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Does the teleport trap affect summoning bringing creatures from another plane? Or does it only affect spells with "teleport" in the name? I'm finding the teleport trap mechanic a little unclear...
I believe it is meant to function against any spell of the conjuration (teleportation) subschool, as well as any SLA or other effect that results in teleportation. That's how I ruled it in my game, and it worked well.
This means, for example, that any attempt to Dimension Door within Renchurch puts the subjects into the banshee cage, which would be a nasty surprise if their first use of teleportation is one person using that spell to get across a battlefield or out of a sticky situation. Luckily for my party, they met the banshee together and at full strength.
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That interpretation makes sense, but the module says that the vampire they meet with The Chamberlain has a dimension door wand she will use to escape, and there's no mention of her ending up in the cage. The module says the trap covers, "All long-range teleportation (including
shadow walk, teleport, greater teleport, teleportation circle,
and transport via plants spells)," so I think the author did not intend to include dimension door. But that leaves plane shift and summoning unclear. I guess I'm inclined to say plane shift triggers the trap (given that it is in the teleportation subschool), but summoning somehow does not -- I guess because the summoning subschool's conjuration mechanism is different than teleportation.
In my game a barbed devil summoned by the guardian barbed devil tried to teleport and ended up in the banshee's cage. THAT must resulted in an interesting negotiation! Any thoughts on how that would have played out would be welcome. The summoned devil did not really have any way "to show proper dedication to Urgathoa or produce evidence of the cult’s good graces." I rolled some diplomacy and the devil rolled poorly, so the PCs did hear a banshee wail in the distance, but I haven't figured out where things went after that. The devil would be long gone in any event. The PCs may come across the banshee tonight as they seek somewhere to rest.
That interpretation makes sense, but the module says that the vampire they meet with The Chamberlain has a dimension door wand she will use to escape, and there's no mention of her ending up in the cage.
To be fair, the module doesn't mention anything about where the vampire ends up after an escape attempt. Assuming she knows about the teleport trap, she'd probably be fine with escaping to the cage--the banshee has no attacks that could possibly hurt her, after all, and she can mist out of there with ease.
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I did something a little different with the witchgates. I had them intercept all teleportation effects, down to dimension door. However...
The moribund key from the previous adventure showed shockingly little use. I added a thing where each witchgate had a specific "combination" - by setting a moribund key to that set of runes, you could teleport to a specific gate.
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Where did your PCs rest when going through Renchurch?
They rested twice, each time teleporting out to the cage, then sneaking off to a different hideyhole each time. They covered their tracks well and used Mage's Secure Sanctum, among other safeguards, so I let them rest undisturbed. Otherwise I would have had the lichwolf and the worm that walks use hit and run tactics on them.
Each time they rested, I added a couple of encounters to Renchurch to represent the Whispering Way reinforcing itself, so they wouldn't get complacent. For example, all the Renchurch Novices they killed on their first trip came back as revenants that chased them around the ruins. Their reactions were priceless--"Oh, crap...we've just been giving the necromancers more bodies to work with!" They put some effort into disposing of bodies from that point on. :)
Also, given the magic circle of good effect in the monastery, does that mean it is impossible to summon good creatures at all, or only that they can't touch the PC's foes in the monastery? If the latter, how is that any different than just having the monastery's inhabitants benefit from a PvG effect?
My interpretation is that every qualifying creature is the locus of a MCAG spell. So summoned good creatures can't approach (or be summoned into) within 10' of them or touch them, and any ally that the Unhallow doesn't benefit--any living member of the Whispering Way, for example--still gets the benefit of Protection From Good if they're within 10' of someone the Unhallow does benefit.
After having to retreat after an ambush by the morhgs and the worg necromancer Lucimar descending into the catacombs, the party is planning to re-enter through the grate past St. Vesbias' tomb. The WW knows the party's whereabouts, so I'm curious about any tips on how to arrange the foes at this point. I figure the lich alchemist will continue to defend his lab, but perhaps the golems will throw bombs at the PCs while they are engaged with the demon in the honeycomb. I think the Morhgs and monks may head over to the grotto to reinforce the monks already there -- basically meaning there will be a battle royale in those chambers past the catacombs.
Any thoughts on how to run that big battle in the catacombs -- strategies of WW monks (novices) in that kind of a battle? Any other thoughts?
Thanks!
At this point in the module, the enemies are doing everything they can (to the point of meta-gaming) to stave off the PCs invasion. The remaining WW forces will most likely take the choke points (honeycomb and the room beyond that splits the dungeon into two paths). Keep in mind that if Lucimar (if he still lives) and The Grey Friar have memorized spells that can be changed to adjust for PC tactics that have been utilized by them throughout the AP. This can include having Mass 'X' spells casts on groups of minions. I had Lucimar use Magic Jar/ Possession to attack them from an extreme distance, and when they closed on his body, minions held the PCs off long enough for him to cancel the spell and retreat. Its sort of up to you as to how easy of a time you think your PCs are having.
Minions I think that would rally around choke points would be all of the Cultists and Cenobites (except the ones in the final room), the Revenants (which can be used to locate resting PCs near Renchurch regardless of most precautions), the Totenmaskes, and Lucimar. The rest would stay in their respective areas.
Hope that helps!
Thanks! That's generally along the lines of what I was thinking, although it isn't clear to me the minions have much ability to harm the PCs. Any mass buffs you would suggest?
I'm not very experienced with magic jar and/or possession. Can you explain better how that works? Did you cast both spells or one or the other? What is the difference? Is the general idea that Lucimar casts spells at a distance from the body of a minion? With both spells could Lucimar fully perceive the battle scene from a couple rooms away?
Thanks again!
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The cultists themselves are not going to pose a credible threat as written; they were one of the few monsters in the module I had a problem with as written. I turned them into Arcanists, but if you run them as is, I recommend Mass Bull's Strength, Bless, and Magic Fang for starters, and perhaps a Communal Resist Energy. With the cenobites, I had them concentrate on buffing themselves (Bull's Strength, Bless, Prayer, Keen Edge, Divine Favor) to make their scythes more of a deadly threat, especially if they critically hit.
Magic Jar doesn't require line of effect to work, so yeah, he can be some distance away (even on the next level if you wanted to be nasty), behind a locked door, and surrounded by minions. Basically, every round (and this can be augmented with effects from the Tyrant's Whispers.. Limited Wish to lower someone's save for a turn?) Lucimar tries to possess one PC. If they fail the will save, he takes control of them, doing what he wants (even commiting suicide and moving onto the next PC) until they can get to his body or he ends the spell. It is an extremely deadly spell.
Thanks! I've never used magic jar, so I'm not too familiar with it, but I think I see the idea now. I think the PCs always have mass PvE up (why on earth would they not, given PvE is one of the most overpowered spells in the game), so there would probably need to be some dispelling before the magic jar plan could be implemented. Currently they are fighting in the honeycomb, with the addition of the alchemical golems blocking both doors and the lich alchemist throwing bombs. We are just starting, so it will be interesting to see how they do. Then I guess Lucimar will take his stand with minions in the next set of rooms.
Right. Definitely an appropriate use for the haunt!
On a separate note, am I missing something or is the lich alchemist's fear aura really tough for the PCs? As I understand it, it lasts 12 rounds, and anytime the fear runs out or gets removed the PC needs to re-save upon re-entering the aura. Am I missing something?
By the way, I really appreciate everyone's help. I've never GM'd or even played at anywhere near this level (currently the PCs are 14th) in Pathfinder, so I'm really flying by the seat of my pants!
Right. Definitely an appropriate use for the haunt!
On a separate note, am I missing something or is the lich alchemist's fear aura really tough for the PCs? As I understand it, it lasts 12 rounds, and anytime the fear runs out or gets removed the PC needs to re-save upon re-entering the aura. Am I missing something?
No, it does exactly that. If they are running around with PvE, chances are that they have access to Remove Fear, which makes the aura a non-issue. But, yeah, if they've never faced a Lich before, it is a nasty ability to encounter for the first time.
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The lower level minions were one of the first instances in my writing where I wanted to introduce my troop subtype rules from my home game in a Paizo product, but it was my first AP chapter and I didn't have much influence to get a new ruleset introduced (finally got them in Rasputin Must Die!).
So, that being said--the Cultist troop from Bestiary 6 (they are drow, but you can file off the serial numbers) are CR 11, and just about right for a substitute for the minions that populate Renchurch, if you want a more streamlined way to run a bunch of low-level cultists.
Thanks, Brandon! I'll take a look. I'm the first to admit that a big part of the challenge is my inexperience at GMing at these levels. The game relies on stacking buffs and teamwork to make minions more effective against high level PCs, but I don't have a lot of familiarity with all that and I can end up leaving it aside while trying to manage everything else!
Hey all. Why is Lucimar able to channel negative energy and what is the damage he does with it? The module lists the frequency and DC, but not the damage. I was not aware necromancers could channel negative energy, but maybe I missed that somewhere.
Thanks! I appreciate the clarification. Yes, he's a pretty interesting NPC. Hope to keep him alive for 2 more skirmishes.
Did any of you change up the Worm That Walks' spell list? The default list in the Bestiary makes no sense for his position as a guardian who fights to the death (teleport, plane shift, dimension door X 2, etc.). I ended up having him prep deflection, and he's giving the PCs a heck of a time -- his high DR and high fast healing, combined with deflection making the PCs hit themselves all the time. He's been a major resource suck for the party before the final battle in Renchurch. Anyhow, just wondering if any of you changed his spell list as well. I think I may have overdone it...
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To match with a previously defeated NPC in the previous adventure, I turned the Worm that Walks into a cleric of equal level composed of flies to fit with the Urgathoan theme. Source severance and the WtW abilities made for a few dicey moments.
For the Soul Haunting effect in the Cathedral/Catacombs of Renchurch, is the soul of those who die within it trapped immediately, or only when they become a haunt 1d4 hours after their death?
Text for reference:
The soul of a living creature who dies
within the halls of Renchurch Cathedral or its catacombs is
soured and corrupted by the cathedral’s malign influence,
manifesting near the scene of its death 1d4 hours later as
a haunt with a CR equal to its original Hit Dice and its
alignment shifted to evil. Similar to a soul bind effect (CL
20th), the souls are trapped within the cathedral itself,
and spells such as raise dead, reincarnation, and resurrection
function only if both the soul and the body are removed from
the cathedral.
I'd rule that they are trapped immediately as the whole structure is a sinkhole of evil. It just takes a tad longer for the soul to coalesce into its new form.
The thing is that failing the campaign at the finale because you went shopping is extremely unfun and lame. Do Thadyne's suggestions so they can still have a good time. Make it hard and tough, but unwinnable just isn't very entertaining.
Party is just now investigating the murders in book 5.
Any recommendations for book 6? I'm definitely using cultist troops in Renchurch.
Well, the big weekend has come and gone! The BBG was one shot and we ended on a rather flat note. BUT I built a wicked version of the Gallowspire that was almost 4’ tall. If you want to check it out here: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2353898/3-14-year-long-online-rpg-conclude s-person
Sorry that the last combat fell flat, but at least they got some awesome visuals. I've upgraded everything in the AP since I know my players and I have six of them. We're still on book one but I've already stated out the BBG and will make him appear in multiple stages in the final battle.
Oh man, bringing back Vrood is a great idea.
My players have managed to avoid killing most named characters aside from him (they got the golden ending at the Lodge, even) so the revenant room would just be dull.
In general the front half of this book isn't very... good? I don't really feel like *adding* more since I'd like to get to the next campaign, but all the encounters up until you get inside Renchurch just suck. Hagmouth is cool but he's just one guy. The Knights of Ozem RP encounter is great... and then doesn't really go anywhere because it turns in to a 9v1 versus a single s&!!ty daemon. Seriously, what's with this? Did they just assume the players would murderhobo the knights on this encounter? Not like you can fail the Diplomacy DCs written here.
The haunts around he exterior of Renchurch are neat but also both out of the way and have no rewards. Plus nobody in the party can actually, RAW, damage haunts - I've been letting them use cure spells and disrupt undead even though technically those can't be used. I'll be making the soldier haunt dude's greatsword be able to damage haunts, because that's cool.
In general the front half just seems... extraneous. I might keep one or two things but then it's really just gonna be combat combat combat til the end. I don't even know what I'll do with Gallowspire itself, since Sey'lok and Adivion are the only cool fights there. (The chase through Adorak will be maples and end with the fight with Marrowgarth, of course.)
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I find the network of Witchgates very cool, so I hope my sorcerer continues their trend of preferring to Shadow Walk anywhere they can get away with it, but I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how Witchgates work. Or at least, I'm pretty sure I have the gist but that leaves some pointedly confusing bits. Additional context: I'm running a 2e conversion, so I'm already planning to adjust how the gates work to suit my needs, but I wanted to be sure I had it right to begin with.
For the sake of clarity, since there are a number of overlapping areas in this spell/effect, I'll be using 'gate' to refer to the specific location the trap deposits teleporting travellers, 'warded area/ward' to refer to the 20mi radius zone around each gate which comprises the body of the trap, and 'network' to refer to the entire county of Virlych but especially locations which are not specifically in the radius of a witchgate but which are nevertheless part of the trap.
1) Somebody attempts to teleport anywhere into Virlych (let's say for example purposes, this location is not within the warded area of any individual gate but is within the ley line network general).
2) The creature rolls a Will Save. If they succeed, they do not teleport anywhere. If they fail, they are redirected to 'Gate A' aka one of the groves (nearest or random, doesn't matter for our purposes). They encounter the gate's guardians and move on.
3) To learn more about the trap/gate, a creature may roll Arcana to learn how it functions, but will not divine the location of any gate they are not already standing next to. Furthermore, using the normal method for identifying magic items (Spellcraft + Detect Magic) a creature can determine the radius of the warded area.
4) Here's the first part that messes with me. By travelling out of the witchgate's 20mi warded area, that gate is somehow deactivated the next time the creature attempts to teleport (whether to a location in Virlych or back out doesn't matter, since they are now inside the network) instead of being redirected to Gate A again, they go to Gate B at the wyrmway. OoC the 20mi travel is so that characters are forced to travel on-foot so they can encounter things like the paladins, but IC I'm not seeing a satisfying reason why the gate only stops working if you walk away when it didn't need you in the area in the first place.
5) The creature attempts to teleport again. Instead of Gate A they are redirected to Gate B. Does it matter if they have accidentally wandered into Gate C (or another Gate A)'s area? Probably not, since the entire network seems to function on 'any teleportation within Virlych'.
6) Now this part throws me. "Each time a caster is redirected to another witchgate, she must succeed at a caster level check to avoid an intense sense of vertigo..." Does this check need to be made the first time the caster is redirected (i.e. to Gate A), or does 'another' mean only after the first redirect? Why? Worse, the CL check increases, "for each additional witchgate the caster attempts to reach with a single casting." How? There is no indicator that a caster has any way to 'attempt' to reach more than one destination at a time with a single casting of any long-range teleportation spell. It feels like the act of leaving Gate A is intended to cause further teleportation to follow a redirect chain first to Gate A, then B, then C etc. but the text doesn't make it clear that this is any different than Gate A simply going inactive.
Is this accurate, or have I missed something that makes the function of the gates (particularly the bit about dimensional sickness) much more obvious?
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My Proposed Changes: I saw somebody here mention the idea of bringing back the moribund key, and I really liked that idea, but obviously you don't want this key being able to defeat the gates by itself (as per the Teleport Trap exemptions) so I came up with a loose concept that may interest fellow extradimensional travellers. After the party first gets sucked into a witchgate, they'll notice a notch in the gate the right size and shape for their moribund key. Originally I thought this would allow the key to attune to that gate, thus allowing them to bypass it, but then realized that it would cut out the entire overland portion of the gate, so instead I plan that this attunement will reveal the 'borders' to the key's wearer, as well as show the path to a partner 'gate' (or obelisk or whatever). It is upon arrival at this location, some 20mi away, that the party will gain the ability to bypass this gate in the sequence, and allow them to go on to Gate B and it's partner.
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Please go into more depth with your understanding of the Witchgates - as I am just wrapping up Ashes and will be starting this one soon - and am facing the same problems you are. I really don't understand the way the Witchgates should work - and so your changes sound good, but I don't even understand them either.
Thanks for your posts! they really help!
Sure thing!
So the book states that witchgates work like variant teleport traps, but if you look at the Teleport Trap spell, there's not really much to it that doesn't get spelled out in the witchgate description already. All the same, it can help to have a perfunctory understanding of the spell:
Teleport Trap basically allows a caster (or more likely GM) to subvert classic teleport cheese tactics such as scry-and-fry by creating an area that is warded against teleportation. Anybody who attempts to teleport to or from the warded area is automatically redirected to a chosen location (which must be solid ground and also within the warded area), so you can force unexpected dimensional guests to appear in a predictable location. The intruding caster gets a Will save to cancel their spell without teleporting, but otherwise has no choice about being redirected. The spell further specifies that 'such a creature' may attempt an Arcana check to realize that there is a teleport trap in place but doesn't reveal the destination (I assume this is intended to mean a caster who just succeeded at the Will save but doesn't know why their spell failed). Teleport Trap also has some typical text about allowing specific creatures to bypass the trap and how to make it permanent, but that's not relevant for our purposes.
The superficial differences from the Teleport Trap spell and the Witchgates is that each gate covers a *much* larger area (20mi radius) and that the 'destination' point of each individual gate is anchored to the gate in the centre of that circle. Furthermore, in addition to the Arcana check to realize that there is a teleport trap/witchgate, a caster can use the usual means of identifying magic items (Detect Magic + Spellcraft) to know where the border of the 20mi radius is.
The much more significant difference is that ol' TB used the power of ley-lines and immortal-godlich chutzpah to link multiple gates together so that you might teleport into the area of Gate C and instead be shunted back to Gate A, despite not being anywhere within Gate A's radius.
In my last post I had latched onto the description, "All long-range teleportation into or out of Virlych is initially redirected toward Virlych's outermost witchgates (area A), regardless of intended destination." Last time I assumed that this meant that, in addition to the individual Witchgate areas, the entire county was also trapped--for example, while there is no scale given on the map of the Witchgates, it's pretty clear that there is no specific coverage of the NE region around Ghorcha Pass. Since then it has occurred to me that one of two assumptions can be true: that either a) even if somebody teleports to a place not DIRECTLY covered by a gate's 20mi radius, they are caught (as I initially assumed) or b) the text assumes that the existing Witchgate zones cover enough area to make no difference to your game.
Functionally it doesn't make much difference which you choose, since eyeballing it on the map, almost the entire Hungry Mountains should be adequately covered by the trap, but it might help your mental picture.
The next tricky part is how to establish a sequence of gates. As before, if you get caught by the trap, you immediately snap back to one of the Gate A's in the forest. Per the book, once you have been to a given Witchgate, you can walk 20mi in any direction away from the gate to get to the border. Once you leave the border... idk, I guess that specific gate decides you have already beaten it, so when you teleport again (and get caught by the trap, since you're still IN Virlych and so are automatically affected by the 'in or out of Virlych' clause) you get redirected back to Gate A, but then get redirected again to Gate B. Then walk away from B, teleport again, get redirected to Gate A (skip), Gate B[ (skip), Gate C.
(if this is getting a bit much there'll be a review in a second here)
The final point of confusion is the dimensional sickness. The language of the text is not quite specific, but I believe the intent is that, every time your party gets pulled into a trap, the spellcaster has to roll a CL check in order to land in the trap without exposing their party to the vertigo. If they fail, everybody has to roll not to toss their cookies (potentially a problem given the gates usually lead directly to a fight), if they succeed, everything is groovy. Now, if you assume (as I do) that the intent is that each lettered gate has a more difficult CL check to avoid sickness, you can basically use the chart
Gate A - DC 30
Gate B - DC 32
Gate C - DC 34
-Three of these are Groves (Gates A), which the other two are unique (Gates B and C).
-If you teleport into (or out of) any of the 5 giant Teleport Traps (OR anywhere in Virlych), instead of only being redirected to that gate, you are redirected to one of the three Gates A, which lie at Virlych's borders.
-After the trees at Gate A try to kill you and you shake off any lingering dimensional vertigo, you can try to ID the gate to learn how to escape the trap--walk 20mi to the border. Until you do, if you try to teleport out of the trap, you'll still automatically be shunted back to this gate (or another Gate A if your GM feels like replaying the tree killing thing at a different gate)
-As soon as you step outside that border, you have 'beaten' that gate, so when you teleport again, instead of going back to the now-empty Gate A, you will shunt over to the wyrmway (Gate B)
-So on once you travel 20mi away from the wyrmway and get shunted to Witherleaf Barrows (Gate C). Once you manage to walk away from Witherleaf, your next redirect puts you in Renchurch (Gate D)
-Renchurch (Gate D) is the final gate in the sequence. From here on out you have to walk to Gallowspire because all teleportation will bring you back to Renchurch until you physically walk outside of Virlych.
Now! You also asked about my personal edits. I technically haven't finished deciding on all the details (and I'm operating in 2e, though I haven't implemented any new mechanics you'd have to de-convert), but the changes I've made focus on changing that 'walk 20mi in a random direction to turn off this gate' into 'walk 20mi in a specific direction to get more use out of that item you got in the last book which supposedly high-ranking Whispering Way use to access their secrets.'
As before, you can use your craft to identify the gate. Instead of learning that the gate has a 20mi radius (start walking), you learn that there is a way to bypass the gate with a specially attuned key--the same key-amulet you stole from a dullahan in the last book (if your party doesn't have the moribund key, you can substitute). Only thing is, the Whispering Way aren't going to make this easy on you--the rune combo to unlock the Gate A bypass is inscribed on an idol/obelisk/statue/shrine/whatever which lies at the end of a 20 mile hike away from the gate.
More importantly, if you look, you will notice that there is a place on the physical Witchgate itself where you can put the moribund key. If you do, the moribund key shows its wearer the way to the idol/obelisk/statue (forcing somebody to wear it for a while). I'm thinking this effect cuts out after 24 hours before you have to reset it, if only to give the party a little fire under their butts. At the same time, though, a lot of people have been walking this path lately, so a good Survival check can be a substitute to help find the path in a pinch.
You travel from Gate A to the Gate A shrine/statue/obelisk, copy down the runes onto your moribund key, and you're all set. Now you teleport again. You are in Virlych so the trap grabs you. Gate A sees that you have the moribund key and the key has the right runes, so it sends you up the line to Gate B at the wyrmway.
I'm personally planning to change Gate B so that in order to find Shrine/Obelisk/Statue B, you will have to travel though a section of Hagmouth's lair (no wonder he's so crabby about cultists tromping everywhere).
Fight Hagmouth, walk your 20mi, and get new keycode. You teleport again, Gate A sees that you have a correct code, Gate B sees that you have a correct code, Gate C sees that you don't and stops you.
(Note, normally you should encounter the daemon-possessed witch and the knights of Lastwall on the way here, since Gate C is in the town and you wnat to have that encounter before then. I'm thinking of making a change.)
Since my party are a pretty high level and I don't feel like more hags, I'm thinking of moving Gate C out to a nearby mountain grotto, maybe with some hazardous terrain to climb over. They will repeat the process, only this time they'll run into the knights of Lastwall. That whole encounter happens (possibly jeopardizing the party's ability to follow the key's magic path in time), and the party moves on. It turns out the witch they saved (hopefully) actually saw something like that in a ruined village not far from here.
Instead of the gate, Idol C will be at Witherleaf, and idol will be a tremendous skull about 6' tall. Possibly that skull will be atop a skeletal statue body. While surveying the wreck of the caravan destroyed by Marrowgarth, the party will get to meet another ancient guardian of the town--a tremendous skeletal monster known as a gashadokuro, undead spirit of famine. Possibly two. Likely using an elite template.
Finally with the third and final piece of the keycode, the party teleports, bounces off Gates A, B, and now C, and gets shunted into Renchurch.
That make sense?
(Wow that was a lot of text, hopefully I didn't make it too dense or dry to bear reading XD)
It's important in any estimation of Tar-Baphon's abilities to take stock of all that chutzpah! XD
You are most welcome! It is my hope now that my party doesn't just forget that they can shadow walk fast-travel and decide to walk all the way to Virlych and skip the whole gate scenario. (My back-up plan is they earlier made friends with the Prince's Wolves who are going to be hunting the region for their cultist enemies, so they might encounter the werewolf pack who will direct them to these mysterious arches they've been keeping an eye on).