I'm not as good at analyzing the numbers as I'd like to be, but it occurs to me that an Elven Paladin using his martial Elven curve blade could be pretty effective.
Pros:
ECB beats greatsword and falchion at higher levels.
The higher crit range on the ECB makes smiting that much better.
+2 INT makes up for the probable hit taken to bring in points.
+2 DEX will add to AC in most cases, improve REF saves, and (if you got it really high for whatever reason) can be applied to the ECB with Weapon Finesse. Or, if you wanted to pursue a switch hitter Paladin, this will add to your ranged smites. Any plate armor made of mithril would allow for the full +3 to AC from a 16 DEX for example.
Cons:
Mainly the hit to CON, but this is easy to make up for. It is essentially a -1 HP each level and a -1 to FORT saves. The -1 to the saves is more than made up for by Divine Grace. The -1 to HP is made up for with your favored class selection (remembering that the +2 to INT is basically giving an extra skill point as well). Also, if going with the ECB, you'll be using fewer feats and can afford Toughness if it's really important to you.
Toss in some cool stuff from the APG and you're in business.
Who says it is unviable? Its not optimal, but no elven melee character is. No bonus to str, and a con penalty. That does not make it unplayable.
ECB is a boost from Falchion but for the most part the racial ability modifiers for the Elf don't align with standard build strategies.
No +Str means THF builds tend to lag.
No +Cha means smite DPR is behind
-2 Con means lower hitpoints
No Bonus Feat means that the already feat starved Paladin is behind.
I think Elven Archer Paladin is viable but it's a strange build that is pretty contrary to the standard vision of paladin (heavy armor melee fighter).
Considering most Paladin Build dump Int like crazy the +2 Int really only brings the elf to parity with the Human in terms of Skillpoints.
You could just as easily do the same thing with a human, only replace "martial curve blade" with "exotic weapon prof (curve blade)" for your bonus feat. Plus no con penalty, humans get bonus skill points already, and you can throw that +2 into Str instead. What do you miss out on? CL checks for SR (big whoop), immune to sleep (Pally's have great saves anyway) and a perception bonus. Low-light is nice, but far from a requirement.
All in all, they're not unplayable, just not the "best".
I guess that what I'm hoping to hear is that an Elven paladin can do his job -- and do it well -- despite not being clearly optimal.
EDIT: Also, the standard Elven racial abilities can be swapped out for cooler stuff in the APG.
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Don't listen to those crazies. Back in the days of 3.5, I played an elven paladin for 6 years, and he did quite fine. Was it always optimal? No. Was it fun? Heck yeah, it was! You don't need to min-max a character to make a good character. Min-maxing, is what players and DM's who roll-play do. Building a character with a creative story and a solid core is what roleplayers do.
Don't listen to those crazies. Back in the days of 3.5, I played an elven paladin for 6 years, and he did quite fine. Was it always optimal? No. Was it fun? Heck yeah, it was! You don't need to min-max a character to make a good character. Min-maxing, is what players and DM's who roll-play do. Building a character with a creative story and a solid core is what roleplayers do.
Thanks for the encouragement. I'm thinking that an Elven Paladin Warrior of the Holy Light with the Lightbringer racial ability (replacing Elven Magic) would be very fun and Tolkienesque, which, really, is much more important to me than an infinitesimal edge.
I guess that what I'm hoping to hear is that an Elven paladin can do his job -- and do it well -- despite not being clearly optimal.
In that case yes, a character can not only do his job, but can perform excellently, without being optimal.
I don't think I've ever created what could be considered an optimal character; they tend to be boring dime-a-dozen types. Effective in the game, sure, but boring.
Pros:
ECB beats greatsword and falchion at higher levels.
-It can be had by anyone for a feat.
The higher crit range on the ECB makes smiting that much better.
+2 INT makes up for the probable hit taken to bring in points.
+2 DEX will add to AC in most cases, improve REF saves, and (if you got it really high for whatever reason) can be applied to the ECB with Weapon Finesse. Or, if you wanted to pursue a switch hitter Paladin, this will add to your ranged smites. Any plate armor made of mithril would allow for the full +3 to AC from a 16 DEX for example.
-The problem is that higher stats are more expensive if you use point buy, and rarer if you're rolling dice. Increasing your low stats is inefficient. Paladins can wear plate and don't have armor training, so they have no need for dex. They also don't need more than 2 skills, and have no knowledge skills, so a human paladin and an elf paladin have the same number of skill points even if the human is dumber. If your stats wind up being
STR 17
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 14
This is a 21 point buy as an elf. As a human its a 16 point buy (if the +2 goes into str)AND the human has more skill points.
Dex is simply inefficient for a melee fighter, because it takes a feat to add it to hit AND doesn't add to damage.
-Its all about opportunity cost. the +1 hp per level isn't made up because in all likely hood you'll do both.
Yeah, there`s no reason you can`t rock out.
I think people get too hung over the optimal stat-boosts,
they just don`t really control your character`s effictiveness or destiny that much.
The ECB is a nice thing to have.
Even when I have a character with a boost to a given stat, I rarely put the MAX into that stat, since it`s much more cost-effective to put a 16 into a stat before a boost, and have nicer 2ndary stats... You might be more interested in putting the most points into STR as you can manage, but you can still have a decent STR whatever the case.
In this case, missing out on the STR boost means you will lag to-hit by +1 and dmg by +1 or +2, depending... That`s just not THAT important in the scope of things. Certainly a decent DEX is valuable, so your bonus there helps: If you use the DEX bonus to just put less into DEX, in favor of STR, you achieve a similar outcome to a race with STR bonus who doesn`t go for fully-maxed STR build (i.e. also gets a decent DEX). Although escalating point cost slightly favors the race with a bonus to the highest stat, since you ARE getting a bonus to DEX the net difference is going to tend to somewhat less than the +1/+2 I previously mentioned.
You COULD go for an all-out Weapon Finesse build for uber-AC but lesser DMG output, possibly as a melee/ranged switch-hitter build, but I think still going for high STR and so-so DEX is very workable and will let you fill that standard melee role better. The INT bonus means you will have more skills even when putting in zero or negative points into INT, which actually is a very nice thing to have (I suggest that you do in fact put in zero or negative points into INT, so that you CAN have a decent STR and CHA score)
Other racial abilities perhaps aren`t CENTRAL to Paladin hood, but SR boosts actually are nice (esp. if using new APG Paladin spells: Ghostbane Dirge, Fire of Entanglement, Fire of Judgement, Holy Whisper, Marks of Forbiddance, Blaze of Glory, Stay the Hand, etc), and I can`t remember them off the top of my head but I`m sure the APG alternative racial abilities can be great too. Enjoy your game!
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Don't listen to those crazies. Back in the days of 3.5, I played an elven paladin for 6 years, and he did quite fine. Was it always optimal? No. Was it fun? Heck yeah, it was! You don't need to min-max a character to make a good character. Min-maxing, is what players and DM's who roll-play do. Building a character with a creative story and a solid core is what roleplayers do.
+1
Thanks for the encouragement. I'm thinking that an Elven Paladin Warrior of the Holy Light with the Lightbringer racial ability (replacing Elven Magic) would be very fun and Tolkienesque, which, really, is much more important to me than an infinitesimal edge.
I have a character with a very similar build that I keep wanting to play, so I say go for it. Just think of Glorfindel taking on balrogs, and you'll do fine!
-The Gneech
Who says it is unviable? Its not optimal, but no elven melee character is. No bonus to str, and a con penalty. That does not make it unplayable.
+1
Non-optimal but hardly unplayable.
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Don't forget Smite damage applies to ranged attacks in Pathfinder. A range focused Elf Paladin would do very well (more full-attacks with ranged weapons means more damage).
A melee Elf Paladin would work fine, just because it doesn't have the raw HP of a human or half-orc pally doesn't mean it can't survive. Boost your AC, and use your finesse to make your hits count and you've got a perfectly viable character.
Something that doesn't seem to be factored in much here is that if my paladin goes WoHL, he'll be under a +1 attack, +1 AC buff in pretty much every combat, which helps counteract the lack of strength bonus and the constitution penalty (slightly).
I have a character with a very similar build that I keep wanting to play, so I say go for it. Just think of Glorfindel taking on balrogs, and you'll do fine!
Definitely a Silmarillion fan here, though I'm about to go even deeper down the rabbit hole with my recent purchase of Morgoth's Ring. Perhaps we should compare notes on the build. Are you also going ECB?
I'm angling for more of a starlight flavor than sunlight, but mechanically the same. I have a list of something like three dozen star-based Quenya names that I need to narrow down.
Paladins are probably the most viable class to take for a melee focus with a racial CON hit,
since their Swift Lay on Hands really helps assuage HP loss.
Paladins are probably the most viable class to take for a melee focus with a racial CON hit,
since their Swift Lay on Hands really helps assuage HP loss.
My thought as well, especially since the WoHL options gives extra Lay on Hands per day, which helps to offset their usage due to the nimbus ability.
Elven Paladin can definitely work well. I would think there are a few different ways to do this. All of them would be fairly heavy on Dex and Cha.
First would be ranged. Grab a bow and take archery feats. Extra attack via Rapid Shot and Manyshot will give excellent damage with Smites. By my reading of Manyshot smite damage should apply to the extra arrow. So with both Rapidshot and Manyshot that 2 extra smite damages a round. Not bad, and makes up for lower Str. (I think a cool idea here would be to try to get a flying mount, such as a griffon or a pegasus, and use mounted archery.)
Second would be a 'switch hitter.' Not nearly as good as a Ranger switch hitter since you don't get bonus feats. But taking a mix of ranged and melee feats means you can get more attacks off early via ranged, then drop into melee when close. Again smites will work on all those attacks, so against the evil guys the more attacks makes up for lower Str.
Third would be TWFer. The extra dex makes this more viable. Sword and Shield work very well for this. Smite damage applies to the offhand attack as well, so the more attacks the more damage and it makes up for lower Str. Shield makes for extra AC too so you can be a solid tank thanks to Lay on Hands.
A fourth option would be going reach weapon and/or lunge plus Combat Reflexes. It generally won't help with smite damage, but at least it can get more attacks out there with extra AoOs from the decent dex. And the int bonus can make getting Expertise and Imp Trip easier for a decent battlefield controler/tank.
Two handing a curved blade is cool but won't have the damage potential of the above builds.
I think Elven Archer Paladin is viable but it's a strange build that is pretty contrary to the standard vision of paladin (heavy armor melee fighter).
Tangent: if you were going to make an archer paladin, what would it look like?
As you say the paladin is feat-starved and there's more archery feats alone than he'd ever really be able to afford. I'm sure it can be made effective but I've never tried to sit down and reason out which feats etc. you can let slide for that kind of character and which you really do need.
I've seen a very effective Spring Attacking paladin with an Elven Curve Blade. It might not be considered "optimal", but a mobile Paladin can do some neat things...
That sounds interesting, but I'd have no idea how to make that build work. High mobility rather than a tin suit is definitely the feel I'd want, though.
I've seen a very effective Spring Attacking paladin with an Elven Curve Blade. It might not be considered "optimal", but a mobile Paladin can do some neat things...That sounds interesting, but I'd have no idea how to make that build work. High mobility rather than a tin suit is definitely the feel I'd want, though.
Do you 'need' to be only paladin? Using the duelist and dervish dance feat and you could get really close to that using an elf and get some nice synergies going.
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I've seen a very effective Spring Attacking paladin with an Elven Curve Blade. It might not be considered "optimal", but a mobile Paladin can do some neat things...That sounds interesting, but I'd have no idea how to make that build work. High mobility rather than a tin suit is definitely the feel I'd want, though.
The build I saw used human to get the extra feat, and Heirloom Weapon to pick up the Elven Curve Blade.
I believe they started out as (with a 20 point buy)
STR 14 (5)
DEX 18 (10, +2 racial bonus)
CON 12 (2)
INT 10 (0)
WIS 8 (-2)
CHA 14 (5)
Since you'll be a skirmisher and can swift-action lay-on-hands yourself, the lower CON is manageable. Take the favored class bonus in hit point every time though.
Go with a Mithril Breastplate for decent AC and high mobility. Take Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack as your feats. You can use a trait (such as Captain's Blade in PFS) to pick up Acrobatics as a class skill...
I think Elven Archer Paladin is viable but it's a strange build that is pretty contrary to the standard vision of paladin (heavy armor melee fighter).
Tangent: if you were going to make an archer paladin, what would it look like?
As you say the paladin is feat-starved and there's more archery feats alone than he'd ever really be able to afford. I'm sure it can be made effective but I've never tried to sit down and reason out which feats etc. you can let slide for that kind of character and which you really do need.
Well alot of the cool Archer stuff is Fighter only (Penetrating Strike, Weapon Specialization, GWF, GWS) and Paladins can't get Point Blank Mastery.
I think the bare minimum for an archery focused character is
Weapon Focus: Longbow
Point Blank Shot
Deadly Aim
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Precise Shot (shooting into melee is pretty much a given)
Imp Precise Shot (negating cover and miss chances is nice)
Leaving 3 feats (4 if human) to fill out the remainder
Dodge
Mobility
Shot on the Run
is one decent possibility
or you know be something other than a one trick pony ;)
I suspect the optimal archer-din takes some levels of fighter to get some more combat feats and get weapon training/specialization but I haven't really tried to decipher what the optimal progression would be.
Definitely a Silmarillion fan here, though I'm about to go even deeper down the rabbit hole with my recent purchase of Morgoth's Ring. Perhaps we should compare notes on the build. Are you also going ECB?
It's been a while since I looked; the way I remember it was he was made with the Warrior of the Holy Light archetype and the Lightbringer racial variant, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) and generally goes sword-and-board with it. He's definitely designed as a party buffer/tank rather than a pure damage machine on his own.
I'll have to pull the character out of Hero Labs tonight and post a stat block. If I recall, he had the advantage of some pretty high stat rolls (4d6 drop lowest and kind dice) rather than point buy, which helped of course. I'll look at retooling him with a standard point buy while I'm at it.
-The Gneech
Funnily enough, drow make great paladins.
Funnily enough, drow make great paladins.
Abyssal Heritage Tieflings even more so. :)
I've never consider elf paladins unviable. I wasn't aware anyone did. We haven't yet converted my wife's elf paladin from 3.5 to PF, but she kicked major butt back in the day.
Like... MAJOR butt. Nothing seemed to be lacking at all.
*takes notes for his power attack combat style elf ranger.
Who says it is unviable? Its not optimal, but no elven melee character is. No bonus to str, and a con penalty. That does not make it unplayable.That's the thing. A lot of people view things as a binary of optimal/unplayable instead of as a spectrum.
+1. A lot of people with this view are very vocal about it as well, which has the unfortunate side effect of leading the casual observer to conclude that the majority of players take this view.
depends on your game master (DM)
If he lets the elf paladin start out with a Costume Fit (nobody else can use), Masterwork Mitheral Full-Plate Armor (which the player it not allowed to sale).
Well then the Elf Paladin is very VIABLE !
Okay, here's a standard point-buy version of my "not-Glorfindel" elf paladin...
RUFINDEL CR 1/2
Male Elf Paladin (Warrior of the Holy Light) 1
LG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +2; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +4
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 10, flat-footed 18. . (+5 armor, +3 shield)
hp 12 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +3
Immune blindness, dazzled
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Longsword +3 (1d8+2/19-20/x2)
Ranged Shortbow +1 (1d6/20/x3)
Special Attacks Smite Evil (1/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Detect Evil (At will), Light (At will)
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 15
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 13
Feats Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Shield Focus
Traits Caretaker, Warrior of Old
Skills Diplomacy +6, Heal +2, Perception +4
Languages Common, Elven
SQ Aura of Good (Ex), Lightbringer
Combat Gear Longsword, Shortbow, Arrows (20), Scale Mail, Shield, Heavy Steel;
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Aura of Good (Ex) The paladin has an Aura of Good with power equal to her class level.
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use Detect Evil at will (as the spell).
Immune to Blindness You are immune to blindness.
Immune to Dazzled You are immune to the dazzled condition.
Light (Lightbringer) (At will) (Sp) With Intelligence 10+, cast Light at will.
Lightbringer +1 effective level for [Light] spells and light-based abilities (including spell-like and supernatural abilities).
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Smite Evil (1/day) (Su) +2 to hit, +1 to damage, +2 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Created With Hero Lab® - try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com!
There are a few different ways you could go with him ... I chose Shield Focus for his feat figuring that would likely add to his overall durability better than, say, Toughness or Lightning Reflexes. If you wanted him to hit harder rather than be more tanky, you could give him proficiency with bastard swords instead (figuring on Weapon Focus to be added later).
His 4th level stat boost should go to Cha, obviously. :) As time goes on, he's going to want Boots of Striding and Springing (as paladins don't get the movement features of a fighter) and any Belts of Physical Oomph he can get. As far as weapons, if he takes his weapon as his divine bond, he can concentrate on just piling on the +1/+2/+3 instead of adding varying effects. For armor, Champion Mithral Full Plate and a Ghost Touch shield would probably serve him nicely, plus the biggest Amulet of Natural Armor he can get ahold of.
And for those forays into the infernal realms, don't forget a ring of fire resistance!
-The Gneech
Thanks, this is definitely some solid content. I'm excited about this character. Now if only I could find a DM I'm excited about!
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First would be ranged. Grab a bow and take archery feats. Extra attack via Rapid Shot and Manyshot will give excellent damage with Smites. By my reading of Manyshot smite damage should apply to the extra arrow. So with both Rapidshot and Manyshot that 2 extra smite damages a round. Not bad, and makes up for lower Str.
But what's the official ruling on smite with manyshot/rapidshot? Does the smite only apply to the first arrow, or does the DR apply to both? As smite reads, the extra smite damage should only go for the first arrow? Or am I reading this wrong?
(I'm playing with our group now and am rolling up a halfling ranged paladin and everyone's saying that NOTHING would apply to the second arrow with manyshot, so a quick reply would be awesome.)
First would be ranged. Grab a bow and take archery feats. Extra attack via Rapid Shot and Manyshot will give excellent damage with Smites. By my reading of Manyshot smite damage should apply to the extra arrow. So with both Rapidshot and Manyshot that 2 extra smite damages a round. Not bad, and makes up for lower Str.But what's the official ruling on smite with manyshot/rapidshot? Does the smite only apply to the first arrow, or does the DR apply to both? As smite reads, the extra smite damage should only go for the first arrow? Or am I reading this wrong?
(I'm playing with our group now and am rolling up a halfling ranged paladin and everyone's saying that NOTHING would apply to the second arrow with manyshot, so a quick reply would be awesome.)
They are wrong.
Here is the PRD link to manyshot.You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.
In fact the only thing that doesn't apply to the second arrow is precision damage (99% of the times that means sneak attack) and damage from critical hit, everything else (including smite evil) applies to both arrows.