There is no requirement that entangle be cast only in outdoor, plant-filled areas.
"This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area."
No plants, no entangle. No sun, no plants. Most sunny areas, outdoors.
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The story of clunky
Except clunky gets two move actions in a round, not one. So assuming Clunky is dead center of the entangled area he can move a minimum of 20 ft if he uses both movements and at most he needs to go 40 to get out of the entangled area. If he isn't entangled he can hustle (double movement) through the difficult terrain and out of it.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/movement
Or he can just shoot at you with ranged weapons at -2.
As for the pit.
The DC is 25, 20 for a corner but 25 with a double move penalty. Otherwise climb is at 1/4 speed.
Save is even worse if Clunky is wearing any armor.
The story of clunkyExcept clunky gets two move actions in a round, not one. So assuming Clunky is dead center of the entangled area he can move a minimum of 20 ft if he uses both movements and at most he needs to go 40 to get out of the entangled area. If he isn't entangled he can hustle (double movement) through the difficult terrain and out of it.
<COUGH>
Entangle Spell - Round 2:
Clunky can press ahead with a double move of twenty feet. At the end of round 2 he has to make another Reflex save (13+).
As you can see, I already assumed a double move.
You should read things before critiquing them.
Or he can just shoot at you with ranged weapons at -2.
... and his -4 penalty on his dexterity imposes a further -2, adding to -4 as I stated later in the post.
As for the pit.
The DC is 25, 20 for a corner but 25 with a double move penalty. Otherwise climb is at 1/4 speed.
There is no double move penalty. The penalty you refer to is for trying to climb at double speed (ie 10 ft in this case) in a move action.
Action: Climbing is part of movement, so it’s generally part of a move action (and may be combined with other types of movement in a move action). Each move action that includes any climbing requires a separate Climb check. Catching yourself or another falling character doesn’t take an action.
Hence the reason for a double move and two climb checks, one for each move action.
Save is even worse if Clunky is wearing any armor.
If you read my post you would know that I already assumed plate armour - if I hadn't his Climb check would be 10+. Good enough for you?
You can create it on any horizontal surface of sufficient size. The pit itself is an extra-dimensional space.
IOW, not anywhere.
First round in the pit get up (move action) retrieve grappling hook (move action) your are don't.
Or, first round in pit, don't get up. Retrieve levitate potion (move action) and drink same (standard action). Or, get up (move action), retrieve spider climb potion, and, round two, drink same and climb out. Or, any one of several other possible scenarios that don't fit your a priori restrictions.
"This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area."
No plants, no entangle. No sun, no plants. Most sunny areas, outdoors.
Fungus are plants. No mention of the area having to be out of doors or full of plants (your original claim). Plants can grow inside, and green plants require light, not sunlight. Again, if one ignores your arbitrary limitations that serve no purpose other than to "prove" you're right....
Good analysis, Dabbler! Only thing I'm not clear on is how Clunky is getting cover from the Entangle spell while he's getting shot at... nothing in the Cover section or the Entangle spell seems to indicate he's entitled to it. I could see a ruling that it does grant it against ranged, but RAW, there's nothing.
@ citerose: The reason Clunky can't move while Entangled isn't in the Entangled spell, it's in the Entangled condition.
Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force.
Emphasis mine. Plants are definitely anchored to the ground.
Each attempt to break free from the entanglement is a move action (not a Standard action as I claimed before, so it can be done twice a turn, not once). But each attempt does eat up your actions, and means you are locked in Entanglement's area that much longer.
Good analysis, Dabbler! Only thing I'm not clear on is how Clunky is getting cover from the Entangle spell while he's getting shot at... nothing in the Cover section or the Entangle spell seems to indicate he's entitled to it. I could see a ruling that it does grant it against ranged, but RAW, there's nothing.
Dang, I could have sworn it had one, but it doesn't. We all miss things sometimes. Thanks for that! I think that it kind of demonstrates that Create Pit isn't a 3rd level equivelant spell, it's definitely 2nd.
It's use is situational - against some targets it's very effective, against others it is pretty much useless. On the whole, though, it's not doing killing damage or anything close to it, and it's easily countered with a first level spell (spiderclimb). Neither entangle nor glitterdust are so easily countered.
So underground you are entangling them in Mycelium?
Gross but workable.
So underground you are entangling them in Mycelium?
Gross but workable.
I had dwarves making fungus beer once. I could see dwarf Druids entangling aberrations in patches of carefully cultivated molds and things.
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You can create it on any horizontal surface of sufficient size. The pit itself is an extra-dimensional space.IOW, not anywhere.
First round in the pit get up (move action) retrieve grappling hook (move action) your are don't.Or, first round in pit, don't get up. Retrieve levitate potion (move action) and drink same (standard action). Or, get up (move action), retrieve spider climb potion, and, round two, drink same and climb out. Or, any one of several other possible scenarios that don't fit your a priori restrictions.
"This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area."
No plants, no entangle. No sun, no plants. Most sunny areas, outdoors.
Fungus are plants. No mention of the area having to be out of doors or full of plants (your original claim). Plants can grow inside, and green plants require light, not sunlight. Again, if one ignores your arbitrary limitations that serve no purpose other than to "prove" you're right....
"This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area."
If your DM let's you stretch this into any small piece of moss or lichen, that is your DM.
And you only have 3000 WBL and you are carrying extra 300 gp potions?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/potions
It isn't the spell, it is the spell level.
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The story of clunkyExcept clunky gets two move actions in a round, not one. So assuming Clunky is dead center of the entangled area he can move a minimum of 20 ft if he uses both movements and at most he needs to go 40 to get out of the entangled area. If he isn't entangled he can hustle (double movement) through the difficult terrain and out of it.<COUGH>
Entangle Spell - Round 2:
Clunky can press ahead with a double move of twenty feet. At the end of round 2 he has to make another Reflex save (13+).As you can see, I already assumed a double move.
You should read things before critiquing them.
Double move hustling. Which is X2
You can't run (X3) in difficult terrain, but you can Hustle (X2)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/movement
"Hustle" seems to be a fancy word for "move your speed."
A character who moves his speed and takes some action is hustling for about half the round and doing something else the other half.
A character moving his speed twice in a single round, or moving that speed in the same round that he or she performs a standard action or another move action, is hustling when he or she moves.
If you do nothing but move (that is, if you use both of your actions in a round to move your speed), you can move double your speed.
So no, hustle does not double the speed you can go with a move action, even in difficult terrain. You still have to have two move actions to move twice your movement rate in a turn, and can go no faster.
Edit: Perhaps you are confused by the wording of what you quoted? Should it have read:
Entangle Spell - Round 2:
Clunky can press ahead with a double move of forty feet (30 ft base, 20 for full plate, x2 for double move). However, due to difficult terrain penalty, this is reduced to only twenty feet. At the end of round 2 he has to make another Reflex save (13+).
Thus, perfectly accurate. You're both right, and having two separate conversations and not realizing it?
It is a low level spell because being entangled isn't that limiting.When you are stuck on the other side being pinged by arrows and taking fireballs those 2 rounds can seem like a long time.If you are taking fireballs how did you fail the save on a first level spell?
You can move at half speed, attack at -2 and take a -4 to dex.
Not that disabling.
Fireball is only 2 level above a first level spell. The DC is not that much of a differnce, and once you get trapped it is not like the -4 dex which affects reflex goes away.
On the other hand, Clanky McClanksalot may not be limited to 20' movement. Most fighting types tend to breatsplate rather than plate at low level that I have seen, so 30' movement is acceptable. A potion of spider climb would cost 30gp and get you out of the pit almost as fast as it takes to drink it, without juggling weapons so much.
Spell level * CL * 50 gp = 2*3*50 = 300 gp or 150 gp to craft.
Nitpicky? Maybe, but accuracy is important in these discussions; especially when we're talking about counters.
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It is a low level spell because being entangled isn't that limiting.When you are stuck on the other side being pinged by arrows and taking fireballs those 2 rounds can seem like a long time.If you are taking fireballs how did you fail the save on a first level spell?
You can move at half speed, attack at -2 and take a -4 to dex.
Not that disabling.
Fireball is only 2 level above a first level spell. The DC is not that much of a differnce, and once you get trapped it is not like the -4 dex which affects reflex goes away.
What I am saying is you are more vulnerable from a fireball in a pit, since you can't get out of the box. And fireballs generally burn things like, you know, plants.
I think there is a lot of overlooking the need for plants to be able to grab you as part of the entangle spell.
"This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area."
Causes, not creates.
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On the other hand, Clanky McClanksalot may not be limited to 20' movement. Most fighting types tend to breatsplate rather than plate at low level that I have seen, so 30' movement is acceptable. A potion of spider climb would cost 30gp and get you out of the pit almost as fast as it takes to drink it, without juggling weapons so much.Spell level * CL * 50 gp = 2*3*50 = 300 gp or 150 gp to craft.
Nitpicky? Maybe, but accuracy is important in these discussions; especially when we're talking about counters.
And this is largely the issue. At 5th level this is a reasonable expectation to spend these kind of resources to escape a spell.
At 3rd level, not so much.
It is a low level spell because being entangled isn't that limiting.When you are stuck on the other side being pinged by arrows and taking fireballs those 2 rounds can seem like a long time.If you are taking fireballs how did you fail the save on a first level spell?
You can move at half speed, attack at -2 and take a -4 to dex.
Not that disabling.
Fireball is only 2 level above a first level spell. The DC is not that much of a differnce, and once you get trapped it is not like the -4 dex which affects reflex goes away.
What I am saying is you are more vulnerable from a fireball in a pit, since you can't get out of the box. And fireballs generally burn things like, you know, plants.
I think there is a lot of overlooking the need for plants to be able to grab you as part of the entangle spell.
"This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area."
Causes, not creates.
My character is only likely to be stuck in that pit for one round. Entangle will normally get you for two, and by a RAW reading the allies of the caster are not affected if they can get out of the area before round 2. The pit spell has nothing that allows your buddies to not be affect by it.
VS PC: Entangle and Web or better.
If it is a monster they are about even. Monsters may not have grappling hooks or spells to get out with. It really depends on what the DM uses in his game.
On the other hand, Clanky McClanksalot may not be limited to 20' movement. Most fighting types tend to breatsplate rather than plate at low level that I have seen, so 30' movement is acceptable. A potion of spider climb would cost 30gp and get you out of the pit almost as fast as it takes to drink it, without juggling weapons so much.Spell level * CL * 50 gp = 2*3*50 = 300 gp or 150 gp to craft.
Nitpicky? Maybe, but accuracy is important in these discussions; especially when we're talking about counters.
And this is largely the issue. At 5th level this is a reasonable expectation to spend these kind of resources to escape a spell.
At 3rd level, not so much.
Why would your group have a problem getting out of the pit?
As long as there is a rope even moving double speed is only a DC of 10.|
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It is a low level spell because being entangled isn't that limiting.When you are stuck on the other side being pinged by arrows and taking fireballs those 2 rounds can seem like a long time.If you are taking fireballs how did you fail the save on a first level spell?
You can move at half speed, attack at -2 and take a -4 to dex.
Not that disabling.
Fireball is only 2 level above a first level spell. The DC is not that much of a differnce, and once you get trapped it is not like the -4 dex which affects reflex goes away.
What I am saying is you are more vulnerable from a fireball in a pit, since you can't get out of the box. And fireballs generally burn things like, you know, plants.
I think there is a lot of overlooking the need for plants to be able to grab you as part of the entangle spell.
"This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area."
Causes, not creates.
My character is only likely to be stuck in that pit for one round. Entangle will normally get you for two, and by a RAW reading the allies of the caster are not affected if they can get out of the area before round 2. The pit spell has nothing that allows your buddies to not be affect by it.
VS PC: Entangle and Web or better.
If it is a monster they are about even. Monsters may not have grappling hooks or spells to get out with. It really depends on what the DM uses in his game.
Action economy is the same if another character has to use a full round to get you out.
Web gets two saves and give cover if you fail.
"The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts." and "Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition."
So if your reading is the plants only grab foes, consider that if you are in the middle you have to move into an effected area to get out.
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On the other hand, Clanky McClanksalot may not be limited to 20' movement. Most fighting types tend to breatsplate rather than plate at low level that I have seen, so 30' movement is acceptable. A potion of spider climb would cost 30gp and get you out of the pit almost as fast as it takes to drink it, without juggling weapons so much.Spell level * CL * 50 gp = 2*3*50 = 300 gp or 150 gp to craft.
Nitpicky? Maybe, but accuracy is important in these discussions; especially when we're talking about counters.
And this is largely the issue. At 5th level this is a reasonable expectation to spend these kind of resources to escape a spell.
At 3rd level, not so much.
Why would your group have a problem getting out of the pit?
As long as there is a rope even moving double speed is only a DC of 10.
Again...
Fall (damage) 1st round stand up (move action), pull out grapping hook (move action). 2nd round standard action to throw grappling hook and 1 move action to climb (tskes you to edge of the pit if you double move, but not out since that is also a reflex save if you decide to let go of the rope.)
On the other hand, Clanky McClanksalot may not be limited to 20' movement. Most fighting types tend to breatsplate rather than plate at low level that I have seen, so 30' movement is acceptable. A potion of spider climb would cost 30gp and get you out of the pit almost as fast as it takes to drink it, without juggling weapons so much.Spell level * CL * 50 gp = 2*3*50 = 300 gp or 150 gp to craft.
Nitpicky? Maybe, but accuracy is important in these discussions; especially when we're talking about counters.
And this is largely the issue. At 5th level this is a reasonable expectation to spend these kind of resources to escape a spell.
At 3rd level, not so much.
Why would your group have a problem getting out of the pit?
As long as there is a rope even moving double speed is only a DC of 10.Again...
Fall (damage) 1st round stand up (move action), pull out grapping hook (move action). 2nd round standard action to throw grappling hook and 1 move action to climb (tskes you to edge of the pit if you double move, but not out since that is also a reflex save if you decide to let go of the rope.)
I am third level so I probably have 25ish hp. I took 7 from the fall. The bad guys can't come to the lip of the pit because they might fall in also.
Cleric channels. I am back to full, and then I climb back out.
You did bring up good points about economy action, but if the pit is going to allow the enemy to hide it still is self-defeating. Of course the pit could also be used to trap the enemy until the party can heal or least reduce numbers or cut off a passage. I still see them as about equal, just with different stipulations. I don't see any 3rd level battle control spells I would trade it for. If I knew we were doing an urban game I might consider it before entangle assuming the class I was using somehow had access to both.
Pit is weaker at low levels.
Entangle does not work in paved and worked stone areas because there is not enough plants(including fungus). You can still think these spells are broken, especially in America. I don't know if you have enough people who agree with you to change the game. In your home game you can try to get the spell level increased.
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Pit is weaker at low levels.
Entangle does not work in paved and worked stone areas because there is not enough plants(including fungus). You can still think these spells are broken, especially in America. I don't know if you have enough people who agree with you to change the game. In your home game you can try to get the spell level increased.
Admittedly pit is the least broken of the listed, guns being more "TBD" based on what feats and abilities are gunslinger only and what are available for all.
Persistent and Simulacrum I feel very strongly about.
Persistent and Simulacrum I feel very strongly about.
Simulacrum is an illusion so if anyone sucessfully disbelieves it, it melts. What's worse, since it's not really a creature, any limited wishes a fake Efretti grants do not escue material components.
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Persistent and Simulacrum I feel very strongly about.Simulacrum is an illusion so if anyone sucessfully disbelieves it, it melts. What's worse, since it's not really a creature, any limited wishes a fake Efretti grants do not escue material components.
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School illusion (shadow)
A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.
It doesn't just disappear if someone disbelieves it since there is indeed an actual thing there. Since there is actually half an efreet there, using half of his 3 wishes SLA, it is still free.
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Persistent and Simulacrum I feel very strongly about.Simulacrum is an illusion so if anyone sucessfully disbelieves it, it melts. What's worse, since it's not really a creature, any limited wishes a fake Efretti grants do not escue material components.
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School illusion (shadow)A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.It doesn't just disappear if someone disbelieves it since there is indeed an actual thing there. Since there is actually half an efreet there, using half of his 3 wishes SLA, it is still free.
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+1Persistent and Simulacrum I feel very strongly about.Simulacrum is an illusion so if anyone sucessfully disbelieves it, it melts. What's worse, since it's not really a creature, any limited wishes a fake Efretti grants do not escue material components.
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School illusion (shadow)A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.It doesn't just disappear if someone disbelieves it since there is indeed an actual thing there. Since there is actually half an efreet there, using half of his 3 wishes SLA, it is still free.
Simulacrum is one of those things that is left to the DM for odd ball cases. I would like for it to have more direction, but I would not say it is broken. I think most DM's can deal with it. If this one is an issue for you I would inform the players that any ability, that is open to interpretation is up to the DM. If they choose the spell knowing it may not work like they want it to then that is up to them. I am having the same issue now with deciding should I play a diviner since it will be up to the DM to decide how much extra info I can get without ruining the story.
Persistent is really good, but I would not say it is broken. I think it really depends on how your group plays. If it bothers you I would move it to a +3.
Ciretose, I definitely agree with you about the Simulacrum. Under no circumstances should the casting of a spell allow you access to higher level spells than you could cast (barring quest rewards).
Persistent I don't have much of a problem with, because I haven't run into players willing to spend spell levels on metamagic feats (I allow access to the Sudden feats with the caveat that you end up fatigued for a number of rounds as the spell level you Suddened. Fatigue yourself again and you're exhausted until you rest). I haven't run into the rod issue yet.
I just think Entangle is worse than Pit. In most circumstances it's been used, the plants wouldn't be burned away from a single Fireball (trees are generally sturdier than that), and other DM's I've played under have let the plants be entirely unaffected by anything going on (they're magically manipulated, after all). Since I haven't been in too many pure "dungeon" crawls, it's pretty powerful, especially during low-level "travel" encounters.
As far as Guns go, I see it as neither here nor there. It's a simple way to reflect modern perception of firearms. A better way to appeal to historical enthusiasts might have been to give gunpowder a Strength rating and treat the guns as some sort of Strength-based thrown weapon attack with a high Strength bonus, to reflect early penetration and high damage regardless of the user, but allow variable quality of powders.
Ok, the simulacrum won't go away, how about the wishes?
Can the wishes be an illusion?
Can they at least be limited wishes that seem to be full wishes?
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It's a simple way to reflect modern perception of firearms. A better way to appeal to historical enthusiasts might have been to give gunpowder a Strength rating and treat the guns as some sort of Strength-based thrown weapon attack with a high Strength bonus, to reflect early penetration and high damage regardless of the user, but allow variable quality of powders.
I did something like this with my firearms rules. At first, I toyed with the idea of armor penetration, but scrapped it. It just seemed an unnecessary complication. I did, however, give certain firearms bonus damage due to barrel length leading to more efficient use of the weapon's energy when fired. This bonus damage was similar to a STR-bonus composite bow in terms of cost.
These are the thing I think are broken, why I think they are broken, and how I would fix them. I may add more later, but top of my head.
2. Create Pit
3. Touch Attack for firearms.
4. Simulacrum
1. As others have pointed out, your math is off. Also, for the same investment (Heighten Spell feat), you can get +2 DC AND some minor perks, such as drilling through a minor globe of invulnerability or a darkness spell. Those seem pretty close to equivalent deals to me.
2. Everyone can climb, from level one onward, right?
3 & 4. Haven't researched it, no comment.
Addendum: I love this style of communication about our favorite game. Keep posting!
Simulacrum is one of those things that is left to the DM for odd ball cases. I would like for it to have more direction, but I would not say it is broken. I think most DM's can deal with it. If this one is an issue for you I would inform the players that any ability, that is open to interpretation is up to the DM. If they choose the spell knowing it may not work like they want it to then that is up to them. I am having the same issue now with deciding should I play a diviner since it will be up to the DM to decide how much extra info I can get without ruining the story.
I agree with ciretose in one thing - simulacrum should not give a caster access to spells and powers disproportionate to it's level. That aside, though, it's really up to the DM to interpret the rules on this as he or she sees fit. It is NOT up to the player to dictate what they think they should get.
Persistent is really good, but I would not say it is broken. I think it really depends on how your group plays. If it bothers you I would move it to a +3.
It is good, but in all honesty it's not that good. Even if sleep is automatic with no saving throw at all, it's still not better in most cases than deep slumber, for example.
Well the issue with simulacrum isn't necessarily the spell itself. It is with some of the targets. Look at the efreet thread. making a simulacrum of an efreet is not simulacrum's fault, it is a problem with having an 8HD creature exist that has a Wish SLA. A smart GM will simply say "they don't exist so the spell fails" (on the planar binding, calling that on simulacrum would be unfair IMO). After all the bestiary "is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules".
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Well the issue with simulacrum isn't necessarily the spell itself. It is with some of the targets. Look at the efreet thread.
Same with the Master of Many Forms, or the Gate spell, or the Polymorph Any Object spell, or the Planar Shepherd PrC, or monster cohort or monsters-as-PCs or 'diplomancy' builds, etc., etc.
Monsters with crazy CR-inappropriate abilities like 'grant wish,' or create spawn or feed or whatever is why we can't have polymorph effects that give the caster the abilities of the critter they are polymorphing into, or summon spells need caveats about what abilities the summoned creature can't use, etc.
In one direction, we keep monsters with different rules as to what's appropriate for their CR, and get rid of shapeshifting, summoning, mind control, etc. magics that actually allow someone to turn into monsters, summon monsters, control monsters, ally with monsters, play monsters, etc. and end up with monster creation guidelines that are freeform and more or less unrelated to the rules that PC's use, or we go the other direction and try to not give monsters abilities that if a PC were to somehow get ahold of it at that level, would break the game like a crystal goblet under a warhammer.
