This is a new feat tree that introduces a variation of Forgotten Realms Spell Fire. Please tell me what you think.
Spell Fire Channeler
Requirement: Cha 13+
Benefit: You possess a pool of spell fire energy equal to your cha mod +1/2 your character level. This feat also grants the Spell Fire Heal and Spell Fire Ray abilities. Spell fire is considered a supernatural ability. You cannot spend more spell fire energy on a single ability than 1/2 your character level (minimum of one).
Spell Fire Heal: As a standard action, you can expend spell fire to restore hp with a touch. You restore 1d4 + your cha mod hp per point expended.
Spell Fire Ray: As a standard action, you can release a ray of all consuming spell fire. This ability has a 100 ft range, requires a ranged touch attack, and deals 1d4 + Cha mod damage to the target. This is considered pure magical energy and is not subject to energy resistance.
Spell fire is mildly disruptive to magic. A spell caster with this feat that attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC = to 10 + there current spell fire pool total, minimum DC 10) or lose the spell. A natural 1 always fails and a natural 20 always succeeds.
Spell Fire Barrier
Requirements: Spell fire Channeler, Cha 13+
Benefit: You gain the Spell Fire Barrier spell fire ability. You also increase you max spell fire pool by 1 point and increase the concentration DC (if any) by 1 point.
Spell Fire Barrier: You can expend spell fire energy to gain a deflection bonus to AC. This deflection bonus is equal to the number of spell fire energy spent and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your 1/2 class level + your cha mod.
Spell Fire Dispel
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Cha 13+
Benefit: You have learned to harness the disruptive abilities of spell fire, granting you the Spell Fire Dispel Ability.You also increase you max spell fire pool by 1 point and increase the concentration DC (if any) by 1 point.
Spell Fire Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the Spell Fire Dispel ability. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your cha mod+2 per point spent (minimum of 1 point)) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell.
Spell Fire Resistance
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Spell Fire Dispel, Cha 13+
Benefit: You gain spell resistance 11 + character level so long as you have at least 1 point in your spell fire pool. You also increase you max spell fire pool by 1 point and increase the concentration DC (if any) by 1 point.
Spell Fire Absorption
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Spell Fire Dispel, Spell Fire Resistance, Cha 15+
Benefit: You can attempt to absorb the magical energy of a spell that specifically targets you, such as charm person or disintegrate, but not fire ball or fog cloud. Any time such a spell fails to overcome your spell resistance granted by Spell Fire Resistance, you recover an amount of spell fire energy equal to the level of the spell. This cannot put you above your spell fire pool maximum.
You also increase you max spell fire pool by 1 point and increase the concentration DC (if any) by 1 point.
Spell Fire Illumination
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Cha 13+
Benefit: You gain the Spell Fire Light and Spell Fire Flash abilities. You also increase you max spell fire pool by 1 point and increase the concentration DC (if any) by 1 point.
Spell Fire Light: As long as you have at least 1 point in your spell fire pool, you can use Dancing Lights at will, this is still a supernatural ability.
Spell Fire Flash: You can create a 5 ft radius burst of spell fire at any point within 100 feet. Any creature within this area must make a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Cha mod). A failed save means they are blinded, while a successful save means they are only dazzled. The duration of the blindness or dazzled is equal to the number of points spent (minimum of one) + your Cha Mod.
Spell Fire Blast
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Cha 15+
Benefit: You have learned to harness the destructive capabilities of spell fire to new heights. You gain the Spell Fire Blast ability. You also increase you max spell fire pool by 1 point and increase the concentration DC (if any) by 1 point.
Spell Fire Blast: You release a blast of spell fire energy dealing 1d4 + cha mod damage per point spent. This blast takes the form of a 60 ft line, a 30 ft cone, or a 10 ft radius burst (with a range of 100 ft). A successful reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Cha mod) halves the damage. This is considered pure magical energy and is not subject to energy resistance.
Spell Fire Thamaturgist
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Cha 15+, Caster level 1+
Benefit: You can convert spell energy, either spell slots or prepared spells, into spell fire energy. You can sacrifice a spell slot or a prepared spell as a standard action and gain a number of spell fire pool points equal to the level of the spell or spell slot. This cannot put you above your spell fire pool maximum. You cannot sacrifice 0 level spells.
You also increase you max spell fire pool by 1 point and increase the concentration DC (if any) by 1 point.
Spell Fire Imbue
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Cha 15+, Caster level 1+
Benefit: You have learned to channel spell fire through your weapons. You gain the Spell Fire Imbue ability. You also increase you max spell fire pool by 1 point and increase the concentration DC (if any) by 1 point.
Spell Fire Imbue: You channel spell fire energy into one weapon you are holding, causing it to deal an additional 2 points of damage per point spent. This lasts for a number of rounds equal to half your level + your cha mod. The weapon only gains the additional damage if wielded by you.
I thought virtually the entire point of spellfire was that it ate up spell energy?
Consider the base feat being only the 'rod of absorbtion' style anti-spellcasting targetted at them type of thing, with only Cha Mod as max points. Keep the Spellfire Bolt/Ray paired with it as something to actually do with the points you take. Raise the cap by 2 for every other Spellfire feat you add to the chain.
Make spellfire healing it's own feat?
Another feat to raise the dice from d4 to d6 seems appropriate if people want to continue spending their feats on those abilities. Let them take that one as much as they like. Really dedicated characters can get all the way up to what, 4d6 a bolt with all 10 feats dedicated to this single feat? 4d8 for humans?
Still feels like a class ability of its own, or possibly the benefits of a prestige class. I like the 'cost of disruption' part.
Bump for comments...
Spell Fire Channeler
Requirement: Cha 13+
Benefit: You possess a pool of spell fire energy equal to your cha mod +1/2 your character level.Is this... per day?
I didn't see any mention of recovery, regeneration (or absorbing).
It is per day, and you can absorb with the spell fire absorption feat.
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It's nice? Thanks for writing it up I guess?
I've never really seen the need for something like this, personally.
It's really clever, I'm not disputing that. The trilogy is great, as well. I think it makes a lot of sense that, in a world filled with magic, some people would develop "natural" defenses, either the ability to absorb and feed off of it or greatly improved resistances to it.
That said, I've never really felt that it fit well with D&D and pathfinder. The game isn't low magic by any stretch of the word, but it's not high magic either, at least not on the Prime Material planes.
It would fit really well in a setting/system with floating rocks, random reverse gravity fields, talking animals, objects that spontaneously developed sentience and mobility, and so on. I'd like to play in such a system.
But that's not D&D/pathfinder.
Several things led to the creation of this. Two in particular are things I saw a lot of on the threads, "Why aren't fighters allowed to have nice things?" and "Charisma is useless and a lot of people dump it."
I like it. Gonna tweak it, but consider it stolen.
I like it. Gonna tweak it, but consider it stolen.
i too am going to tweak this but i like where you started this out. thanks. now that its not BROKEN maybe a gm will actually let me take this.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I really like the idea of spellfire and I feel it has never been done right. I like your attempt, but you have some balance issues as I see it (and after doing a lil maths). Many of your abilities grant more power than a normal feat and frankly I see alot of players taking them just to get the Spellfire Resistance. You neglect to specify if the abilities are Ex, Sp, or Su. I also don't like how all the feats hinge on the Cha modifier and add more spellfire points, reminiscent of something from 3.0/5 that was broken...
Here are the changes I would make to balance:
Make spellfire (Su). And make most of the abilities a standard action to activate.
Spell Fire Channeler Good requirements and I like how the ability seems to replicate the monk ki pool. Granting two abilities adds a little too much power. I would limit to just the ray and make the damage 1d3. Create a new feat for healing and limit the amount healed to just your Cha modifier per point spent. The penalty for casting a spell is harsh. Maybe make it a Spellcraft DC = 10 + 2 times the level of spell being cast + number of spellfire feats. There is no such thing as auto fail/pass skill checks.
Spell Fire Barrier You need to clarify the action needed to activate the ability. I would limit this to rounds = Cha modifier.
Spell Fire Dispel I would have the ability read: This ability is activated as a standard action and works as dispel magic except you may not counterspell and the dispel check 1d20 + number of spell fire feats + 2 per spellfire point spent.
Spell Fire Resistance 11 + is a lil excessive. Maybe 6 + and if you take a second time it increases to 11 +.
Spell Fire Absorption Adding more points to the pool via this mechanic is one of the ideas that often makes spellfire too powerful. You are not only stopping a spell effect, but gaining more spellfire points. I think a spellfire point should instead be used to activate this ability and have the character gain HP equal to the spell level.
Spell Fire Illumination Spell Fire Light is cool. For Spell Fire Flash, make it one point to activate and have the effect last a number of rounds equal to spellfire feats.
Spell Fire Blast Adding 1d4 damage per point spent + Cha modifer is better balanced.
Spell Fire Thamaturgist Not sure I like this one. I would limit the amount of spellfire points that could be gained per day equal to your Cha modifier, if I allowed it at all.
Spell Fire Imbue You are adding too much damage/duration. If you activated as a swift action and added 2 damage for the next attack, it would be better.
I would add a feat to allow healing like I mentioned above. And an Extra Spellfire feat that adds 2 spellfire points to your pool, but does not count as a spellfire feat itself.
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The feats as you had them would be far too abuse-able. Not only does each one add 1 point to the pool, but increases the concentration DC. Adding points from absorbing spells and casting spells are too open to abuse as well. I would create a Sorcerer and take all these feats. Not only would I be a stronger character than the others, I would almost never run out of spellfire points in a day. Especially if I was fighting spellcasters. And I would be immune to targeted spells and be able to boost my AC, damage, and heal myself. Who cares about my Sorcerer spellcasting when I am gaining bloodline powers and feats along with all the spellfire abilities.
...Stuff...
One: I specified that spell fire is Supernatural in the Spell Fire Channeler feat, this was intended to mean ALL spell fire abilities.
Two: Spell Resistance can harm just as much as it can help, more so even. You have to take a standard action to lower it every time an ally casts a spell on you or risk blocking the spell.
Three: The reliance on charisma is a major aspect of this feature. I was trying to make it so people would want to dump charisma less. Also, this gives fighter, and combat types in general, something they can do that spellcasters would rather not, without say spellcasters can't take this at all.
As written, A sorcerer that relied completely on spell fire would be weaker than a standard sorcerer.
Why would any non-spellcaster not jump at the "Spell Fire Channeler" feat? Even if they dumped Charisma? A free heal and 100' range attack in a single feat, even if it's only d4? And since the idea is to encourage not dumping the Charisma, total success accomplished, because what non-spellcaster that would take this (all of them) wouldn't pump their Charisma up a bit? And without some sort of time limitation, this non-spellcaster can just cast and recast and recast that healing until everyone in the party is at maximum health between battles.
I think it just starts out too powerful with the initial feat. It needs something to balance it a bit either by, as Thomas said, using only Charisma (no dice) for the attack/heal, and a limit to times per day (and even that is questionably enough), or by adding in a huge flaw to the character, such as a 50% SpellResistance against all spells that would be beneficial for the character such as Healing spells and spell-like abilities (and still have a limit to the number of times per day).
Why would any non-spellcaster not jump at the "Spell Fire Channeler" feat? Even if they dumped Charisma? A free heal and 100' range attack in a single feat, even if it's only d4? And since the idea is to encourage not dumping the Charisma, total success accomplished, because what non-spellcaster that would take this (all of them) wouldn't pump their Charisma up a bit? And without some sort of time limitation, this non-spellcaster can just cast and recast and recast that healing until everyone in the party is at maximum health between battles.
I think it just starts out too powerful with the initial feat. It needs something to balance it a bit either by, as Thomas said, using only Charisma (no dice) for the attack/heal, and a limit to times per day (and even that is questionably enough), or by adding in a huge flaw to the character, such as a 50% SpellResistance against all spells that would be beneficial for the character such as Healing spells and spell-like abilities (and still have a limit to the number of times per day).
You only have 1/2 your level + cha mod in points per day, you couldn't heal the party up to full between every encounter. A first level character could not have more than 5 points of spell fire per day. At 20th level the max you could have (not including ways to replenish spell fire) could only have 32 points of spell fire. Not to mention that healing with spell fire is less effective than than healing with spells.
Spell Resistance applies to ALL spells cast against you, unless you spend a standard action to suppress it for the round.
Ok, misunderstood how the point spending was going on. It's still very powerful for a feat. Feats don't grant power, they give a very minor boost to something you already have.
To better explain, let's look at Toughness. +3 HP. Your feat is at least 5 times more powerful than that in the Heal ray alone (at 'least' because unlike Toughness, you can heal others). And you get to stack on a 100' ranged attack that's "free", and about the same damage as the Sorcerer's (d4 vs d6) which is only Close Range, about 1/4th the range.
I don't think anyone is saying that the Feat is drastically game-changing (though even that limited amount of healing is pretty awesome), but in comparison to other Feats, it's a bit over the top in power. It's just handing out power to whomever, and what non-healer isn't gonna want some free healing?
As for Spell Resistance, that's a separate feat, no? I was speaking of only the first feat suggesting that Spell Resistance to beneficial spells might balance it. (Ie: if they can heal themselves, then that's the only type of healing they can get)
Feats do grant new powers (look at acrane talent, for example). The ranged attack is by no definition "free". You have to spend a feat to get it, you have to spend your limited points (see above for an idea of how many you would have) to activate it.
As to what non-healer isn't gonna want "free" healing? The ones who don't have a feat to give up, or the stat points to support a 13 cha on top of everything else. The healing offered is, at best, half as strong as a cure spell. And a first level character with a 20 cha and another spell fire feat would only have 6 points. The equivalence of 3-4 cure spells, or 2 channel energies. This feat does not replace a healer, or a ranged combatant. And no combat class can afford a 20 cha at first level, not even a paladin.
Also, I misunderstood what you meant about the spell resistance. I was thinking about making it so that they had to make a save against beneficial effects, but I am not convinced the feat needs a nerf yet.
EDIT: With the number of people suggesting only one benefit at first level, I will strongly consider it. I've learned to take what one person says with a grain of salt, but if enough people say so, there might be something to it.
Requirement should be either
Bones god of magic
Or
Otherwise worthless bar maid
That could limit some of the potential abuse.
Seriously, though, I like it, it's how I plan om handling psionics.
I would make someone choose power with thw first feat, thougj. Attack OR ray. And I would up the dice to d6, it seems to be the standard
This gave me a new idea.
Also, I've noticed a slight mistake in my spell fire channeler feat...
I really think which power you get should be player's choice. Heal OR ray.
Also:
"Spell Fire Thamaturgist
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Cha 15 +, Caster level 1 +
Benefit : You can convert spell energy, either spell slots or
prepared spells, into spell fire energy. You can sacrifice a spell
slot or a prepared spell as a standard action and gain a number
of spell fire pool points equal to the level of the spell or spell
slot. This cannot put you above your spell fire pool maximum .
You cannot sacrifice 0 level spells."Maybe 1/2 spell level, minimum 1 point? Same with absorbtion.
And while on the subject of absorbtion, what happens if you are hit with one magic missile out of three? Or 2 out of 3 scorching rays?
If/when I rewrite the feat, I will give the players the choice of heal or ray, and put in a new feat to pick up the other. You must be the sole target of the spell to absorb. Easiest way to rule it.
Echoing many posters here, but here goes:
Many references made to "class level." If these are going to be feats and not class features, it should probably just say "level" or "total class levels."
100 feet seems like an arbitrary range. Might be better to have a range given in terms of character level, charisma modifier, or even the number of Spell Fire feats one has.
One could add a "subtype" to the feats, like [combat] feats have. You could then specify that for each [spell fire] feat you have, add 1 to your maximum spell fire pool and 1 to the concentration DC required to cast spells, instead of listing it on each feat. You could also give the feats as bonus feats specifically to homebrewed classes or prestige classes.
For the specific feats:
Spell Fire Channeler: I would go with choosing either Ray or Heal when taking the feat. They each seem thematic and useful enough on their own to help define the character. Having the option of both without further investment seems like it would "dilute" the character's concept just for the sake of power.
Spell Fire Barrier: I might add some sort of description of visual effects, or a way that characters might identify what's going on (do you use Spellcraft? Knowledge Arcana? Knowledge Religion?). Also seems like it should up the casting DC even further when they go all "shields up!"
Spell Fire Dispel: Seems like there should be a level limit inherent in the requirements. Early access to any form of magic dispelling can be a pain, but maybe that's just me.
Spell Fire Resistance: If this is going to be a semi-passive ability, it would probably be better to make it a weak spell resistance normally and give some sort of option to "flare" it up. Maybe making it 4 + character level, or 8 + 1/2 character level normally, but allowing them to spend 1 or more points to boost the score to something more impressive during a hard fight. Passive abilities are often more boring than ones that have some active component to them.
Spell Fire Absorption: Not sure where Spell Fire Dispel comes into play as a prerequisite, but no matter. Seems good for the most part, though a re-wording of eligible spells for absorbing might be in order (if a Magic Missile spell has bolts that hit you and the person 10 feet from you, could you absorb it? It does specifically target you. What about Scorching Ray, if all but one ray is aimed at you? What if you were the secondary target of a Bouncing Spell?)
Spell Fire Illumination: The wording of the feat seems a little odd, granting you use of a spell through manipulating magic disrupting energies. I understand what you're trying to do, just saying it "feels" out of place. The burst function feels a little powerful, causing a condition regardless of save, though I know Dazzling is not that bad.
Spell Fire Blast: The ability to add your Charsima modifier to the damage for each point spent can make this ability meaner than many Evocation spells, though it does eat your point reserve quick. They may not have lasting endurance, but being able to "spike" irresistible damage can be a pain.
Spell Fire Thaumaturgist: Seems odd and out of place, but I never read the books this is from, so that's probably why. Might be better off in some sort of prestige class or alternate class ability than as a feat (interesting idea: Spell Fire sorcerer bloodline?)
Spell Fire Imbue: This seems like it should interfere with an enchanted weapon's abilities temporarily, if Spell Fire is so disruptive to organized magical energy. Perhaps lowering its enchantment by 1 point per point spent imbuing it, while specifying that it still overcomes DR Magic. Also don't get why it requires a caster level of 1+, but maybe that's something else that was in the series I've never read. This seems like it would really help martial characters, but if it's going to be specific to casters, they should be required to know some method of imbuing weaponry to begin with (such as knowing the Magic Weapon spell or having Craft Magic Arms and Armor).
Edit: Ninja'd by the OP. I took too long.
@Parka: I do not see any reference to class level, and if there is one, it should be character level.
They should have a spell fire subtype, that was an omission.
Spell Fire Absorption requires Spell Fire Dispel because Spell Fire Resistance requires it.
Good thoughts all around, thank you for the post.
@Ironicdisaster: That would be an are effect dispel (Spell Fire Dispel).
I almost have the new version of the Spell Fire feat tree up, with a prestige class to boot.
Missed the reference to Dispel in Spell Fire Resistance. Seems like a bit of a feat tax to me, but that's probably a good thing for a potential source of SR for martial characters. If you do take my advice on hiking up the level in Dispel, though, it might be good to de-couple Resistance from it. It's not as if Dispel isn't a tempting enough ability for a martial character as it is, and like you said, SR can be as much of a pain in the butt for a martial character as it is a blessing.
The reference to "class level" is in Spell Fire Barrier. You're pretty thorough about referencing "character level" elsewhere, but my eyes glossed over them much like people not noticing a repeating "the" over the course of two lines of text.
@Ironicdisaster: That would be an are effect dispel (Spell Fire Dispel).
I get what you are saying (dispel the area effect spell using Spell Fire Dispel), but this makes it sound like you can use the "area dispel" option of Dispel Magic using Spell Fire Dispel. If that's what you meant, I didn't see that in the feat (which seemed to say one target only).
Can't wait to see the new version of the tree. This seems like it could be highly useful in the next setting I want to run. Have you considered making it into a google doc?
Thought: Using Spell Fire Dispel to counteract a Fireball, as an example, would require a readied action. If one were allowed to use Spell Fire Resistance/Absorption (or some higher-level feat) to burn their spell fire points to counteract a spell affecting them as some sort of reflex (immediate action or the like), then this could allow a martial character to have a dramatic moment where they save the party from an otherwise devastating attack without having to know it's coming in advance. It wouldn't be suitable to lower the action requirement on Spell Fire Dispel to allow this, but say an expansion of Resistance or Absorption (for extra feat tax) might be suitable. As Ironicdisaster pointed out, it wouldn't be good to gain back points from the action- one might have to burn points equal to the spell level or spell level + 1, but it would definitely be an ability that would see selection some time.
Spell Fire Channeler
Requirement: Cha 13+
Benefit: You possess a pool of spell fire energy equal to your cha mod +1/4 your character level. The spell fire pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.This feat also grants either the Spell Fire Heal or Spell Fire Ray abilities. Spell fire is considered a supernatural ability. You cannot spend more spell fire energy on a single ability than 1/2 your character level (minimum of one).
Spell fire is mildly disruptive to magic. A spell caster with this feat that attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC = to 10 + there current spell fire pool total, minimum DC 10) or lose the spell. A natural 1 always fails and a natural 20 always succeeds. While you have at least 1 point in you pool, you cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies.
While you have at least one point of spell fire, you possess a magical aura. Use your current number of points as your caster level (as if you were a magic item) to determine your aura strength. See Detect Magic.
Special: For every [spell fire] feat you possess, you gain one additional spell fire point, and the base concentration DC increases by one (for example, if you have 2 [spell fire] feats, the concentration checks become 12 + there current spell fire pool total, minimum DC 12).
Improved Spell Fire Channeler [Spell Fire]
Requirements: Spell fire Channeler, Cha 13+
Benefit: You spell Fire points are now equal to 1/2 your character level + your charisma modifier. You also gain the ability (Spell Fire Heal or Spell Fire Ray) that you did not gain with spell fire channeler.
Spell Fire Barrier [Spell Fire]
You transform your spell fire into a silvery arua of defensive flame around you
Requirements: Spell fire Channeler, Cha 13+
Benefit: You gain the Spell Fire Barrier spell fire ability.
Spell Fire Dispel [Spell Fire]
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Cha 13+, Spellcraft 5 ranks
Benefit: You have learned to harness the disruptive abilities of spell fire, granting you the Spell Fire Dispel Ability.
You can also use spell fire dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your dispel check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect.
Spell Fire Resistance [Spell Fire]
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Spell Fire Dispel, Cha 13+
Benefit: You gain spell resistance 11 + character level so long as you have at least 1 point in your spell fire pool. You may not willingly lower this spell resistance.
Spell Fire Absorption [Spell Fire]
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Spell Fire Dispel, Spell Fire Resistance, Cha 15+
Benefit: You can attempt to absorb the magical energy of a spell that specifically targets you, such as charm person or disintegrate, but not fire ball or fog cloud. Any time such a spell fails to overcome your spell resistance granted by Spell Fire Resistance, you recover an amount of spell fire energy equal to 1/2 the level of the spell(Minimum of 1). This cannot put you above your spell fire pool maximum. You cannot absorb 0 level spells.
Spell Fire Illumination [Spell Fire]
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Cha 13+
Benefit: You gain the Spell Fire Light and Spell Fire Flash abilities.
Spell Fire Blast [Spell Fire]
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Cha 15+, Spell Fire Ray
Benefit: You have learned to harness the destructive capabilities of spell fire to new heights. You gain the Spell Fire Blast ability.
Spell Fire Thamaturgist [Spell Fire]
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Cha 15+, Caster level 1+
Benefit: You can convert spell energy, either spell slots or prepared spells, into spell fire energy. You can sacrifice a spell slot or a prepared spell as a standard action and gain a number of spell fire pool points equal to 1/2 the level of the spell or spell slot (minimum of 1). This cannot put you above your spell fire pool maximum. You cannot sacrifice 0 level spells.
Spell Fire Imbue [Spell Fire]
Requirements: Spell Fire Channeler, Cha 15+, Base Attack Bonus +1, Ability to use Spell Fire Ray
Benefit: You have learned to channel spell fire through your weapons. You gain the Spell Fire Imbue ability.
Spell Fire Master
Requirements:
Feats:Spell Fire Channeler, Improved Spell Fire Channeler
Skill: Knowledge (Arcana) 5 ranks
HD: d8
BAB: 3/4
Saves: Good Fort, Poor Ref, Good Will
Class Skills: Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int)
Skill Points Per Level: 2 + Int mod
level=special
1=Spell Fire Addiction, Bonus Spell Fire Feat
2=Detect Magic
3=Bonus Spell Fire Feat
4=Arcane Sight
5=Bonus Spell Fire Feat, Spell Fire Mastery
Spell Fire Addiction: The spell fire channeler becomes so used to the energy of spell fire that it becomes difficult to exist without it. Whenever a spell fire master has no spell fire points or is cut off from spell fire (Such as being in an anti magic field) he must make hourly fortitude saves (DC = 1/2 max spell fire pool) or become fatigued until he regains at least 1 point of spell fire. 2 successful saves removes the addiction until he rests and regains his spell fire energy.
Bonus Spell Fire Feat: You may select any one spell fire feat that you meet the requirements for.
Detect Magic (Su): You have become so attuned to the raw magical energies that you can see them. So long as you have at least 1 point of spell fire in your pool, you constantly detect magic, as the spell, receiving the 1st round of information automatically.
Arcane Sight (Su): At 4th level, your detect magic ability improves to Arcane Sight.
Spell Fire Mastery (Su): Your Spell Fire pool is now equal to your character level + your charisma modifier. The Damage dealt by your Spell Fire Ray and Spell Fire Blast improves to 1d6 per point spent + your charisma mod. The healing provided by your spell fire heal improves to 1d6 per point spent + your charisma mod.
Ok, gonna try to be clearer... because to me this still seems a bit too powerful. I totally get what/why you want this, and I think it's a fantabulous idea to add Spellfire to a game, but it's still too much, despite breaking the healing/ray out.
Let's begin by looking at Arcane Talent, since you brought it up. It grants a single level 0 spell, 3x a day.
Level 0 spell = 1d3 damage at only Close Range, or 1 temporary hp.
This feat provides 1d4+Cha Mod damage at 100', or 1d4+Cha Mod healing, for what I'm willing to concede might average 3x a day (since if you're gonna buy up to Cha 13 for this, you'll take that 13 to 14); but much closer to a level 1 than a level 0.
My recommendation on Spell Fire Channeler is to change the Ray so that you can Save vs it for 0 damage, and the Healing so it's Cha Mod only, no 1d4 in it. Or, as I said before, some sort of penalty to the person buying the feat.
Ok, gonna try to be clearer... because to me this still seems a bit too powerful. I totally get what/why you want this, and I think it's a fantabulous idea to add Spellfire to a game, but it's still too much, despite breaking the healing/ray out.
Let's begin by looking at Arcane Talent, since you brought it up. It grants a single level 0 spell, 3x a day.
Level 0 spell = 1d3 damage at only Close Range, or 1 temporary hp.
This feat provides 1d4+Cha Mod damage at 100', or 1d4+Cha Mod healing, for what I'm willing to concede might average 3x a day (since if you're gonna buy up to Cha 13 for this, you'll take that 13 to 14); but much closer to a level 1 than a level 0.
My recommendation on Spell Fire Channeler is to change the Ray so that you can Save vs it for 0 damage, and the Healing so it's Cha Mod only, no 1d4 in it. Or, as I said before, some sort of penalty to the person buying the feat.
OK, I'm going to be clearer about this. You are SERIOUSLY limited in the number of times you can use this per day. Requiring both an attack roll and save for ray will make it unplayable.
Furthermore, you did not read my entire feat. "While you have at least 1 point in your pool, you cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies."Also, a 13 cha at level 1 will give you one use, a 14 cha at level 1 will give you 2 uses. Spell fire channeler, improved spell fire channeler, and a 14 cha at level 4 will give you 4 uses.
You are trying to nerf it too much. Remember when we were working on your class? How weak it was when you first submitted it and how long it took me to convince you to increased the power, which we did by at least 3 times? With this feat tree, you are slipping back into that first submission state of mind..
OK, I'm going to be clearer about this. You are SERIOUSLY limited in the number of times you can use this per day. Requiring both an attack roll and save for ray will make it unplayable.
Furthermore, you did not read my entire feat. "While you have at least 1 point in your pool, you cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies."
Also, a 13 cha at level 1 will give you one use, a 14 cha at level 1 will give you 2 uses. Spell fire channeler, improved spell fire channeler, and a 14 cha at level 4 will give you 4 uses.
You are trying to nerf it too much. Remember when we were working on your class? How weak it was when you first submitted it and how long it took me to convince you to increased the power, which we did by at least 3 times? With this feat tree, you are slipping back into that first submission state of mind..
Ok, seriously limited in the number of times, is still around 3 times (with this feat alone), no? Making it about 3x more powerful than Arcane Talent, yes? Since these spells are way more powerful than 0th level?
And yes, the not-a-willing-target is a good balancer, I'm just not feeling it's enough.
And seriously, do you think we wouldn't take this feat if you downplayed the healing/attack of it? I mean, I doubt for one that anyone would take it for the attack to begin with, I'm betting pretty much everyone takes the healing half. We take this feat because it, even at healing only Cha Mod, 2 times a day, and all it's children-feats are way better than anything we'd take otherwise.
These feats are all awesome (well, except maybe the light one, but even that's pretty nifty). I can't imagine not taking them were they canon-feats. And -that- is why I think they're a bit over the top.
And seriously, do you think we wouldn't take this feat if you downplayed the healing/attack of it? I mean, I doubt for one that anyone would take it for the attack to begin with, I'm betting pretty much everyone takes the healing half. We take this feat because it, even at healing only Cha Mod, 2 times a day, and all it's children-feats are way better than anything we'd take otherwise.
These feats are all awesome (well, except maybe the light one, but even that's pretty nifty). I can't imagine not taking them were they canon-feats. And -that- is why I think they're a bit over the top.
That may be part of the problem. At first blush, they look like really good abilities. Kind of like Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting or Sneak Attack.
Then you realize- if you're on a point-buy system for attributes, you're splitting your limited resources to do two things at once. This is a problem.
Additionally, I don't think you realize how irritating it would be to have allies' spells fizzle on you all the time. If you ever thought that a cleric's spell complement was low given the amount of healing they have to do, imagine what it's like when spells start failing to heal the person with high HP. If you've ever done damage comparisons between two classes, you've probably included the effects of Haste or Magic Weapon in your analysis. Now imagine you've effectively lost a round of combat because the Haste didn't take effect on the first casting, so two characters (the fighter and the caster) are still not ready, and the caster just did something that was worse than nothing. Also think that this does not just apply to spells the party casts, but also to magic item effects. Your "boots of speed" might have to be activated a few times before you actually start getting the benefits. The "scabbard of keen edges" might lose a few of its 3 uses a day, since your sword counts as an attended object and therefore saves like you do. Potions become more of a waste than they already are.
Sure, as a fighter it's nice having another chance for Charm Person or Dominate Person to fail, but it's probably not worth losing the reliability of Haste and other spells you rely on to do what you do best: deal damage.
As far as comparing the healing aspect of the feat to other feats, someone brought up Toughness. At first blush, this seems like a good comparison; with a Charisma mod of 2 at level 1, you get 2d4 + 4 points of healing, versus 3 hit points. A lot more milage, it looks like. However, this only applies if you get the time to heal. Spell Fire Channeller does not increase your maximum hit points, so it provides no benefit until you can actually afford to take a standard action to use it. No Fighter worth his salt is going to pass up an opportunity to attack the foe just to heal himself of less damage than his attack is going to prevent-that's the healer's job. It also provides no benefit against high-damage hits that would knock you unconscious; Toughness does. Toughness also lets you make better use of other sources of healing by giving you a larger reservoir at once; Spell Fire Channeller actively hinders your ability to heal through other means.
Perhaps, in a low-magic game, or a low-power game, where martial characters don't rely on magic spells or non-constant items to do what they need to, Spell Fire Channeller makes them even more lone-wolfish than they would be. But as the feats stand, I think they probably migrated from being "neat things for martial characters to have" to "trap feats like Weapon Finesse that effective characters won't take."
That may be part of the problem. At first blush, they look like really good abilities. Kind of like Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting or Sneak Attack. ...
Good points all... Admittedly, I'm thinking like a Rogue (who rarely even gets Cleric healing), not Fighter, but I have to agree. It seems balanced when you can't depend on others to heal you, which drops that level 1 to level 0 pretty easily making it on par with Arcane Talent or Toughness.
I'm kinda thinking that maybe this just looks so juicy because I play a Rogue, and not because it's unbalanced.
I'm kinda thinking that maybe this just looks so juicy because I play a Rogue, and not because it's unbalanced.
The rogue does have it a little better, as their roles are a little more robust. They also focus more heavily on skill usage than combat most of the time. Even considering that, there can be problems.
Minor and Major Magic get hosed by Spell Fire at least once, but possibly up to three times. Though they are technically spell-like abilities and not spells, it could easily be argued that they still need concentration checks due to the nature of Spell Fire. Combine that with the fact that the most often taken Major Magic I've seen is to affect yourself instead of other people, and you've got two or three opportunities to fail (the saving throw you can't handwave and possibly SR if you took it). Those two abilities were one of my favorite additions to the Rogue class, and Spell Fire makes them pretty much useless unless you drain your points first.
I haven't seen too many rogues in my games, but they still like magic items to help them do their thing. Sneaky? Hope you didn't care about being Invisible all the time. Charismatic? Hope you weren't counting on Glibness, or even Eagle's Splendor. Like knifing people? Again, see the problems from the Fighter's perspective; things go double for you, with low HP, lower to-hit and a need for better defenses. Need to make a quick getaway? You can't rely on items to increase your speed, let you teleport, or allow you to fly unless it's a critter you plan to ride.
There are ways around it, but I guess what I'm getting at is that no matter your class, needing to worry about whether or not spells will affect you at any given time is going to change how you play, very much.
I like the idea, and I'll probably make a tree for my home games, but the direction it has gone now is not where I like, I think.
I modified based on the reactions I got, and will continue to hone it based on further feedback.
Never even considered taking either of those... I'm a Ledge Walking, Fast Stealth type of RogueI'm kinda thinking that maybe this just looks so juicy because I play a Rogue, and not because it's unbalanced.Minor and Major Magic get hosed by Spell Fire at least once, but possibly up to three times. Though they are technically spell-like abilities and not spells, it could easily be argued that they still need concentration checks due to the nature of Spell Fire. Combine that with the fact that the most often taken Major Magic I've seen is to affect yourself instead of other people, and you've got two or three opportunities to fail (the saving throw you can't handwave and possibly SR if you took it). Those two abilities were one of my favorite additions to the Rogue class, and Spell Fire makes them pretty much useless unless you drain your points first.
I haven't seen too many rogues in my games, but they still like magic items to help them do their thing. Sneaky? Hope you didn't care about being Invisible all the time. Charismatic? Hope you weren't counting on Glibness, or even Eagle's Splendor. Like knifing people? Again, see the problems from the Fighter's perspective; things go double for you, with low HP, lower to-hit and a need for better defenses. Need to make a quick getaway? You can't rely on items to increase your speed, let you teleport, or allow you to fly unless it's a critter you plan to ride.
So, Spellfire would negate Magic Items? My Ring of Telekinesis and my Wings of Flying? I didn't see anything about items... (if that's intended, maybe the description should clarify it a bit more for newbs like me which easily miss the A to B to C that got to D of rules)
Wings of flying is a spell cast on yourself (fly), saving throw if you have spell fire points. Telekinesis wouldn't be affected. Any item that casts a spell on you that allows a save has the potential to fail.
Wings of flying is a spell cast on yourself (fly), saving throw if you have spell fire points. Telekinesis wouldn't be affected. Any item that casts a spell on you that allows a save has the potential to fail.
Yes, sorry about not being clearer in my understanding. Constant-on magic items (like Cloak of Resistance) wouldn't be affected. Weapons and armor wouldn't be affected. Triggered magic items you use on others (like the Web ability of a Cloak of Arachnida) wouldn't be affected. However, magic items you trigger that affect you (such as my earlier Boots of Speed reference, or using UMD on a Wand of Invisibility to affect yourself) count as casting a spell on you, thus the need to make a saving throw against them. Potions are probably the hardest-hit, and are already sort of considered a "sub-optimal" choice for their price compared to a single use of a wand.
I would submit that if a constant failure chance for magic be linked to Spell Fire, it should be based on the number of Spell Fire points the character currently has, not on their own saving throws. As it is, Spell Fire is simply confusing the character's metaphysical defenses with regards to what magic is harmful; it seemed like the effect you were going for was that the presence of Spell Fire itself was disrupting the magic. In essence, a Dwarf Spell Fire Paladin would have a lot more trouble than a Human Spell Fire Fighter, even with identical attributes.
For that matter... is Spell Fire intended to be just as harmful to Divine magic as it is to Arcane? I'm not familiar at all with the source material. It may just be the metaphysics I'm used to seem like it shouldn't be, but like I said, I'm a blank slate.
The original spell fire was raw magical energy that didn't disrupt magic,it could absorb magic and drain magic items, and the resulting energy could be used to heal, hurt, etc. My spell fire is raw magical energy (neither arcane nor divine) and it's presence interfered with structured magic (spell casting) hence the concentration checks. The "save vs all spells as long as you have a point of spell fire" was added in to appease those that said it was too powerful. I was not completely convinced, but it is easy enough to change it and change back this early on, so I threw that in to see what kind of reactions I would get.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As Sphynx pointed out, these feats are still more powerful than other feats. Adding points which each feat lends towards making this more broken. With any other ability like channeling, ki, rage, and etc you have to take a separate feat to add just a few more points/uses. Increasing the DC is not a good enough compensation.
My biggest complaint was and still is the feats that allow you to add more points to the pool.
Spellfire Barrier still lasts too long.
Spellfire Resistance, still don't like how powerful this is. This is more of a class ability than a feat. Much too good for a feat.
Maybe this is all being done the wrong way... While I'm definitely in no position to suggest a complete revamp, I got to thinking that Spellfire is almost racial in nature. What if they weren't feats, but instead sub-racial? -2 levels, and get SpellFire the way it should be, with spells doing less damage to you, you drawing in spellfire from them, and able to perform certain tasks ONLY if you've drawn in enough spellfire to accomplish it...?
As a racial thing, you'd get a lot more leeway, and could write your own mechanics about how a sub-species can exist for every playable race. Like adding a "Vampire" sub-race to all the races...
As Sphynx pointed out, these feats are still more powerful than other feats. Adding points which each feat lends towards making this more broken.
I don't see how they are "more powerful" than other feats. I just did a comparison between the Healing aspect of Spell Fire Channeller and Toughness, and Toughness seemed better for the most part. I'll grant that they do something that no other feat does, give you supernatural abilities, but I don't see them being any more powerful for it.
With any other ability like channeling, ki, rage, and etc you have to take a separate feat to add just a few more points/uses. Increasing the DC is not a good enough compensation.
Adding more points for each feat seems to bring it up to par with other 3.5 feats that weren't really broken; the Aberrant feats or the Luck feats for example, which were really only worthwhile if you took a lot of them. None of the abilities you mentioned come with a drawback- they don't keep you from doing anything, and don't use up any character resources to have (feat slots for Spell Fire). Rage and Bardic Music get more rounds per day every character level. Ki grows at the same rate as Spell Fire, but has four potential uses right when you get it, each better than any use of Spell Fire unless you've spent all of your attribute point-buy in Charisma. And you get an even wider variety of uses for Ki as you take more Monk levels (something you'd want to do already) for no additional charge. Spell Fire charges you a feat for each extra type of use, and penalizes you further if you're a spellcaster. Lay On Hands and Channel get more effective as you grow in levels, again "charging" you nothing to do so and have no drawbacks inherent in having them available. Spell Fire is not in the same league as any of those, and probably isn't meant to be.
Spellfire Barrier still lasts too long.
If I didn't last multiple turns, it would be quite useless. Since it doesn't specify what type of action it takes to activate, it defaults to a standard action, preventing you from attacking or taking any other major useful actions that turn (and with the concentration problem Spell Fire presents, I'll assume you aren't quickening spells). Taking a standard action to gain a bonus to AC for one turn, even a deflection bonus, is very rarely a good move. Should it last Charisma Modifier in rounds instead of 1/2 your Level + your Charisma Mod? Maybe, but the difference would rarely be an issue, since it seems most combats are over in 4 rounds or less. And again, if your Charisma Mod is simply +1, Barrier becomes solidly useless.
Spellfire Resistance, still don't like how powerful this is. This is more of a class ability than a feat. Much too good for a feat.
Since you can't voluntarily lower it, and the value is such that most every spellcaster that is a threat has at least a 50% chance to bypass it, I don't see how it's more of a benefit than a liability. Sure, it does something normally only spells or class abilities do, but more powerful than a feat?
I'm guessing your definition of powerful is different than mine. Powerful, to me, means that the character is unquestionably more effective for having taken it. Spellfire Resistance, to me, hinders your character more than it helps, no matter what class you are. It duplicates the effect of a magic item or spell, and does so worse than either in that you can't turn it off without it being off for the rest of the day.
If your argument had been that feats shouldn't duplicate magic items or spells, I'd be more inclined to agree with you... simply saying it's too powerful for a feat, I just don't understand how you can reach that conclusion. You spend three feat slots to get it, which means you're either a 3rd level human with no other feats (including ones considered basic neccessities, like Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Dodge or Skill Focus), a 5th level member of any other race with no other feats, and it hampers beneficial spells and magic items just as much as harmful ones. I've never played a game where I've been able to go past 5th level without relying on spells cast on me, no matter what class I was playing. If you wait much longer than those levels, you can simply get/construct a magic item that gives you SR, or you can get a class ability that gives you SR, if you really want it that badly.