This may be a little Metagamey, but basically this stems from a thought I had when I read the final BBEG in the Kingmaker AP. It consists of the Contingency and Fireball.
Think about it.
A Fighter runs up and cleaves the evil Wizard's skull in two, then BOOM, Maximized Fireball at point blank. Ouch.
Anyway just wondering if anyone else had any thoughts of how to make players a little leary about the old run up a hit him hard tactic.
Have the Wizards always be flying? Clever use of illusions and wall of force?
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there are any number of spells that as a player i would use to prevent such a tactic. Entangle the area around you, stone spikes, etc. That gives a large area and will do alot of damage to them by the time they get to you. Not to mention it works as difficult terrain thereby slowing them down to half speed
Agreed.
Battlefield control/alteration spells can wreak havoc both on the melee characters's abilities and they morale - I've seen quite often that even a minor malus can deter some players.
Making it obvious that the caster has a penchant for metamagic touch attacks has always worked for me.
EnemyCaster - Begins casting
MeleePCTank - moves as close to caster as possible, but ducks behind pillar to block line-of-sight.
OtherPCs - follow suit, while staying behind MeleePCTank
EnemyCaster - moves next to MeleePCTank and touches; maxed chill touch hits
MeleePCTank - fails save and flees, panicked
OtherPCs - use full move action to move away and revise strategy
EnemyCaster - follows OtherPCs
Throw in slow and mass hold person for greater effect.
While you're doing that, don't forget the wind wall to keep those pesky missile fighters from sitting back and filling you with arrows. And cast dominate person on the first lucky contestant to get close to you and send him back to play with his former spellcaster buddy, the one with a poor AC and low hit points.
While you're doing that, don't forget the wind wall to keep those pesky missile fighters from sitting back and filling you with arrows. And cast dominate person on the first lucky contestant to get close to you and send him back to play with his former spellcaster buddy, the one with a poor AC and low hit points.
You see? This is why I made this thread. I would have completely forgot about dominate person.
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I like Reverse Gravity. Especially in high-celinged rooms for extra falling damage.
It's also fun to allow the party's spellcaster to detect the spell being in effect: This allows the caster's extensive knowledge to save the party, by warning the brutal barbarian-type that he's about to have a major headache.
After one Reverse Gravity encounter, they'll learn to stand back and think for a bit whenever they see dust gently floating upwards, and that's all you want.
You see? This is why I made this thread. I would have completely forgot about dominate person.How could anyone forget about that spell?
Unless... you've been dominated.
I usually prefer to crush, blast, and all around obliterate my enemies. Just my style, not much for manipulation. Which is funny cause Emporer Palpatine is one of my personal favorite villains of all time.
You could cast "Win the fight"
Spellcasters should absolutely crush unprepared parties if played intelligently, to be honest. Sure, there is an answer to any individual spell (potion of protection from evil will keep dominate from working...if the spellcaster is evil, and freedom of movement will negate "win the fight"), but honestly, the odds of PCs having all of their ducks in a row is fairly limited.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, Wall of Force can be a devastating tactic when placed correctly....getting the fighter one on one while you're flying and invisible and he is cut off from the rest of his team = dead fighter.
1) If your melee guy wants to run up to the spellcaster, let him. Then unload at point-blank range with the nastiest spells you've got. Make sure you can handle a hit or two, but then retaliate. Hit him with fun things like harm (Will save) followed by a quickened spell to put him down (inflict wounds, searing light, whatever). The details will vary based on the spellcaster.
2) Invisible allies never hurt. Run up to the druid, get eaten by his invisible companion.
3) Illusions. Either have an illusory opponent, or cover a nasty melee critter with an illusion. Can be hysterical when applied to something that is a melee brute, or even just plain scary like a marilith.
Fighters will soon learn not to run up to spellcasters willy-nilly if they keep having their body parts blasted off, hacked off, or their life-force sucked out. Mind you, they might want to get up there to knock the caster out of the fight, but if the caster is going to insist on being in reach of the melee guy, the caster has to be ready to lay the smack down on the unedumacated bumpkin who dares to wave a pointy piece of metal at him.
This may be a little Metagamey, but basically this stems from a thought I had when I read the final BBEG in the Kingmaker AP. It consists of the Contingency and Fireball.
Think about it.
A Fighter runs up and cleaves the evil Wizard's skull in two, then BOOM, Maximized Fireball at point blank. Ouch.
Anyway just wondering if anyone else had any thoughts of how to make players a little leary about the old run up a hit him hard tactic.
Fire Shield(or similiar spells) is meant to do that...mixed with a stoneskin to limit the danage being done to the caster makes a good detertent.
Also summon monsters to keep the melee guys of the caster is a good stagety.
I don't know the Kingmaker AP...and going to pley though it...so I don't know what exactly is the type BBEG it is(and don't want to know) so the above tactic might not work in the above fight.
This may be a little Metagamey, but basically this stems from a thought I had when I read the final BBEG in the Kingmaker AP. It consists of the Contingency and Fireball.
Think about it.
A Fighter runs up and cleaves the evil Wizard's skull in two, then BOOM, Maximized Fireball at point blank. Ouch.
Anyway just wondering if anyone else had any thoughts of how to make players a little leary about the old run up a hit him hard tactic.
Most fighters can take the HP damage, and contingency spell are restricted. You can't use it with a fireball.
PS:Why are you trying to make the fighter types afraid?
How about the Fear spell?
PC wizards rarely adventure on their own. There is no reason to expect to run into an NPC wizard without a supporting cast to protect him/her. The best way to deal with casters as NPCs is to treat them as having brains and resources so that when the PC barbarian attempts to charge the wizard, he finds the wizard's tank blocking his path.
A few ranged minions won't hurt either.
The chance that a group of adventurers will sneak unobserved into a decently competent wizard's sanctum sanctorum and attack him alone is, or should be, virtually nil.
In our gaming groups, full casters tend to get targeted, on both sides.
With the capacity to affect multiple targets at range, they are the biggest threat on the battlefield.
Although they are not exactly easy to pick out right away.
One nice suprise for the party fighter who's only tactic is to rush the spellcaster is, make the spell caster a Magus.
Give him a glammered chain shirt, make him a few levels higher than you would the straight up caster, give him a specialized one handed magic weapon that while sheathed looks like a dagger, but when drawn becomes a longsword (the 1st ed 'longtooth' weapon comes to mind, i n similar fashion)
Have him start the battle acting like a "normal wizard" staying at range, maybe casting spells with the aid of his staff or wand, and in all ways appear wizard, like.
When the fighter rushes up on him, he has to deal with a magus, who draws his longsword that looked like a dagger and dual wields a staff and sword on him with spellstrike, pool strike, hasted assault and all manner of nasty touch attacks that hit the fighter who thought he'd be protected by his AC.
It should be a 'blast' of an encounter that drops the fighter and has the rest of the party trying to help him and recover him form the feet of the mighty magus.
Have the magus retreat, and make good his escape, after laying the party low with the surprise.
should be good food for thought.
Unfortunately, blocking someone's path is impossible according to raw because all movement is turn based.PC wizards rarely adventure on their own. There is no reason to expect to run into an NPC wizard without a supporting cast to protect him/her. The best way to deal with casters as NPCs is to treat them as having brains and resources so that when the PC barbarian attempts to charge the wizard, he finds the wizard's tank blocking his path.
A few ranged minions won't hurt either.
The chance that a group of adventurers will sneak unobserved into a decently competent wizard's sanctum sanctorum and attack him alone is, or should be, virtually nil.
Whip + combat reflexes + stand still = 15 ft radius in which things may not move.
PF Stand Still does not work reliably. The one that does work for some reason they reserved for one of the Cavalier Orders.
==Aelryinth
Eh, then a reach trip weapon should do some wonders, throw in a lunge and it's mostly the same.
Unfortunately, blocking someone's path is impossible according to raw because all movement is turn based.PC wizards rarely adventure on their own. There is no reason to expect to run into an NPC wizard without a supporting cast to protect him/her. The best way to deal with casters as NPCs is to treat them as having brains and resources so that when the PC barbarian attempts to charge the wizard, he finds the wizard's tank blocking his path.
A few ranged minions won't hurt either.
The chance that a group of adventurers will sneak unobserved into a decently competent wizard's sanctum sanctorum and attack him alone is, or should be, virtually nil.
Not true given terrain....number of minions...and placement. Heck summon spells are perfect for it.
Eh, then a reach trip weapon should do some wonders, throw in a lunge and it's mostly the same.
I'm sure you know that Trip isn't very effective as a tactic as you go up in levels, and Lunge only works on your turn, not when someone else is moving.
==Aelryinth
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Your spellcaster's biggest threat fom melee fighters is the dreaded Charge action - they move up and hit you in one go, and you're instantly on the defensive as you try to take 5ft steps backwards to avoid threatening AoO with your casting...
... Luckily, it's easy to prevent. Just being on a higher elevation does the trick - and if you can force them to climb to get to you then it's 'ducks in a barrel' time for you. If you can't start on a higher elevation, then difficult terrain is your next best option, which prevents charging. There are plenty of spells out there to help with that, but the second level Stone Call is an absolute beauty - just check out the radius of effect on that puppy (plus a little damage, just to rub their noses in it)!
As far as Adventure Paths are concerned, they usually list the longer-term spells NPC casters will have cast before a battle, and have some advice on what tactics they'll tend to use in the fight too. You'll want to adapt these tactics to your group, of course, to make it an interesting fight, but it's always a good place to start. Also, most NPCs are encounted in areas they're familiar with, and the PCs aren't - so feel free to assume the NPC can make the best use of the terrain... especially their starting position when the PCs encounter them.
Even my ten-year-old knows, "Casters Die First!" She's a born fighter, I tell ya! :D
The best thing a caster can do early on is some conuter-mobility, from Solid Fog to Tentacles to...
After that (having bought time!) go after weak links-Fighter Will, Rogue Fort, etc. Allies always help-Summons or Dominate
Often the caster is best off going for the (dreaded) Save or Suck attacks. If given a good clean (everyone in the AoE) a blast of owwie may work, too.
The trick is to 1) seperate the PCs into 'bite size chunks', 2) destroy, or control the elements that get to you, 3) wipe up the remainder.
Scrolls can be real helpful.
Enjoy ;)
GNOME
Fear or no fear, its the only viable tactic against a caster if you're melee oriented. The fighter should not have to fear close range. the wizard SHOULD have to fear the hulking fighter with the big two handed sword getting in his face: thats why they made concentration checks an actual check rather than a formality.
Fighters ALREADY fear spellcasters. thats why they're trying to kill them so quickly.
In a recent session:
We were fighting one of scaly kinds finest, a wizard with some monkey mooks in Serpents Skull.
We knew snake-face was special, because he wasn't a monkey.
Combat begins and the cavalier (mounted) charges his way in.
His charge didnt get him far enough and snake-faces mooks mob him.
There is some pit or something, and due to the mob of mooks, I the ever valiant magus, take a running leap to clear the pit and make a B-Line for snake-face. amusing because we all assumed I would just plummet into the pit, but I did in fact make it.
Upon landing, mook-body guard (one step of from mook) gets in my face (very unpolite) and just happens to be a four armed gorilla who drums on my head like a samsonite suitcase.
The inquisitor misses snake face with her xbow, the witch missed with her bow and the dwarf, well you know dwarves, they get there when they get there.
More monkey mooks storm the rear echelon PCs, the cavalier is swarmed. snake-fast casts hold person one me and it works. 4-arm monkey drills me like an oil Derek. Snake-face manages a lightning-bolt that , get this, manages to hit the entire party, while frying only one monkey.
The cav and the rest of the party nail monkeys, I bleed.
4-arms moves over to play with the cav.
Monkeys flail their arms and do their thing.
snake face decides lightening bolt works so well....
Cav goes down.
Remaining monkeys work their way toward the rest of the party.
Dwarf is busy getting wrapped up by a constrictor snake.
Witch moves toward cav to heal him (pretty daring) and sends familiar far enough to heal me. (best use of deliver touch spell I've ever seen)
I get up and 4 arms isnt between me and snake face, do snakes eyes bulge?
Rear echelon party not doing well on remnant of monkey mooks, things look dire.
I don't reach snake-face as he spider climbs up a wall.
arg!!
Snake face didnt seem bothered by my burning hands much.
The battle runs on for another 4 turns until I get dropped again, with the wizard wall crawling and our big damage folks unable to hit him.
The witch'es familiar makes another round trip healing visit and Im up to 1 hp lobbing arrows at him on the wall from my back side (and manage to do the most damage) the cavalier went down again, but finally took 4 arms with him. The rest of the party is almost done competely themselves and it looks like snake-face is going to wipe us out, until:
The witch gets a crit with her ray and magic crit card said snake face gets stuck in "arcane goo" so he can't move or act. The inquisitors action was a wand of web on top of that. So in this case, Spells and spell casters nailed and brought to an end,the nasty wizard that almost tpkd us.
Spider climb worked pretty nasty to keep the wizard alive til the very end.
Some "I'll deal with you later" spells I've found/used for Spellcasting Enemies.
Maze
Hands of Force (any)
Wall spells (any, )
Pit Spells (Any, and seriously, where the hell have these been all my life?)
Summon Monster spells (Any, even if the monsters are just kibble, they will tie up the mooks for a round or two, and can provide you with soft cover in a pinch)
Illusion Spells (ALL. Seriously. Most cretins have terrible will saves, and even if the more mentally agile can figure it out, you get a free round to say "Okay, you're the main target, have a Save or Die spell!")
Will add more later, cats are practicing cannibalism again.