Haggling

[kryvnus]

Could I get some opinions on this use of the Diplomacy skill for as a house rule?

Commerce: You can also use Diplomacy to conduct trade. To do this you spend 1d6 x 10 minutes haggling with a merchant. The DC of this check is equal to the DC to improve the merchant's starting attitude. You gain a bonus on this check equal to +1 for every 4 ranks of Appraise you posess. If you succeed you gain a 5% bonus to buying and selling prices in your favor. For every 5 by which your check result exceeds the DC this bonus improves by 5%. The bonus granted by this check cannot exceed 20%. If you fail the check by 4 or less there is no change to buying and selling prices. If you fail by 5 or more, you take a 5% penalty to buying and selling prices for every 5 by which your check result falls short of the DC. The penalty imposed by failure cannot exceed 25%. You do not need to accept the results of this check and finalize the trade but if you leave without accepting the terms that merchant's attitude toward you is decreased by one step. Hostile creatures will always refuse to haggle with very few exceptions (GM discretion).

[Nigrescence]

I would suggest changing it from "gain a bonus on this check equal to +1 for every 4 ranks of Appraise you possess," to, "add a bonus to this check equal to your Appraise divided by 4."

I'd also suggest making Appraise a little bit more valuable (since knowing the value of things is quite important for this). Maybe divided by 3, or 2.

[jlord]

The house rule looks fine if you drop the appraisal bonus.

Appraise is already pretty important skill in haggling, as it is what determines the Item's value. Once you know it's worth, you don't really need the skill for haggling.

Personally I wouldn't bother with haggling, unless the players push it, in which case I would set up a preferred price that the NPC wants and the lowest he is willing to go. Remember, if the NPC can't make a profit in a timely manner on the item, they are not going to make a deal.

[kryvnus]

Thanks for the input. I do have to say I disagree with the "divide by" thing. The books don't really ever say to divide by and the "for every" wording is much more prevalent, but I definitely want to keep the Appraise bonus since it represents offer and counter-offer prices being cited by precedent. I might consider making it worth +1 for every 3 ranks.

Also, this is more for overall sales and purchases (think video game style bonuses and penalties to buying) not individual items which is why I wanted to include Appraise somehow without making it primary since it's only used for understanding value and not determining value.

I would prefer a preferred/minimum price system but I fear that would take too long, detracting from adventure and role-play time. I kinda set this up to appease my economic minded adventurers without taking too much time. They will push it, they always do. I just want it to go quick.

[Nigrescence]

kryvnus wrote:

Thanks for the input. I do have to say I disagree with the "divide by" thing. The books don't really ever say to divide by and the "for every" wording is much more prevalent, but I definitely want to keep the Appraise bonus since it represents offer and counter-offer prices being cited by precedent. I might consider making it worth +1 for every 3 ranks.

Also, this is more for overall sales and purchases (think video game style bonuses and penalties to buying) not individual items which is why I wanted to include Appraise somehow without making it primary since it's only used for understanding value and not determining value.

I would prefer a preferred/minimum price system but I fear that would take too long, detracting from adventure and role-play time. I kinda set this up to appease my economic minded adventurers without taking too much time. They will push it, they always do. I just want it to go quick.

The reason I suggested the change is because your wording merely counts ranks, and utterly disregards the modifiers (trained class skill bonus, INT, various other skill bonuses). It just doesn't make sense that way. Either change it around to account for those skill modifiers beyond just the number of ranks in it, or throw out the idea of adding Appraise to the check. Yes, it's much less prevalent, but the whole concept you're trying to add is utterly non-standard, so why get hung up on that very small aspect if it fits for the sake of balance otherwise? I mean, otherwise someone could be feebleminded and still have just as much of an advantage in selling/buying as normal.

If the wording truly offends you (for some strange reason), maybe change the wording to, "For every 4 Appraise skill the character possesses, add 1 to the result, or subtract 1 if their Appraise is negative."

You say Appraise is just for understanding value and not determining it, but you're wrong. It is explicitly for determining value. That is exactly its use. You use it to determine the value of objects. I don't know how much more clear this can get. I think what you mean to say is that it is for determining value, not for securing a deal with a merchant. Knowing the value of what you're buying helps to avoid being swindled, or to try to over-state its worth without over-valuing it too much (but it doesn't help with the way you phrase your statements, or how well you read the merchant for clues on tweaking his price line). That's what I thought you were going for by allowing it to modify the check.

[Sleep-Walker]

I am not keen on the fact that you can only get a 20% benefit, but you can get a 25% penalty. I would have those numbers be equal.

[devil.in.mexico13]

I like this in theory. My only problem with this kind of thing is that players tend to exploit the heck out of it and over time, the added wealth can unbalance the game.

I would also suggest dropping the appraise bonus entirely. Make it an opposed skill check, diplomacy (for the seller) vs appraise (for the buyer). Every round in favor of the buyer brings the price down 5%, every round in favor of the seller brings the price up 5%.

[Kalyth]

devil.in.mexico13 wrote:

I like this in theory. My only problem with this kind of thing is that players tend to exploit the heck out of it and over time, the added wealth can unbalance the game.

I would also suggest dropping the appraise bonus entirely. Make it an opposed skill check, diplomacy (for the seller) vs appraise (for the buyer). Every round in favor of the buyer brings the price down 5%, every round in favor of the seller brings the price up 5%.

That could turn into a long series of rolls.

[Asphesteros]

You could do it without so much of a house rule too.

Use Appraise skill to determine (in secret) how much both parties think the item is worth.

Allow the PC to improve his DCs by attempting to improve attitude of the merchant with diplomacy - i.e. schmoozing the merchant.

Allow the PC to attempt to make the merchant question his appraise valuation with a bluff checks - i.e. haggling. (If the merchant's attitude is helpful, rule "he wants to believe the PC" and have him secretly agree with the PC's valueation on a success, and just have him stick with his original valuation on a fail. If hostile, let him possbily intentionally misevaluate the item, overvaluing per a botch appriase roll)

Then, let the player make the offer and treat an offer below the actual value (or below the merchant's quote if over actual value) as 'making a request' with diplomacy. Determine the modifyer ad hoc based on how far the PC is off from the merchant's own percieved value.

Success, PC gets the item at the desired price. Fail, the PC can try another bid that would be an easier DC (factoring in the modifyer for multiple requests), i.e. a different request

[Skeld]

Kalyth wrote:

devil.in.mexico13 wrote:

I like this in theory. My only problem with this kind of thing is that players tend to exploit the heck out of it and over time, the added wealth can unbalance the game.

I would also suggest dropping the appraise bonus entirely. Make it an opposed skill check, diplomacy (for the seller) vs appraise (for the buyer). Every round in favor of the buyer brings the price down 5%, every round in favor of the seller brings the price up 5%.

That could turn into a long series of rolls.

You can also make it a single opposed roll. A professional merchant ought to be pretty good at haggling afterall.

-Skeld

EDIT: I don something like this if a player wants to haggle. The discount for a successful haggle isn't all that great either.

[dave.gillam]

One thing to remember is unless your merchant has skill in the creation/profession, he's never quite sure he wasnt conned as to the value of the product. Thats what haggling is (from the buying aspect) convincing him that what he's selling isnt so great. Real world, you'll never get lower than half, but.....

Some cultures prefer haggling, and its an insult if you dont. The price is set high assuming you'll badger it down, and if you entertaining, the merchant will take some extra off, just for the entertainment. (just dont tell anyone; he's got a reputation to uphold)