The Republicans used this tactic in 2008 in both Arizona and Texas, so it's not limited to the Democratic party by any means. Don't write it up as so.
The big reason you pay the union is because they negotiated your contract and your nice pay is because of them. Therein you have a choice...become management/salary, get paid a different wage, and get fired at any time, while not having any representation, work rights, or due process if your boss decides he doesn't like you for personal reasons. You're gone.
Unions started up because employers take advantage of people. Jobs are valuable. Everyone in the country has benefited from unions in one way or another. Unions built the middle class of this country. It's just a fact.
This in no way excuses the hostility between unions and business, the ineptness of higher ups on both sides, the abuse of the system, and the declining numbers because the union has come not to stand for hard-working blue collar workers earning a decent wage, but inept, lazy a&~*$+&s milking the system for everything they can because they can't be fired.
I come from Michigan, the blue collar heart of unions. I've been watching unions strangle themselves to death for decades. They did so by asking for too much, and the manufacturers couldn't neccessarily fire them, so they did the next best thing...they stopped hiring them. It all came down to seniority, and absolutely no new blood in the unions for the past 20-30 years.
President Obama broke the UAW...and in doing so, opened them up to hiring in new autoworkers for the first time in a generation. Until a union actually means more then adhering to rules so I can shaft you, unions will continue to lose power.
But blaming unions for fiscal idiocy of the states is a mask for the underlying problems. Abuse starts at the top, not at the middle. You want to rail at people, rail at the ones who are abusing the system, not the ones in the middle who just want a good job at a decent wage, and that is the vast majority of all union people.
==Aelryinth
I don´t think that a state (or country, for that matter) should be required to have to bargain with a union by law, or being in a union should be mandatory for an employee. But neither do I think that states can even pass legislation declaring unions not having the right to bargain on their members behalf (which is pretty much the point of a union), much less if this does indeed apply only to unions of public servants or those unions that didn´t support the winner of the last election back then - this is a massive abuse of legislation, as it mixes up the state as legislator with the state as employer. Legislation has nothing directly to do with employment of public servants. If legislation about unions being mandatory was passed in the past, this legislation is is to blame and should be undone, as this is a part of the relationship between employer and employee and thus, not a matter of legislation.
Even here in Germany, nobody would happen on the idea of such legislation, and I doubt it would be in keeping with the laws. The unions here have a traditionally strong position and have proven themselves time and again as a sensible partner of the employers, with practicing moderation in the bargains when the economy was weak, and having an eye for things beyond their immediate concerns, being part of the society as a whole. (The idea of curtailing unions immediately calls back memories of very dark times indeed, so this would be unthinkable here.)
Sending out the police to drag the "fleeing" representatives back in is just ridiculous and speaks volumes about those threatening such - their understanding of democracy is not worth a damn. In democratic tradition, you should talk to each other about the issues at hand and find a compromise way before a situation gets out of hand like this. But the present political atmosphere in the US seems to have bargaining only at gunpoint on either side (although the Tea Party movement seems to be the worst of them all, judging from afar). It seems to me that the US society in general is very strongly confrontational beneath all that friendly veneer you encounter on a daily basis. I know Germans are often seen as being curt or even outright grumpy, but this is for the most case a matter of minding the business at hand first and foremost, and having no tradition of "warm-up small talk". This behaviour is sometimes seen as being honest in contrast to the friendly facade presented by Americans, which is seen just as a false facade - the recent political shouting matches in the US seem to reinforce that notion.
Stefan
On the original point of the thread:
The first day the democrats fled the state someone had posted part of the Wisconsin law (which I cannot find now) that stated that they describe felony Misconduct in Office in part as refusing to perform duties of office, which the missing reps could be guilty of. Some are attempting to work by phone though I read about one committee chairwoman refused to acknowledge their vote because they didn't have an acceptable excuse to be absent.
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IF they don't want to do the job, get out of the way and give up the paycheck, we can find others willing to do the work. Refusing to ALLOW a vote because you know it will go against you is a pathetic game and an attack on the democratic process
I would have considered government of the many by the few an attack on freedom and equality.
My two cents....
While yes unions are important....though I would like to see laws pass that curtail their power...as they have gotten too powerful for the good of the invidual(I am against the big three...bussiness...unions...and goverment...all three seem to screw over the invidual). But what the proper course of action according to our laws woiuld be to vote on it...than take it to the courts. Not allowing it to pass by fleeing the state seem wrong to me. Though from what I read...I also thing the law is wrong. But I believe it should be fought within the system.
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My two cents....
While yes unions are important....though I would like to see laws pass that curtail their power...as they have gotten too powerful for the good of the invidual(I am against the big three...bussiness...unions...and goverment...all three seem to screw over the invidual). But what the proper course of action according to our laws woiuld be to vote on it...than take it to the courts. Not allowing it to pass by fleeing the state seem wrong to me. Though from what I read...I also thing the law is wrong. But I believe it should be fought within the system.
They b+%&# a lot about Unions but if there were not Unions would you enjoy bidding for your right to work in competition with all those other hungry workers prepared to do your job for less?
Only losers get convicted of war crimes.
I hope this is not actually true, at least not if countries are involved that have a jurisdiction worth its name.
In Ohio this is a good tactical move which very well may give Republicans a permanent advantage in the state. There's no better method than to render your opposition penniless and with the domination of state legislature, they're not dependent on Democrats to make the quorum to pass.
I see. So, politics is the continuation of war with other weapons? I don´t see how a permanent advantage of one party is democratic in any way. And here I thought that the US was an exemplar of democratic practice - I´m obviously still very naive. A so-called democracy where one party is practically assured dominance by "good tactical moves" sounds to me like a road to autocratic government.
Remember this is America not Europe. We have here a system of majority rule, not representative rule. Which mean when you have the majority, you curbstomp your opposition to the ground if you get the chance.
Well, then lets hope that your goals are never in opposition to the majority. I like the european system better, but then, I´ve never been a very competitive guy, and I lose at Risk regularly.
Stefan
You know, before this thread I was trying to make a conscious effort to read up on roleplaying topics and stay out of the OTD forum.
Curse you, Mr. Tindall!
*nelson laugh* Ha HA!
Completly OFF TOPIC here but I had to respond to Stefans post:
I like the european system better, but then, I´ve never been a very competitive guy, and I lose at Risk regularly.
Dude I win at RISK all the time. The trick is to play Germany. You leave england totally alone while you build up your anti aircraft. Mean while your tanks are totally owning africa and russia. It takes the U.S. player too long to get over to you and by that time all of europe is yours. Then you focus on england and finally the U.S.
Germany is in the best position at the start of the game and as long as your aggresive but careful then you can win the game 8 out of 10 times. until ALL the other players get tired of you winning(even japan) and totally gang up on you.
Now we play settlers of catan and arkham horror.
You may now resume your regularly scheduled thread already in progress.
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IF they don't want to do the job, get out of the way and give up the paycheck, we can find others willing to do the work. Refusing to ALLOW a vote because you know it will go against you is a pathetic game and an attack on the democratic processI would have considered government of the many by the few an attack on freedom and equality.
Who is the many and few?
When dems had the majority they did as they damn well pleased and now are pissing themselves that they lost that power
In one source the vote I beilieve in Illinois is to stop people from being forced to pay union dues even when they themselves are not nor do they want to be union members.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. The events are taking place in Wisconsin, not Illinois (although the missing Democratic senators are [were?] in Chicago). Are you referring to another event, or confusing the two states?
From what I've read, the issue does not appear to be one of a "closed shop" (wherein all non-supervisory employees must belong to a union) but curtailment of what matters are covered under collective bargaining and, more specifically, the employees' contributions to health insurance and pensions.
Nope it's a diffrent event in illinois. I just went back and checked.
There the republicans are trying to stop folks from being forced to pay union dues and the dems except for two are no-shows. They need 67 total attendees in order to have a quarm but they only have 57 senators.
As far as a fillibuster, those can and have been over ridden useing roberts rules of order but to deliberatly not show up to deny the legislative process is well beyond the scope of rules of order. From my understanding.
I actually don't have a problem with the WI Democratic legislators actions. I don't think there is anything unlawful about their actions. If there is they should be held accountable; I tend to think law makers should pay the maximum penalty for violating the law.
Even though this seems extreme I think they are using the only option the rules have left them. Some of them may consider collective bargaining a basic human right; if so then I don't think this is an unreasonable or unlawful tactic.
I'm fine with public employees having to share some financial pain, but stripping the unions of their collective bargain rights seems to infringe on a basic human right to me.
Just kidding. Interesting thoughts, BT.
I actually don't have a problem with the WI Democratic legislators actions. I don't think there is anything unlawful about their actions. If there is they should be held accountable; I tend to think law makers should pay the maximum penalty for violating the law.
Even though this seems extreme I think they are using the only option the rules have left them. Some of them may consider collective bargaining a basic human right; if so then I don't think this is an unreasonable or unlawful tactic.
I'm fine with public employees having to share some financial pain, but stripping the unions of their collective bargain rights seems to infringe on a basic human right to me.
I'm torn. Maybe they're simply doing what the must in the context of the established system, but I have to question rules that allow the system to be shutdown so easily.
Indeed. This seems to be a rather sizeable loophole. What if EVERYONE did this?
I'm troubled by the Wisconsin thing. It strikes me as one of those tactics that works, but opens a huge can of worms. As usual, like the filibuster, people are arguing one side or the other based on their team rather than considering the full implications of the policy/procedure. Also, I'm loathe to subscribe to a general liberal media bias (it's a simplistic view, and frequently used to dismiss legitimate debate/facts), but I suspect that if this were Tea Party backed legislators walking from a state chamber, the portrayal of that walk-out would be slightly different.
Because, here's the rub: it can happen again. If a legislative body can so easily be paralyzed because of tricks like this, it will happen again. And it is something of an abuse of quorum (though, that said, I see it happen at the corporate board level in similar situations - board members who are outvoted will not attend the meeting, thus denying quorum). The ability to so easily paralyze the legislative body is quite frightening and could be very destructive (particularly when it results in gestopo tactics, like arresting the legislators).
Having the police arrest them is very frightening and, again, is one of those things that I think people only support when it's against the "other" team. Somehow, I doubt the same people would be advocating arrest if these were republican lawmakers walking out over, say, increased access to abortion. Somehow, the hairs would be split differently (just as they were in the filibuster debates pre-08 and post-08). Hooray for hypocriscy.
In an ideal world, I think the correct answer is to not count individuals who are intentionally absent when determining quorum. Either that, or stripping them of their office if they don't attend the legislative session X times in a row. That's how a civilized democracy should operate, by firing the person who doesn't do their job, not arresting them. When you arrest them, that's called slavery.
Essentially, what he said.
The Republicans used this tactic in 2008 in both Arizona and Texas, so it's not limited to the Democratic party by any means. Don't write it up as so.
The big reason you pay the union is because they negotiated your contract and your nice pay is because of them. Therein you have a choice...become management/salary, get paid a different wage, and get fired at any time, while not having any representation, work rights, or due process if your boss decides he doesn't like you for personal reasons. You're gone.
Unions started up because employers take advantage of people. Jobs are valuable. Everyone in the country has benefited from unions in one way or another. Unions built the middle class of this country. It's just a fact.
This in no way excuses the hostility between unions and business, the ineptness of higher ups on both sides, the abuse of the system, and the declining numbers because the union has come not to stand for hard-working blue collar workers earning a decent wage, but inept, lazy a*&~*!~s milking the system for everything they can because they can't be fired.
I come from Michigan, the blue collar heart of unions. I've been watching unions strangle themselves to death for decades. They did so by asking for too much, and the manufacturers couldn't neccessarily fire them, so they did the next best thing...they stopped hiring them. It all came down to seniority, and absolutely no new blood in the unions for the past 20-30 years.
President Obama broke the UAW...and in doing so, opened them up to hiring in new autoworkers for the first time in a generation. Until a union actually means more then adhering to rules so I can shaft you, unions will continue to lose power.
But blaming unions for fiscal idiocy of the states is a mask for the underlying problems. Abuse starts at the top, not at the middle. You want to rail at people, rail at the ones who are abusing the system, not the ones in the middle who just want a good job at a decent wage, and that is the vast majority of all union people....
Facinating. Thank you very much for your take and the history lesson. Do we have any posters out by WI that can fill us in on things on a street-level?
Both parties have caused numerous problems in this country in the past 50 years or so. However, any politician that is elected to do a job and runs away when they can't get their way - is, in my opinion, acting like a child and has no business holding a public office. All these Senators need to be jailed AND fired.
Take the time and read the following books:
'The Battle' ~ Arthur C. Brooks
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-between-Enterprise-Government-Americas/dp/B004 H8GL4A/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297342838&sr=1-1
Incredibly informative - this book is well written and explains not only where our country is now but why. This book opened my eyes to a great many things I had previously never considered. An excellent read.
'Unsustainable' ~ James E. MacDougald
http://www.amazon.com/UNSUSTAINABLE-James-MacDougald/dp/0615373682/ref=sr_1 _1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297343024&sr=1-1
While the book 'The Battle' opened my eyes with it's overflow of information - this book slapped me and made me sick. This book is by far the BEST book I have ever read that exposes the truth behind why our country is in its downward spiral. I wish I was kidding when I said it sickened me - much of what I read I had to reread to make sure I had read it correctly. The unethical and irresponsible ways in which our government (on every level), the unions, as well as the government employees have repeatedly screwed the people in this country will shock and sicken you. We must fix our countries problems now before they get worse - and they will.
and, for your own edification - make sure you know your rights:
'The Words We Live By' ~ by Linda R. Monks
http://www.amazon.com/Words-Live-Annotated-Constitution-Stonesong/dp/078688 620X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297342399&sr=8-1
This book delves in to what our Constitution says and what it means. Having a good grasp of what your Rights are is a must for every American - more-so now than ever. Read this with your kids, spouse and give it to your friends. Know your Rights!
All these books are very well written and are fantastic sources of info. Everyone, regardless of political views, should read these.
Obama made his own tatical errors in not being aggressive enough in pursuing his agenda until it got down to the crunch at the end of last year.
Obama made his error when he started stomping on and ignoring our Rights and intentionally going against the Constitution. Every president crosses the line of the Constitution from time to time but Obama has done so repeatedly and one may only trample an Americans Rights for so long before we get sick of it and strike back.
Count em up - He has, so far, broken the 5th, 9th and 10th Amendments. He has threatened the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 22nd - and these are just what I know of.
Since he swore and oath to uphold and protect the Constitution - He has, in effect, been committing treason since the day he was sworn in.
Unless you're going to be specific about what you mean by Amendment breaking, it's an argument without substance. For the most part the problem I have the man is that he did too little until i was almsot too late with the sole exception of the Health Care program which was severely gutted thanks to the Democrats caving into the health care industry.
Obamacare is against Amendment 9th and 10th and, arguably, the 5th.
The 1st Amendment, Freedom of Speech, is constantly being threatened. Granted, this is not only Obama - he is just the latest.
The 2nd Amendment, Right to Bear Arms, he has threatened since years prior to being elected. Since he was elected he insisted he will make gun ownership illegal. Ammunition manufacturers are being forced out of the country - this is a first step in squashing gun ownership. If all ammo is imported - the government can impose whatever type of fees they want. Essentially making the ownership of guns pointless - you'll no longer be able to afford ammunition.
The 4th Amendment, Search and Seizure, granted this Amendment was ignored in order to pass the Patriot Act but the Obama administration could have allowed the Act to expire but they did everything in their power to keep it intact - they even wanted to expand its power.
The 22nd Amendment, Presidential Term Limits. Obama has made claims he intends to be in office for 10 years. Now, at first I figured he had to have been mistaken but he taught Constitutional law - he would never make that mistake. Everyone knows the president is limited to 8 years (2 terms of 4 years).
All the above are easily found online. For that matter so is the fact he lied about his religious faith. He CLAIMED while he was campaigning that he was Christian. He has since admitted to being Muslim. Personally, I don't care what the mans faith is but lying in order to get in to office is just that - lying! Especially when he intentionally hid the fact he is Muslim - the very faith of the terrorists we are still fighting. Again, this is easily searched online.
How and why should we put our trust in him?
Obama made his error when he started stomping on and ignoring our Rights and intentionally going against the Constitution. Every president crosses the line of the Constitution from time to time but Obama has done so repeatedly and one may only trample an Americans Rights for so long before we get sick of it and strike back.
Count em up - He has, so far, broken the 5th, 9th and 10th Amendments. He has threatened the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 22nd - and these are just what I know of.
Since he swore and oath to uphold and protect the Constitution - He has, in effect, been committing treason since the day he was sworn in.
Do you honestly believe this?
Unless you're going to be specific about what you mean by Amendment breaking, it's an argument without substance. For the most part the problem I have the man is that he did too little until i was almsot too late with the sole exception of the Health Care program which was severely gutted thanks to the Democrats caving into the health care industry.Obamacare is against Amendment 9th and 10th and, arguably, the 5th.
The 1st Amendment, Freedom of Speech, is constantly being threatened. Granted, this is not only Obama - he is just the latest.
The 2nd Amendment, Right to Bear Arms, he has threatened since years prior to being elected. Since he was elected he insisted he will make gun ownership illegal. Ammunition manufacturers are being forced out of the country - this is a first step in squashing gun ownership. If all ammo is imported - the government can impose whatever type of fees they want. Essentially making the ownership of guns pointless - you'll no longer be able to afford ammunition.
The 4th Amendment, Search and Seizure, granted this Amendment was ignored in order to pass the Patriot Act but the Obama administration could have allowed the Act to expire but they did everything in their power to keep it intact - they even wanted to expand its power.
The 22nd Amendment, Presidential Term Limits. Obama has made claims he intends to be in office for 10 years. Now, at first I figured he had to have been mistaken but he taught Constitutional law - he would never make that mistake. Everyone knows the president is limited to 8 years (2 terms of 4 years).
All the above are easily found online. For that matter so is the fact he lied about his religious faith. He CLAIMED while he was campaigning that he was Christian. He has since admitted to being Muslim. Personally, I don't care what the mans faith is but lying in order to get in to office is just that - lying! Especially when he intentionally hid the fact he is Muslim - the very faith of the terrorists we are still...
Holy s#!+...you are serious.
LO
L
Do you honestly believe this?Obama made his error when he started stomping on and ignoring our Rights and intentionally going against the Constitution. Every president crosses the line of the Constitution from time to time but Obama has done so repeatedly and one may only trample an Americans Rights for so long before we get sick of it and strike back.
Count em up - He has, so far, broken the 5th, 9th and 10th Amendments. He has threatened the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 22nd - and these are just what I know of.
Since he swore and oath to uphold and protect the Constitution - He has, in effect, been committing treason since the day he was sworn in.
It's provable!
*facepalm*
May I suggest that we don't derail this thread with a debate about what the president's religion is. If we go down that road it should have its own thread.
Please.
Do you honestly believe this?Obama made his error when he started stomping on and ignoring our Rights and intentionally going against the Constitution. Every president crosses the line of the Constitution from time to time but Obama has done so repeatedly and one may only trample an Americans Rights for so long before we get sick of it and strike back.
Count em up - He has, so far, broken the 5th, 9th and 10th Amendments. He has threatened the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 22nd - and these are just what I know of.
Since he swore and oath to uphold and protect the Constitution - He has, in effect, been committing treason since the day he was sworn in.It's provable!
No doubt. Why don't you enlighten us?
Bugleyman - I am not going to argue with you nor am I going to try to educate you. I've found it is a waste of my time with Obama sheeple - educate yourself.
Take the time and read the following books:
'The Battle' ~ Arthur C. Brooks
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-between-Enterprise-Government-Americas/dp/B004 H8GL4A/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297342838&sr=1-1
Incredibly informative - this book is well written and explains not only where our country is now but why. This book opened my eyes to a great many things I had previously never considered. An excellent read.
'Unsustainable' ~ James E. MacDougald
http://www.amazon.com/UNSUSTAINABLE-James-MacDougald/dp/0615373682/ref=sr_1 _1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297343024&sr=1-1
While the book 'The Battle' opened my eyes with it's overflow of information - this book slapped me and made me sick. This book is by far the BEST book I have ever read that exposes the truth behind why our country is in its downward spiral. I wish I was kidding when I said it sickened me - much of what I read I had to reread to make sure I had read it correctly. The unethical and irresponsible ways in which our government (on every level), the unions, as well as the government employees have repeatedly screwed the people in this country will shock and sicken you. We must fix our countries problems now before they get worse - and they will.
and, for your own edification - make sure you know your rights:
'The Words We Live By' ~ by Linda R. Monks
http://www.amazon.com/Words-Live-Annotated-Constitution-Stonesong/dp/078688 620X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297342399&sr=8-1
This book delves in to what our Constitution says and what it means. Having a good grasp of what your Rights are is a must for every American - more-so now than ever. Read this with your kids, spouse and give it to your friends. Know your Rights!
All these books are very well written and are fantastic sources of info. Everyone, regardless of political views, should read these.
*facepalm*
May I suggest that we don't derail this thread with a debate about what the president's religion is. If we go down that road it should have its own thread.
Please.
Can we "debate" about the 10-year in office thing? How about the taking all the guns away?
You always ruin my fun. :(
I've found it is a waste of my time with Obama sheeple - educate yourself.
I'm a sheeple now? Do I get a t-shirt?
No?
...I want a t-shirt.
*facepalm*
May I suggest that we don't derail this thread with a debate about what the president's religion is. If we go down that road it should have its own thread.
Please.
Can we "debate" about the 10-year in office thing? How about the taking all the guns away?
You always ruin my fun. :(
As I said - everything I posted is easily searchable. Use your little fingers and type it in to your search engine - a lot of it actually has video and audio of Obama saying it so you don't strain your brain.
Educate yourself.
Do you honestly believe this?Obama made his error when he started stomping on and ignoring our Rights and intentionally going against the Constitution. Every president crosses the line of the Constitution from time to time but Obama has done so repeatedly and one may only trample an Americans Rights for so long before we get sick of it and strike back.
Count em up - He has, so far, broken the 5th, 9th and 10th Amendments. He has threatened the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 22nd - and these are just what I know of.
Since he swore and oath to uphold and protect the Constitution - He has, in effect, been committing treason since the day he was sworn in.
I can't think of a president in my lifetime that has not violated the constitution, but I take a rather expansive view of individual rights.
I can't think of a president in my lifetime that has not violated the constitution, but I take a rather expansive view of individual rights.Do you honestly believe this?Obama made his error when he started stomping on and ignoring our Rights and intentionally going against the Constitution. Every president crosses the line of the Constitution from time to time but Obama has done so repeatedly and one may only trample an Americans Rights for so long before we get sick of it and strike back.
Count em up - He has, so far, broken the 5th, 9th and 10th Amendments. He has threatened the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 22nd - and these are just what I know of.
Since he swore and oath to uphold and protect the Constitution - He has, in effect, been committing treason since the day he was sworn in.
Which is why I specifically said - 'Every president crosses the line of the Constitution from time to time'
...a lot of it actually has video and audio of Obama saying it so you don't strain your brain.
Educate yourself.
So kind of you! I am, after all, extremely dumb. If you'll excuse me, I have to go practice my counting. Math is hard!
So kind of you! I am, after all, extremely dumb. If you'll excuse me, I have to go practice my counting. Math is hard!...a lot of it actually has video and audio of Obama saying it so you don't strain your brain.
Educate yourself.
LMAO!!
*facepalm*
May I suggest that we don't derail this thread with a debate about what the president's religion is. If we go down that road it should have its own thread.
Please.
Can we "debate" about the 10-year in office thing? How about the taking all the guns away?
You always ruin my fun. :(
As I said - everything I posted is easily searchable. Use your little fingers and type it in to your search engine - a lot of it actually has video and audio of Obama saying it so you don't strain your brain.
Educate yourself.
Is he one of David Icke's lizard overlords, too?
Everything you've argued is either a distortion or an outright falsehood. Congress has the constitutional authority to act in interstate commerce in which the health industry very clearly falls into. He has made no statement, signed no legislation which has had ANY impact on gun ownership rights. As to the Patriot Act, that was a bipartisan chicanery and your Tea Party friends aren't looking to end it either. As far as term limits go, Obama can't be in office for more than eight years it would take a Constitutional Amemdment to change that and that would take more time than he could conceivably have in office. More to the point he has made no statement nor given any such indication. The only way a President can serve longer is to start his career as Vice President to a President who does not finish his term.
Claims to Obama being Muslim have as much truth and substance as to those who claim a foreign birth... ergo none. Like just about everyone else in this country, Obama is descended from immigrants, and unless someone has told me something different you're not required to be descended from an Anglo-Saxon nation to qualify as an American. Obama practises about as much Christanity as any other figure in Washington, take that as you will.
Fact is...the Obama election seems to have been the tipping point among many White Males who were just at the edge of sanity. You've been reading too many of them.
I have to say that you're really not getting into the spirit of this thing.
LazarX - have you bothered to look them up? Have you bothered to watch the video or read the articles? No? Obviously!
Nevermind! Don't bother.
LazarX - have you bothered to look them up? Have you bothered to watch the video or read the articles? No? Obviously!
Nevermind! Don't bother.
FREE YOUR MIND LAZARX!!!
You all have very valid points but I don't belive that it has "that" much to do with the current democratic walk out in illinois and wisconsin.
I do plan on getting those books simply because they seem intresting and any thing that can help educate me as to better protect my rights is a good thing.
One thing I would like to make slight mention of (yes I am contibuteing to my own derail) is that while the current President has been in office ammo and guns sales have tripled and have remained so so a good long while. Every one else is laying off workers but Mosberg and Smith and Wesson and others are haveing to add shifts to keep up with the demand. Not to mention ammo sales have had to be limited for the first time that I can remember.
So has anyone heard anything more about the missing democrats?
Everything you've argued is either a distortion or an outright falsehood. Congress has the constitutional authority to act in interstate commerce in which the health industry very clearly falls into. He has made no statement, signed no legislation which has had ANY impact on gun ownership rights. As to the Patriot Act, that was a...
Obamacare is against Amendment 9th and 10th and, arguably, the 5th.
The 1st Amendment, Freedom of Speech, is constantly being threatened. Granted, this is not only Obama - he is just the latest.
The 2nd Amendment, Right to Bear Arms, he has threatened since years prior to being elected. Since he was elected he insisted he will make gun ownership illegal. Ammunition manufacturers are being forced out of the country - this is a first step in squashing gun ownership. If all ammo is imported - the government can impose whatever type of fees they want. Essentially making the ownership of guns pointless - you'll no longer be able to afford ammunition.
The 4th Amendment, Search and Seizure, granted this Amendment was ignored in order to pass the Patriot Act but the Obama administration could have allowed the Act to expire but they did everything in their power to keep it intact - they even wanted to expand its power.
The 22nd Amendment, Presidential Term Limits. Obama has made claims he intends to be in office for 10 years. Now, at first I figured he had to have been mistaken but he taught Constitutional law - he would never make that mistake. Everyone knows the president is limited to 8 years (2 terms of 4 years).
All the above are easily found online. For that matter so is the fact he lied about his religious faith. He CLAIMED while he was campaigning that he was Christian. He has since admitted to being Muslim. Personally, I don't care what the mans faith is but lying in order to get in to office is just that - lying! Especially when he intentionally hid the fact he is Muslim - the very faith of the terrorists we are still...
While I understand the need to challenge statements you see as absurd, can it get it's own thread?
This one has the chance of being informative about the numerous budget and legacy cost issues that states are dealing with currently.
EDIT: I'm also curious how much of an issue legacy costs are at the federal level.
OPEN YOUR MIND LAZARX!!!LazarX - have you bothered to look them up? Have you bothered to watch the video or read the articles? No? Obviously!
Nevermind! Don't bother.
I don't care either way if either of you believe me.
I do, however, suggest you actually read the books I suggested and actually do some research - watch the videos of him saying he's Muslim, listen to him talking about the points I brought above, read the his quotes about his plans for the U.S.
Going by what the biased media fill your heads with is a bad idea - as is blindly following any politician regardless of republican or democrat.
You all have very valid points but I don't belive that it has "that" much to do with the current democratic walk out in illinois and wisconsin.
I do plan on getting those books simply because they seem intresting and any thing that can help educate me as to better protect my rights is a good thing.
One thing I would like to make slight mention of (yes I am contibuteing to my own derail) is that while the current President has been in office ammo and guns sales have tripled and have remained so so a good long while. Every one else is laying off workers but Mosberg and Smith and Wesson and others are haveing to add shifts to keep up with the demand. Not to mention ammo sales have had to be limited for the first time that I can remember.
So has anyone heard anything more about the missing democrats?
The missing democrats are in a hotel (Best Western) in Illinois unless they have moved since the last time I heard.
They are fighting the cuts - which are NOT even demanding. The governor is asking that union employees pay more for their pensions and health insurance. Neither of which after the increase is what we the public pay for ours. Coincidentally - if these increases are not met the state of Wisconsin will have to fire 12,000 employees in order to afford the pensions and health care of those that refuse to give a little.
I found this magazine as a reference to my earlier comment about David Icke indcating Obama's true origins. Like any rational person, I scoffed at it.
Until I saw this. Even John McCain tried to warn. The truth is right here, people! WAKE UP!
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As to the criminalization of this behavior (scooting out of state so you don't have to vote). I wonder if the people these congressmen represent could start a petition to have them removed from office for failing in their duties.
What makes you think that their constituents don't want them doing this?
I found this magazine as a reference to my earlier comment about David Icke indcating Obama's true origins. Like any rational person, I scoffed at it.
Until I saw this. Even John McCain tried to warn. The truth is right here, people! WAKE UP!
Thanks!
As I said - everything I posted is easily searchable. Use your little fingers and type it in to your search engine - a lot of it actually has video and audio of Obama saying it so you don't strain your brain. Educate yourself.
Andrew Vachss coined the best term I've heard yet for people who follow the adage of "It was on the internet, so it MUST be true!" He calls them Cyber-chumps.
How dare they hold up the work of the state government just because they know they are going to lose.What an eloquent definition of the word "filibuster". I seem to remember hearing about a few of those over the last two years and three months...
Did you not hear about filibusters the six years before the dates you mentioned? Holding back Bush's court appointments for years was okay then, but when they acheived a majorty, they wanted to change the rules and cry foul.
Filibusters have been used or abused by both parties. Nd the more desperate you get to stop some hstiel action bythe majority party, the more your team will look for ways to bring stalemate into the equation.
I thin the actions of the Wisconsin Dems is reprehensible, and I think the facts don't suport a lot of the claims I have heard in their defense.
The union did not concede originally to the reforms outside the 'union busting'. In 2009, they wouldn't even talk to the union-friendly governmor about concessions. The moeny had to come from somewhere else.
Walker is not screwing the little guy, he was elected by the little guy with a mandate to help repair the state's saging business climate and $3+ BILLION underfunded liabilities.
Walker is not owned by a special interest, he is, in fact, taking on a special interest.
He's not trying to kill labor unions, he is trying to guarantee that the budget fix stays in palce and isn't just renegotiated under the threat of a strike. His reforms only impact the state employees union, which shouldn't even exist. Nothing touches private sector unions. Finally, the only reforms to the union include removing the ability to bargain collectively for benefits beyond salary, the inability to bargain for salaries higher than CPI, and the forced pamynet of salaries into unions.
And it's no surprise I disagree with Court Fool, but repealing healthcare is a mandate given the new House. Walking away from the bill in question is not the peoples' mandate. In fact, correcting the problem of unfunded liabilities is the mandate. It is a very different thing to use the rules you have ion palce to stall or amend a bill, than to simply take your ball and go home because you can't stop passage. If Senate Republicans had done this to stop the healthcare bill, there'd be no end to the caterwaling.