While I vaguely understand some of the opinions thrown about in regards to what 42 point-buy represents and the proportionate CR increase, I have difficulty empathizing with it.
I'm currently running a game where everyone rolled 4d6-drop lowest, then just used the best array out of the group. So everyone started with 17, 17, 15, 15, 13, 8 (42 point-buy). I can do stuff like throw a CR 5 when they're level 3 and they'll almost die, and CR 3 fights are properly challenging. I'm not ramping up the fights to 'counter' their stats, and they're not stomping through like superheroes.
Of course, I've also run an entire campaign using 32 point buy and Tome classes (those classes you've seen Frank Trollman posit). I can only imagine the power level you must assume that is like. But here's the thing: they'd still suffer heavily from a pair of minotaurs at level 5, be challenged by a trio of babau at level 9, nearly suffer a TPK from a CR 11 dragon at level 8, and all of these samples are monsters taken straight from the MM.
You really can have a different play experience that's just as valid AND uses the same challenges as other games to still have a discussion.
It's fine if the other players want to feel challenged, but I want to be like Bill Murray in Ghostbusters, just waltzing through the adventure.
Just a note, Bill almost died at the end of Ghostbusters, he was definitely challenged and it couldn't have gotten any closer to "the brink" for them. Not sure why you picked that example...
Bill is just chilled out because it's Bill, not because of the size of challenges he faces.
This is a silly conversation. Enjoy your game! lol
Kain, throwing a CR20 is not the same as having one scripted into the background (i.e. having a dragon ravage the village and yet having all the players have zero chance of getting killed by one of the breath weapons).
And pen's example while an encounter isn't having the dragon thrown at the party either. Let's take pen's example for a second...lets say the party went, screw this, I'm not gonna do what an evil dragon say, I kill it. Then what? Poof the dragon goes away...do you get exp for beating a CR 20 dragon right then and there? No you say? Then the dragon wasn't thrown at the party.
0 chance? Not at all. There were several times when our characters got caught in spells, and I suppose we could have gotten caught in the breath weapon too, if we were close enough. And I don't know what magic you think makes the dragon go poof. I suspect our characters would have gone splat instead.
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He's suggesting that the dragon was not meant to be interacted with meaningfully. That if they had thought "Let's take it on!" the DM would have said "Oh no, I can't kill them!" and the dragon would leave, via deus ex machina, or something to that effect.
Personally, I'd have no problems having them all get eaten. I try not to let bad rolls kill my characters, but bad player decisions are fair game.
He's suggesting that the dragon was not meant to be interacted with meaningfully. That if they had thought "Let's take it on!" the DM would have said "Oh no, I can't kill them!" and the dragon would leave, via deus ex machina, or something to that effect.
Personally, I'd have no problems having them all get eaten. I try not to let bad rolls kill my characters, but bad player decisions are fair game.
Yeah. Our DM would have had no problem killing our characters. A few sessions before that a streak of bad luck coupled with oversights on our part led to four adventuring parties in a row dying gruesomely before any of the characters (eighteen or so) even amassed a single XP. And he never let us write up the same character twice.
Ultimately, it boils down to one's idea of 'thrown at'. You can be thrown into a diplomatic encounter with the 20th level paladin king too, where the result of failure is your death. And again, no deus ex machina comes to save you.
As a GM in PF/D&D, it is more difficult for me to put forth an adequately challenging game for your high point buy characters.Let me stop you right there.
YOU do not have to GM for ME. Therefore, what problems you have, have nothing to do with how I play.
Which is why things like THIS:
So, what you're saying is you want a walk through Disney Land?irk me to no end.
Play your way, and stop looking down on me for the way I play.
Well let me stop YOU right there! First off meabolex was NOT looking down on you, he was just advocating the effect on game play from a GM's point of view. which in your selfishness you seem quick to forget that since your advocating a 40+ point buy for your PC that says that SOMEBODY IS GMing for you. And since it was stated that other players in your party were accusing you of power gaming and min maxing than it's not HOW "YOU play" as you put it. It's how YOU wish to play in a game which involves other players that feel differently. It's completely different because the game does not revolve around you. If you want to play your way with no consideration of other players or even open to consider a GM's side of it then thats something that irks me and a lot of other players and GMS. It's also offensive to GM's who you could care less of even hearing there side of it. when you start GMing a campaign that involves you controlling the pcs as well and your the only real person then your terms of I,ME, and MY will have merit. In a game of other players it has no place.
now with that said if you want to play in a higher stat campaign then it needs to be agreed upon by the whole group as higher stats change a lot. But if your just wanting to be the "strongest most powerful character ever who is gracious enough to let other unfortunate gimped players shine once in a while but throw out the trump card "you" to flash your awesomeness for all to behold at whim" then this is just selfish and most player will not even want you close to there game. After all who wants to be be a party of aquamen with superman in charge.
In a kingmaker campaign im running i let my players role 8+3d6 drop the lowest, abilities cap at 18 before racial mods, 12x, pick highest, and assign. They wanted uber stats, agreed upon by the whole party before the campaign started. Stat arrays pushed the players into super hero proportions with the highest stat array currently at 18 20 16 18 14 and 16. I'm running the AP to use as is, except using slow exp progression high treasure as the party wanted high wealth per level as well. Im also adding in other app quests to keep the players at the recommended levels for each book. The point of me running an adventure path in the first place was i'm working full time and work every other weekend , raising a family with a baby on the way, and i dont have the time to put hours a day into designing custom adventures and a campaign like i used too.
now let me tell you how this has played out so far with a 5 player superhero party,
The first few levels of the app the players destroyed every encounter with no threat what so ever to them. It was fun for them at first. Knowing how i run my campaign (we've played together for 10+ years) they were paranoid at first that i would be throwing super powerful monsters at them. well Since i used the AP as is they quickly came over this paranoia and resumed slaying and looting everything and now without fear. after a 2nd level of stealing candy from babies they started to state how nothing was a challenge and it was getting to repetitive, predictable and boring. Even the so called mini bosses were dropped before even all the players could get a turn in! It started to get to the point were they even dropped all tactics and it became a race among players to get there actions off before other players could drop the enemy. What started off fun and EXACTLY what the players wanted now fell on me to correct and adapt and to provide them with fun again and challenges.
AT first i was all for it, ok im the GM thats my job! I've been GMing for 10 years this will be easy all i need to do is adjust CR's and make encounters challenging again. well once you get into the business of super hero stats i can tell you that the game mechanics DO break down. Then add into account they have an extra player than recommended for the AP and higher treasure as well. It soon became clear it WAS NOT an easy fix. adding more multiple weaker opponents still dropped dead in the blink of an eye and still not challenging. Too high CR of one monster was too hard but a different monster of the same CR was too easy. melee was easier or harder but spells broke down or vice versa. It took a while to find a sweet spot and im still tweaking and adapting to them as they level and get new abilities. This has lead to me using mainly just the story of the app and adjusting every single encounter and stat block! Obviously this defeats the whole purpose of my reasons for running the app in the first place as it's eating up TONS of time and work. On top of that this is our transition into PF rules so more time learning all the rules and changes. Also kingmaker has new rules added upon new rules. I'm easily putting in 15-25 hours a week tailoring the AP to the players to make the game fun and challenging again for them. which they are having fun again but the point of the story is to point out that STATS do have a major impact on things from a GM's point of view and workload. Players often don't realize or even see it but it's not as simple as some may think! Now the only complaint from my players is we dont get to play that often. BUT, if i wasn't spending so much time adapting the adventures we could play more often.
In conclusion be careful what you wish for you may regret it. And always respect a fun hard working GM! Life is all about compromise. Cause in the end it's about EVERYONE having fun. While it IS a fantasy game and world, just like real life it can all come crumbling down.
After reading so many threads, even creating ones, that involve something to do with point buy, I've realized the array spread that I want for my characters.
18, 16, 14, 14, 13, 12
It comes out to a 42 point buy.
In my mind, that is a right and proper spread. You're a true hero, above average at everything, and being excellent at many things. My characters wouldn't be inhuman, but they would be the "total package" that they ought to be, right from level 1. I quite often dump several stats because I want my characters to excel at what they are meant to do, but it's annoying that you have to then have this radical swing with this "gotcha" weakness.
If I had my way, I'd play with that spread from here on out. I'd happily take +1 CR challenges to compensate for the underlying math of the system. Being able to go into any situation with confidence, being able to pull off anything well or at least with competency is the kind of character I want to play.
I'm hoping this is some kind of very clever satire. I really am.
Everyone has different ideas on what proper stats should be. Some like 10 point buy because no one is amasing. Some like 25. Personally, for me that stat line is a bit too good. If I were to give a stat line to all players it would be more like
17 16 15 13 12 10 or (35 point)
18 16 14 12 10 8 or (32 point)
18 15 14 13 12 10 (34 point)
If I gave my players point buy, I might go for 30. I prefer rolling though, and we use 3 sets of 4d6 drop low.
Thats also how we do it excecpt for one extra bonus, that being you may reroll your lowest roll but you must keep that roll even if it's worse than the original. With that said I always add two, maybe more grunts to balance everything out, for the game still must be challenging to get the most out of it.
It's funny how people have different views about how the game should be played and to me none are wrong. It truely is about having fun during play and being happy with your character @ the start of first session is how it should truely begin.
I object to the example of paladin kings with no option but death. But yes, overwhelming CRs can be used in very limited fashion. Poor use will seem hokey or completely metagame.
:) So I give you the CR 20 vs level 1 example, but you can't imagine the paladin king? Where is the trust?
Here we go. Your characters are villains or have been somehow utilized to look as such. Murdering rape-happy villains. They are captured and brought before the paladin king. The law demands your execution, but the king (because he is a paladin) is willing to hear you out on why you shouldn't be killed out of hand.
It's clearly a diplomatic encounter, but with deadly consequences for failure.
Now, in metagame reality, what you likely have here is an ECL 20 combat or an ECL 2-3 diplomatic encounter to choose from with low level players, but it is their choice.
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I said I don't buy a paladin king who will only accept the PCs death. Lawful Good is about doing what is right. Ensuring you are not executing innocent people is right. And a 20th level paladin has the tools to see through a framing.
Now if they ARE murdering rape-happy villians, well, that's just a bad player decision to do it as 1st level characters in a 20th level paladin's kingdom. :P
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0 chance? Not at all. There were several times when our characters got caught in spells, and I suppose we could have gotten caught in the breath weapon too, if we were close enough. And I don't know what magic you think makes the dragon go poof. I suspect our characters would have gone splat instead.Kain, throwing a CR20 is not the same as having one scripted into the background (i.e. having a dragon ravage the village and yet having all the players have zero chance of getting killed by one of the breath weapons).
And pen's example while an encounter isn't having the dragon thrown at the party either. Let's take pen's example for a second...lets say the party went, screw this, I'm not gonna do what an evil dragon say, I kill it. Then what? Poof the dragon goes away...do you get exp for beating a CR 20 dragon right then and there? No you say? Then the dragon wasn't thrown at the party.
The dragon going poof is in pen's example where it is an illusion.
As for getting caught in spells, I call BS. Your level 1...you get caught in any blasty spell tossed by a CR 20 dragon an your toast. You could save and your toast without the DM pulling a deus ex machina. If by getting caught in spells you mean CC spells with no follow up damage...once again see deus ex machina and zero chance of death.
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He's suggesting that the dragon was not meant to be interacted with meaningfully. That if they had thought "Let's take it on!" the DM would have said "Oh no, I can't kill them!" and the dragon would leave, via deus ex machina, or something to that effect.
Personally, I'd have no problems having them all get eaten. I try not to let bad rolls kill my characters, but bad player decisions are fair game.
Yeah. Our DM would have had no problem killing our characters. A few sessions before that a streak of bad luck coupled with oversights on our part led to four adventuring parties in a row dying gruesomely before any of the characters (eighteen or so) even amassed a single XP. And he never let us write up the same character twice.
Ultimately, it boils down to one's idea of 'thrown at'. You can be thrown into a diplomatic encounter with the 20th level paladin king too, where the result of failure is your death. And again, no deus ex machina comes to save you.
Once again mistaken. What is the diplomancy DC? DC 10? Then it is a CR 1 encounter. DC 50? Then it's a CR 20 encounter. So if your tossing a CR 20 encounter at the party, you are tossing a DC 50 diplo check at a party of level 1 with the failure being death. And that IS BAD DMING.
To each there own. I don't wish to throw cold water on anybody's fun, but given the legacy carry-over of stat-boosting items, why are these excessive point buys necessary?
25, 30+, 42 -- at 1st level? The type of competence expressed in the OP is clearly better suited to a supers game.
If you want to run a game where the PCs are demi-god level, go for the higher point-buy options but start at something higher than level 1. By having 1st level characters with excessive point-buys, you're effectively gimmicking the system to operate at a higher level anyway.
badwrongfun sounds like something involving underage halfling girlfriends and too much butterbeer.
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Oh noes. People want to play powerful 1st level characters. Those horrible people. They are having badwrongfun. We must tell them how to play it right.
I am with TriOmegaZero. Sometimes you want your players to be special right off the bat. Sure CR 1 encounters will be cakewalks, and sure you will level much, much quicker since you are only challenged by higher CR fights, but if that is what you want to do at the time, do it.
I only criticize when people who do this then say the game is broken, not realizing they aren't playing the game as written.
How are these PB values considered enough for a full CR increase? The final stat differences between 'standard' and something like 37 (17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10) is only two points; yet the Advanced template gives a +4 to all stats AND +2 natural armor, increasing CR only by 1.
In many cases, the primary stat isn't going to be changed much, because that's the important one (especially the SAD ones). It'll be the secondary and dump stats that will be influenced the most. If you buff a wizard's Str/Cha by 4 each, you haven't functionally increased his power one whit.
If players want high stats and to increase the chances of success, why not. It could chance the dynamic of the game. At first level rather than just having 4-5 CR equivalent encounters you could have more. They would have to deal with more attrition, they would feel heroic (with greater hit %).
This would mean that spellcasters would run out of spells but the PC's could still go on. They would have the resources to still carry on.
Oh noes. People want to play powerful 1st level characters. Those horrible people. They are having badwrongfun. We must tell them how to play it right.
My point was that by skewing the system, you're effectively taking a 1-20 level scale and shifting it to a 4-Epic (or some other approximation). If that's the plan, why not just start the campaign at a higher level but still fight your CR1 encounters?
Oh wait, why am I explaining this to you? Your snarky and condescending jabs, while weak attempts at taking a superior tone, fall flat.
It's ok, kiddo. I apologize. I'll just go back to skipping past your posts.
As for getting caught in spells, I call BS. Your level 1...you get caught in any blasty spell tossed by a CR 20 dragon an your toast. You could save and your toast without the DM pulling a deus ex machina. If by getting caught in spells you mean CC spells with no follow up damage...once again see deus ex machina and zero chance of death.
First off, why try to call BS? A pointless and futile gesture on your part. I could recreate the entire battle roll for roll from ten years ago, and if I was lying to begin with, I'll still be lying then and I'm not suddenly going to come clean to you. If I wasn't, no amount of description on my end will convince you otherwise. Ultimately, it is just a pigheaded move by you that doesn't advance the conversation at all.
Second off, all your claims that there were zero chance of death are silly, uninformed and again, not advancing communication in the slightest. You weren't there. I was. I'm your only source of information for the entire situation. You aren't going to come up with some stellar insight on the facts of the matter, so why don't you tone down the rhetoric? We were at risk for death, same as if our first battle had been against orcs or some other low level menace.
Telekinesis, scorching ray for sure and something I remember like reverse gravity that flung the fighter on top of a building all hit the party. However, most of the challenge, like I said from the beginning and haven't tried to hide in the slightest, was more from trying to save people at risk from the fires, collapsing buildings, etc.
Once again mistaken. What is the diplomancy DC? DC 10? Then it is a CR 1 encounter. DC 50? Then it's a CR 20 encounter. So if your tossing a CR 20 encounter at the party, you are tossing a DC 50 diplo check at a party of level 1 with the failure being death. And that IS BAD DMING.
Tiresome. Really? I need you to let me know when I've made a mistake? You like taking my words out of context, in a hyperactive manner. Don't you worry about my bad DMing, if it gets you so worked up. CR 20 can be thrown at level 1 characters, and it need not be a terrible experience. If you can't accept that, then I heartily suggest you don't try it.
I said I don't buy a paladin king who will only accept the PCs death. Lawful Good is about doing what is right. Ensuring you are not executing innocent people is right. And a 20th level paladin has the tools to see through a framing.
Now if they ARE murdering rape-happy villians, well, that's just a bad player decision to do it as 1st level characters in a 20th level paladin's kingdom. :P
No, no. Not 'only accept their death'. That's what the diplomatic encounter would be for. To avoid that death. Whether it be deserved or mistaken. And even 20th level paladins can be fooled. If the crime were bad enough, it might call for their lawful execution. But this is getting off topic twice over now, so let's assume I said wizard king.
Ideally, you set things up with a small chance for terrible and great results, and then fairly even chances for good and bad result, with the assumption that the game goes on unless Terrible occurs. At least, that's been my experiences with things like this.
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Stuff
Once again, BS. Scorching ray by the dragon is doing 12d6. Assuming I don't roll all ones, your one dead level 1 character. Telekensis is used as a thrust is 15d6...once again death. Reverse gravity? 20d6. The fact that you DID NOT DIE means he pulled a deus ex machina to keep you from dying. The dragon had zero chance of killing you because the DM would not allow it to. That isn't a CR 20 gragon tossed at the party, it's a dragon in the background that has some minor effects on your attempts to save peasants...i.e. he is scenery...not an encounter. The encounter was the burning village. And you know what I bet the ONLY chance the dragon had any chance of taking the party out if they did not go along with the DM's story line...which makes it not just scenery but a rail roading device. But that last bit if just conjecture and so I can't exactly call your DM out on that...but if that is the case, that is generally considered being a bad DM by the general populace.
As for the paladin...the paladin being level 20 is not the challenge. The challeneg is to meet the diplo DC. If that DC is low, like say 10, then yes it is a CR 1 encounter...and like any other encounters, failure = death. If the DC is 50...well now that is CR 20 challenge. So like I said, the paladin in that case isn't a CR 20 challenge unless the DC is 50. If your making a party of level 1 character make a DC 50 diplomacy check or they die...well that to me is being a bad DM. If you don't agree with that, you and I just have vastly different opinion of what is a bad DM.
I don't listen.
Scorching ray does 3 rays of 4d6 actually, check out the rules since you seem to know them so well. That could be 12d6, but even a simple bit of thought would point out that could also be 4d6 to three targets.
However, I seem to be mistaken on the specific spell. Scorching ray didn't exist in 3.0, so it must have been flame arrow. Similar concept however, ranged touch vs 4d6 fire, but with a reflex save for half damage.
Violent thrust telekinesis - 1d6 damage if thrown against a solid object, or 1d6 damage per 25 lbs or unmodified weapon damage thrown at you.
Reverse gravity - damage like falling if you hit a solid object. Damage when the spell ends from falling. Gets 10 ft. per 2 levels. That's a maximum of 90 ft, and thus 9d6 unlike the 20d6 you claim, but I think it was spread out a lot more than a 10 ft. square, so more likely 20 x 20 x 20, so 2d6 falling damage. 1d6 with a DC 15 Tumble check, but since he fell on the roof, I don't think it was any damage. Might have been a Reflex save to catch the roof. Not sure, ten years is pretty long, and I've not played 3.0 in forever.
Really, I said all that so I could say this, you continue to run your mouth about things you don't know. Even, it would seem, the very rules. I told you to tone down the BS claims and the hyper aggression, but you insisted. Now you look silly. None of those attacks would "have definitely killed a first level character in one shot without deus ex machina", but all of them could have, had rolls been failed or high damage come out.
As for the lame and accusation in poor taste of bad DMing, we all had fun. Made weekends without pass or on lockdown a lot more bearable, especially after 9-11. Sgt Petry wasn't a bad DM by any measure, given that he taught three soldiers new to D&D an edition he was just learning himself. All who went on to run their own games later on, both in the Army and beyond.
But I'm sure you have something contrary to say about that. However, since you've paid only scant attention to my previous posts, I'm going to return the favor and give none to those of yours in the future. If it makes your games more fun to imagine that mine aren't, go right ahead. No wrong way to play.
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I don't listen.Scorching ray does 3 rays of 4d6 actually, check out the rules since you seem to know them so well. That could be 12d6, but even a simple bit of thought would point out that could also be 4d6 to three targets.
However, I seem to be mistaken on the specific spell. Scorching ray didn't exist in 3.0, so it must have been flame arrow. Similar concept however, ranged touch vs 4d6 fire, but with a reflex save for half damage.
Violent thrust telekinesis - 1d6 damage if thrown against a solid object, or 1d6 damage per 25 lbs or unmodified weapon damage thrown at you.
Reverse gravity - damage like falling if you hit a solid object. Damage when the spell ends from falling. Gets 10 ft. per 2 levels. That's a maximum of 90 ft, and thus 9d6 unlike the 20d6 you claim, but I think it was spread out a lot more than a 10 ft. square, so more likely 20 x 20 x 20, so 2d6 falling damage. 1d6 with a DC 15 Tumble check, but since he fell on the roof, I don't think it was any damage. Might have been a Reflex save to catch the roof. Not sure, ten years is pretty long, and I've not played 3.0 in forever.
Really, I said all that so I could say this, you continue to run your mouth about things you don't know. Even, it would seem, the very rules. I told you to tone down the BS claims and the hyper aggression, but you insisted. Now you look silly. None of those attacks would "have definitely killed a first level character in one shot without deus ex machina", but all of them could have, had rolls been failed or high damage come out.
As for the lame and accusation in poor taste of bad DMing, we all had fun. Made weekends without pass or on lockdown a lot more bearable, especially after 9-11. Sgt Petry wasn't a bad DM by any measure, given that he taught three soldiers new to D&D an edition he was just learning himself. All who went on to run their own games later on, both in the Army and beyond.
But I'm sure you have something contrary to say...
Really?!? Do you even know what the rules your spouting wrong are?!? And who's NOT listening...I'm not saying that the dragon isn't a CR 20 critter, I'm saying that the dragon used as a duex ex machina is not a CR 20 encounter...it's scenery.
Flame arrow did not have a save for half. It was 4d6 straight up damage. And the dragon would get 5 of them. He sends two per PC...that is two dead PC per spell.
Reverse gravity is 10 square feet PER level...not 2. Yes it can arranged in a gimp manner so you only fly up 10 feet and then fall for no damage...but that goes toward my argument of the dragon is scenery. Also it would not work on the PCs while in a house unless the dragon was also in the house...no line of effect.
Telekensis is 1d6 PER item thrust and he gets 15 items...that I believe is 15d6 no? Unless once again the dragon is being utterly DUMB with the damage distribution like the flaming arrow, that is some dead PCs I see.
Don't give me that I don't know crap...the dragon was played like a moron...else your all dead. I am not doubting you guys having fun...but that dragon was NOT a CR 20 encounter because the DM would not allow it to be (because you'd all die).
Well let me stop YOU right there!TL;DR. Read the rest of the thread please.
Edit: Skimmed a bit. You seem to be confused. I am not the OP. And as I said elsewhere, I AM the GM of a 42-point buy game. Again, read the rest of the thread before responding to old posts.
my bad, apologies.
i did read the entire thread however, i just got lost back tracking at 6am all blurry eyed.
well if your the GM no problem on your part, run a 100 point buy if you want. my point of view still remains however. If the GM or the players overall want that kind of high starting stats then by all means. The people i disagree with are ones who dont GM and want there high stats with no regard to the other players or the GM. IN essence they want it there way, fed to them on a silver spoon with no regards to how others wish to play the game. I don't see the point in such a high stat array and wanting easy encounters just so you can slaughter everything. I don't think many players would find this fun for very long? Its one thing to have high stats and fighting stronger advanced monsters. Its a completely different matter having high stats so you can murder O level nobodies like the OP hinted at.
In the latter case you dont even need the rules. just role play it out how you know it's going to end. example " the orc swings his axe and you easily deflect his meager attempt to kill you. You counter his attack decapitating him as his head tumbles into the sunset. you grab his money pouch, kick dirt on his corpse, and turn to the rest of his tribe as they flee in terror running off into the mountains." Rinse and repeat.
you know with high stats and easy CR encounters they are ALWAYS going to play out like this-that's why there easy encounters! So why even waste time with things like AC, attack bonus, and damage, and die rolls? It seems a waste of time to roll dice if you only have a 5% chance of taking a flesh wound.
If that's the type of game you want to run or play in then by all means. but i can't say i know ANYONE who wants to play like that. It's not my cup of tea, i would rather play chess by myself and brag how i never lose a game lol.
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*gasp* :o
Our group prefers rolling 4d6 drop the lowest 4 times, and take the best set.
We generally play way above CR, and often end up over WBL as well.
It is the DM's job to adjust the game to the players, as the DM has all the resources and knowledge.
I find low point buy games rather slow, but I can see why others like them. If we had one DM running one game weekly, I would want it to last awhile. But we have several DM's and multiple games going, so it is easy to forget what is going on between gaps if your character doesn't grow quickly enough that you are excited about leveling every few sessions.
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If that's the type of game you want to run or play in then by all means. but i can't say i know ANYONE who wants to play like that. It's not my cup of tea, i would rather play chess by myself and brag how i never lose a game lol.
In battles where it's clear who is going to win, I just say 'yeah, you finish them off without much trouble'.
However, the elven fighter has died twice, once against a phantasmal killer, once against a drow fighter.
The Savage Species eladrin character has been brought to single digits and only saved by his incorporeal form by both demons and dragons.
The fighter was kidnapped and turned to stone by the local thieves guild.
All of this by perfectly legal die rolls. Easy CRs don't mean the encounter will always be a win. Die rolls can even the score very quickly.
I have six players in my game, with a seventh on hiatus due to work. If you're ever in Austin, we'd be happy to meet you so you CAN say you know someone who does.
I find low point buy games rather slow, but I can see why others like them. If we had one DM running one game weekly, I would want it to last awhile. But we have several DM's and multiple games going, so it is easy to forget what is going on between gaps if your character doesn't grow quickly enough that you are excited about leveling every few sessions.
Amen to that. You've just got to find a power level and advancement rate that suits your group. I can at least give Pathfinder that, since the alternate XP charts show that you can change things up like that.
Well, I actually meant that "So the elite array is statistically worse than rolling?"
That its stat allocation could be better is not really something I even thought was up for dispute. ^^
I'm going a bit OT but I wanted to say...
Well, it depends on how you mean by "worse" in relation to statistics. 15 point buy is a 100% chance of 15 point buy, end of story.
4d6 drop lowest gives you a high chance (I don't know the exact percentage but I'm sure there's some obliging gamer with the numbers out there) of 20 point buy equivalent, but it's definitely not a 100% chance. You also have a smaller chance--but still a chance--of getting 15 or 10 point buy or thereabouts (I say this having recently rolled a 15 point buy character, and that was the better of the two stat arrays I rolled). There is, indeed, a chance of rolling 4 1s. It is a small chance, but it has happened, and statistically speaking, will happen again--just not very often. (And of course, there is also a small chance of rolling much higher than 20 point buy. I recall a character I rolled once whose array was 17, 17, 17, 15, 10, 9)
The problem with people saying rolling always gets you better stats ignore the fact that, say, a 80% chance is NOT a 100% chance. There's a 5% chance of rolling a 1 on a d20 but we all know that 5% has hit us at some point, perhaps more often than we'd like.
It's basically like gambling. You can bet on the "sure thing" that will give you a solid, if seen by some as mediocre, win, or you can bet on the thing that will give you the higher win--but there's always a chance you'll lose.
For some the risk is worth it, others it's not--it's all down to preference and the GM's willingness to be able to account for a random, slight variation in power level amongst his or her PCs.
Im guessing things would be rough for spell casters and those attribute bonuses at level 4 and 8 would be necessary just to cast spells of the next level, could be interesting.
would be harder to qualify for certain feats like TWF and combat expertise and combat reflexes, but then again characters who had them would be all the rarer! and when you whipped it out on someone it would be very unlikely to be countered. I might try a game like that some time.
This is going back a few pages, but...
In my experience, you're right about stuff like TWF but wrong about spellcasters -- unless you have the kind of GM who's offended by the 20 INT level 1 wizard and will gun for his low stats a lot more than would occur in any published adventure, it's a very workable choice.
Note that I don't say invincible, but certainly no weaker than other 15 point buy characters you could make instead.
As my point the whole time has been 'stop condemning other people's playstyle'. Which dismissing the game as a 'supers' or 'demigod' level is.
That's a fine point (: I guess if I had to summarize my point, it would be:
Don't make any kind of statement about the balance of the game, how the game is structured, any advice about characters, advice about which spell is effective or not, which ability is effective or not, which skill is useful or not, blah blah blah. . . *UNLESS* you have significant experience playing the standard fantasy Pathfinder. Or at least put a disclaimer in each post indicating that your game varies from the given rules or uses a lot of 3rd party content. Because otherwise, we're not going to be talking about the same thing very frequently.
I know many conversations I've had on this forum have been from people playing with a lot of 3rd party content or huge point buys. Once I find that out, I realize we're speaking slightly different languages.
My issue is mainly a communication problem that people on the forum tend to have. I do submit advice for new GMs who don't know any better, but if you're an old pro GM, do what you want. My advice to the OP was that I don't think adding to the point buy will actually make the game work like he wants.
If that's the type of game you want to run or play in then by all means. but i can't say i know ANYONE who wants to play like that. It's not my cup of tea, i would rather play chess by myself and brag how i never lose a game lol.In battles where it's clear who is going to win, I just say 'yeah, you finish them off without much trouble'.
However, the elven fighter has died twice, once against a phantasmal killer, once against a drow fighter.
The Savage Species eladrin character has been brought to single digits and only saved by his incorporeal form by both demons and dragons.
The fighter was kidnapped and turned to stone by the local thieves guild.All of this by perfectly legal die rolls. Easy CRs don't mean the encounter will always be a win. Die rolls can even the score very quickly.
I have six players in my game, with a seventh on hiatus due to work. If you're ever in Austin, we'd be happy to meet you so you CAN say you know someone who does.
I find low point buy games rather slow, but I can see why others like them. If we had one DM running one game weekly, I would want it to last awhile. But we have several DM's and multiple games going, so it is easy to forget what is going on between gaps if your character doesn't grow quickly enough that you are excited about leveling every few sessions.Amen to that. You've just got to find a power level and advancement rate that suits your group. I can at least give Pathfinder that, since the alternate XP charts show that you can change things up like that.
well i don't know your players i only know mine. Mine are 10 year vets and the've never been in danger of dying in an easy CR encounter. It's probably different with players who haven't played for a decade, not saying your players haven't. If players are dying fighting easy encounters though then there probably making poor choices, the result of multiple crits and horrible rolling,a combination of, or for some reason your encounter levels aren't equaling easy for some reason. every group is different and its the GM who needs to figure out if an encounter CR is truly easy or epic. After all if it's suppose to be easy then it should, players aren't suppose to have to expend that many resources to win an easy encounter let alone die! it's been a rough road figuring out what CR actually equal easy-epic for my group. easy to them has been on average +1-+2 ECL and what i thought would be a hard enounter a few times they breezed through a +3-4 ECL. the've fought one epic battle with no deaths (close but not quite) and it was a +6 ECL!
i guess this proves that the book really means squat. whats hard to one party is an average bar fight to another party.
my players all have uber high stats and over WPL. while many may consider it a monty haul meets super hero campaign my players have earned every bit, like i stated earlier i've been adjusting for there abilities. while they may be super heroes with batman like gadgets there also constantly fighting super villians. If anyone is running kingmaker and played out any random encounter you know what im talking about. they haven't lost or ran from any random battles yet and all monsters they encountered have the advance templets or more. they even managed to kill an advanced willow wisp at level 2 while it gained suprise on them while on watch for the night. i hinted they were in way over there heads and my jaw dropped when they stood there ground and pulled off the win. To me and my players i find battles like that more remarkable and memorable than beating down a couple kobolds. ofc sometimes it can be fun to kick some gruby kobolds around so they know who is top dog in the land.
all in all every group is different and there is no right way or wrong way to play as long as EVERYONE is having fun.
My players use 4D6 - lowest for their stats, though their most recent characters have quite a range of power in their stats. Personally, I like playing with whatever I end up with, good or bad; but this group has some characters with around 40 points, and some with around 15. I don't alter the CR unless it's in dire need, but as you can guess, this makes some PC's utterly useless in some scenarios, and some "boss-like" monsters don't stand a chance.
My players use 4D6 - lowest for their stats, though their most recent characters have quite a range of power in their stats. Personally, I like playing with whatever I end up with, good or bad; but this group has some characters with around 40 points, and some with around 15. I don't alter the CR unless it's in dire need, but as you can guess, this makes some PC's utterly useless in some scenarios, and some "boss-like" monsters don't stand a chance.
Yeah I did a 4d6 drop lowest for my current group's stats. The core problem with dice rolling is that dice rolling's random probability doesn't care about anything else. For instance, the players in the group who were the most experienced rolled gigantic 40+ point buy equivalent stats. The players who were brand new to 3.X/PF rolled between 10 and 12 point buy. I added some balancing mechanisms to try and bring the other players closer to the "good" group, but that ultimately messes up balance. Now I'm altering encounters, adding additional challenge rating, and doing GM alchemy to make things challenging. It's working, but I'm unsatisfied that I have to do significantly more work because I picked rolling over point buy.
Yeah I did a 4d6 drop lowest for my current group's stats. The core problem with dice rolling is that dice rolling's random probability doesn't care about anything else. For instance, the players in the group who were the most experienced rolled gigantic 40+ point buy equivalent stats. The players who were brand new to 3.X/PF rolled between 10 and 12 point buy. I added some balancing mechanisms to try and bring the other players closer to the "good" group, but that ultimately messes up balance. Now I'm altering encounters, adding additional challenge rating, and doing GM alchemy to make things challenging. It's working, but I'm unsatisfied that I have to do significantly more work because I picked rolling over point buy.
I lucked out in a way, the campaign I'm currently running is The Witchfire Trilogy (converted of course) which provides a lot of overwhelming hordes, low amounts of gold, and even lower amounts of magic. Arcane magic has dangerous potential, and divine magic is dangerous if you're helping someone of opposing faith; so although my party balance is skewed, the game runs them through some trials anyway.
In one round, they have managed to take out the Gorax in Fort Ryhker, which was 1 CR higher than the EL. The paladin and one of the barbarians (two of the 40ish point characters) also took on an astral stalker at level 3 by themselves.