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any way I can get precision damage from scorching ray on all rays on same target? I am arcane trickster, and have 3 rays, and wonder if through greater invis or even flanking can each ray gain precision damage or always just the first?
any way I can get precision damage from scorching ray on all rays on same target? I am arcane trickster, and have 3 rays, and wonder if through greater invis or even flanking can each ray gain precision damage or always just the first?
Greater invisibility: yes
Flanking: no (ranged attack)
Sneak attack would only apply to the first ray, I believe. Unless you hit multiple targets, then they would each be susceptible to sneak attack.
Sneak attack would only apply to the first ray, I believe. Unless you hit multiple targets, then they would each be susceptible to sneak attack.
please show a rule on this. My argument is a greater invis'd archer could make 3 bow shots within 30 feet and they all would be sneaks, why you say, because each requires a separate attack roll. The only example where this is said not to be the case is vital strike and many shot, but only one attack roll is made here. this is the difference, each ray same target would all need a separate attack roll.
It is not that I don't believe you RD, I just need proof so I am prepared to discuss it with my DM.
Sneak attack would only apply to the first ray, I believe. Unless you hit multiple targets, then they would each be susceptible to sneak attack.please show a rule on this. My argument is a greater invis'd archer could make 3 bow shots within 30 feet and they all would be sneaks, why you say, because each requires a separate attack roll. The only example where this is said not to be the case is vital strike and many shot, but only one attack roll is made here. this is the difference, each ray same target would all need a separate attack roll.
It is not that I don't believe you RD, I just need proof so I am prepared to discuss it with my DM.
Sorry, I have no support. I was speaking from the heart (or gut, or memory, or whatever).
If my statement was irrefutable and I had rules support, I would not have used the words "I believe" in my post. What's more, I would have provided the rules support upfront.
If my statement was irrefutable and I had rules support, I would not have used the words "I believe" in my post. What's more, I would have provided the rules support upfront.
I appreciate your efforts, we have run into a few issues in my group with rule disputes and we want to be PF true and get away from the 3.5 rules we remember, and my DM feels the same way about he thinks you can't but none of us can find anything that refutes my definition and he is not excited about 27d6 on one target if all touch attacks hit. So I am trying to see if anyone can provide the proof in opposition or evidence that my interpretation is right.
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Bold is mine, I see nothing denoting a limit per round.
I'm pretty sure the 3.5 FAQ said you could only get precision damage on one ray, just like you would only get precision damage on one arrow during Manyshot.
Since Manyshot still works the same way in PFRPG, it stands to reason that rays would too. I can't remember seeing anything conclusive on that particular point though.
It is detailed in the 3.5 book Rules Compendium pg 42. The short answer is No. The Long answer is No, single actions that give multiple attacks cannot trigger sneak attack, many shot, and scorching ray are specifically mentioned. There is also an longer reply given in a sage advice/faq/internet flotation device I cannot recall at this time. Hope this helps.
It is detailed in the 3.5 book Rules Compendium pg 42. The short answer is No. The Long answer is No, single actions that give multiple attacks cannot trigger sneak attack, many shot, and scorching ray are specifically mentioned. There is also an longer reply given in a sage advice/faq/internet flotation device I cannot recall at this time. Hope this helps.
Technically, a full attack action IS a single action. Can archer rogues not get sneak attack on multiple arrow attacks in 3.5? ;P
You know what I meant and I hope your dog changes color for no good reason.
I hope your dog changes color for no good reason.
That actually did happen to my dog once. Went from black to dirty blond. Really weird stuff.
Clearly I am a witch!
It is detailed in the 3.5 book Rules Compendium pg 42. The short answer is No. The Long answer is No, single actions that give multiple attacks cannot trigger sneak attack, many shot, and scorching ray are specifically mentioned. There is also an longer reply given in a sage advice/faq/internet flotation device I cannot recall at this time. Hope this helps.
The only time sneak attack only occurs once is during volley attacks, which is what 3.5 manyshot was. A volley attack is when you make one roll that counts for several attacks. The book calls out a quickened scorching ray even though I don't agree with that either.
It is detailed in the 3.5 book Rules Compendium pg 42. The short answer is No. The Long answer is No, single actions that give multiple attacks cannot trigger sneak attack, many shot, and scorching ray are specifically mentioned. There is also an longer reply given in a sage advice/faq/internet flotation device I cannot recall at this time. Hope this helps.Technically, a full attack action IS a single action. Can archer rogues not get sneak attack on multiple arrow attacks in 3.5? ;P
OK....so dumb question but I post here for help, why am i talking about PFRPG yet getting 3.5 errata quoted at me. Our group is not looking backward at anything 3.5
OK....so dumb question but I post here for help, why am i talking about PFRPG yet getting 3.5 errata quoted at me. Our group is not looking backward at anything 3.5It is detailed in the 3.5 book Rules Compendium pg 42. The short answer is No. The Long answer is No, single actions that give multiple attacks cannot trigger sneak attack, many shot, and scorching ray are specifically mentioned. There is also an longer reply given in a sage advice/faq/internet flotation device I cannot recall at this time. Hope this helps.Technically, a full attack action IS a single action. Can archer rogues not get sneak attack on multiple arrow attacks in 3.5? ;P
PFRPG is backwards compatible, if the answer isn't in PFRPG, people usually look to 3.5 for answers.
Well are group is trying not to be hehe...
PF purists at heart I guess
Well are group is trying not to be hehe...
PF purists at heart I guess
At which point, I think the sneak attack description is just about all you got (see earlier post).
Well are group is trying not to be hehe...
PF purists at heart I guess
Since the words are most just copied and pasted the meanings are still the same so whether you wish to look at 3.5 or not the answers are normally there.
Sneak attack does apply to every roll though for scorching ray. That is a PF ruling if it matters.
Well are group is trying not to be hehe...
PF purists at heart I guessSince the words are most just copied and pasted the meanings are still the same so whether you wish to look at 3.5 or not the answers are normally there.
Sneak attack does apply to every roll though for scorching ray. That is a PF ruling if it matters.
thx wraithstrike
Sneak attack does apply to every roll though for scorching ray. That is a PF ruling if it matters.
Do you remember where that ruling was made?
Sneak attack would only apply to the first ray, I believe.
Back in the 3.0/5 days, it was considered a volley.
Skip Williams said: "With spell effects that allow you to make multiple attack rolls, such as the energy orb spells or the Split Ray
feat from Tome and Blood, you must treat the effect like a volley -- only the first attack can be a sneak attack."
PF has no official rule that I've read, and given that an arcane trickster, or any caster using sneak attack with a spell, should get the full benefit, I'd argue that sneak attack should be allowed on each separate attack. All your scorching rays add sneak attack damage when it applies. Your meteor swarm gets SA on each meteor. Otherwise, the trickster is a tragically flawed class.
I can't think of any class combos that would even care about that, or be overpowered for having it.
Rogues get sneak attack on each attack, when they can manage it. An AT 10 should get sneak attack on each of his magic missiles, whether he fires them at 1 or 5 targets. They have to be flatfooted, so the player has to be clever to make that happen.
Fair.
Sneak attack does apply to every roll though for scorching ray. That is a PF ruling if it matters.Do you remember where that ruling was made?
It is from the book.
The core rule is that any spell that requires an attack roll and does damage crits.
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”).
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
Manyshot which uses one attack roll for 2 arrows only allows for one arrow to do precision damage. This is in the 3.5 and PF versions, and supports the volley rules.
Now there is no real volley rule, but every time I have seen a case where you can make more than one attack with only one attack roll it has been ruled for that ability that precision damage only occurs once.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack
Special
Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.
Notice that one attack roll got you one crit in both cases.
Without a rule saying you can only benefit from precision attack once during separate rolls scorching ray is fair game.
There are no Volley rules in pathfinder so that would be a none issue to this discussion.
If I cast Haste on a Rogue and he attacks 3 times against a stunned opponent. He gets sneak attack on all three attacks.
If the same Rogue casts Scorching ray against the stunned opponent he would get sneak attack damage against the stunned opponent. The above quoted text about sneak attacks does not limit it to X number of attacks per round. It places no limit on the number of attacks that can be sneak attacks.
Basically it boils down to this.
1) Did you hit the target with an attack roll? If yes go to step 2
2) Is the target flanked (for melee) or denied it's dex bonus to AC. If yes go to step 3
3) Is target immune to sneak attack? If no go to step 4.
4) Apply Sneak attack damage.
If I rogue some how manages to get 18 attacks per round as long as the target meets the conditions for sneak attack (flanked/denied dex bonus to AC) then sneak attack damage applies.
The one thing that now has popped into my head is can a rogue sneak attack with a magic missile spell? No where in the sneak attack text does it say an attack roll has to be made, unless the above quoted text is incomplete. So would sneak attack damage apply on a magic missile spell against say a stunned opponent?
There are no official volley rules anywhere, which I stated above. The point was that every time I have seen a single attack used to do damage from more than one weapon there was a blurb stating that you only get to precision damage once, so other than that the normal attack rules which you have posted are used.
Just trying to clear up my intent with the mentioning of the volley rules. :)
The one thing that now has popped into my head is can a rogue sneak attack with a magic missile spell? No where in the sneak attack text does it say an attack roll has to be made, unless the above quoted text is incomplete. So would sneak attack damage apply on a magic missile spell against say a stunned opponent?
Once the AT hits 10th level, he can add sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage; magic missile, fireball, etc., as long as his target(s) is flat-footed.
Until then, only damage spells with an attack roll qualify as sneakable.