1) Sounds reasonable to me. Though you'd want to determine whether you treat Scent as a passive ability as well as active.
2) Surprisingly, no, they didn't. Best thing is that they didn't even try. I like to think I narrated the scene in just such a way as to make it not suspicious, to make it seem like it was just window dressing. They stableman trying to fix the cart was presented more or less like a simple commoner whom the players knew they would need to interrogate for information about the Dark Rider, and so helping him with the wheel seemed a great way to get on his good side and make him more pliable.
I believe under RAW, scent IS a passive ability. That is, when the PC walks within 30 feet of a scent, he notices it. It is a move action to determine direction, not to detect that there is an odor. Is there disagreement on this?
Similarly, and as to the second point, aren't perception and sense motive also passive? That is, a PC gets to make a perception check whenever a foe is trying to hide from them (use stealth) or lie to them (use bluff). I don't think PCs need to declare they are trying to look or tell if someone is lying. I think the GM should automatically make the rolls for them when appropriate. Do you all disagree?
And thanks for all your thoughts on the encounter. I want to make sure I play it right technically, because if the assassin manages to kill someone I don't want to get into debates over rules. I agree that the assassin and ghouls are mincemeat after the surprise round, which is why I was hoping there is a rationale for the ghouls to get an attack in the surprise round.
I'll consider Raith's suggestion to have the attack happen elsewhere, but I think I may want to move things along out of Thrushmoor...
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I believe that in the context of that encounter in the stables perception check would be necessary if just because there are a lot of strong smells in a stable.
A couple of my players have had animal companions or characters who have scent and I'm always very careful not to let them nullify stealth.
Given that ghouls are intelligent I would simply have them rub themselves down with offal from the stable (they're ghouls, they don't care) to avoid their distinct aroma being picked out.
It might nullify scents bonus.
Of course this sounds like the kind of thing I would fight with my players about.
1) Sounds reasonable to me. Though you'd want to determine whether you treat Scent as a passive ability as well as active.
2) Surprisingly, no, they didn't. Best thing is that they didn't even try. I like to think I narrated the scene in just such a way as to make it not suspicious, to make it seem like it was just window dressing. They stableman trying to fix the cart was presented more or less like a simple commoner whom the players knew they would need to interrogate for information about the Dark Rider, and so helping him with the wheel seemed a great way to get on his good side and make him more pliable.
I believe under RAW, scent IS a passive ability. That is, when the PC walks within 30 feet of a scent, he notices it. It is a move action to determine direction, not to detect that there is an odor. Is there disagreement on this?
Similarly, and as to the second point, aren't perception and sense motive also passive? That is, a PC gets to make a perception check whenever a foe is trying to hide from them (use stealth) or lie to them (use bluff). I don't think PCs need to declare they are trying to look or tell if someone is lying. I think the GM should automatically make the rolls for them when appropriate. Do you all disagree?
And thanks for all your thoughts on the encounter. I want to make sure I play it right technically, because if the assassin manages to kill someone I don't want to get into debates over rules. I agree that the assassin and ghouls are mincemeat after the surprise round, which is why I was hoping there is a rationale for the ghouls to get an attack in the surprise round.
I'll consider Raith's suggestion to have the attack happen elsewhere, but I think I may want to move things along out of Thrushmoor...
I've always played Scent as a passive ability. Animals don't have to think about there sense of smell. We've all seen dogs react when they smell something funny. They certainly aren't trying. The orc should smell something funny, but he won't necessarily know what it is. Scent doesn't automatically tell him what a creature is unless he has an appropriate knowledge skill or you as a DM have a reason to believe he would know the smell of ghouls.
For Bluff and Stealth, I use Perception and Sense Motive as passive abilities. They're generally opposed rolls. I do require someone to actively use Sense Motive if they are checking for something that isn't an outright lie, such as determining when someone is uncomfortable or not telling them everything without outright bluffing them.
The town is fun. Get that weak encounter done with. It isn't very interesting. The interesting stuff starts happening once you get to Illmarsh.
I'm not allowing any of my players to use their knowledge skills to determine what the Mi-go and Colour Out of Space are. They're going to have to fight them blind. Same with the slugspawn and Spawn of Shub-Niggurath. I want to get them the whole feel of fighting something new.
I did the same exact thing in not allowing Knowledge checks on the strange alien creatures no Golarions have reliably encountered before, the Mi-Go and the Color. It just didn't make sense for them to actually know about this, even their smartypants wizard.
Technically speaking, Voomer, I could not find a way to get the ghouls to attack on the surprise round save maybe giving the PCs changing the wheels a scratch through the hay itself, which presented too many flaws to make sense.
I treat Scent as passive, but I've had DMs who didn't under certain circumstances. Animals may live by scent, but some creatures who mimic or create the scent haven't developed a lifestyle where it is a constant sensory input. But I never bought that justification because humans smell all the time, just not as well as animals.
Also, yes, Perception and Sense Motive are passive against Stealth and Bluff, but it is best if you make those rolls secretly. This requires you to have the PCs update a sheet of their stats for you every level up, of course.
Raith is right about the encounter. It is meant to be a crude reminder that the Whispering Way is in the know about their pursuit and is trying to stop them, successful or unsuccessful.
The orc should smell something funny, but he won't necessarily know what it is. Scent doesn't automatically tell him what a creature is unless he has an appropriate knowledge skill or you as a DM have a reason to believe he would know the smell of ghouls.
At this point in the campaign, most characters will have encountered ghouls before, in the basement of Sanctuary in Trial of the Beast. Since “creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights”, I’d certainly tell a player that her character smell ghouls within 60’ as she approaches the stables. I think it's a good idea to give a character a moment to shine, especially since the ambush might still happen. (“Suddenly the source of the dead smell becomes clear as ghouls burst from beneath the straw! The cowering stable boy straightens suddenly, and thrusts a hidden dagger between your ribs!”)
Thanks for your thoughts everyone. They encountered ghasts at the Sanctuary, which have a similar but much stronger smell than ghouls. But if the PC gets a good whiff, she would probably be able to guess it was ghouls.
But I like the idea that the ghouls smeared themselves with offal. They know the party has a half-orc, so a smart opponent might have considered the possibility that the half-orc has a sensitive sense of smell.
The scent description actually states, "False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures."
Assuming the barn door is open, I guess when the half-orc gets within 30 feet (assuming strong smell, downwind) I'll say that the barn smells very strongly of manure, as if it has not been cleaned out in a long time. I'll rule that masks the ghoul's smell, especially when they pop out covered in manure, although I suspect my half-orc PC will still complain. Scent is a bit overpowered, so I think it's fair to frustrate it this way.
Did any players die from the slug infestation? That DC 31 perception check is rough. If you don't make it, you get no save for the slug infestation. I have three players infested. The only reason the other two aren't is because they are immune to disease. They have two days until their brains get eaten and the spawning cankers are born.
I was extremely disappointed that none of mine did. The party rogue spotted those right away, and after a description to the wizard she had an idea of how to deal with them and did so. Admittedly, I was hoping for a failure on that check so I could tell them that carving them out of the body would be perfectly sensible.
The monk spotted the slug in the bodies. He made his reflex save. The other players assumed he was the only one affected. They didn't bother to check anyone else. Assumed it was rot grubs or something similar. They haven't checked.
After failing saves and not being affected by the spells, they are a little concerned. They used a commune to determine that some evil god that means them harm is the reason. But they haven't quite figured out it is Shug-Niggurath. They have two more days. They have to wait one day to use commune again.
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Looking for suggestions for replacing the Mi-Go with something else due to me rewriting the plot of the Wake of the Watcher from something lateral to the Whispering Way to actually having them be directly involved with the goings-on in Illmarsh.
I was thinking Intellect Devourers instead of the Mi-go. Any other suggestions?
Would they be attempting to accomplish the same goal as the Mi-Go, using the Dark Rider's seed to summon SN, or does the goal depend upon what you choose to replace the Mi-Go with?
Wouldn't it be possible to devise some relationship (some deal) between the Mi-go and the WW rather than eliminating the Mi-go? Maybe there is something the Mi-go needed for their experiments that the WW provided them.
What is the WW's direct involvement in the goings-on in Illmarsh? I wonder if I might like to add more of a connection in my game as well (we've just started the module).
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Well, what I did is throw out the how Skum idea and try to replace it with something else. I wanted the Dark Rider to come into the town to meet with their contacts in Illmarsh to try to release begin to release a plague that I introduced in Book 1. The prevalent race I wanted to introduce was the Cecelia who were warped by the person that was creating the plague for the WW whom will finally make her first appearance in book 4. The Cecelia are actually mutations or whatnot that were created by (insert creepy terrestial alien creature here) to serve as the plague-creators servants. These creatures explain the 'disappearances' in Illmarsh. The cult of the Indomitable Sea are simply going to be replaced with WW incognito and will also be the stage where the PCs will fight Auren yet again.
Though Voomer makes a good point. I could just keep the Mi-go and leave them as the 'experimenters' as it were.
The Mi-Go are fun and strange. I can't wait to describe their surgical attacks.
Actually, you have a really cool opportunity if you're introducing a kind of strange plague in your game. I don't know what the effects of your plague are, exactly, but consider the following things...
Diseases and stuff can sometimes lie dormant in places, waiting to come into contact with another living creature. The bottom of the lake is good place for a disease to have fallen and lain for a long time. I don't know what the origins of your plague are, but Lake Encarthan here could be an origin point. Either because it was originally "farmed" here from the bottom of the deep lake - all the reason to have a strange underwater base there, possibly near a vent spewing the disease - or because it is an old plague. There's a chest you can find in the setting that was from an older shipwreck. The plague could have been aboard that military vessel, as well, and subsequently unearthed.
This means you could use the Mi-Go base as an underwater facility for the manufacturing and experimentation of the plague. Again, I don't know what the effects of your plague are, but if we're talking T-Virus level stuff, you could even have something similar to the Dark Young encounter at the end.
I had one player die from the slugspawn. And another had to waste 2 hero points to survive the slugspawn. They were infested and paid the price. That DC 31 Perception check is nasty. I still don't understand how so many made it and figured out so easily how to stop the infestation. It was a rough situation for my party.
If your party doesn't have knowledge(dungeoneering) (and therefore can't actually recognize the slugspawn) then the slugspawn could easily turn lethal.
If they do, it can still be pretty amusing.
I'm thinking of my party's ranger, who passed the perception check AND the knowledge check, but failed the reflex save to escape infection, turning to the party's sorceress and demanding to be blasted with a cone of cold =P
My party rolled especially well and saw the slugs in time to smash them. It was the invisible gug that got one of them... and I don't give them good odds at the last fight (we'll see how it goes on this coming Sunday).
I didn't allow them to use Knowledge (Dungeoneering) on the slugspawn, even though the encounter allowed one. I wanted to play up the Cthulu elements as unique and completely new. That might have been costly. I liked the feel of the unique elements better.
Only one of my players made the slugspawn perception check. The encounter called for four PCs to be infected. Anyone that missed their check would have been automatically infested according to the creature. You only get to make a reflex save if you succeed at seeing the slugs. If one person makes his check, it doesn't matter for those that fail. I'm surprised more groups didn't have people fail and get infested. Thought I imagine the Knowledge (Dungeoneering) would have made it easier to figure out what is going on.
Only two players went into the room with the slugs and both rolled impressively on the perception check and reflex save. They smashed them, came out, sealed the room behind them, and told the rest of the party to not go in there.
Well, my party finished the final fight without anyone dying. Got the Druid down to -CON + 1 on the last round, but he stabilized so no one died. Inquisitors are nasty, especially with a bow. Even with the DR 15/slashing, he was dropping 20-30 damage a round. Also nasty - the dire-tiger shaped druid with holy claws and Freedom of Movement... until I just air-walked the Dark Young out of range. The monk was pretty bored as he had no ability to do slashing damage.
Definitely an interesting fight. I had to max out the Young's HP (210) and gave it an extra round to try and gain another sacrifice to continue its presence in this reality but to no avail.
Now my players are all equipping Holy or Undead Bane/Defiant items in order to trivialize book 5.
Everyone in my group uses slashing weapons. They are going to rip up the Dark Young. I have some tactics the Mi-go are planning. I don't feel like playing them like simple-minded creatures the tactics recommend.
I found it fun to have the Dark Young use air walk to get 10 feet off the ground, making it out of range for melee but still allowing its 15 foot tentacles to attack things. Also highly recommend the entangle, possibly even as a surprise action as it bursts forth.
It is also reasonable to drop a few mi-go into combat every round if you're looking for some extra challenge. They have 60ish HP and can do nasty sneak attack damage, plus they soak up hits that would be used on the Dark Young. I think that would have been more interesting for the fight than a single boss monster.
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Actually, you have a really cool opportunity if you're introducing a kind of strange plague in your game. I don't know what the effects of your plague are, exactly, but consider the following things...
Diseases and stuff can sometimes lie dormant in places, waiting to come into contact with another living creature. The bottom of the lake is good place for a disease to have fallen and lain for a long time. I don't know what the origins of your plague are, but Lake Encarthan here could be an origin point. Either because it was originally "farmed" here from the bottom of the deep lake - all the reason to have a strange underwater base there, possibly near a vent spewing the disease - or because it is an old plague. There's a chest you can find in the setting that was from an older shipwreck. The plague could have been aboard that military vessel, as well, and subsequently unearthed.
This means you could use the Mi-Go base as an underwater facility for the manufacturing and experimentation of the plague. Again, I don't know what the effects of your plague are, but if we're talking T-Virus level stuff, you could even have something similar to the Dark Young encounter at the end.
I'm still keeping the Dark Young and probably the Mi-Go. I'm going to ditch the worshippers of Dagon and replace with the WW. The Skum also have to go. I don't like them.
The plague itself is actually a creation of a druid who converted to the cult of Shubb-Niggurath from Gozreh. They plague will infect Ustalav once the Dark Young (and therefore Shubb-niggurath) come into the picture. It pretty much is the T-virus that becomes especially virulent when Shubb is in the realm; those infected by it become undead but this only happens when A dark entity 'empowers' the plague.
Before the 4th book, the PC's have been chasing the Druid in question (she was a rat at the time) and she has 'spawned' other vectors who will spread the plague once Shubb comes into the picture. In the 3rd book, she will burst out of her rat form and finally reveal herself to the PCs. She then goes to the Illmarsh to put her plan into full effect.
The idea the WW had was to begin the undead armageddon their aiming for. The plague won't affect all of Ustalav simply because the druid doesn't have enough spawn to get them everywhere but she's tried to hide them in the most populous centers of Ustalav (Lepistatd, Caliphas, etc.) so that the Whispering Tyrant has a viable 'army' when he comes back to 'life'.
Some stuff from my game:
Slugpsawn DC 31 was un-rollable for every PC in my group, so everyone got infested. They only way they noticed something was wrong was when the bard started using her abilities and they weren't affected due to their immunity to mind effects. This could be nasty for other groups if you have no way to detect the entities.
Undiomede House I linked a lot of the encounters together, with the Marsh Giant, The Vicar, Vizier, and Cultist all joining in at various rounds as soon as the giant was initially encountered. Made for a dynamic and exciting fight. Also, I did something that everyone at the table thought was jaw-dropping awesome. When the Magus utilized Dimension Door to tactically withdraw 50 or so feet (beyond a Blade Barrier, I think) I had the Hounds of Tindalos that are strangely locked in a room "ride" along the currents of his teleportation, dimension dooring along with him inside the room and attacking everyone (cultist and PC) there.
Mi-go[ Right now, I'm having the problems of really high AC PCs not having to worry about the mid-range attack bonus that the creatures possess. I'm debating having a couple other pieces of Mi-Go technology besides the one in the Shredder room. Stuff that duplicates Hold Person, Magic Missle, and the various Cloud Spells could be helpful, especially with their Blindsight. Our last session ended with a half-hit-point Oogglith backpedaling towards the Gug room (its about to engage), with two dead Mi-Go that initially appeared from the first chamber. I'm also having the concern of wondering about how many Mi-go to use exactly. The module seems to sort of suggest with the random generation that you should use as many as you feel you need to, so we'll see what we'll see.
Adding Mythic I'm also going to try this. I absolutely love the Mythic rules, and feel like giving the Dark Young 2 Mythic Tiers and the PCs 1 could make for a really climatic fight. I'm probably going to hand-pick abilities for each PC, but I think that coupled with giving some Mythic tiers to the foes in Books 5 and 6 could prove awesome. I'll post when next we play...
I made it mythic with out giving the pcs anything mythic
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Some stuff from my game:
Slugpsawn DC 31 was un-rollable for every PC in my group, so everyone got infested. They only way they noticed something was wrong was when the bard started using her abilities and they weren't affected due to their immunity to mind effects. This could be nasty for other groups if you have no way to detect the entities.Undiomede House I linked a lot of the encounters together, with the Marsh Giant, The Vicar, Vizier, and Cultist all joining in at various rounds as soon as the giant was initially encountered. Made for a dynamic and exciting fight. Also, I did something that everyone at the table thought was jaw-dropping awesome. When the Magus utilized Dimension Door to tactically withdraw 50 or so feet (beyond a Blade Barrier, I think) I had the Hounds of Tindalos that are strangely locked in a room "ride" along the currents of his teleportation, dimension dooring along with him inside the room and attacking everyone (cultist and PC) there.
Mi-go[ Right now, I'm having the problems of really high AC PCs not having to worry about the mid-range attack bonus that the creatures possess. I'm debating having a couple other pieces of Mi-Go technology besides the one in the Shredder room. Stuff that duplicates Hold Person, Magic Missle, and the various Cloud Spells could be helpful, especially with their Blindsight. Our last session ended with a half-hit-point Oogglith backpedaling towards the Gug room (its about to engage), with two dead Mi-Go that initially appeared from the first chamber. I'm also having the concern of wondering about how many Mi-go to use exactly. The module seems to sort of suggest with the random generation that you should use as many as you feel you need to, so we'll see what we'll see.
Adding Mythic I'm also going to try this. I absolutely love the Mythic rules, and feel like giving the Dark Young 2 Mythic Tiers and the PCs 1 could make for a really climatic fight. I'm probably going to hand-pick...
If you're looking for mythic and Lovecrafty goodness, you might want to take a look at this.
Thanks for the link, I didn't know these were out there! The Mythos one might be a little late for this stage of the AP I'm in, but I could see it being useful for a certain other AP that touches on Lovecraftian themes. I wish there was a Mythic Undead book for Parts 5 and 6...
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Mythic Monsters: Undead is indeed in production, most likely for a late January release.
It sounded like you were already well along in the adventure, or else I would also have recommended this little gem by the estimable Greg Vaughan, intended as a delightfully disturbing supplement to the published Part 4 adventure: Feasting at Lanterngeist. For anyone who's just starting this adventure, though, it's an ideal supplement to the adventure from the hand of the original author.
Sounds like that will be right in time for where we'll be in the AP. Consider one sold already, and looking forward to it! (Hopes for more stuff for Vampires and a certain Ravener)
Why does everyone hate on the Tick Swarm so much its a great threat for high level characters?
My characters hated it because only one of the five PCs could actually hurt the thing. It was the most dangerous encounter they had faced since the Aberrant Promethean. I personally enjoyed it!
One question about the encounter with Oogglith. It's tactics require it to spend several rounds prepping for combat, yet it does not act hostile to the PCs at the outset, and it is unrealistic (and suicide) for it to spend rounds buffing once the fight is on. How did you all handle this issue?
I also want to share this: My PCs managed to parley with the devilfish (she was heavily wounded and in flight and they caught up to her with dimension door). They found out that she felt the skum had turned their backs on Dagon and the devilfish shared some information with the group, in exchange for the group sharing its information. Perhaps inadvisedly, the group mentioned the Seasage Effigy, and the devilfish became very interested in it, due to its connection with Dagon. She now wants to buy it from the group if they are able to recover it. I'm willing to have her pay them full value (I figure she can contact other Gutaki devilfish to gather the funds) and promise to leave this stretch of coast alone (the PCs have managed to start Illmarsh on a path to redemption by bringing in a priestess of Gozreh from outside town). Anyhow, the party loved interacting with the devilfish and it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Any thoughts or potential problems you perceive?
I had it use all of its buffs except for its round/level ones once combat broke out in the Skum chambers preceding the area. Its not the far in terms of distance from its location, so in terms of alertness, it is still buffed but also curious about the interlopers.
The Devilfish idea is pretty awesome. My party just curb-stomped the poor thing, so having that extra interaction is cool, especially since there's a high probability that the PCs will sell the Seasage Effigy anyways. I don't really see any problems with this; there's no other underwater stuff in the rest of the campaign and the drawbacks of the idol assure its sale. Treasure could be anything, Lake Encarthan probably holds endless treasure in its depths.
I had it use all of its buffs except for its round/level ones once combat broke out in the Skum chambers preceding the area. Its not the far in terms of distance from its location, so in terms of alertness, it is still buffed but also curious about the interlopers.
Thanks, Rakshaka. You're absolutely right. All the buffs last at least 9 minutes and it makes sense that an intelligent, albeit mysterious, creature like the Oogglith would prepare to deal with an obvious threat, even if it isn't planning on attacking on sight.
The Devilfish idea is pretty awesome. My party just curb-stomped the poor thing, so having that extra interaction is cool, especially since there's a high probability that the PCs will sell the Seasage Effigy anyways. I don't really see any problems with this; there's no other underwater stuff in the rest of the campaign and the drawbacks of the idol assure its sale. Treasure could be anything, Lake Encarthan probably holds endless treasure in its depths.
Glad you like the idea. Once the PCs mentioned the effigy, it seemed logical the Devilfish, with her devotion to Dagon, would be interested. Even if it might make more sense for her to come back with reinforcements to take it by force, I love the opportunity to deepen the complexity of the story and interactions without actually punishing the PCs for it. Also, I love the idea in my game of shades of evil. A bunch of evil Dagon worshipping Gutaki in the deepest waters are unlikely to pose much of a threat to life on land or to irresponsibly bring an outer god to Golarion (unlike the Skum). Heck, the effigy may pose less of a threat there than sitting on a shelf in a museum in Lepidstadt.
I have another question regarding the assault on the skum tunnels. Did any of your PCs rest midway through? The wizard PC in my players' group is pretty lousy at resource management, and there is one big fight after another, which will drain the party of spellcasting (not to mention the barbarian's rounds of rage) before reaching the final encounter. I don't want the party to leave and then come back, and would be interested to hear your ideas of how to discourage that. On the other hand, I'm a little concerned about them reaching the final battle with nothing left.
I guess one possibility might be that if they start to think about turning back they could hear human cries in common, perhaps even with a reference to the WW -- the dark rider -- coming from the last room. That should communicate the time pressure. Also, of course, if they leave they won't stop the manifestation of shub-niggurath, who will devastate Illmarsh.
I suppose if they reach the final battle with little to no resources I could give them a boon from Desna of some spell re-casting and rounds of rage.
How did you all handle this?
In my own game I had completely retooled Raven's Head into being an intelligent staff, and it flat-out told the party that the Mi-Go were up to something big.
Back at the Stairs of the Moon I'd given the party a set of apocalyptic visions, followed with the chapter boss visions (i.e., any of these could be, but you'll have the chance to stop them from passing), so they'd been wary of Lake Encarthan somehow transforming into an impossibly huge monster the entire time they'd been in Illmarsh.
You could have the skum cleric that now follows Shubby rant about how the ritual is nearly complete and that they will not be allowed to interfere.
As I'd posted upthread, I significantly ramped up the Dark Young (making it a mythic monster directly empowered by Shubby) and then had Desna give the party temporary mythic power to fight it. It worked out pretty well.
What your describing would work fine if you want to keep it lower key.
Thanks, Zhangar. I like the idea about using the skum cleric, and also the idea of the Raven's Head somehow communicating the hazard to the party, although making it actually able to talk probably wouldn't fit my (less-mythic) game. I had in mind your earlier thread when I thought about a (non-mythic) boon from Desna in that last battle, so thanks for the inspiration.
Did your party go through the entire period from descent to climatic battle without resting?
Yes, they did the entire descent in one run and fought the Dark Young in one run. They DID run low on resources, but the temporary jolt of mythic power I gave them carried them through.
Raven's Head being intelligent had more to do with retooling the thing to actually be useful to my party. The default Raven's Head is pretty cool for a melee cleric of Pharasma, but I had an 8 Str cleric of Desna instead.
She wound up contracting with Raven's Head so that it would help her despite the alignment differences. Once the campaign was over the cleric turned Raven's Head over to the temple of Pharasma in Caliphas.
Later on, I had Luvick consistently refer to the cleric as Raven's Head's Bearer rather than by her name.
Certainly no problem in selling the effigy from a story point of view. Of course, selling such a powerful magical item to a very not good entity... well, that's something that could go quite wrong for another stretch of coast line later, heh. Maybe a tie-in with your next group's adventure, a rumor perhaps.
As for the fights, I don't think there was any resting in my group. They took a break after the Colour and then took down the entire stretch of the sea caves in one go. I'd recommend kicking up the weird crazy stuff is going on effects now, some foreshadowing perhaps.
It was suggested that reality start bending while in the caves as an effect of the Mi-Go's summoning. Walls melting like wax, stalagmites writhing like tentacles, minor earthquakes, screams in unknown languages from what look like mouths on the walls, etc. Just use that to completely close off the escape and make it ramp upwards as they move deeper.
You can also use Oogglith to warn them about what is coming up. A psychic 'parting message' as he dies. Pictures of a giant hoofed creature, a shattered dome, a burning city, and something that gives a hint of the timing. Maybe a ship still in the docks getting smashed that they recognize as the Grey Waves, which is supposed to sail tomorrow morning... or the sun being only a few hours deeper in the sky... or so on.
As for the Oogglith fight - I loved it. First time I killed a PC and it was great fun. I had it call for the gug to sneak out, invisibly, and come around the party to go after a back row character (the wizard, who was killed almost twice over by the thing's full attack). I also had the mi-go come out of the rooms in waves; once every few rounds, once Oogglith was nearly dead. It gave a good distraction for the front line fighters who made it hard for the casters to AOE them (as they'd have hit the melee party members).
I think I described the fight in more details somewhere in this thread. Maybe? Or in the Wizard's obituary post.
Minus the intelligence on Raven's Head, my group exploration of the caves ran the same as Zhangar's. I inferred that because of how they were transported down there, Croon may not be waiting if they decide to rest in the caves. Furthermore, I described the weather as becoming strange and unstable as Croon anchored, meaning he wasn't sure if he'd be able to come out here again the next day. I knew if they wanted, they could just leave the caves and swim back with all the underwater gear they had (they didn't have teleport and still don't.. Yeah!). Fortunately, the sense of urgency I imparted from all the omens regarding Shub-Niggurath made it clear that they were supposed to deal with the caves in one go. They also ran nearly out of resources by the end, but the influx of Mythic Power kept them going through the last fight.
Oh, and agree about the Gug, that thing is nasty, especially if your PCs are fighting something else when it comes it.
Thanks, all. I like your various tips for adding a sense of urgency, and I think I will plan on giving some sort of boon in the last battle. I definitely need to do more thinking about the Oogglith fight, which is coming right up.
Certainly no problem in selling the effigy from a story point of view. Of course, selling such a powerful magical item to a very not good entity... well, that's something that could go quite wrong for another stretch of coast line later, heh. Maybe a tie-in with your next group's adventure, a rumor perhaps.
Yeah, this gets to some of the hard decisions to be made. The safest thing to do would be to destroy the effigy, which has no good use, but they would lose a lot of GP that way. To sell it elsewhere or return it to Lepidstadt wouldn't stop some lunatic worshippers of the dark tapestry from getting their hands on it and one day leading to the destruction of much of Golarion. But I think it is fair to surmise that the Gutaki wouldn't be dumb enough to contact an Outer God, especially after what was witnessed with the skum. So, short of destroying it, the safest place for the effigy may be in the hands of the Gutaki, even though it may marginally strengthen Dagon's hold over the deepest waters -- but who really cares about that...?
Some stuff from my game:
Mi-go[ I'm debating having a couple other pieces of Mi-Go technology besides the one in the Shredder room. Stuff that duplicates Hold Person, Magic Missle, and the various Cloud Spells could be helpful, especially with their Blindsight.
What did you end up doing? How many charges did the items have? I'd like to give the Mi-go more options, and I think it would be cool, but I don't want to end up giving my players too much extra loot...
Another question: The module says the Mi-go chambers are covered with sea locks, like at the entrances to the caverns. Why? Even if the caverns flooded, the Mi-go would be fine because they don't need to breathe. I can easily omit this detail, but if there's a purpose I'd like to know it...
Near the bottom of this . The extra cash wasn't an issue for my group, but that's because the Mist Projector got destroyed when the Magus Force-Punched the Mi-Go wielding it into the corpse shredder.
The sea locks seem like they would indeed stop flooding, but my PCs were the type to open every door, so it wasn't an issue for my group.
Thanks, Rakshaka. That's a great help. I see that you gave mythic abilities and a mythic tier to your PCs. I see your mythic adjustment to the monster, but what did you give your PCs? You're not worried it is going to distort things going forward? Or are you going to give all encounters a mythic boost now? That would be too much work for me. Or could you just give a mythic boost for this one encounter?
My players destroyed the crap out of the final boss without even trying too hard. The wizard had died and was operating at a negative level. But generally it was the Inquisitor with his bow and the super tiger druid and the monk punching it a lot. And while I forgot to handle grab rules correctly (the large tiger used grab on an AOO to stop the huge monster, which can't be done because you can't grapple stuff larger than you without the appropriate feat), I also gave it max HP and a full turn of extra activity after they brought it to zero.
Action economy is key here. A full party gets far more actions than a single monster and it can only screw with one person at a time, so it is highly unlikely it will actually kill everyone. I think my party got him down in maybe 5 rounds, max. I was sad. So I used a modified version of the greenhouse in book 4 to kill two of them with a fiendish vampiric hippo (wildshaped druid). That was fun.
If you want to make the fight more interesting, you could give it to actions a round (roughly evenly spaced in the order, so if there are four players, it could go first and fourth). Or you could have it spawn random environmental events, like stationary tentacles that grab anything with-in 10 feet but are otherwise easy to kill. Just to give the players something to worry about.
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With the Mythic tiers I pre-selected the abilities and spells and just handed each player a sheet with their new abilities. I knew if I treated if like a 'level-up' it would destroy the pacing since having players spend game time delving through the book for the best abilities would bring everything to a standstill. This also lets me relegate which abilities the PCs have, since not all Mythic abilities are created equal in terms of power.
What Mythic is allowing me to do is to assess each encounter in the coming two modules, find weaknesses or things that might make the encounter end too quickly, and add appropriate mythic abilities. I'm probably doing this for 1 out of 5 encounters on average in the next two. For example, in the trap that summons four Bone Devils, I plan on using the Mythic one from the book in place of one of them. Konas, Aisa, and maybe one or two others for that module will also have Mythic ties, but that will be it. I am also limiting the recharge mechanic: Mythic Points do not regenerate. They do get new ones as appropriate, and also can use any Harrow points they have (using Harrow point system) in place of points. I am toying around with giving a point back whenever the PCs defeat a Mythic foe.. I think this will help keep it all in balance while still giving the PCs a challenge. I can't wait to give Marrowgarth and The Grey Friar their tiers..
Mythic Monsters: Undead is indeed in production, most likely for a late January release.
Hey Jason, how's this coming along??
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Mythic Monsters: Undead is indeed in production, most likely for a late January release.Hey Jason, how's this coming along??
Tom Phillips says he's just about done with the writing. Art will be coming along soon, so at this point we're on track for a February release, probably around the middle of the month!
Sweet, that will be quite timely for my campaign!(Finalizing the beginning of Ashes at Dawn)Consider one bought when it comes out!