Most campaigns... you find magic items, not put in an order at MagicMart.The cost is about right. Mages should be spending more per AC point than the martials.Except if it costs too much (which it does), no one who understands how they work and knows better buys them.
7 years ago I would agree. It seems to be about 50/50 now at least, and magic mart is catching up.
I think an alternative would be to design them so that they are in effect equivalent to armor x with no armor check, movement or arcane caster penalties. In effect they would be bracers of force armor.
When you want to use them they generate a solid light effect kinda like an exoskeleton. Green Lantern type stuff.
So Wizard with Bracers of Force Armor (Breastplate) makes the bracers active (sometimes it's not cool to walk around fully armored) and now he's surrounded by a solid light construct that looks like breastplate armor.
It takes up room so it's incompatible with other armor but while it's up he's got a +6 to AC. Considering it doesn't have Armor Check or Arcane Caster Penalties it's pretty damned good. If he wants to enchant it further he can using the standard armor enhancement costs.
The trick is costing it effectively and limiting it so it doesn't become the armor of choice for everyone and their brother.
1)Cost should be higher than Mithral armor of type X. Mithral only reduces Armor Check and movement penalties and increases the Dex cap.
2)I'm mixed on whether you should still be required to have proficiency with said armor type. I could see wizards getting light armor proficiency in order to get access to force armor (chain shirt) but this would limit single class wizards from getting force armor (plate armor) every game.
I think it might even be a good thing to model it as function exactly like regular armor X except no Arcane Caster Penalties. It would still have the exact same dex caps, armor check penalties, proficiencies it would just be compatible with casting spells.
That would substantially reduce the cost needed to balance it vs regular/mithral armors. Fighters/Clerics/Rogues would wear regular or even glamered armor (for blending in) and wizards would bring the cool glowing armor made of light stuff ;)
I think the biggest thing that makes the bracers of armor seem clunky is the way they interact with the rules. The original bracers of armor merely added a +X AC modifier, and since it was a force modifier, I could understand it from a situational aspect; as you could gain benefit from it even if you were wearing armor.
Huh? In AD&D, Bracers of Armour originally set your AC to specific number, much like regular armor. In 3.x they gave and armor bonus to AC (like regular armour) that didn't stack with other armour bonuses, as per the stacking rules (again, like regular armor). Never, in the history of D&D, have bracers of armour stacked with armour.
With the rest of your post, I agree %100. It makes no sense that the bracers shut down completely when in every other case of having two of the same bonus, they both function, but don't stack.
I think the biggest thing that makes the bracers of armor seem clunky is the way they interact with the rules. The original bracers of armor merely added a +X AC modifier, and since it was a force modifier, I could understand it from a situational aspect; as you could gain benefit from it even if you were wearing armor.Huh? In AD&D, Bracers of Armour originally set your AC to specific number, much like regular armor. In 3.x they gave and armor bonus to AC (like regular armour) that didn't stack with other armour bonuses, as per the stacking rules (again, like regular armor). Never, in the history of D&D, have bracers of armour stacked with armour.
With the rest of your post, I agree %100. It makes no sense that the bracers shut down completely when in every other case of having two of the same bonus, they both function, but don't stack.
Sorry, my words were a bit ambiguous. When I said the original bracers of armor, I meant the 3.x versions the Pathfinder ones are based on; not the pre-3.x bracers, because those have nothing to do with the current ones other than theme.
I meant that the 3.x bracers provided an armor bonus. Doesn't stack with armor, but there might be reasons to wear them anyway as a second line of defense. The current way they're written feels really clunky, and creates weird exceptions (like being able to have both armor and bracers as long as you keep their AC bonuses the same), and just seems bizarre. It doesn't overlap or stack, it just shuts down, for no apparent reason. Like I noted previously, you can have a +1 padded shirt with +9 points worth of special abilities and tons of extra features, while wearing a +2 bracer with +6 worth of special abilities.
One other nerfing with Pathfinder that suprised me was the +8 TOTAL limit.
In 3.5 the limit was +8 armor and an additional +5 in armor enhancements like Foritfication which would bring it to +13 total and 169k cost.
I didn't think you could add armour enhancement to 3.5 bracers. Unlike PF it didn't make any mention of them. It only mentioned AC.
I tend to prep spells that help my group at first level. If you min/max and specialize you're going to have 5 mage armors for five hours at first level. Or you could have an obscuring mist to give your group invisibility in a pinch, enlarge person to help the fighter keep your skinny butt alive, grease for laughs or help your teammates out of grapple, sleep to take out a group of enemies, and color spray for if they close on you. I for one find mage armor relatively useless unless it has a long duration(higher level) or I have lots of free spell slots(higher level). So no I would say mage armor is not overpowered. A few scrolls of it on hand would be nice in case there's a lot of prep time I guess, but wizards usually have more interesting things to be doing than getting +4 AC.
I didn't think you could add armour enhancement to 3.5 bracers. Unlike PF it didn't make any mention of them. It only mentioned AC.One other nerfing with Pathfinder that suprised me was the +8 TOTAL limit.
In 3.5 the limit was +8 armor and an additional +5 in armor enhancements like Foritfication which would bring it to +13 total and 169k cost.
You could in 3.0. It was specifically mentioned in one of the books. Anything that worked in 3.0 worked in 3.5 unless specifically changed in a 3.5 book.
Most campaigns... you find magic items, not put in an order at MagicMart.
"Most" is strongly debatable.
I have no objection whatsoever to people who want to run low-magic campaigns, or no-magic-crafting campaigns, or you-only-find-magic-items campaigns. Play the way you think is fun.
However, the default Pathfinder setting is clearly none of those things.
Magic item crafting feats are right there in the rules.
Purchasing Magic Items is right on pg. 460 of the Core Rules.Note also that according to the system on pg. 460, and the statistics published in many Paizo Campaign Setting products, there are plenty of high-level arcane casters around, who make magic items for sale. Many smallish cities, in the 5,000 - 10,000 population range (Mivon, Pitax, & Gralton in the River Kingdoms, just from the supplement closest to hand, for example) have base values of 4,000gp. This indicates that any 9th level scroll should be available for sale there 75% of the time, by default.
Edit: only those 9th level scrolls w/o an expensive material component.
Certainly, the GM can change that at will - but it is a home rule.
-Kle.
Aye, I've been toying around with the idea of a strict barter system for a little while.
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Note also that according to the system on pg. 460, and the statistics published in many Paizo Campaign Setting products, there are plenty of high-level arcane casters around, who make magic items for sale. Many smallish cities, in the 5,000 - 10,000 population range (Mivon, Pitax, & Gralton in the River Kingdoms, just from the supplement closest to hand, for example) have base values of 4,000gp. This indicates that any 9th level scroll should be available for sale there 75% of the time, by default.Edit: only those 9th level scrolls w/o an expensive material component.
Certainly, the GM can change that at will - but it is a home rule.
-Kle.
Aye, I've been toying around with the idea of a strict barter system for a little while.
I agree that the availability vs. ease of production for scroll is out of balance.
Probably the simplest way to limit scroll availability to what is reasonably available in a urban setting is to use the spellcasting "for hire" limit for scroll too.
With the new settlement statistic in the Gamemastery Guide (p. 204-208) it would be easy to generate the magic items (scroll included) available from other sources.
Note also that according to the system on pg. 460, and the statistics published in many Paizo Campaign Setting products, there are plenty of high-level arcane casters around, who make magic items for sale. Many smallish cities, in the 5,000 - 10,000 population range (Mivon, Pitax, & Gralton in the River Kingdoms, just from the supplement closest to hand, for example) have base values of 4,000gp. This indicates that any 9th level scroll should be available for sale there 75% of the time, by default.Edit: only those 9th level scrolls w/o an expensive material component.
Certainly, the GM can change that at will - but it is a home rule.
-Kle.
Aye, I've been toying around with the idea of a strict barter system for a little while.I agree that the availability vs. ease of production for scroll is out of balance.
Probably the simplest way to limit scroll availability to what is reasonably available in a urban setting is to use the spellcasting "for hire" limit for scroll too.
With the new settlement statistic in the Gamemastery Guide (p. 204-208) it would be easy to generate the magic items (scroll included) available from other sources.
Well one of the nice aspects of the barter system is that it makes the appraise skill useful and I believe that it would encourage players to RP the shop a bit. Bad news is that it could make shopping seem fiaty and really messes around with player MIC.
If a wizard crafts a pair of bracers the cost is halfed, 64,000 gp becomes 32,000.
+5 armor less armor is 25,000, +6 is 36,000
Bracer +8 are 32,000 [wizard creates them] with ghost touch a +3 armor ability. So that means the bracer go to +11 effect bonus and ghost touch is free. So the Book cost should be 121,000. +8 armor plus ghost touch. Wizard crafts them for half 60,500 so that a 28,500 dicount from the formula cost for a "armor bonus."
Take that and make a ring of protection +5 for 25,000, then borrow 750 from the monk to make a ring of shielding for 4,250 for a AC BONUS of
35 (+8 armor,+5 deflection,+2 shield) Cost 121,750 the list price for +11 armor [minus the actual armor]
For the same price +10 adamantine full plate (100,000gp+1,500 plate mail+15,000gp adamantine)+2 heavy shield (4,000gp +2,steel shiel 20 gp ) AC 23 DR3/-
Mr. Fishy will even let the reader decide the +5 worth of powers to add on. That leave enoung for a +2 shield for 4 more point AC for a
AC 27 (+14 full plate,+4 shield)
AC 35 vs. all attacks including incorporeal touch for 121,750 gp
AC 27 DR3/- with armor penalties and spell failure for 120,760gp
Bracers are worth as much as they are needed. A +5 holy avenger is useless to a lich but priceless to a paladin.
I don't find the 'craft wondrous makes bracers half price, so they're not that overpriced' argument to stand up very well -- after all, it also makes a Cloak of Displacement or a Cube of Force half price.
Would I rather jack my AC up 8 points, or keep out all things? Hmmm....
(Yes, I realize we're talking charges per day vs. always on.)
So your counter post is "No your wrong!"?
The point was that the person using it, most likey made it so yes that does lower the effective price by 50%. Cloak of displacment nice item 50% miss chance. Add it to the bracers. The two combined make an AC of re-stupidness. The only thing left to fear would be AOE's.
I'm lousy at maths, how does a +8 bracers, a +5 ring, and a +2 ring of shield give you a 35 AC?
Crafting your own bracers +8 costs 32,000gp and 2 months (8 months if craft while adventuring). A suit of +2 ghost touch mithral breastplate costs 29,350gp off the shelf. Same AC, no movement penalty, just -1 ACP.
So, I guess you're right, bracers of armor are only worth it if your silly enough to craft them. Bracers +8 are about on par with a 32,000 gp AC item. Or you could craft two 32,000gp items in the same amount of time, for the same cost, instead of just one, and end up with twice the value.
Of course, a wizard can't wear regular armor, so he's either paying double for AC, or buying non-AC defense for regular price and regular priced pearls for his non-AC defensive spells. Even if you ban Mage Armor, Wizards still have far more cost effective means of defense than overpriced bracers.
So your counter post is "No your wrong!"?
Well, there was a bit more to it than that. In essence: you're wrong because that feat also makes a bunch of better things (for their cost) half price.
Bracers or Armor aren't useless, but they're a $10 steak that costs $30 for some reason, and even at half price they're still overpriced. (Meanwhile, there are $20 steaks that cost $20 out there, and you can get them at half price for $10!)
I'm lousy a maths, how does a +8 bracers, a +5 ring, and a +2 ring of shield give you a 35 AC?
Crafting your own bracers +8 costs 32,000gp and 2 months (8 months if craft while adventuring). A suit of +2 ghost touch mithral breastplate costs 29,350gp off the shelf. Same AC, no movement penalty, just -1 ACP.
So, I guess you're right, bracers of armor are only worth it if your silly enough to craft them. Bracers +8 are about on par with a 32,000 gp AC item. Or you could craft two 32,000gp items in the same amount of time, for the same cost, instead of just one, and end up with twice the value.
Of course, a wizard can't wear regular armor, so he's either paying double for AC, or buying non-AC defense for regular price and regular priced pearls for his non-AC defensive spells. Even if you ban Mage Armor, Wizards still have far more cost effective means of defense than overpriced bracers.
Just wanted to add in = Bracer of Armor
1) Require the caster to be twice the Bracer AC bonus = +8 = 16th level minimum caster level2) Bracer of Armor = Does not stack with Armor (Highest AC wins)
3) Bracer of Armor = Does not stack with Mage Armor spell (Highest AC wins)
4) Bracer of Armor = Is a type of Armor = The Monks AC Bonus is lost (depend on your DM).
5) If the Bracer are made of metal = This might conflict with Druids Armor Restrictions.
Character wealth by level chart = Needs an extra copy right in front of the Magic Section in PHB, tired of hunting it down :(
6) humm... something to do with gold cost, but forgot what number 6 was, while looking up character wealth chart... oh well will remember latter, when not thinking about it.
Character wealth by level chart = Needs an extra copy right in front of the Magic Section in PHB, tired of hunting it down :(
Table 12-4, Page 399, Core book.
Character wealth by level chart = Needs an extra copy right in front of the Magic Section in PHB, tired of hunting it down :(Table 12-4, Page 399, Core book.
Ya, but every time i work on magic items = I have to hunt that down, and always over shoot or under shoot the page, due to its location in the book. Sticking the chart right in front of the Magic Armor chart would be very helpful :)
Just wanted to add in = Bracer of Armor
1) Require the caster to be twice the Bracer AC bonus = +8 = 16th level minimum caster level
2) Bracer of Armor = Does not stack with Armor (Highest AC wins)
3) Bracer of Armor = Does not stack with Mage Armor spell (Highest AC wins)
4) Bracer of Armor = Is a type of Armor = The Monks AC Bonus is lost (depend on your DM).
5) If the Bracer are made of metal = This might conflict with Druids Armor Restrictions.Character wealth by level chart = Needs an extra copy right in front of the Magic Section in PHB, tired of hunting it down :(
6) humm... something to do with gold cost, but forgot what number 6 was, while looking up character wealth chart... oh well will remember latter, when not thinking about it.
bracers of armor have no effect on monks at all. I also do not believe even metal ones would affect a Druid any more than jewelry would.
4) Bracer of Armor = Is a type of Armor = The Monks AC Bonus is lost (depend on your DM).
5) If the Bracer are made of metal = This might conflict with Druids Armor Restrictions.
What type of armor are bracers of armor? Are they light, medium, or heavy? What's their ASF? ACP? Max Dex?
Ya, but every time i work on magic items = I have to hunt that down, and always over shoot or under shoot the page, due to its location in the book. Sticking the chart right in front of the Magic Armor chart would be very helpful :)Character wealth by level chart = Needs an extra copy right in front of the Magic Section in PHB, tired of hunting it down :(Table 12-4, Page 399, Core book.
Use the SRD and just have it open in a separate window / tab.
While posting in another thread, I have amended my opinion of bracers of armor. While I still think they are terribly overpriced for Wizards, for Duelists and Monks they are pretty spot on.
Also, A fighter with +5 full plate and +1 bracers of heavy fortification is only paying 62,650gp if you would allow non-AC components of bracers to stack. A +5 heavy fortification full plate costs 101,650gp.
So there's really no fix for bracers to make them worthwhile to wizards unless you were make special Wizard Only bracers.
I'm lousy at maths, how does a +8 bracers, a +5 ring, and a +2 ring of shield give you a 35 AC?
The 3 and 2 are next to each other. And at a Quarter to 12 Mr. Fishy doesn't proofread his post. The point was the money could buy the same "AC" as a fighter in plate with a bonus that blocks everything. Force, deflection and force shield, +15 AC for the same price as a +10 adamantine platemail as a +14 with ghost touch and a +2 power.
Example of a "far more cost effective means of defense than overpriced bracers." please.
Mr. Fishy is playing a wizard and needs the help.
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I'm lousy at maths, how does a +8 bracers, a +5 ring, and a +2 ring of shield give you a 35 AC?
The 3 and 2 are next to each other. And at a Quarter to 12 Mr. Fishy doesn't proofread his post. The point was the money could buy the same "AC" as a fighter in plate with a bonus that blocks everything. Force, deflection and force shield, +15 AC for the same price as a +10 adamantine platemail as a +14 with ghost touch and a +2 power.
Example of a "far more cost effective means of defense than overpriced bracers." please.
Mr. Fishy is playing a wizard and needs the help.
Lets face it the big nasty thing trying to eat your face is likely to have an attack bonus that makes a mockery of your AC so frankly why bother? Thus I wouldn't bother focusing on increasing my AC as a wizard/sorcerer as you have far better ways of defending yourself.
some examples that come to mind are:Mirror Image
Fly
Displacement
Emergency Force Sphere
(check this one with your GM as they may beat you to a bloody pulp if you spring it on them)
Elemental body spells
(earth for preference as this gives you earth-glide)
This being said Mage Armour is handy for low levels and for throwing at the more flexible members of your party. I do also appreciate that these would be a fairly hefty load-out for a caster if you were spamming them every fight, but in general you won't using one or two of these should be enough to see you through.
Anyway that's my tuppence worth.
The rules don't mandate that a Magic Walmart be present at any town with a population that equals Hommlet or better. They provide mechanics for availablility, but I do notice that players and GM's seem to interpret a lot more avialability than what the rules actually imply.
Neither do the rules mandate that you follow the wealth by level guidelines, or CR suggestions.
By your argument I could say that pitting a Balor against a level 1 party is the default because CRs are just suggestions.
I'm basing my assertion that Pathfinder built on the traditions of D20 and D+D, and one of those is that PC's don't generally shop for their magic, but get the bulk of it through dungeon running and reward.
So your position is that things work in a way that you think they worked in an earlier edition of the game, despite JB going out of his way to write an awful lot of words in the core book to change the rules relating to those things?
I'm not sure in what world that would make any sense. I suppose you think he means that you're really supposed to use the 1E weapon vs. armor type hit charts and 2E kits systems, too? Except that'd be marginally more defensible than your position, because it doesn't specifically say in the rules that kits aren't how things work anymore.
I get it; you don't like the idea of players having a choice of what magic items they have. I'm not sure why you played 3E or 3.5E either, given that, honestly. But the way you would like the game to be has no bearing on what the rules as written actually are.
However, individual GMs are all different, and thus cannot be considered the default position for the game.
That's just not true. If the rules varied from table to table because of various DM likes or dislikes there could be no such thing as organized play.
DMs are free to play the game however they wish at their own table, and, in fact, are encouraged to, but there IS a default.My point is that the ball can be swung too far in the are the are of Player entitlement. A key thing to remember is that Paizo's OWN PFS campaign and modules tend to follow a model a lot closer to what I've outlined than the MagicMart model.
That hasn't been my experience. Granted I've only played through two paths; RotRL and LoF. I found that there was almost always access to decent sized towns and cities where one could purchase magic items. Even if you weren't in one, you had enough down time that you could pay someone to go get it. At higher levels, you just teleported to Magnimar or Katapesh and went shopping.
That's just not true. If the rules varied from table to table because of various DM likes or dislikes there could be no such thing as organized play.
Organised play is exceptional and does not represent the norm.
(And even in "organised" play individual DMs can make a big difference.)
So, the forum where everyone gets together and agrees on the same rules for everybody is the exception. The norm is where there are no mutual rules and everyone just plays how they want? In that case, nothing in this thread has any value as the rules apply differently to everyone.
And while I don't know about PFS in particular, in know in 4e LFR it was indeed magicmart like.
Once we scored enough cash, we could buy anything we wanted.
In the Living Arcanis campaign which ran on 3.5 rules, I had a +1 Bracer of Light Fortification. I wore it with my standard armor for the fortification. In Pathfinder however, my armor would totally negate any benefit from the bracers.You could in 3.0. It was specifically mentioned in one of the books. Anything that worked in 3.0 worked in 3.5 unless specifically changed in a 3.5 book.I didn't think you could add armour enhancement to 3.5 bracers. Unlike PF it didn't make any mention of them. It only mentioned AC.One other nerfing with Pathfinder that suprised me was the +8 TOTAL limit.
In 3.5 the limit was +8 armor and an additional +5 in armor enhancements like Foritfication which would bring it to +13 total and 169k cost.
This is not true. You'd receive the benefits fo the Light Fortification, you just wouldn't get any benefits from the AC, except against Incorp touch attacks.
==Aelryinth
Another point of fact on the cost benefit side:
Mage Armor is going to be the basic defense of a mage probably until level 15 or so.
Why? Because it's so damn pricey to increase the Armor bonus by +1!
Consider...Mage Armor, FREE, +4 Armor bonus.
Bracers of Armor +5, +1 More Armor...Cost is 25,000 gold for ONE POINT OF AC!
There is NO means of increasing your AC that costs more then going from Mage Armor to bracers. you are FAR FAR better off using that 25,000 gp to max out Dex, Nat Armor, Deflection, or buying an Ioun stone and upgrading it, or pretty much ANYTHING.
Only when you have a stupid amount of money and don't know what to do with it should you upgrade to Bracers. If you get Greater Mage Armor, you probably won't do anything to this until you're 17+.
==Aelryinth
Another point of fact on the cost benefit side:
Mage Armor is going to be the basic defense of a mage probably until level 15 or so.
Why? Because it's so damn pricey to increase the Armor bonus by +1!
Consider...Mage Armor, FREE, +4 Armor bonus.
Bracers of Armor +5, +1 More Armor...Cost is 25,000 gold for ONE POINT OF AC!
There is NO means of increasing your AC that costs more then going from Mage Armor to bracers. you are FAR FAR better off using that 25,000 gp to max out Dex, Nat Armor, Deflection, or buying an Ioun stone and upgrading it, or pretty much ANYTHING.
Only when you have a stupid amount of money and don't know what to do with it should you upgrade to Bracers. If you get Greater Mage Armor, you probably won't do anything to this until you're 17+.
==Aelryinth
All to be undone that one day you don't get a chance to memorize your spells.
Another point of fact on the cost benefit side:
Mage Armor is going to be the basic defense of a mage probably until level 15 or so.
Why? Because it's so damn pricey to increase the Armor bonus by +1!
Consider...Mage Armor, FREE, +4 Armor bonus.
Bracers of Armor +5, +1 More Armor...Cost is 25,000 gold for ONE POINT OF AC!
There is NO means of increasing your AC that costs more then going from Mage Armor to bracers. you are FAR FAR better off using that 25,000 gp to max out Dex, Nat Armor, Deflection, or buying an Ioun stone and upgrading it, or pretty much ANYTHING.
Only when you have a stupid amount of money and don't know what to do with it should you upgrade to Bracers. If you get Greater Mage Armor, you probably won't do anything to this until you're 17+.
==Aelryinth
this is why I made my original post. I was going to mention to the dm I was under geared. when I realized the bracers I had picked up put me at exact wbl. but I did nit go into a single combat without Mage armor. if we had been anywhere near a city I would have sold them but no vendors I'n the lost city I'n a jungle under evil outsider attack.