Trial of the Beast (GM Reference)


Carrion Crown

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Piccolo wrote:
How do you guys run time? As in how long travel times, combat etc add up? I know that rolling a Diplomacy check is supposed to take 1d4 hours as per the adventure, but that doesn't cover much.
Sloanzilla wrote:

I decided Morast was like 6 miles away and Herestag was maybe 15. Asked them if they were walking or riding, asked if they wanted to hustle (and risk fatigue and damage) or just walk. Used the travel chart.

Combat is negligible, but a full search of a crime scene should take at least an hour. Gather information checks take a couple hours, but regular diplomacy checks do not.

Day 1 wasn't bad- they actually got home from Morast in time to rest. They didn't find the DC 30 perception check tools, so that wasn't an issue.

They are in Herestag right now at about 8:30 p.m. I'm adding a little time because they have to bushwack through all the corn and because they went to visit the three sisters. They pushed their horses for an hour to make good time, but that's within the rules.

Recently finished the calculations myself.

After checking out the key on the map and eye-balling the distances on the map on page 18, presuming following roads (and verifying that they'd be faster than trackless wilderness on all counts) I came up with the following information and conclusions.

What follows is basically a mildy internet-friendly formatted replica from my handwritten notes:

----------------------------------
DISTANCES:
Lepidstadt to Morast: roughly 12 miles; Morast to Boneyard: roughly 1 mile
Lepidstadt to Hergstag: roughly 18 miles
Lepidstadt to Sacnturay: roughly 3 miles

TRAVEL SPEEDS:
- horses: roughly 5 mi./hour (40 mi. for 8 hours)
- rafts: roughly 1/2 mi./hour (5 mi. for 8 hours)
- walking: roughly 3 mi./hour (24 mi. for 8 hours)

TRAVEL TIME (presuming horses and rafts):
To and from Morast: 2.4 hours each way (4 hrs. 48 min. total)
* To and from the Boneyard: 2 hours each way (4 hrs. total)
- TOTAL TIME: 8 hrs. 48 min.
To and from Hergstag: 3.6 hours each way (7 hrs. 12 min. total)
To and from Sanctuary: 36 min. each way (1 hr. 12 min. total)

COMPLICATIONS:
- Diplomacy to gather information: 1d4 hours.
- Evidence must be submitted before 10 AM.
- Trials run from 10 AM to 2 PM each day.

TRAVEL BY PROBABLE DAY (and adventure time at any given site); PRESUMING HORSES
<Generally: block 3 PM to 9 AM of each day>
- DAY 1 (Morast): after deducting travel times (in both directions, including boats) the PCs have up to 9 hours 12 minutes to divide between Morast and the Boneyard (roughly 4 hrs. 36 min. each location if split evenly).
- DAY 2 (Hergstag): after deducting travel times (in both directions) the PCs have up to 10 hours and 48 minutes in Hergstag (so they can see the place both in daylight and at night time).
- DAY 3 (Sanctuary): after deducting travel times (in both directions) the PCs have up to 16 hours and 48 minutes in Sanctuary (... and the Chymic Works).
----------------------------------

... and that's about it.

Everything except the fact that they'd need information from the Chymic works is pretty easily knowable to the PCs. It's very likely, depending on how well they do, that they may have extra time.

My PCs have horses, hence my presumption.

I block off 3 P.M. to 9 A.M. because that leaves them an hour's worth of flexible time: using the bathroom, actually purchasing something, grabbing some food, discussing things briefly with the NPCs, etc. Those two additional hours are basically a "free" average time for an extra diplomacy check to gather info and other minor out-of-character or role playing stuff.

One interesting thing, however, is that the times on the first two days do not favor your PCs at all for resting at all, at least not without Rings of Sustenance, elves, or both (or something similar) in your party.

In my own estimation, I suspect, however that I was a little off from the initial eye-balling. I'd reduce the distance to 9 miles to Morast and 12 miles to Hergstag, unless you're really aiming to frazzle your players. That'll instead become:

----------------------------------
DISTANCES:
Lepidstadt to Morast: roughly 9 miles; Morast to Boneyard: roughly 1 mile
Lepidstadt to Hergstag: roughly 12 miles
Lepidstadt to Sacnturay: roughly 3 miles

TRAVEL SPEEDS:
- horses: roughly 5 mi./hour (40 mi. for 8 hours)
- rafts: roughly 1/2 mi./hour (5 mi. for 8 hours)
- walking: roughly 3 mi./hour (24 mi. for 8 hours)

TRAVEL TIME (presuming horses and rafts):
To and from Morast: 1.8 hours each way (3 hrs. 36 min. total)
* To and from the Boneyard: 2 hours each way (4 hrs. total)
- TOTAL TIME: 7 hrs. 36 min.
To and from Hergstag: 2.4 hours each way (4 hrs. 48 min. total)
To and from Sanctuary: 36 min. each way (1 hr. 12 min. total)

COMPLICATIONS:
- Diplomacy to gather information: 1d4 hours.
- Evidence must be submitted before 10 AM.
- Trials run from 10 AM to 2 PM each day.

TRAVEL BY PROBABLE DAY (and adventure time at any given site)
<Generally: block 3 PM to 9 AM of each day: 18 hrs/day>
- DAY 1 (Morast): after deducting travel times (in both directions, including boats) the PCs have up to 10 hours 24 minutes to divide between Morast and the Boneyard (roughly 5 hrs. 12 min. each location if split evenly).
- DAY 2 (Hergstag): after deducting travel times (in both directions) the PCs have up to 13 hours and 12 minutes in Hergstag (so they can see the place both in daylight and at night time).
- DAY 3 (Sanctuary): after deducting travel times (in both directions) the PCs have up to 16 hours and 48 minutes in Sanctuary (... and the Chymic Works).
----------------------------------

So, I hope that helps!


Part of the fun here is getting your player characters to run without sleep for a bit. Make them a bit more worried about resources and perhaps dividing the party.

In my group, the bard was left to do the trial presentations while the wizard stays at the inn getting rest (if he had spells to recover) while the remaining characters went off to do exploration and investigation in town (tracking down the surgeon tools for example). It went reasonably well and doubly so because the player of the bard had to miss a few games in a row, so he didn't have to sit there watching everyone else do things.


I've actually explained this to my player. Since she rarely has time these days, and tends to be very structured, I've explained that - most likely, depending on her choices, she'll not get much sleep, if any at all. With that in mind, she'll handle the whole thing better, and it'll feel less like GM "pushing" and more like "here's the flow of the story and events" especially since I can count on her buy-in to the whole thing.


Hey guys. A question that I'm having trouble answering...what did Auren Vrood purchase from Vorkstag and Grine? It says his name is in their ledger, but I cannot find why that is the case...

Thanks!


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Tom McNulty wrote:

Hey guys. A question that I'm having trouble answering...what did Auren Vrood purchase from Vorkstag and Grine? It says his name is in their ledger, but I cannot find why that is the case...

Thanks!

If I recall correctly, he bought bodies to add to the growing undead army in Feldgrau and/or around Gallowspire


Did anyone else have trouble in Castle Caromarc with absurdly high DC's? Towards the end, they got up to 30-35!

Sovereign Court

Piccolo wrote:
Did anyone else have trouble in Castle Caromarc with absurdly high DC's? Towards the end, they got up to 30-35!

Any examples? Its been awhile since I ran CC. I dont rememebr anything being too difficult.


Yes, there was a trap or two that had that high of a dc, along with perception checks that were outrageous. You will find them in the last bit of the adventure where they enter Caromarc.


I think this was actually covered earlier in this thread. Were I not so lazy, I might well have actually looked for it.

EDIT: Ah, I was thinking of these two posts, instead. Still, those might help.


The trap on the bridge was pretty bad. I think I rolled something like a 31 to detect it, and still failed. If it's that high, why even bother making it a trap? They obviously intended you to fight the thing.

And of course that just brought up another issue of that fight being crappy for anyone without decent ranged abilities.

Silver Crusade

Yes, but for me that was kinda the point of the fight.

Except for the Ranger nobodoy had any ranged weapons, so the fight begun with only the sorcerer and the ranger being able to deal damage and the group had to think fast to even the battlefield. They solved it by retreating deeper into the room to force the creature to land.

And they hit it with a grease. So the bow was gone from round 1. But even if it still had the bow, I'm sure they would've found a solution like using a table as cover.

When they returned to the city they ensured that everybody got a ranged weapon. It was a valuable learning experience ;)


I'm getting ready to run the final fight of the module and I want to make sure that I am reading this correctly as this is the first Pathfinder AP that I'm running.

Spoiler:

Aberant Promethean: Attack +21; CMB +29 (grapple); CMD 35
The Beast: AC 24; CMD 30; CMB 23

The AP will hit The Beast on a 3+ and automatically grapple. The Beast can then only break free on a 12+.

Even if the arcanist is running The Beast with a +7 AC, it seems that the main purpose of The Beast is going to be trying up the Paralytic Tentacles.

Correct, or am I getting something wrong?

Thanks!


Although not RAW, are you including the RAI of the Beast's stat increases due to rage? (I don't have my books in front of me at present.)


Yes. Though the Beast is a Construct, he has an open mind and can be subject to mind-affecting effects, such as morale bonuses like that provided by Rage. It should be noted that he can also be affected by any mind-affecting powers your PCs might possess that don't have SR like Bardic Music and other powers (some witch hexes).


Griffyn Maddocks wrote:
The AP will hit The Beast on a 3+ and automatically grapple. The Beast can then only break free on a 12+.

Would the Beast need to break free? Surely he can full-attack while grappled?


Rakshaka wrote:

Yes. Though the Beast is a Construct, he has an open mind and can be subject to mind-affecting effects, such as morale bonuses like that provided by Rage. It should be noted that he can also be affected by any mind-affecting powers your PCs might possess that don't have SR like Bardic Music and other powers (some witch hexes).

Yes, but when he's controlled, he loses his mind - literally. He trades his INT for "INT -" so I was curious if you continued to give that to him even during the time he's controlled.

I do recall reading it and thinking, "Yeah, the Beast really isn't the equal of the Aberrant Promethean" though, again, I'm not looking at my books right now, and I'm a bit fuzzy feeling from sleep deprivation. (Someday, my sleeeeeeeeep will cooooooooooommmmeee~!) :)

The clear intent is that the Beast is roughly equal and under the benefits of rage. If the numbers don't match this, even given that, one of the things to consider is your party buffers.

It may well be that they have spells and other benefits to more than make up for the disparity between the two? You may well find a way to hint at it, or even explicitly state it, depending on your table's style.


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Yeah, he doesn't need to break free of the grapple, he can still deliver full attacks with natural weapons. I believe the whole idea is for the pair to be tearing at each other with tooth, claw, fist, and tentacle while the players rush to the rooftop.

Or your players could be like my players and just bumrush the entire tower, ignore the attempt to explain the device on the roof, and just destroy an APL+3 (or even +4) in less than five rounds without anyone dying (so close). I mean, whatever works for you guys, heh.


Thanks for all of the replies.

Tacticslion wrote:
Although not RAW, are you including the RAI of the Beast's stat increases due to rage? (I don't have my books in front of me at present.)

Yes, those are the numbers with the rage increases.

Matthew Downie wrote:
Would the Beast need to break free? Surely he can full-attack while grappled?

Sure, The Beast can still full-attack, but if the grapple is not broken the AP will Constrict (RAW: "A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage)."). So that's 4d6+9 for the Slam plus 4d6+9 for the Constrict. That's an average of 46 points per round. Even if I declare each a separate attack and apply DR twice, that's still 36 points per round. That'll kill The Beast in under 4 rounds.

Tacticslion wrote:

The clear intent is that the Beast is roughly equal and under the benefits of rage. If the numbers don't match this, even given that, one of the things to consider is your party buffers.

It may well be that they have spells and other benefits to more than make up for the disparity between the two? You may well find a way to hint at it, or even explicitly state it, depending on your table's style.

The only buffs the players could offer would be spells and that is a problem with the Immunity to Magic. I could rule that the Immunity could be dropped while The Beast is being controlled so that the Cleric can hit him with a Freedom of Movement, but that leaves a flat taste in my mouth.

I was hoping to hand a character sheet for The Beast to the player using the Bondslave Thrall, but it is starting to sound like I'm going to have to make the final confrontation an extended cinematic. <sigh>


Griffyn Maddocks wrote:
Sure, The Beast can still full-attack, but if the grapple is not broken the AP will Constrict (RAW: "A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage)."). So that's 4d6+9 for the Slam plus 4d6+9 for the Constrict. That's an average of 46 points per round. Even if I declare each a separate attack and apply DR twice, that's still 36 points per round. That'll kill The Beast in under 4 rounds.

The beast will be doing almost as much damage to the Promethean. If the rest of the party can help out a just little, like doing ten points of damage total per round between them, the Beast should win.


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Constrict and the slam are separate damage sources, so the Beast's DR would kick in twice. It really depends on whether or not you want the Beast to survive. Even if the Promethean kills him, he'd have done enough damage that the party should be able to finish the fight.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Griffyn Maddocks wrote:
Sure, The Beast can still full-attack, but if the grapple is not broken the AP will Constrict (RAW: "A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage)."). So that's 4d6+9 for the Slam plus 4d6+9 for the Constrict. That's an average of 46 points per round. Even if I declare each a separate attack and apply DR twice, that's still 36 points per round. That'll kill The Beast in under 4 rounds.
The beast will be doing almost as much damage to the Promethean. If the rest of the party can help out a just little, like doing ten points of damage total per round between them, the Beast should win.

While grappled (-2 to hit), The Beast would only do an average of 13.5 points per round with his Ogre Hook.

I ran the numbers and without the party assisting, The Beast is dead in round 5 while the AP would last until round 8. My party should be able to close the gap.

That makes me feel better because it looks to be an epic fight that could not be won without The Beast, but The Beast couldn't win it on his own either.


i dropped 30 hit points, got rid of the stupid tentacles and constrict abilities and didn't even need the beast (rolled stats, but everyone was 10 years old so sub-optimal group tactics so it evened out)


captain yesterday wrote:
i dropped 30 hit points, got rid of the stupid tentacles and constrict abilities and didn't even need the beast (rolled stats, but everyone was 10 years old so sub-optimal group tactics so it evened out)

The tentacles may be a boon if my party thinks. They do less damage, so if The Beast is transferred there he'll last longer and he's immune to the poison. As long as the only other target is a player with Freedom of Movement cast on them, they should do well. If not, the constrict damage will kill any of my players in the round after the grapple. Crunch... next!


Griffyn Maddocks wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
i dropped 30 hit points, got rid of the stupid tentacles and constrict abilities and didn't even need the beast (rolled stats, but everyone was 10 years old so sub-optimal group tactics so it evened out)
The tentacles may be a boon if my party thinks. They do less damage, so if The Beast is transferred there he'll last longer and he's immune to the poison. As long as the only other target is a player with Freedom of Movement cast on them, they should do well. If not, the constrict damage will kill any of my players in the round after the grapple. Crunch... next!

you do realize i said i got rid of all those right? the beast, constrict, tentacles the whole shebang


captain yesterday wrote:
you do realize i said i got rid of all those right? the beast, constrict, tentacles the whole shebang

Yup. That's not a bad idea, but I think I'm leaning towards keeping all of that. It'll be nice to have the PCs not be able to defeat everything in their path. It's also nice that The Beast couldn't just win on its own making the PCs irrelevant.

I just had a thought that if the PCs decide to have the Rogue run the Bondslave giving it Sneak Attack and they flank the AP, it'll be a slaughter...


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Griffyn Maddocks wrote:
While grappled (-2 to hit), The Beast would only do an average of 13.5 points per round with his Ogre Hook.

The Beast power attacks with his ogre hook for an average of 31 points each hit, reduced to 21 by the AP’s DR. He hits the AP’s AC 65% of the time with his first attack, for an average of 13.65 damage. On a full attack, he does 11.55 more damage on average. These numbers go up with any buffs the party can provide, such as flanking.

The Beast can’t use his ogre hook while grappled, so his blows drop to his slam attack, averaging 24 points of damage on a hit, reduced to 14 by the AP’s DR, so its full attack will do 16.8 damage to the AP every round, assuming the Beast is smart enough not to use his shock amulet. (The AP’s dex penalty when grappling cancels out the Beast’s penalty to hit it.) Once the AP grapples the Beast, it can no longer make attacks of opportunity, so the party has much more freedom to act offensively, almost certainly flanking with the Beast; it also will also benefit from the AP’s dex penalty while grappling.

The Beast failing a save versus the AP’s panic moan would be pretty bad, but that’s only a 20% chance. He’s immune its nausea moan and paralysis secretions, but the AP doesn’t know that and might well waste an action on those. The AP should probably see the Beast as the biggest threat and focus on him until he is dead, which means the Beast will be a 118 hit point meat shield for the party.

The Beast should be able to knock off around half the AP’s hit points before it kills him. He is unlikely kill it alone, as are most PC parties (Murphy’s Paradox’s experience aside). Working together, they have the advantage, especially if the PCs have the wits to keep the AP slowed with fire or cold damage. Other clever things they might do include healing the Beast with electricity, shutting down the storm so the AP doesn’t get healed by stray bolts, sniping the AP with adamantine blanched missiles (there’s some blanch at Vorkstag & Grines, if they haven’t bought any), nonmagically buffing and aiding the Beast. But even if they can’t think of anything better to do than beat it with sticks, they will have a chance to do a lot of damage before the Beast succumbs.

It should be a tough, memorable fight with the Beast’s help. It should be nearly unwinnable without it. Remember that the AP is unintelligent, but that means it can’t learn new behaviors, not that it isn’t a instinctive killing machine. It can and will pursue attackers trying hit and run tactics, can and will take cover from opponents it can’t reach. Look up the Web ability and see how it is different from the Web spell--I’m willing to bet Murphy’s Paradox didn’t have his players’ Lantern Archons roll to spot or escape them :).


For reference, the five PCs were hasted, one was a druid in tiger form, the wizard had six augmented lantern archons (mobile laser batteries that ignore DR and hit touch-ac) and the inquisitor liked fire spells... and everyone was getting the bard's song. It went somewhat quickly.

Yeah, I'd say the Beast's job here is to bring a (supposedly) superpowered monster down to a more APL appropriate challenge, not to just solve the fight for the PCs.


Keep Calm and Carrion wrote:
Griffyn Maddocks wrote:
While grappled (-2 to hit), The Beast would only do an average of 13.5 points per round with his Ogre Hook.
The Beast power attacks with his ogre hook for an average of 31 points each hit, reduced to 21 by the AP’s DR.

Duh! I totally forgot about the Power Attack. That makes a huge difference as you pointed out especially with a 2-handed weapon. Plus the other areas that I missed (grapple penalties cancelling out, AoOs, etc.)

Given the above, The Beast will be able to take down a lot more than half before the AP kills him (if it even does). I'm much more confident that it'll be a good fight.

Thanks!


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MurphysParadox wrote:
For reference, the five PCs were hasted, one was a druid in tiger form, the wizard had six augmented lantern archons (mobile laser batteries that ignore DR and hit touch-ac) and the inquisitor liked fire spells... and everyone was getting the bard's song. It went somewhat quickly.

With the low touch AC of the AP (8), the Lantern Archons would be enough on their own. With no other buffs, that's 9-10d6 per round!

Quote:
Yeah, I'd say the Beast's job here is to bring a (supposedly) superpowered monster down to a more APL appropriate challenge, not to just solve the fight for the PCs.

When you add in Power Attack, it ends up pretty even between The Beast and the AP. The players tip it well in The Beast's favor and most player groups would not be able to handle the AP on their own. It works out really well.

Thanks to everyone who helped me out. Now I think that it'll be a fun and memorable encounter for the players. I'm really glad that I reached out for help.


MurphysParadox wrote:
For reference, the five PCs were hasted, one was a druid in tiger form, the wizard had six augmented lantern archons (mobile laser batteries that ignore DR and hit touch-ac) and the inquisitor liked fire spells... and everyone was getting the bard's song. It went somewhat quickly.

Yeah, sounds like they were a tough bunch. Do you remember how they got around all the webs in the tower to engage the AP while their Haste and Summon spells were still active from the girallion flesh golem fight? My folks carefully cut their way through to avoid damaging anything, but even burning them away would take many rounds, and looking at lantern archons’ stats it seems like most of them would get stuck if they tried to move through without clearing the webs first. The nearly invisible, entangling webs in the AP’s lair sound like they would be a real problem for the archons too, and there’s not really anywhere in the tower where they can hover and make ranged attacks outside the 15’ reach of its AoO. In your place, I might have had it make its fear moan to scatter the glowing buggers while it shredded them, only then descending within 15’ of the party to deal with them.

(I hope I haven’t offended with my armchair quarterbacking. As far as I can tell, you ran an exceptional game, and I don’t mean to cast any aspersions on the way you ran your fights, when the truth is I slipped up in plenty of battles.)


It has been well over a year, so my memory of it is a touch hazy. I believe they crushed the girallion and decided to run as fast as they could to the next floor. I don't specifically recall webs in the intervening rooms, but I know they all failed perception checks to see any of the chalk markings.

In the actual lair, the druid saved against the webs and got up a reasonable distance into the tower. The inquisitor made it further in and spent his time casting fire spells, which kept the AP from getting his bonus third action. The bard and wizard were stuck at the doorway but didn't really want to get any closer. I believe the archons just hovered right there with the wizard and blasted.

The AP ran up and grappled the druid (which was in dire tiger shape) with minimal effort and just crushed him for two turns. Druid dropped down to 1 HP shy of death, so the AP dropped him and grabbed the inquisitor on the third turn while the PC attacked with his flaming sword. Had it lived enough to get a fourth turn, it would have killed the Inquisitor.

And actually, I don't think the fifth player (monk) was there that day. PCs belonging to absent players were sidelined (monk? What monk? We've always only been a party of four people; honest... until next month when we may be five people, or a different four people).

So yeah... three turns is all I got. The damage was impressive, but I guess that's a lesson against grabbing cats (as anyone who owns a house cat would know). Also, fire is very useful in this fight.

I wouldn't be surprised if I had forgotten something (like some of the webs or requiring a save for every square moved...) or fudged something somewhere, but I don't recall actively doing that. Book 2 was before I did things like maxing out HP, rewriting spell lists, adding bonuses to attack/AC/saves, and other things GMs have to do at times.

This was also a great example of PCs doing something they shouldn't be able to do because they didn't know they shouldn't be able to do it. No one told them that the AP was too powerful for them alone. They had no idea about the rooftop device or that they were supposed to use it. They all just figured they were supposed to go in and kill the boss of book 2 like they did for book 1. Crazy players, heh.


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Griffyn Maddocks wrote:
Thanks to everyone who helped me out. Now I think that it'll be a fun and memorable encounter for the players. I'm really glad that I reached out for help.

I just wanted to report that my players got to the final battle in our last session and it worked out very well. I let the player running the Bondslave run The Beast and had the AP focus on killing his brother first. So as I was calling out the damage inflicted on The Beast, the players were very uneasy.

It was over in just a few rounds. The Paladin activated the Goat of Terror and attacked with the +5 Longsword. She hit three times in two rounds, confirmed a critical twice, and then rolled near max damage. Add to that The Beast with his Power Attack...

So, thanks again for the help. It was truly a memorable fight.


Griffyn Maddocks wrote:
I just wanted to report that my players got to the final battle in our last session and it worked out very well.

Cool, glad to hear it! Please keep sharing stories from your game.

Griffyn Maddocks wrote:
The Paladin activated the Goat of Terror and attacked with the +5 Longsword.

Oh god, the goats. I swapped them for Darksight Goggles, because a) I didn’t want to track the goats weekly/monthly/biweekly recharge times and b) if everyone had darkvision, I could stop worrying about illumination in 95% of fights. Also, steampunk goggles just fit better with my idea of what the Count might have in his vault.

I think a lot of GMs assume the terror goat’s rider and allies are immune to its fear aura, but the goats will be tremendously useful (every two weeks) to a group like yours that has a paladin or other fear-immune character in it.


I just thought about something. The WW decided to go after a known powerful alchemist instead of just stealing the items themselves from a University?

I am sure they would know who the count was so that seems risky o me.. Let me know if I missed anything.

If not then I am going to alter the story to make this more reasonable.

The first time I ran this my group never really knew how powerful the creator of the golem was, but I still want it to make sense in case they find out this time around.

Silver Crusade Contributor

It might have been to cover their tracks. If everyone is too busy with their preconceptions and prejudices, nobody will think about the possible involvement of the Way until far too late. There's another plot hole that always troubled me, though...

Why doesn't the University know the properties of the Face of Dagon? It's a magic item worth tens of thousands of gold pieces. I'd have stepped up security, is all I'm saying. ^_^


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I always assumed that there were multiple *nasty* spells guarding the statue. Deadly for anyone except for a creature who is almost completely immune to magic.

Also, it is possible that the statue was inert until it was reconsecrated, brought within range of an altar and/or believers, etc.


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This is one of the weaker points in the story. The Way wanted to use the Beast as a scapegoat, so they would go unnoticed. I like Griffyn's idea though, that the effigy was protected by magic that the Beast was immune to.


I might need to change things up a bit when I get to this book. None of the player characters have Trapfinding, and some of the stuff here has given me ideas...


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Yeah, I went with the University knowing exactly what the Effigy did, and having it heavily defended - the Beast bulldozed through a lot of wards.

It's been too long; I can't remember if I described the crime scene as being a gigantic scorch mark or not.

Edit: And I did go with another suggestion from upthread - the Way also needed the preserved uterus of the Count's dead wife for the Carrion Crown elixir.

So the Way had personal business with Count Caromarc, and then used the Beast to accomplish the other objective in the area.


I noticed above that someone was working out distances. They have Morast as 6-12 miles away... But on page 19 of the AP is says "Morast, a small hamlet in the Dippelmere Swamp about 8 miles east of Lepidstadt"

So using the map and a little math (Pixels & triangle side lengths)....
Lepidstadt to Morast is 8 miles
Morast to Boneyard is 2 miles
Lepidstadt to Sanctuary is 4 miles
Lepidstadt to Hergstag 10.5
(Depending on where you start and end your line, I chose center of locations, you could have a variance of 1/2 mile.)

30 movement is 24 miles per day
--Trackless swamp is 1/2 (12mpd) or 3/4 with trails (18mpd)
40 movement is 32 miles per day
--Trackless swamp is 1/2 (16mpd) or 3/4 with trails (24mpd)
(I didn't do a 50 movement because most horse's with a rider & equipment are encumbered to a 40 movement. )

As for travel times.... (all one way)
Lepidstadt to Morast: (Swamp)
--30 Movement trackless/trails - 5:20/3:33
--40 Movement trackless/trails - 4:00/2:40
Morast to Boneyard: (Swamp)
--30 Movement trackless/trails - 1:20/0:53
--40 Movement trackless/trails - 1:00/0:40
Lepidstadt to Sanctuary: (Swamp)
--30 Movement Road/Highway - 1:47/1:20
--40 Movement Road/Highway - 1:20/1:00
Lepidstadt to Hergstag: (Swamp) - 10.5
--30 Movement trackless/trails - 7:00/4:40
--40 Movement trackless/trails - 5:15/3:30

Suggestions to get to Hergstag and back in a day:
Marching Chant allows group to hustle, but treats it like walking (so doubles movement)
Nature's Path treats trackless as trails and trails as highway.
--I'd suggest 2 Nature's Path Scroll. It costs 100gp each (4th lv caster to affect 4 people) and lasts 8 hours. Its useable by Bards, Druids, Inquisitors, Rangers, Shaman and Witchs.
So the time to hergstag would be 3:30 at a 30 move or 2:38 at a 40 movement.

Grand Lodge

Just finished the travelling/investigative part of the game and as I am running it at a lower xp track (sorta - I'm running it as E7) they have only just hit level 5.

I wish I had spotted this time to travel earlier - I just had them hire horses and make it 1 days travel there and back for each rather than apply penalties etc.


The AP(Aberrant Promethean) takes up most of the room that leasts up to L4. How are the players supposed to get past it?

edit:Assuming they don't climb the outside of the tower.

Grand Lodge

Nac Mac Feegle wrote:
Voomer wrote:
To bring up another topic, it seems strange to me that no one suspects that Caromac is the Beast's creator. Clearly many in Lepidstadt would know that the Beast is a flesh golem that must have a creator. It seems unlikely that Caromac could so thoroughly have concealed his long-term experimentations -- especially since he has been bringing in outside workers to build up the Castle. The brilliant recluse in the castle with a grudge on all of Vieland seems like a pretty obvious suspect. How have other GM's handled this? My PCs have been asking around to find out if any one has any suspicions about who the Beast's creator is; I'm feeling a little silly saying no one has any idea.

Have you read Rule of Fear? It states that Henri Moritz is believed to have created the Beast. He was involved in the peaceful uprising against Caromarc back in the day. The Beast was created as a tool of Caromarc's revenge, so I find it safe to say he used it to kill Moritz. (Not sure if that's outright stated somewhere.)

I decided he was a scientist too, and I had people tell my group the first time the Beast was seen was when it ran from Moritz' house, where his body and a weird laboratory was found, so everyone figured he created the mad monstrosity and it killed him. I had Kendra go on and on how disappointed everyone was one of the leaders of the democratic movement turned out to be a crazy monster creator.

I just ran the first half of TotB / sorry I missed this.


So my players are convinced that the Beast has at least one brother running around. The heard about the Shambling Man, found the surgical tools, the missing bodies and are certain the Whispering Way is hiding in the Swamp. They just met the wraiths, which only strengthens their assumptions. I'm not sure if I should reward this theory or stay bound to the book.

Grand Lodge

I'd be careful of them chasing Zebra's - it may frustrate the players ultimately.


Tacticslion wrote:
Travel Times

I was just about to ask about the walking times to the various places. Thank you so much for taking your time to collect these.


I've just finished the whole thread, as I'll start running this book on the 4th of december. Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions everyone; I'll probably borrow a few :-)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

How did folks treat the map for Hergstag? With the bear traps and the proximity factor for ghosts, it feels like it is best done with an actual map blown up past scale. My current idea is do something like a pokemon random encounter set up. Give them an over map on a grid they can explore, but when combat begins "zoom" into a combat map. My best idea for the over map involves roll20, but I'm trying to figure out an alternative way to run it.


I did just that, showing an overview map to the players and asking where they wanted to go and how the planned to walk there according to the map's geography. Its pretty easy to set up likely encounter maps based on the trajectories between the various points of interest. Keep in the mind that there's a slight problem with the encounters as written if your PCs explore during the day (who in their right mind explores an abandoned village at night?), the town's inhabitants can't actually engage the party due to their weakness. Keep in mind the following also: single traps or quicksand without anything to capitalize on it makes for irritating time consumers rather than adding anything to the narrative. They are best sprinkled in with other encounters, though I would alert the players to the presence of them before an encounter begins.
Here's a few modifications I ran for my party to address some of the issues I saw in the narrative flow of that part of the module. Hope it helps!


If your party explores Hergstag by day, have stormy weather strike the area. (You can foreshadow later events by having stormclouds rushing in the general direction of Schloss Caromarc, and lightning striking there repeatedly. Or you could have the storm blow in from Gallowspire, far from the south, and have them see spectral lightning elementals at play in it.) The time crunch means they can't wait for better weather, and it seems reasonable to say that thick cloud cover blocks enough sunlight to negate the wraiths' sunlight powerlessness.

Alternately, you could limit wraith encounters by day to the interiors of houses, the Beast's old lair, and Brother Swarm's hollow hill.

Having the wraith children lure players into traps and quicksand before attacking is just good horror atmosphere.

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