Factions of Sigil


Gamer Life General Discussion


I've decided to use Sigil for the first time in more than five years (yay!), and it's gotten me thinking about the factions.

See, I always felt that a couple of them are rather redundant. For example, Mercykillers just seem like sadistic hardheads; do they really deserve their own faction? On the other hand, there are a couple philosophies that seem like they'd make for great faction politics. Like communists. Maybe they'd be too much of a nod toward the real world, but they're a perfect counterpoint for the Fated.

I know there's no rhyme or reason to faction philosophies, and that I can wield my DM hammer however I want, but I'm curious. Does anyone else see any faction as redundant? Or have you added a faction to your own Sigil?


I'm about to in a few weeks/months; I was going to use the "faction war" motif to scrub some, and add some new ones.
Dragon Magazine had an old wiped out faction called the "Hivers" or something that sounded like communists.
The Mercykillers were split into two factions, I believe....the "Sons of Mercy" and the "sodkillers."


My brainstorms....

Howard the Duck #1 had him fighting a wizard named "Pro Rata the Cosmic Accountant;" I think a weird faction out to compile one authoritative cosmic balance sheet would be interesting.

My next thought was a group based on the existentialist philosophy of Albert Camus' Myth of Sisyphus; in search of the ultimate absurd hero....

finally, I want a group or groups of Middle Ages wicked feuding subfactions, based on the old Italian Merchant Prince type families (Medici's.....Borgia's....what have you) that are pretty much all tiefling descendants of Graz'zt. I think a chaotic neutral/evil faction based on descent from a demon prince would be allowed to be at war with itsself, if not actually expected to be.

So, as you can see,....I have no problem with sucking off of "real world" sources.


This is a family forum, so I think you mean "ripping off." :)

Contributor

Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Dragon Magazine had an old wiped out faction called the "Hivers" or something that sounded like communists.

As I recall that was the Communalists. When they declared that Sigil itself belonged to "everyone" and demanded the Lady of Pain relinquish power over it or something to that effect, she mazed them. All of them. :)

Also, worth noting that Colin, one of the original Planescape design team members, hangs out here on the Paizo boards and posts from time to time (being a freelancer for Paizo on a number of projects). If you're lucky, he might chime in.


That would be awesome.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:

I'm about to in a few weeks/months; I was going to use the "faction war" motif to scrub some, and add some new ones.

Dragon Magazine had an old wiped out faction called the "Hivers" or something that sounded like communists.
The Mercykillers were split into two factions, I believe....the "Sons of Mercy" and the "sodkillers."

I'm pretty sure the Mercykillers split is more or less canon.

At least the Wizards' sanctioned Planescape project at Planewalker has the Sons of Mercy and the Sodkillers as the new factions (I think maybe they were in the Planar Handbook too, but I don't remember).

Planewalker has a pretty good writeup of the factions (for a 3.5 based system) here:

http://www.planewalker.com/pscs-chapter-3

As a starting point before making your own, of course.

I always had a vague sense that the factions always represented various interpretations of different alignments or sets of beliefs associated with a particular plane, but I don't remember how the heck I got that impression (and it doesn't exactly work, the more I think of it).


I always liked the old 2e style of factions. The Mercykillers are kind of problematic (a cross between jailers and bountyhunters...never figured they needed to be their own faction. I would say they probably should have been merged with the Harmonium.)

I always found the Dustmen to be a great villanous foil (and they are still extant after the big faction breakup-someone has to clean up the bodies after all)

The Xaositects are great as anarchic ally/antagonists (They also managed to survive in the 3e- they really couldn't get rid of them, since they don't really have an organization to destroy). The Hive (their 'home base') is a good jumping off point for all sorts of shenanigans.

There were a few 'minor' factions detailed out. The 'Illuminated' was basically a gang trying to horn in on the Cage. They were run by a recurring villian, Green Marvent. There were splinter groups within the factions as well, that hold differing takes on the faction's core beliefs.

Wikipedia has a pretty good concise look at the whole faction thing:

>Wikilink<


Tequila Sunrise wrote:

I've decided to use Sigil for the first time in more than five years (yay!), and it's gotten me thinking about the factions.

See, I always felt that a couple of them are rather redundant. For example, Mercykillers just seem like sadistic hardheads; do they really deserve their own faction? On the other hand, there are a couple philosophies that seem like they'd make for great faction politics. Like communists. Maybe they'd be too much of a nod toward the real world, but they're a perfect counterpoint for the Fated.

I know there's no rhyme or reason to faction philosophies, and that I can wield my DM hammer however I want, but I'm curious. Does anyone else see any faction as redundant? Or have you added a faction to your own Sigil?

Yes some faction seem a bit redundant, but I believe that they all have their place in the grand scheme of things. It fits well with the rule of three to have different factions for making the law, enforcing the law and following through with lawbrakers. If the rules of three really is a driving force in the multiverse, it may very well maintain these factions "artificially" for a while despise their similitude.

Also, the factions of Sigil as described in the Planescape supplements are like a picture of an infinitely short time-frame in Sigil's history. It is not because a certain philosophy is not represented at this time that it hasn't been appropriately represented in the past, or will be in the future. The faction war is a good opportunity for DMs to customize their Planescape setting. The more supplements you accept as "cannon" in your game, the more it becomes obvious that something is bound to happen soon. It would take a lot of "investment" just to maintain the status quo, but the Lady is prominent among the driving forces in and around Sigil that has the power to do so. All that to say that "DM Hammer" is pretty much legit in that regard concerning the Planescape setting.

'findel


Todd Stewart wrote:
Also, worth noting that Colin, one of the original Planescape design team members, hangs out here on the Paizo boards and posts from time to time (being a freelancer for Paizo on a number of projects). If you're lucky, he might chime in.

Can we summon him by saying his name three times in a row or something, or is there some kind of planar BBCode for that?

'findel

Contributor

Laurefindel wrote:
Todd Stewart wrote:
Also, worth noting that Colin, one of the original Planescape design team members, hangs out here on the Paizo boards and posts from time to time (being a freelancer for Paizo on a number of projects). If you're lucky, he might chime in.

Can we summon him by saying his name three times in a row or something, or is there some kind of planar BBCode for that?

'findel

Yes, but that was only twice, so I'm afraid you're out of luck.

Oh, what the hell, I'm here now.

As noted above, the world presented in the Planescape campaign was a snapshot of a few brief moments in time with a background of uncounted millenia. Factions rise, factions fall, sects gain influence and then fade away. In other words, fads in thinking come and go, and while this happens over a longer time period in Sigil because the philosophies are reinforced by beliefs from countless Prime Material worlds and buttressed by immigrants, ideas change there too. Some of the more chaotic and independent factions rush to embrace the new ideas; those of a more lawful and orderly bent either try to slow the influx or stop it altogether.

Each of the factions was based on real-world philosophies and given a hard tweak to make them palatable for the game. You can tweak your own as well, though I'd recommend NOT using the ones based off a specific individual's deeds--that's a religion, not a philosophy, though you can certainly use the *teachings* of those individuals as a basis for a new faction rising up.

You might also find The Mimir helpful: http://mimir.net/sects/sects.shtml


Laurefindel wrote:
Also, the factions of Sigil as described in the Planescape supplements are like a picture of an infinitely short time-frame in Sigil's history.

Excellent point. I think I'll make an adventure out of bringing the Mercykillers down. It shall be deliciously bloody.

Colin McComb wrote:
Each of the factions was based on real-world philosophies and given a hard tweak to make them palatable for the game. You can tweak your own as well, though I'd recommend NOT using the ones based off a specific individual's deeds--that's a religion, not a philosophy...

Unless we're talking about Buddhism, in which case we can engage in endless semantic debate. But I'd rather not, so I'll stick with definitively philosophical factions. :)

Btw, what area of PS did you write for?


I rember there being sects(which were I think described as minor factions) in the various MM of planescape back in 2nd ed. Somethem might be a springboard to creat a new fraction.

Contributor

Tequila Sunrise wrote:


Unless we're talking about Buddhism, in which case we can engage in endless semantic debate. But I'd rather not, so I'll stick with definitively philosophical factions. :)

Well, there are already factions that one could consider at least partially Buddhist in nature--the Godsmen and the Dustmen in particular. The Harmonium could be considered largely Confucian, though any school with a hard-headed adherence to rules and tradition could apply. And while Lao Tzu could be thought of the father of Taoism, that belief system seems more philosophical to me (though perhaps this has something to do with the fact that I studied it as a philosophy rather than a religion).

Quote:
Btw, what area of PS did you write for?

Let's see... Well of Worlds, some add'l design in the original Planescape Boxed Set (a couple of monsters, if I recall correctly, plus general brainstorming with Zeb), Planes of Law, Planes of Conflict, Hellbound, Faces of Evil, the Great Modron March, On Hallowed Ground, and general idea-stuff with the others.

Contributor

John Kretzer wrote:
I rember there being sects(which were I think described as minor factions) in the various MM of planescape back in 2nd ed. Somethem might be a springboard to creat a new fraction.

Right. The major difference is that factions are Sigil-based and generally have a broader applicability, and sects are non-Sigil-based and frequently echoed the philosophy of the plane on which they quartered. Some of them sought to destroy factions within the Cage so as to supplant them, and others didn't care about Sigil except insofar as they could recruit believers from there.

Silver Crusade

Heh, the Great Modron March was a fantastic adventure (or rather series of adventures).

I miss the little boxes on legs. Whatever happened to them?


Colin McComb wrote:
Quote:
Btw, what area of PS did you write for?
Let's see... Well of Worlds, some add'l design in the original Planescape Boxed Set (a couple of monsters, if I recall correctly, plus general brainstorming with Zeb), Planes of Law, Planes of Conflict, Hellbound, Faces of Evil, the Great Modron March, On Hallowed Ground, and general idea-stuff with the others.

Since we've got you here (thanks for chiming in BTW), was the faction war supposed to be an event mostly meant to re-shuffle the factions as they were, or to diminish their influence in the game as a whole?

Even though Sigil is not Planescape, booting the factions' headquarters out of the City of Doors rings a particular message about the philosophy of the game that went from "factions are at the center of it all" to "factions are no longer welcome". Was that indented?

'findel


Colin McComb wrote:
Quote:
Btw, what area of PS did you write for?
Let's see... Well of Worlds, some add'l design in the original Planescape Boxed Set (a couple of monsters, if I recall correctly, plus general brainstorming with Zeb), Planes of Law, Planes of Conflict, Hellbound, Faces of Evil, the Great Modron March, On Hallowed Ground, and general idea-stuff with the others.

Not to threadjack, but oh man, you worked on Planes of Law, Planes of Conflict, and On Hallowed Ground? Awesome. Thanks so much for your contributions. I just got into Planescape recently and I love the supplements so much. I've used those three (and Planes of Chaos) a lot, particularly.

As for faction redundancy, I'm with Laurefindel on the rule of three thing. I can see some arguments for merging some of the lawful factions but I've always felt they were distinct enough to warrant the separation. Not to mention there's practical concerns (and possible benefits) in separating out the police from the jailers/executors... and the potential fun of a Mercykiller PC running afoul of the Harmonium when he steps on their toes in his pursuit of justice within Sigil. Mercykillers don't have to be sadistic - even pre-Faction War, there's hints of the Sons of Mercy philosophy shining through with Arwyl Swan's Son in Factol's Manifesto. I like the idea of the faction being more-or-less in three subsets, sort of like the Doomguard, even pre-Faction War. LG/LN paladins and the like in the style of the Sons of Mercy, staunchly LN characters that follow the "purest" interpretation of the Mercykiller philosophy, leaving all morality out of justice and law, and LN/LE bounty hunters and mercenaries that seem to take a little too much pleasure in their work.

That said, it's totally valid to tweak or even scrap factions completely for you setting. Because I've only been running PS for under a year now, I've still got lots of material to work with within the original 15, I can understand how if you've been using the setting longer, they could get a big deal. A revival of the Expansionists or Communalists could be interesting. Maybe the Incantifiers (magic is power) steal a few members from the Fraternity of Order and become a more powerful group. Maybe you could flesh out the philosophy of the Primals, whatever that is, and they've finally left their Inner Planar homes... but for what purpose? The Bleakers split in a similar fashion to the Mercykillers, their more charitable and more nihilistic groups finally ending the association with each other. I also remember a brief mention of a Dustmen subgroup called the "Hopeful" or something to that tune that believed that True Death would take them back to True Life where everything was happy all the time, or something along those lines.

I remember post-Faction War there was also a group called the Mind's Eye that was some sort of merging of the Godsmen and the Signers, though it never grabbed my interest. That's in Planewalker's information as well.


John Kretzer wrote:
I rember there being sects(which were I think described as minor factions) in the various MM of planescape back in 2nd ed. Somethem might be a springboard to creat a new fraction.
Colin McComb wrote:
Let's see... Well of Worlds, some add'l design in the original Planescape Boxed Set (a couple of monsters, if I recall correctly, plus general brainstorming with Zeb), Planes of Law, Planes of Conflict, Hellbound, Faces of Evil, the Great Modron March, On Hallowed Ground, and general idea-stuff with the others.

Cool, part of my next adventure will feature a tweaked form of The Mazes adventure. For example, I'm replacing Timlin with a warforged incantifer. I think I'll have the incantifers be a sect of the Fraternity of Order that was formed by this character, and then mostly dissolved after she was mazed. But of course those who remain loyal need the PCs to get her out!

(Great minds think alike, eh Tim4488?)

Contributor

Apologies, but this is going to be a TL;DR for many people.

FallofCamelot wrote:

Heh, the Great Modron March was a fantastic adventure (or rather series of adventures).

I miss the little boxes on legs. Whatever happened to them?

Apparently, they were defeated by bugs. I was a little dumbfounded as well.

Laurefindel wrote:


Since we've got you here (thanks for chiming in BTW), was the faction war supposed to be an event mostly meant to re-shuffle the factions as they were, or to diminish their influence in the game as a whole?

Even though Sigil is not Planescape, booting the factions' headquarters out of the City of Doors rings a particular message about the philosophy of the game that went from "factions are at the center of it all" to "factions are no longer welcome". Was that indented?
'findel

That was at least a part of the thinking. There were some complaints that the focus of the game was too faction-heavy, and people felt constrained in all they did and said in the city. Further, there was some concern that the factions were isolating audience members and creating an artificial barrier to entry to certain of the books and the setting itself--people didn't want to HAVE to be forced to play a faction, and apparently a lot of people felt like the setting was demanding they pick one (and perhaps it was).

Faction War wasn't supposed to be the final word in the setting; management's decision came as a bit of a surprise, and there were future plans for the setting. But don't take my word for it!

Quote:

What was the real purpose behind the release of Faction War? Was this a creator decision based on the feeling that the current Faction system was too complicated, a way to "go out with a bang" since the setting support was coming to an end, or something else entirely?

Ray: Ah, the question that won't go away. Lemme tell ya: Monte and I wrote Faction War after the whole PLANESCAPE group came up with the basic idea for the adventure. The setting was so heavily faction oriented that we wanted to see what would happen when that support system was taken away. How would the residents of Sigil react? What would the former faction members do? How would this impact their beliefs and philosophies? The creative possibilities were compelling, and the war was a plot point that had been brewing in the background of just about every product since the launch of the setting. And, as I said at the time, we always planned to restore the factions to power after seeing how they reacted to being knocked flat for a while. It just so happened that PLANESCAPE itself got knocked flat right after the release of Faction War, so we never got the chance. A total coincidence. I can see the lure of all the conspiracy theories that have developed, but they're just not true.

Monte: Faction War was never meant to be the final product. It's kind of a real kick in the teeth that it ended up that way. I look on it as though the setting ended on a cliffhanger, I guess.

Tim4488 wrote:


Not to threadjack, but oh man, you worked on Planes of Law, Planes of Conflict, and On Hallowed Ground? Awesome. Thanks so much for your contributions. I just got into Planescape recently and I love the supplements so much. I've used those three (and Planes of Chaos) a lot, particularly.

My pleasure! No, seriously. I'm thrilled that people are still finding it enjoyable.

Quote:
That said, it's totally valid to tweak or even scrap factions completely for you setting. Because I've only been running PS for under a year now, I've still got lots of material to work with within the original 15, I can understand how if you've been using the setting...

Absolutely. I don't want to tell anyone that there's a right way or wrong way to play the game. I'm not here as the final arbiter. Consider me a resource instead. Tweak your campaigns how you want to play them - especially since there's little chance that WotC is going to add anything to the canon.

Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Cool, part of my next adventure will feature a tweaked form of The Mazes adventure. For example, I'm replacing Timlin with a warforged incantifer. I think I'll have the incantifers be a sect of the Fraternity of Order that was formed by this character, and then mostly dissolved after she was mazed. But of course those who remain loyal need the PCs to get her out!

Guvners never truly change their loyalties. You can always refer them back to their origin and show them that they should have taken another path (using charts, if necessary), and you'll have the old gang back together in no time!

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