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Okay, internal logic here. Follow my logic please, bolding in the appropriate locations.
The cost of an Ioun torch is 75 GP.
This item is merely a burned out, dull gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it.
Okay, so we know from Seeker of Secrets that a dull gray Ioun stone costs 25gp, and costs 12gp 5sp to create one.
So the costing line of an Ioun torch is 50GP from ruby dust, 12 gp 5 sp from creating a dull gray ioun stone, and then the cost (according to most magic items) should be doubled (125 gp).
Now, please follow the following logic, as I am looking at this for my own games.
The magic item has a spell cast upon it. So, it is a magic item, the Ioun Stone is. It is also a spellcasting service, since the item has a continual flame spell cast upon it.
Therefore, the cost of the item should relate much more similarly to an Everburning Torch, which is a torch with a continual flame spell cast upon it, which costs 110 gp.
Now, the Ioun torch should cost such (market price):
25gp for the Ioun stone plus 50gp for the ruby dust plus spellcasting services (see below)
Arcane caster (wizard) Level 2 spell times level 3 caster times 10 gp equals 60 gp.
Divine Caster (cleric) level 3 spell times level 5 caster times 10gp is 150 GP.
So an arcane Ioun torch would cost 135 gp, whilst a Divine Ioun torch would cost 225gp.
So, if you purchase the Ioun stone and cast the spell yourself, your cost is 75 GP (as shown on the actual magic item), if you create everything yourself, then the cost is 62.5 gp (cost of Dull Gray Ioun stone plus 50gp in ruby dust).
It just seems unfair that an item so much better than an everburning torch costs so much less. What fighter who wants to hold a greatsword and have a light source at the same time wouldn't spend 35 gp less (based on book cost) to get a this? Nay, I say, I would spend 25 to 50gp more for such an item.
magic items once you have a formula usually don't care if it's arcane or divine. just wanted to offer that. you just need it on your spell list. this would mater for a new unique item but not one out of the book.
so the different levels for continual flame won't matter.
never personally bought the ioun aptorch though.
so the different levels for continual flame won't matter.
Unfortunately it does matter what level the spell is for the purposes of darkness levels and what spell takes precedence.
Plus, if the item is a magic item plus a spell effect, and not a magic item in total, it does matter, because it follows the same pattern of assuming that an everburning torch is equal to the cost of spellcasting services plus material components.
Its also important because a dispel on a magic item will suppress the item, but a dispel on a spell effect will dispel the spell effect and it will need to be recast.
Basically what you've discovered is the trouble with cost to create and retail value.
The Ioun torch is priced at the first, the everburning torch at the second.
Don't expect that Ye Olde Magicke Items Shoppe is pricing its everburning torches at 110 without also pricing its Ioun torches at 135.
One should also note that since an everburning torch doesn't produce any heat, there's no reason it couldn't be holstered on a belt, a backpack, or attached to a quiver. You do not have to hold it in your hand like a real torch.
It also doesn't cause that nasty strobing effect when the light source circles your head, which would be a real drawback with Ioun torches.
so the different levels for continual flame won't matter.
An arcane darkness spell will not overcome a 3rd level cleric light spell (continual flame) versus the arcane version, which is the same level. "Equal or lower level effects" can be dispelled by darkness.
I think the formula is sound for what I did, but the more I look at it it's a magic item with a spell effect on it...
And Kevin, I agree whole-heartedly about Ye Olde Magic Shoppe's pricing rules. Too bad there's not a strobe light effect in the rules to support the annoying headache that the Ioun torch has got to be causing.
so the different levels for continual flame won't matter.
An arcane darkness spell will not overcome a 3rd level cleric light spell (continual flame) versus the arcane version, which is the same level. "Equal or lower level effects" can be dispelled by darkness.
I think the formula is sound for what I did, but the more I look at it it's a magic item with a spell effect on it...
And Kevin, I agree whole-heartedly about Ye Olde Magic Shoppe's pricing rules. Too bad there's not a strobe light effect in the rules to support the annoying headache that the Ioun torch has got to be causing.
if I'm making a pre designed magic item rather than a unique on. the level I get continual flame at doesnt matter.
what caster level do I want it at? probky what the default is. do I k ow continual flam us or no. if no add to dificulty. I don't actually need it on my spell list.
arcane casters and divine casters make these items for the exact same costs.
if I wanted to make a unique item it would.
The ioun torch is made out of trash while the everburning torch is made of carved wood?
Edit: Apparently all dull grey stones are "burned out." Unless ioun torches are made from especially burned out stones.
so the different levels for continual flame won't matter.
An arcane darkness spell will not overcome a 3rd level cleric light spell (continual flame) versus the arcane version, which is the same level. "Equal or lower level effects" can be dispelled by darkness.
I think the formula is sound for what I did, but the more I look at it it's a magic item with a spell effect on it...
And Kevin, I agree whole-heartedly about Ye Olde Magic Shoppe's pricing rules. Too bad there's not a strobe light effect in the rules to support the annoying headache that the Ioun torch has got to be causing.
if I'm making a pre designed magic item rather than a unique on. the level I get continual flame at doesnt matter.
what caster level do I want it at? probky what the default is. do I k ow continual flam us or no. if no add to dificulty. I don't actually need it on my spell list.
arcane casters and divine casters make these items for the exact same costs.
if I wanted to make a unique item it would.
Actually Mojorat, that's the problem. It is both a magic item AND a spell cast upon said item. The first bolded line, placed here again for no more scrolling's sake is directly from the Advanced Player's Guide Word for Word:
This item is merely a burned out, dull gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it.
So the magic item is a dull gray ioun stone (which markets for 25 gp, according to seeker of secrets, 12gp 5sp for cost to create). Sadly, it's not considered trash, apparently Traken (wish that were the case, then this would be easier).
The spell was then CAST upon the item. This does fall into spellcasting services, as per the standard services chart in the Core Rulebook (spell level x caster level x 10gp). The spell being cast into it (as is surmised) is the lowest level possible if you're just buying it at market, thus an arcane caster. That makes it 135gp at market value.
There's a premium if it's a cleric spell because of the higher level (and, as such, higher caster level cost), and can't be dispelled with Darkness (or any darkness effect of 2nd level or lower). Thus the 225 GP cost. Now, why didn't they place this into misc. goods, rather than magic items? Simple, the magic item (ioun stone) made it HAVE to go to wondrous items. The dull gray Ioun stone is simply a front for the spellcasting.
That's my disconnect. It's listed as a magic item, but it's both a magic item and a spellcasting service as per its own description. In my first example I used the EXACT same type of item as the basis for what they did (an everburning torch), which has a cost from a caster level 3 wizard of 110gp (60 for the casting from a 3rd level wizard, 50 for the components) for the casting and boom done (technically 1cp short on cost, but semantics aside). Why didn't this follow that same logic?
Now, let's play magic items (wondrous items, specifically)
Almost every magic item out there DOUBLES the base price to create versus the market price. I say almost because this one obviously doesn't. The cost to create is 62.5gp. That's the cost of the Ioun stone plus the cost of the components for the spell (50gp for continual flame). The internal logic there says it costs 125 gp at market.
So, my next question is, since we want to treat this as a magic item, rather than a magic item with a spell cast on it, are there any other magic items that don't double the cost that I can't think of at the moment?
Excuse me if I am wrong, but despite the fancy description it is a wondrous item and to create it the spell doesn't actually have to be cast, thus bypassing the 50 gold component I think..
Excuse me if I am wrong, but despite the fancy description it is a wondrous item and to create it the spell doesn't actually have to be cast, thus bypassing the 50 gold component I think..
Doublecheck page 549 of the core book. "Costly material components" is the key word here. 50gp worth of ruby dust would still need to be consumed. The spell also must be known to the caster or available through some means (i.e. scroll).
(I do like the logic, and this is making me think about magic items much more thorougly nowadays)
Excuse me if I am wrong, but despite the fancy description it is a wondrous item and to create it the spell doesn't actually have to be cast, thus bypassing the 50 gold component I think..Doublecheck page 549 of the core book. "Costly material components" is the key word here. 50gp worth of ruby dust would still need to be consumed. The spell also must be known to the caster or available through some means (i.e. scroll).
(I do like the logic, and this is making me think about magic items much more thorougly nowadays)
I didnt check at all, just figured you didnt need it, since you can make a spellcraft check nowadays
I had always assumed that these items weren't intentionally made, just old wizards or estates trying to pawn off the more worthless junk as best they can.
Something like it was a better ioun stone that got burnt out and the wizard had already cast continual flame on it before hand.
I love that logic for the cost at an "estate sale," but, sadly, we have prices for all the ioun stones (even dull gray).
(the ones that burn out are exceedingly expensive, BTW, so that would have to be a factor in this one's cost in my mind, which should and would be prohibitively expensive for what this is).
My biggest question is are we treating this as a magic item, or are we treating it as a Magic Item (burnt out stone) with a spell cast upon it?
The two of them have different costs associated with them, and that's the problem because neither of those costs are 75gp!
Stubbs: Seeker of Secrets has costs for the Dull Gray Ioun stones. So, apparently, someone is actively creating these things (and they have a cost of 12 gold 5 silver to create, with a market value of 25gold). I wish it were cost of 0, to make this easier to understand.
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Honestly, everything is written by different authors coming from different assumptions.
The price of the Ioun Torch is obvious the cost of the burnt out stone (25 GP) plus the cost of the material component of the spell (50 GP). That gives you 75.
The price of the everburning torch is the price of the spellcasting service (60 GP) plus the cost of the material component (50 GP). That gives you 110.
What you can derive from this is sometimes wizards do spellcasting for free. Yes, they're supposed to charge book rates, but in reality, sometimes they wouldn't.
The base value of an everburning torch is 50 GP because that's what it costs in ruby dust to make one. A shopkeeper would never sell one for less that 50 GP because that's what it costs to make one, but he very well might sell it for cost as a favor to a customer because if he has a wizard coming in buying all sorts of stuff including 50 GP of ruby dust, he knows what its for and selling the torch for the price of the ruby dust may please the customer and isn't going to put the shopkeeper out much, especially if he's a sorcerer and can cast more Continual Flames per day than he'd ever be able to sell at going book rates.
The base value of the Ioun torch is 75 GP.
There's already a ruling in the book that says that holy water is sold at cost so don't expect to get rich by selling holy water. Just assume the mage's guild has started doing the same thing with everburning torches, lower the cost to the component, and let it go from there.
If you think of it as a business, the mages guild has everburning torches as their loss leaders. When people show up to buy light bulbs, they'll see the spiffier and costlier things they have for sale.
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Don't expect that Ye Olde Magicke Items Shoppe is pricing its everburning torches at 110 without also pricing its Ioun torches at 135.
That's my thought. If the Everburning Torch is properly priced at 110 gp, and uses a negligible cost (3 cp?) Torch as it's base component, then an Everburning Ioun Stone, which uses a 25 gp dull gray Ioun Stone for a base, is gonna cost 25 gp more.
Spellcasting services cost spell level x caster level x 10 gp (per Core p 159), plus the 50 gp cost of the components for Continual Flame, so that's 110 gp right there. 110 gp added to the 25 gp cost for a dull gray Ioun Stone comes out to 135 gp for an Everburning Ioun Stone.
It costs less to make, obviously, as someone with the Create Wondrous Item feat can whip up a dull gray Ioun Stone for 12.5 gp, and cast Continual Flame for 50 gp. (or less, if he can get a Lantern Archon to do it or something), but it's gonna sell for 135 gp.
The ruthless shield golem-bound guild enforcers of the Kalistocracy's Magick Item Crafting Union 101 will be along to make sure that nobody undercuts that agreed-upon selling price, even if they've got a Lantern Archon Lesser Planar Ally pumping them out as fast as they can churn out the dull gray Ioun Stones. :)
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2 cents-I would call it magic item with a spell on it. Thus treating it the same as if you cast continual flame on your sword or armor. As it is a burnt out stone, i say cant just make them. Now as to cost- i would adjust it to buying the stone and than hiring -or do it your self- caster to put spell on it. price in book is wrong.
course since wizard spell is inferior to cleric spell the wizards could be making no profit, just to undermind the clerics. This being said, i would pay the higher cost for cleric version. Now this way works great for home game-PFS, not so.
BTW-love how you broke it down so even i could follow your reasoning.
It also doesn't cause that nasty strobing effect when the light source circles your head, which would be a real drawback with Ioun torches.
That is why I have always converted mine to halos.
Basically they hover over your head rather than orbiting. :)
2 cents-I would call it magic item with a spell on it. Thus treating it the same as if you cast continual flame on your sword or armor. As it is a burnt out stone, i say cant just make them. Now as to cost- i would adjust it to buying the stone and than hiring -or do it your self- caster to put spell on it. price in book is wrong.
course since wizard spell is inferior to cleric spell the wizards could be making no profit, just to undermind the clerics. This being said, i would pay the higher cost for cleric version. Now this way works great for home game-PFS, not so.
BTW-love how you broke it down so even i could follow your reasoning.
I really do appreciate that someone could follow my logic. Sometimes I really wonder about that (at work especially sometimes).
I follow your logic on cost of goods. The original designer decided the price was too high and lowered it a little. If you feel it is too low, go ahead and bring it back up for your game.
As for why it is listed as a magic item, that's easy. Forget the mechanics. It's a glowing rock. That's a magic item. There isn't a wizard hanging out at the shop casting spells for people.
I follow your logic on cost of goods. The original designer decided the price was too high and lowered it a little. If you feel it is too low, go ahead and bring it back up for your game.
As for why it is listed as a magic item, that's easy. Forget the mechanics. It's a glowing rock. That's a magic item. There isn't a wizard hanging out at the shop casting spells for people.
I agree, it's a magic item because it's a glowing, flying rock. But for the purposes of dispelling magic, cost, and other rules-based complications with magic items, the mechanics must be consistent and known. I'm sorry but I can't ignore the ioun torch's cost, when this should make the Everburning torch cost a similar amount (or less). Following that logic, the everburning torch costs 50gp. the cost of the ruby dust to create the blasted thing.
There's why I have an issue. It's not consistent with what needs to happen mechanics+cost-wise, and it breaks down what happens with even minor magical items.