So I want to make a trap.
Or rather, I want a trap put in my 14th level party's stronghold. None of US have wasted points on craft trap, but we have an engineer on staff... an 8th Level Expert with maximum ranks in Craft Trap and a +1 modifier.
With standing check of 12, we expect this guy to be pretty dang good at his job. We want to put a pit trap with a hidden trigger bypass in front of the prison door, so anyone trying to spring the baddies has a nasty surprise in store for them. After determining that the camoflauged rotating floor pit trap is an automatic reset, it's going to cost 4500gp (CR3, 3x1000gp = 3000gp, x1.5 for automatic reset) to create. And with only a DC 20, that's not unrealistic, so he sets to work.
DC20, natural 20 on the roll = 400sp worth of work in the first week, and we're on our way.. but... wait... that's 40 gold...
Is it seriously going to take 113 WEEKS to build? SERIOUSLY!? TWO YEARS and nine weeks for a -CR3- trap?! For an 8th level character?!
So I want to make a trap.
Or rather, I want a trap put in my 14th level party's stronghold. None of US have wasted points on craft trap, but we have an engineer on staff... an 8th Level Expert with maximum ranks in Craft Trap and a +1 modifier.
With standing check of 12, we expect this guy to be pretty dang good at his job. We want to put a pit trap with a hidden trigger bypass in front of the prison door, so anyone trying to spring the baddies has a nasty surprise in store for them. After determining that the camoflauged rotating floor pit trap is an automatic reset, it's going to cost 4500gp (CR3, 3x1000gp = 3000gp, x1.5 for automatic reset) to create. And with only a DC 20, that's not unrealistic, so he sets to work.
DC20, natural 20 on the roll = 400sp worth of work in the first week, and we're on our way.. but... wait... that's 40 gold...
Is it seriously going to take 113 WEEKS to build? SERIOUSLY!? TWO YEARS and nine weeks for a -CR3- trap?! For an 8th level character?!
1) Crafting rules are crazy.
2) Well actually you made 32 x 20 sp of progress (32=20+8+3+1).3) You need more experts / workers ;->
Job security was no fantasy in the middle ages........
This is why I house-ruled crafting results are in GP instead of SP for crafting by weeks and SP instead of CP for crafting by days. It speeds up the process by a factor of 10. In which case it would have taken your character 2 months. I also allow you to willingly increase the DC to craft it faster; so if you can reliable take 10 for a 22, then you could raise the DC to 22 if you wanted. This means that small differences in skill, while perhaps not allowing you to craft stronger stuff, allows you to craft slightly faster than a rival.
So using these house rule, you could take 10+12=22 on your check, versus DC 20+2=22, to get 22*22*gp = 484 gp worth of work done per week on your craft; meaning it will take 9.3 weeks, roughly. Additional helpers (+2 Aid Another) and masterwork tools (+2) could make the process faster.
If house rules aren't for you, then there's always a wondrous item that casts fabricate once per day, which basically allows you to use your Craft Skill sans the crafting time.
Special: You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. This allows you to create the item more quickly (since you'll be multiplying this higher DC by your Craft check result to determine progress). You must decide whether to increase the DC before you make each weekly or daily check.
Work your expert to the bone!
So I want to make a trap.
8th level expert should have 8 ranks + 3 class + 1 int +2 mw tools, so +14.
Get him 8 aids that can Aid Another. These should be 1st level experts, having a +4 bonus would mean they're 75% likely to get it done. Thus, you can assume 6 successful Aid Anothers to all his checks.Result when he takes 10 to craft: 36
Raise the DC by 10, to 30.
36*30=1080 sp/week. So 108 gp, meaning the crafting will take 42 weeks. Of course, it's still really bad, but not AS bad.
You could probably have more aides, rationalizing it such as not everybody is working AT the trap but more people are working at parts and the master craftsman assembles the trap.
Furthermore, I think it's fine to houserule that you can increase the DC to whatever you can take 10 on. However, then we're into house rule territory.
With 20 aides instead of 8, as well as the house rule mentioned above:
+14 + 30 (aides, assuming 3/4 makes the roll) = +44 on the roll, vs DC 54.
54*54 = 2916 sp/week. Building takes 15 weeks. Still a long time, but not AS bad.
EDIT2: Still, I think traps are HORRIBLY overpriced, not just from a game balance perspective but also from a realism one. While I accept that game economics isn't real world economics, requireing 3000 gp (many years of wages for a commoner) to dig a hole and cover it is overkill.
I would have preferred if there was a lot of low-price traps that were quite easy for the trained mind to spot but where still useful against common soldiers.
EDIT3: I don't know what the goal of your trap is, but if it's the one I mentioned above (hindering common soldiers in case of an attack or the like) I think it might be a good idea to lower the disable device DC to 15, decreasing CR by still maintaining difficulty decently.
Special: You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. This allows you to create the item more quickly (since you'll be multiplying this higher DC by your Craft check result to determine progress). You must decide whether to increase the DC before you make each weekly or daily check.
Furthermore, I think it's fine to houserule that you can increase the DC to whatever you can take 10 on. However, then we're into house rule territory.
Now, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing a restriction on how many times that +10 can be applied. You can voluntarily add the +10 to a check, so choosing to add it two or three times, which you can do with a large staff like that, seems more an extended leap of logic based on the rules than house ruling~
Your problem started at the word "craft."
Darkjoy is correct in saying craft rules are crazy if by "crazy" one means "stupid" or "intended to discourage PCs from ever crafting anything."
I really liked Making Craft Work. It's the best 99 cents I've ever spent on a game.
I recently realized that even though my 6th level character can take 10 and have a 26 craft (bows) check result....it's still going to take me 20 weeks to make a Masterwork Composite Longbow that allows +5 Str modifier.
20 weeks....ugh.
Uhm,
Hire 3 experts.
Seriously.
Each can only work 8 hours per day.
Have the cleric grant a +1 to his skill check each day with guidance.
That gives him (as shown above) a +15. Taking 10, each one produces per week :
25 x 20 = 50gp per week per person, or 150gp per week.
Or 30 weeks even.
If you use the alternate 'raise to as high as you can +10 on', then you can do the following.
25 x 25 = 62.5 gp per person x 3 = 187.5, or 24 weeks.
If you add in some helpers and get them all up to 30 each.
30 x 30 = 90gp per week * 3 = 270gp per week, or 17 weeks. A little over 3 months.
Compared to the price, it's not that expensive to hire the guys to do it. The bad thing is, everyone will know about your trap.
As a GM, I allow magic to 'quicken' things up. Stone shape to speed up the pit trap, fabrication to make the trap workings.
I'd add a +5 for each spell that can speed up production to the check for making the trap, each week. That's at least two (stone shape and fabricate)
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Still, I think traps are HORRIBLY overpriced, not just from a game balance perspective but also from a realism one. While I accept that game economics isn't real world economics, requireing 3000 gp (many years of wages for a commoner) to dig a hole and cover it is overkill.
If you ever saw my local city council repairing the roads around here you would think that the LARGE cost in time and money was completely realistic concerning digging and covering holes.
S.
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I really liked Making Craft Work. It's the best 99 cents I've ever spent on a game.
+1 this is really a good ruleset that my players love.
--Vrocket Science
I recently realized that even though my 6th level character can take 10 and have a 26 craft (bows) check result....it's still going to take me 20 weeks to make a Masterwork Composite Longbow that allows +5 Str modifier.
20 weeks....ugh.
I can see it now ... a lone adventurer sits on the front porch of his local saloon-er, I mean tavern ... Chewing on a spig of long grass he/she gets to widdlin'. Its gonna be whole lotta widdlin'...
I really liked Making Craft Work. It's the best 99 cents I've ever spent on a game.+1 this is really a good ruleset that my players love.
--Vrocket Science
+1. Never felt so good about spending $0.99.
As a GM, I allow magic to 'quicken' things up. Stone shape to speed up the pit trap, fabrication to make the trap workings.
I'd add a +5 for each spell that can speed up production to the check for making the trap, each week. That's at least two (stone shape and fabricate)
I use fabricate to simply make traps. The cost of the raw materials stays the same, but the creation time is a few rounds rather than months.
Spend 4.000 gp on an INT Headband +2 with Craft (Traps) as it's associated skill, give to your Wizard and have him Fabricate away.
Then proceed with other Craft headbands as needed.
Of course you may have issues with the local workers union... But of course, that is why you had the traps installed! :-)
Still, I think traps are HORRIBLY overpriced, not just from a game balance perspective but also from a realism one. While I accept that game economics isn't real world economics, requireing 3000 gp (many years of wages for a commoner) to dig a hole and cover it is overkill.If you ever saw my local city council repairing the roads around here you would think that the LARGE cost in time and money was completely realistic concerning digging and covering holes.
S.
The price to make a 3x3 meter pit that's 6 feet deep - and note that his is just the pit and covering, no fancy spikes or anything - is 1000 gp. The average laborer earns 1 sp per day, or 36.5 gp/year. That pit is 27.4 years wages. That would IRL be a cost of 1.1 million dollars for that 3*3 meter covered hole, comparing average wage income in the US.
Which is suprisingly exactly what the US government pays to have a 10' by 10' hole dug.....The price to make a 3x3 meter pit that's 6 feet deep - and note that his is just the pit and covering, no fancy spikes or anything - is 1000 gp. The average laborer earns 1 sp per day, or 36.5 gp/year. That pit is 27.4 years wages. That would IRL be a cost of 1.1 million dollars for that 3*3 meter covered hole, comparing average wage income in the US.
Source on that? Sounds like I could earn a fortune there.
Right, you leave the poor guy working on a 4+kgp project all by himself, of course it'll take a couple years. Using the +10 rule combined with more workers is the way to go. Think about it in real life, one man didn't make a coocoo clock. A team of craftsmen worked on the gears, another team made the springs, some other group carved the case, etc. The DM should let you break the job up so you can have a staff work on it.
Also note - in real life, Ghengis Kahns' composit bows actually really did take 2 years to make, each. Whole villages had to work together to produce a suit of chainmail, and it still took months. We're a little spoiled by living in the post indistrial revolution future that we expect things to be made quickly, but it's really only our technological magic like assembly lines and percision power tools that make it so. The rules on this are actually realistic for the setting.
Right, you leave the poor guy working on a 4+kgp project all by himself, of course it'll take a couple years. Using the +10 rule combined with more workers is the way to go. Think about it in real life, one man didn't make a coocoo clock. A team of craftsmen worked on the gears, another team made the springs, some other group carved the case, etc. The DM should let you break the job up so you can have a staff work on it.
Also note - in real life, Ghengis Kahns' composit bows actually really did take 2 years to make, each. Whole villages had to work together to produce a suit of chainmail, and it still took months. We're a little spoiled by living in the post indistrial revolution future that we expect things to be made quickly, but it's really only our technological magic like assembly lines and percision power tools that make it so. The rules on this are actually realistic for the setting.
While it's true that crafting items takes much longer with medieval technology, the rules are still not realistic. For example, under the current crafting rules, creating a gold paperweight takes over 100 times as long as creating an identical lead paperweight. In fact, a gold ball would also take far longer to make than a steel ball! I don't care what kind of tools you're using, gold is far easier to work than steel.