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I run a pathfinder game where I use the 3rd edition Forgotten Realms in the year 1400 DR, where Mystra was saved and the Spellplague was averted.
I use alot of influence from Golarion, for example I include Abadar as the Son of Helm and Waukeen, who replaces both of their churches.
Now I want to place Cheliax in the area where old Chessenta used to be (in other words, it was always there, and Chessenta never was). Do any of you that are knowledgeable of both realms have any ideas as too the impact this could have? As a point it would be placed on the Sea of Fallen Stars, which is also shared with Cormyr and Marsember.
I am just looking for ideas. I am not sure if I want to include it because a nation like Cheliax could really upset a power balance.
Any of you that would take the time for thoughts, advice, ideas, or suggestions would be appreciated!
Many thanks!
Diabolical Thrune Cheliax? Or old days of yore Imperial Cheliax...
I run a pathfinder game where I use the 3rd edition Forgotten Realms in the year 1400 DR, where Mystra was saved and the Spellplague was averted.
I use alot of influence from Golarion, for example I include Abadar as the Son of Helm and Waukeen, who replaces both of their churches.Now I want to place Cheliax in the area where old Chessenta used to be (in other words, it was always there, and Chessenta never was). Do any of you that are knowledgeable of both realms have any ideas as too the impact this could have? As a point it would be placed on the Sea of Fallen Stars, which is also shared with Cormyr and Marsember.
I am just looking for ideas. I am not sure if I want to include it because a nation like Cheliax could really upset a power balance.
Any of you that would take the time for thoughts, advice, ideas, or suggestions would be appreciated!
Many thanks!
Depends on how nitpicky you're willing to be. Chessantan is a fairly widely spoken language, so any changes in the behavior in it (I'm not all that familar with either) could have significant ramifications on linguistics.
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Chessenta is a very sensible choice, given the region, and you could fluff up the Chessentan 'faux Greek' atmosphere with a Chelish 'faux Italian' one easily enough.
[tangent]
My first choice for Cheliax-in-the-Realms would be to replace Sembia, 'though. Putting it next to Cormyr and the Dales would more strongly mirror the relationship between Cheliax and neighboring Andoran. If that was the case, Sembia's historical relationship with mercantile matters could be maintained, and an Archdevil of Greed / materialism (Mammon?) could be a favored cousin of Asmodeus.
Sembia, I've heard described, as the nation that was deliberately left kinda/sorta vague, as compared to the Dales or Cormyr, leaving GMs a little more wiggle-room to make sweeping changes to it.
That set up also would mirror the trend that both Golarion and the Realms share, of putting the more Euro nations above the map-centralized 'inner sea,' and the Egyptian / non-Euro nations (Persian in Golarion, Greek and Babylonian in the Realms) below that inner sea.
[/end tangent]
Still, using Chessenta, you'd likely want to make some sort of changes to Mulhorand and Unther to suit their devil-worshipping neighbor. I could definitely see Mulhorand, with it's 'god-kings,' taking a very dim view of this neighbor, while Unther, if it's still in a state of disarray, might be in the process of being destabilized and / or taken over by Chelish partisans and provocateurs.
One question to ask would be: how does Tchazzar fit into the picture? He's a fiendish red Dragon Ascendant and Chosen of Tiamat, en route to godhood and sitting firmly on the throne of Cimbar, one of the Chessentan city-states.
Chessenta is a very sensible choice, given the region, and you could fluff up the Chessentan 'faux Greek' atmosphere with a Chelish 'faux Italian' one easily enough.
[tangent]
My first choice for Cheliax-in-the-Realms would be to replace Sembia, 'though. Putting it next to Cormyr and the Dales would more strongly mirror the relationship between Cheliax and neighboring Andoran. If that was the case, Sembia's historical relationship with mercantile matters could be maintained, and an Archdevil of Greed / materialism (Mammon?) could be a favored cousin of Asmodeus.Sembia, I've heard described, as the nation that was deliberately left kinda/sorta vague, as compared to the Dales or Cormyr, leaving GMs a little more wiggle-room to make sweeping changes to it.
That set up also would mirror the trend that both Golarion and the Realms share, of putting the more Euro nations above the map-centralized 'inner sea,' and the Egyptian / non-Euro nations (Persian in Golarion, Greek and Babylonian in the Realms) below that inner sea.
[/end tangent]Still, using Chessenta, you'd likely want to make some sort of changes to Mulhorand and Unther to suit their devil-worshipping neighbor. I could definitely see Mulhorand, with it's 'god-kings,' taking a very dim view of this neighbor, while Unther, if it's still in a state of disarray, might be in the process of being destabilized and / or taken over by Chelish partisans and provocateurs.
Considering I really like Unther and Mulhorand, I might actually place Cheliax in Sembia. I have been running the realms for a long time, and I only ever used Sembia for two adventures. All of which could have just as easily happened within Cheliax as Sembia.
I would be using the Thrune Diabolical Cheliax at this point.
Hmmm lots to think about!
Will you introduce Asmodeus as LE god or will keep him lord of devils only? If the former he will be certainly concurent to Bane portfolio.
Will you introduce Asmodeus as LE god or will keep him lord of devils only? If the former he will be certainly concurent to Bane portfolio.
I have been using Asmodeus as a cult god since the AD&D Monster Manual. I did use some of the Wizards story for he death of Mystra as the starting point for averting the spell plague. Mystra was saved but dwoemerheart (Including Azuth) were destroyed. Asmodeus used Azuth's divine essence to ascend fully.
He is definitely a threat to Bane because he has all of Hell behind him. Bane however has the worshippers. I also brought Bane's divine rank up as he absorbed some of Cyric's energy. Bane was instrumental in saving Mystra (Only because he did not want his enemy Cyric to become even more powerful). Cyric is dead now, so I envision Asmodeus being a Rival to Bane, with a bit more competence than Cyric.
Thank you for that, as all of these points are things I need to mull over.
He is definitely a threat to Bane because he has all of Hell behind him. Bane however has the worshippers. I also brought Bane's divine rank up as he absorbed some of Cyric's energy. Bane was instrumental in saving Mystra (Only because he did not want his enemy Cyric to become even more powerful). Cyric is dead now, so I envision Asmodeus being a Rival to Bane, with a bit more competence than Cyric.
From pure curiosity: what happened with Cyric's portfoolio (mainly chaos, deception and strife), if you keep Toril's tendency to keep them and pass them to other/new deities instead of leaving power vacuum? Did strife returned to Bane or someone took all the package or was it divided or remains unassigned?
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Actually since the release of Forgotten Realms third edition Strife returned to Bane. In my story Mask was actually vital in betraying Cyric and Shar's plans (working off of the canon from the third Erevis Cale book, Shar absorbed him (as per the book), but Mask's little secret was he was hiding as her shadow (my addition).
Deception and Intrigue went back to mask, Lies went to a ressurected Leira.
Chaos was one of cyrics domains not an actual portfolio, at least according to the Faiths and Pantheons book.
Many thanks for your interest!
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Deception and Intrigue went back to mask, Lies went to a ressurected Leira.Oh, you're my hero. Lleira was always one of my favorites.
In my head, Sivanah is her Golarion homage.
Golarion is great for that! They pay homage to many of the greats before them. Zon Kuthon is the perfect example.
It is just an all around fantastic place. I am attached to my storytelling in the realms, but I run a pure golarion as well for new players.
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Some interesting thoughts came up as I was reading the thread:
Placing Cheliax in (place of) Sembia would turn that once mercantile state into an imperialist state; one with a powerful army, reinforced by devils and a newly empowerd church of Asmodeus, a state with grand territorial designs and trade ambitions. Sembia/Cheliax neighbors may be very well have multiple treaties in effect for mutual protection against such an imposing a nation.
Cromyr (or elements within the government) may well have made very, very quiet overtures to the Zhentarim or at least to Darkhold against infernal Cheliax, after all, "the enemy of my enemy ..." holds true, especially when said enemy counts Pit Fiends among their 'assets'.
To add to this mess, Westcrown, Cheliax's former capital, may very well wish to secede from the rest of the nation, to become self autonomus, or worse yet, join with Cromyr's crown.
The Sembia of the Forgotten Realms has gone to war with the Dales and the Fair Folk (Elves) in times past - something either Imperial or diabolical Cheliax may have done. No love from that border as well.
I think the Sembia/Cheliax the Realms that maintained its Sembian mercantile roots, would have another key rival, the Red Wizards of Thay.
Thay's Red Wizards, (for the most part and at least for the time being,) have given up their overt plans of military conquest and have now gone the lucrative route of enriching themselves by plying the trade routes with magical and faux magical items. Thay may very well think that their dominance in this field could be challenged by another nation that now has the church of Asmodeus at its beck and call. ("How much for that Wand of Fireballs? Why that's absurd! It does not even have the stamp of the prince of darkness! I shall take my coin elsewhere!")
Lastly, I was thinking of how to incorporate Hellknights.
Perhaps Cheliax loans out whole Orders (companies) of Hellknights to other nations and leaders for sizeable sums of money, in the way the Swiss Guard had its origins in our world. Other nations and leaders could use the Hellknights as a show of force to keep the local populance under heel and as well as a deterrent to keep would be invaders at bay; also to show off prestidge and 'one up' rival nobles ("Why you simply must try the Order of the Rack, its all the rage Egorian").
And of course Cheliax would gain the benefit of having key military units that much closer to the thrones 'potential' vassal states.
Some interesting thoughts came up as I was reading the thread:
Placing Cheliax in (place of) Sembia would turn that once mercantile state into an imperialist state; one with a powerful army, reinforced by devils and a newly empowerd church of Asmodeus, a state with grand territorial designs and trade ambitions. Sembia/Cheliax neighbors may be very well have multiple treaties in effect for mutual protection against such an imposing a nation.
Cromyr (or elements within the government) may well have made very, very quiet overtures to the Zhentarim or at least to Darkhold against infernal Cheliax, after all, "the enemy of my enemy ..." holds true, especially when said enemy counts Pit Fiends among their 'assets'.
To add to this mess, Westcrown, Cheliax's former capital, may very well wish to secede from the rest of the nation, to become self autonomus, or worse yet, join with Cromyr's crown.
The Sembia of the Forgotten Realms has gone to war with the Dales and the Fair Folk (Elves) in times past - something either Imperial or diabolical Cheliax may have done. No love from that border as well.
I think the Sembia/Cheliax the Realms that maintained its Sembian mercantile roots, would have another key rival, the Red Wizards of Thay.
Thay's Red Wizards, (for the most part and at least for the time being,) have given up their overt plans of military conquest and have now gone the lucrative route of enriching themselves by plying the trade routes with magical and faux magical items. Thay may very well think that their dominance in this field could be challenged by another nation that now has the church of Asmodeus at its beck and call. ("How much for that Wand of Fireballs? Why that's absurd! It does not even have the stamp of the prince of darkness! I shall take my coin elsewhere!")
Lastly, I was thinking of how to incorporate Hellknights.
Perhaps Cheliax loans out whole Orders (companies) of Hellknights to other nations and leaders for sizeable sums of money, in the way the...
Slainte Baron!
I was thinking most of this myself. I plan to use the History of Cheliax as written in the last Inner City Hardbound. I already have replaced Calaunt with Korvosa (well I kept the name Calaunt.)
It is 1400 DR so Azoun V is not the warrior king that his father was, and is much more diplomatic. The Dalelands have very powerful adventurers of Epic scale protecting them, but alot of the other nations would definitely have made treaties or strong bonds to Cormyr.
Cheliax is Just TOO COOL of a concept to leave behind. My biggest snafu is Zhentarim powerbase. Even more than thay, I think Cheliax would threaten the Zhents more. Being lead by Fzoul, They would not ally with CHeliax because of Bane's influence (He is still the big kid on the block), though I have been tempted to have Cheliax absorb the new Zhentarim.
I am working over a couple things:
1) having it be that Cheliax was always present
a) History as written pathfinder
b) always diabolic
or 2) the nation that will become the great nation of Cheliax has just formed in the last 25 years.
I have pretty much decided to place it where Sembia is over Chessentia.
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If Bane died (for awhile), that would be a perfect time for Cheliax to have gone Asmodean, as the rise of Asmodeus could have happened during the time when Bane / Cyric / Xvim were squabbling over strife and tyranny.
The Time of Troubles or Wild Magic or Horde invasion or Shade city whatever could also serve as a useful impetus for the rise of the 'Thrice-Damned House of Thrune' in what-was-Sembia, as highly organized and divinely backed nobles and priests (with devil shock troopers in the van) help to make the land secure and safe from the upheaval happening all around them, and leading to at least tepid support for their power-grab.
By offering safety and the secure flow of commerce in a time when all of the news coming from neighboring lands is about upheavels and assassinations and revolutions and war between various Dales, etc. (all suitably 'sexed up' by Chelish propoganda, to make it sound *awful* everywhere but in safe, secure Cheliax), they can make the perpetually frightened people complicit in and even appreciative of their own loss of rights and freedom, welcoming security from the 'savages' and 'madness' everywhere else.
By making sure that the average resident of their country is kept in a slow-burn state of unrelenting anxiety by the (state controlled and highly exagerrated) news of the rest of the world 'going to hell' (figuratively) they can ensure that the residents enthusiastically sell their souls for safety from the scary outside world and 'go to hell' (literally).
If Bane died (for awhile), that would be a perfect time for Cheliax to have gone Asmodean, as the rise of Asmodeus could have happened during the time when Bane / Cyric / Xvim were squabbling over strife and tyranny.
The Time of Troubles or Wild Magic or Horde invasion or Shade city whatever could also serve as a useful impetus for the rise of the 'Thrice-Damned House of Thrune' in what-was-Sembia, as highly organized and divinely backed nobles and priests (with devil shock troopers in the van) help to make the land secure and safe from the upheaval happening all around them, and leading to at least tepid support for their power-grab.
By offering safety and the secure flow of commerce in a time when all of the news coming from neighboring lands is about upheavels and assassinations and revolutions and war between various Dales, etc. (all suitably 'sexed up' by Chelish propoganda, to make it sound *awful* everywhere but in safe, secure Cheliax), they can make the perpetually frightened people complicit in and even appreciative of their own loss of rights and freedom, welcoming security from the 'savages' and 'madness' everywhere else.
By making sure that the average resident of their country is kept in a slow-burn state of unrelenting anxiety by the (state controlled and highly exagerrated) news of the rest of the world 'going to hell' (figuratively) they can ensure that the residents enthusiastically sell their souls for safety from the scary outside world and 'go to hell' (literally).
That is actually a fantastic idea!
I just envisioned a power struggle in the Moonsea region between Zhentarim-backed Banites, local Banites and Cheliaxan-backed Asmodeans... With a sprinkle of others along (maybe some hardcore-Cyricists, too chaotic to be absorbed back by other cults). However I think about placing Cheliax somewhere else than Sembia - maybe more to the East, near Implitur (and closer to Narfel, dun-dun-dun) or somehwere on the southern shore of Sea Of Fallen Stars (eastern Dragon Coast, Vilhon Reach - around Chondath).
I think that replacing Sembia with Cheliax will too soon lead to military conflict with Cormyr.
Or... did the Shades returned to Faerun in your campaign? If not maybe make new Netheril Cheliaxian devil worshippers?
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[tangent]
My first choice for Cheliax-in-the-Realms would be to replace Sembia, 'though. Putting it next to Cormyr and the Dales would more strongly mirror the relationship between Cheliax and neighboring Andoran. If that was the case, Sembia's historical relationship with mercantile matters could be maintained, and an Archdevil of Greed / materialism (Mammon?) could be a favored cousin of Asmodeus.Sembia, I've heard described, as the nation that was deliberately left kinda/sorta vague, as compared to the Dales or Cormyr, leaving GMs a little more wiggle-room to make sweeping changes to it.
That set up also would mirror the trend that both Golarion and the Realms share, of putting the more Euro nations above the map-centralized 'inner sea,' and the Egyptian / non-Euro nations (Persian in Golarion, Greek and Babylonian in the Realms) below that inner sea.
[/end tangent]
I agree. Sembia is a much better fit and closer to the central part of the Realms. I like your ideas on the use of the other gods. In essence, you could go forward with ALL the Golorian gods, making them the next generation of deities.
I personaly like Cheliax replacing Chessenta...but that is because I did a lot of cool things with Sembia...including currently playing in a game to keep it out of the Shade's hand...so I am little emotional attached(No Not Sembia)...but it is your game and since Sembia was wisely ignore till they buggered it up...it is probably the best and easiest place to do a swap. Though another option would be Narfell(I believe have to double check my FR lore) given that countries history with dealing with Devils...a resurgence could happen.
Also don't worry about this increasing a rivalary with the Zhentarim...it is already fiece according to cannon. Remember Zhentarim want to dominate the world economy as a way to dominate their world...so there already was conflict there.
Alot of good ideas on this thread all around...
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I like your ideas on the use of the other gods. In essence, you could go forward with ALL the Golorian gods, making them the next generation of deities.
That's a possibility, but quite a lot of the Realms flavor is bound up in the dieties of that setting, IMO.
I had originally thought of just flat out replacing Bane (or post ToT dead-Bane) with Asmodeus, but I think that there's room for both.
Plus, as an archdevil-dun-hit-the-big-time, technically Asmodeus already exists in the Realms, just had no Divine Rank or Clerics, until recent events made an opening for him to grab some power and move on up to that dee-lux apartment in the sky-high-high.
Replacing Selune with Desna, Torm with Iomedae, Mystra with Nethys, Chauntea/Silvanus with Gozreh, etc. seems to me like it would take away too much of the Realms unique flavor.
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Slainte Baron!
Off topic - Funny coincidence, here in New York, I know some gamers who use Sláinte as a post game meet up. I'm not the biggest fan of pubs myself, lack of 'talent' walking around.
Back on topic, I have the same line of thinking as Set, the Time of Troubles would be the ideal time for Asmodeus to ascend (descend) to claim godhood.
Previous to this Sembia/Cheliax could have had several powerful and influential cults to the dark prince, like real world Hellfire clubs who's leadership practiced (or at least paid lip service to) worship of Asmodeus. As Asmodeus became a god in FR, his once hidden sects had no reason to keep their true allegiance secret anymore and took over open leadership of the nation.
I think this would work best if Sembia/Cheliax 'became' infernal in the last few decades. An older devil worshiping nation surely would have come to blows with the other nations by now. The damage and upheaval of the Time of Troubles left enough chaos in its wake that many rulers and governments had to contend with their own nations' problems; when the dust settled, the Thrice Damned House had solidified it hold of Sembia/Cheliax.
Also it would be interesting to play an 'all evil' cloak and dagger campaign given this situation.
Agents of Sembia/Cheliax, Zhents, Red Wizards, Priests and thieves of Mask, Cult of the Dragon, and mad fanatics of Cyric, all vying for control of the underground economy/underworld/information brokering within the new nation.
It would also be great to develop the ambassadors that Sembia/Cheliax would send to other nations. Imagine the Lords of Waterdeep being forced to receive and then tolerate an erinyes devil with class levels that had full diplomatic immunity.
You guys are a major help with this that is for sure. I mulled it over and I agree with the person taht said above, the Zhents will not really be brought into any MORE conflict than they already are.
At my current time line Cyric is infact dead, and Mask is one of the new Greater Gods.
I brought Zon Kuthon into the realms as a demigod. He was basically a High Priest and Saint of Ilmater, who while being tortured turned to Loviatar.
I also brought in Abadar as the child of Helm and Waukeen. In the events leading up to the spell plague, Tyr wrongfully accused Helm of having an affair with Tymora. Basically Cyric manipulated information to have Tyr discover Waukeen and Helm's romance but twisted the information enough to make the evidence look like Tymora. Helm was killed by Tyr. Waukeen gave divine birth, and Abadar inherited their divine power. Quite frankly I think Abadar is a better fit for the realms even then Waukeen.
This made me think of sociopolitical campaign from priesthood of Abadar trying to convert, straighten and decorrupt Amn. Tough job.
Hmm, I'd imagine that if Cheliax were in FR they'd have kind of a similar role that demon-worshipping Narfell had in Faerun's past (though of course with more of a lawful/orderly influence). It would be interesting to to see, of course, how the two empires would've related to each other.
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I just discovered this thread. There are some fantastic ideas. I had thought about doing something similar a few months back but with some minor tweaks to ideas here.
Fast recap as I have no game material on me (at work)
Bane never died in my realms. I like many of the god ideas and may incorporate some of them.
What I thought of doing was 'redesigning' the south western moonsea area a little. Take Cheliax and flip it 180 so the coast is north, and remove Hillsfar; It always was part of Cheliax... move Myth Drannor a little west, mildly redesigning the Elven Court geographically, and have the nation of (bad pun) Sembliax encompass most of its current location but wrapping up the coast beyond Scardale to include the southern area of the Moonsea.
This plays into the idea that the fall of Myth Drannor opened the door for Asmodeus to take root in the realms and the time of troubles cemented his hold.
I have always 100% disregarded the whole Shade/Anauroch thing so west of the dales stays pretty much Grey campaign box to me.
I have other ideas too but I covered the major points.
Why not just raise Cheliax as a Remanent of the Narfell empire?
Maybe linking them as a new potency that rises over the years w/o the spellplague, they quickly conquer Vaasa and Damara. Maybe the rites of the Rotting Man went too bad, and a demonlord managed to escape.-
Why not just raise Cheliax as a Remanent of the Narfell empire?
I always had impression of current Nar as demon-worshipping barbarians (mostly of type worshipping demons due to fear with little real devotion, just to make the bad things go away after being given sacrifice and seek someone else to bother, until the next time) and it wouldn't match the flavor of Cheliax.
Other candidtes for Forgotten Realm Cheliax would be for me:
Tethyr: after end of dynasty some noble house makes a deal with devils to seize the throne.
Cormyr: The same general outline. Think of new generation of War Wizards trained in diabolical arts.
Well, tethyr could be a choice, but you´ll need to wipe a few epic chars keeping a eye on them, same goes with Cormyr. I just dont think that it would fit easily.
For me, the idea of a rising Nar/cheliax under a proper guidance and unchecked is far more plausible than the corruption of one of the greatest realms (or empire- if you take 4th edition in account) of the realms, as is Cormyr. Tethyr on the other hand, Its current ruler, is Elminster´s former apprentice, so get yourself a few demons and you´ll have Harpes, and at least 3 of the seven sisters meddling around the issue.- Oh, and dont forget that elminster helped to raise Cormyr too, so he will be sticking his pointy nose over there too.-
Yeah, replacing Sembia works better for me than replacing Chessenta. Sembia already is kind of a skeevy place and having Cheliax replace it will give poor Alusair all kinds of new problems, not to mention the Dalelands. But since Cheliax-Sembia actually would have strongly good-aligned countries as its neighbour, it would be kept in check, especially with Elminster keeping an eye or two on it.
Replacing Chessenta with Cheliax would present another situation entirely and would probably bode very badly for Aglarond. Aglarond already is pressed by its hostile neighbour to the east, i.e. Thay and having another major power bent on domination and evil would probably push the Simbûl over the edge into trying to toast one of the two dangers. She never was the most stable person to begin with.
OTOH, Mulhorand and Thay also present strong opposition from nearby evil states, so maybe the balance of power would be kept more or less the same.