this past Saturday, febuary 19th 2011. only half or our relatively poorly optimized group showed. 4 out of 8 players.
the four that showed were
a dwarven duskblade blood magus 5/2
my tian inquisitor 7 of Zon-Kuthon
a varisian sorcerer 7
and a venerable vudrani psionicist (nomad) 7
we were on a sidequest involving a cult of lamashtu (how cliche)
we get engaged with some of the cultists.
all the cultists were chaotic evil and either clerics or rogue/assassins.
my inquisitor attempts to approach engage head cultist. even with my movement, the cultist is out of my reach.
the darn npc (despite being chaotic evil) somehow gets to both take a move action and summon a satyr (chaotic good) in the same round.
without even a charisma check to influence it on the cultists part, the Satyr casts a g+%+!~n fear spell on my inqusitor. forcing me to drop my hard earned yet impossible to replace spiked chain and flee in panic by GM interpretation of Fear Effect= Run Away. i didn't even get a save to stave off the effect once afflicted. the party used 80% of thier resources on what would have been a CR appropriate fight if my inquisitor wasn't subject to that fear spell. it was a near TPK because of one 4th level spell cast by a summoned creature.
i would like to suggest a nerf the the 4th level spell "Fear."
make it allow a new save every round (ala glitterdust and hideous laughter)
Fear is still a little too good for it's spell level.
please paizo, please nerf the darn spell.
if our fighter had been there to play main tank instead of my inquisitor. it would have been him who chucked his core rulebook at the DM's face.
save or die spells don't necessarily have to kill a character, just take them out of the fight. and being completely unable to fight due to a G@!&@!n low level spell is just a serious problem that made me chuck my core rulebook at the DM like an improvised thrown bludgeoning weapon. i at least got the book back.
please post an errata that finishes nerfing all of there save or die/save or suck spells you promised to nerf. don't leave this one low level spell that can effectively quadruple the amount of resources in a fight.
and post another errata that says that somebody casting summon monster cannot summon a creature with an aligment opposed to thier own in either Axis. similar to the one step behind rule for clerics.
PS; as much as i wish to place a whole bunch of profanities in my post. i beleive the boards will not allow me to and finding similar, more socially acceptable words is a problem for me.
I understand that you're angry, but I think you've misplaced your anger. You should be pissed at your GM instead. From your story, I can name several instances where he does not use the rules as written, and has screwed you over in this manner (Summon Monster being used alongside a move, doesn't reference rules on Fear, doesn't allow for the save vs. fear). Maybe it would be a good idea to speak with your GM about the importance of either A) using the rules as written or B) informing your players beforehand if you are changing the rules.
I'll call garbage on the move plus Full round summon spell in one turn.
However as to fear effect=run away thats straight out of the book
The spell causes the panicked condition which states
Panicked
A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can't take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened.
Do SoS/SoD spells blow you betcha, does the GM have the right to use them yes they do,every bit as much as players do.
To be honest, I am surprised your inquisitor failed a will save to begin with.
I can see you feel a little bit incoherency in the nerfs (say, see charms and see fear, or confusion) but IMHO you are a little bit overreacting. Sometimes stuff happens to screw the players.
Fear is not a good spell. A crapload of things are immune to it. Classes gets resistances and immunities to it. Your inquisitor is one of the classes less vulnerable to hit (divine caster with Wis as a relevant stat), barring Paladins. When it works is great but that's all.
Moreover, I'm curios to see how the summon happened along a move action. Very curious.
Get Iron Will, and a wand of Remove Fear or two.
GM sounds like he botched a ton of rules. I'm not sure the final effect is related to the nerfs or lack there of for the Fear spell.
Bad rules interpretation especially when it tends to harm the PCs more than it helps them is definitely a major hallmark of badwrongfun ;)
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As others have said it is a full round cast spell. Which means no move beyond 5ft step. Also it says
"A spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed."
And it mentions the summoned creature acts in the turn as the caster, which means the satyr from my understanding wouldn't have acted till the cultist next turn.
The fear part was done right, just everything else wasn't.
the darn npc (despite being chaotic evil) somehow gets to both take a move action and summon a satyr (chaotic good) in the same round.
without even a charisma check to influence it on the cultists part, the Satyr casts a g~*%+*n fear spell on my inqusitor. forcing me to drop my hard earned yet impossible to replace spiked chain and flee in panic by GM interpretation of Fear Effect= Run Away. i didn't even get a save to stave off the effect once afflicted. the party used 80% of thier resources on what would have been a CR appropriate fight if my inquisitor wasn't subject to that fear spell. it was a near TPK because of one 4th level spell cast by a summoned creature.
...
and post another errata that says that somebody casting summon monster cannot summon a creature with an aligment opposed to thier own in either Axis. similar to the one step behind rule for clerics.
It seems to me that it is your GM you should be angry at, rather than the rules of the game, since all of your issues with this encounter would have more or less gone away if the GM had actually followed the rules.
Firstly, summon spells have a 1-round casting time. So, they are a full-round action to cast, and don't come into effect until the caster's next turn. In addition, if the caster had taken any damage between his turn and his next turn, he would need to make a hefty concentration check to not lose the spell entirely.
Allowing a move action in addition to getting the spell into effect on the same turn is not even close to following that casting time.
Also, the fear spell allows a Will save to avoid the effects. The rest of the rules on this spell seems to have been followed well.
As for the alignment complaint: Summon Nature's Ally summons a neutral version of the Satyr, as per the rules for that spell.
I'm trying to figure out how he was able to summon a satyr at all. Unless I am very mistaken, that's only on the Summon Nature's Ally list which is only for druids or rangers. Even if he house ruled that the cleric had the animal domain (which is not on Lamashtu's list) he is still limited to using it to summon animals.
A summoner could pull it off as a standard action with his SLA, but again, no Summon Nature's Ally, no satyr.
I thought she got a will save and failed, didn't you get the first save?
By the fact that he is calling for a new save every round I _assumed_ he failed the one save. I have no idea where the impression that he wasnt allowed a save came up.
this past Saturday, febuary 19th 2011. only half or our relatively poorly optimized group showed. 4 out of 8 players.
the four that showed were
a dwarven duskblade blood magus 5/2
my tian inquisitor 7 of Zon-Kuthon
a varisian sorcerer 7
and a venerable vudrani psionicist (nomad) 7
we were on a sidequest involving a cult of lamashtu (how cliche)
we get engaged with some of the cultists.
all the cultists were chaotic evil and either clerics or rogue/assassins.
my inquisitor attempts to approach engage head cultist. even with my movement, the cultist is out of my reach.
the darn npc (despite being chaotic evil) somehow gets to both take a move action and summon a satyr (chaotic good) in the same round.
without even a charisma check to influence it on the cultists part, the Satyr casts a g*%+!#n fear spell on my inqusitor. forcing me to drop my hard earned yet impossible to replace spiked chain and flee in panic by GM interpretation of Fear Effect= Run Away. i didn't even get a save to stave off the effect once afflicted. the party used 80% of thier resources on what would have been a CR appropriate fight if my inquisitor wasn't subject to that fear spell. it was a near TPK because of one 4th level spell cast by a summoned creature.
i would like to suggest a nerf the the 4th level spell "Fear."
make it allow a new save every round (ala glitterdust and hideous laughter)
Fear is still a little too good for it's spell level.
please paizo, please nerf the darn spell.
if our fighter had been there to play main tank instead of my inquisitor. it would have been him who chucked his core rulebook at the DM's face.
save or die spells don't necessarily have to kill a character, just take them out of the fight. and being completely unable to fight due to a G~%!!~n low level spell is just a serious problem that made me chuck my core rulebook at the DM like an improvised thrown bludgeoning weapon. i at least got the book back.
please post an errata that finishes nerfing all of...
Save or suck spells tend to to things like that. Don't think fear is alone. Sleep, Dominate, Charm, Color Spray, and I am sure some of your fellow posters can name other spells that dramatically change fights.
I will now have to ask about the party composition because that is also a factor in the effectiveness of certain abilities.If you were the only damage dealer then the DM played smart against a party weakness.
What is the difference between being taken out of fight at low level as opposed to high level?
Did the DM alter the encounters to account for the missing player(fighter)?
I understand that you're angry, but I think you've misplaced your anger. You should be pissed at your GM instead. From your story, I can name several instances where he does not use the rules as written, and has screwed you over in this manner (Summon Monster being used alongside a move, doesn't reference rules on Fear, doesn't allow for the save vs. fear). Maybe it would be a good idea to speak with your GM about the importance of either A) using the rules as written or B) informing your players beforehand if you are changing the rules.
I thought the complaint was that there was no extra save after the initial failure. Now as for summoning and doing a move action I would agree, and I don't know how I missed that one.
The OP has not been back in almost an hour. I think a few choice words are being had with the DM over the rules.
Summoning a Satyr (they are CN by the way) requires a 7th level druid (4th level spell) or the Animal Domain for a Cleric.
The Summon Nature's Ally granted by the animal domain is limited to animals only. Satyrs are fey so a cleric still couldn't summon one.
After an encounter where a fear effect caused a character to run what would essentially be almost a mile away (outdoor combat) and the player to sit idly during what ended up being a very long combat... (I think it was something like an hour and a half at least... none of us could roll higher than 4, it seemed, and it was an hour of whiffs).
I allow characters to make another save versus fear after they get a reasonable distance from the cause of their fear (I can't remember the distance I picked, it might have been 250 feet or so. If they can't get that far, they do just cower as the effect describes). If they succeed, they no longer run and can return to the combat, but will remain shaken for the duration of the effect.
i failed the initial save.
but my saturday DM fudges every rule he can in his favor.
and this 10th level cleric of lamashtu was violating a whole mess of rules. such as moving while summoning, "fudging" the DC to guarantee i failed. and my will save is the highest in the entire party.
our absent members are/were
a dwarven axe and shield fighter who forgets most of his bonuses and somehow leaves himself more vulnerable than he should be. by overpumping his damage stat and forsaking his defenses.
an illumian binder/focused transmuter/anima mage who would have trivialized the encounter where she there
a half elf ranger/rogue whose will save is worse than even the fighter
and a tian cleric of irori with the rune/healing domains who forgets the use of his more useful domain abilities and keeps throwing blast runes thinking that the relatively insignificant damage is going to help.
i swear that the DM was fudging numbers to take out the only effective tank/damage dealer that showed up that night.
7th level and i only have a will of +10 due to the lack of level appropriate gear the DM was handing out.
i failed the initial save.
but my saturday DM fudges every rule he can in his favor.
and this 10th level cleric of lamashtu was violating a whole mess of rules. such as moving while summoning, "fudging" the DC to guarantee i failed. and my will save is the highest in the entire party.
our absent members are/were
a dwarven axe and shield fighter who forgets most of his bonuses and somehow leaves himself more vulnerable than he should be. by overpumping his damage stat and forsaking his defenses.
an illumian binder/focused transmuter/anima mage who would have trivialized the encounter where she there
a half elf ranger/rogue whose will save is worse than even the fighter
and a tian cleric of irori with the rune/healing domains who forgets the use of his more useful domain abilities and keeps throwing blast runes thinking that the relatively insignificant damage is going to help.
i swear that the DM was fudging numbers to take out the only effective tank/damage dealer that showed up that night.
7th level and i only have a will of +10 due to the lack of level appropriate gear the DM was handing out.
If your group still uses 3.5 there is feat that allows you to cast while moving, but since he seemed to mess up a number of other rules I doubt his character had it anyway.
It seems that I recall you complaining about your DM before. Why has nobody uprooted him from his spot and ran their own game?
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I allow characters to make another save versus fear after they get a reasonable distance from the cause of their fear (I can't remember the distance I picked, it might have been 250 feet or so. If they can't get that far, they do just cower as the effect describes). If they succeed, they no longer run and can return to the combat, but will remain shaken for the duration of the effect.
I like the idea of making a save vs fear every round and the shaken condition after saving (I would make it last until the source is dead). However I would also factor a modifier to the save roll depending on distance from source. Something like -10 if within 30 feet that increases by +1 every 30 feet they move away from the source.
Fear is not fun for the players, especially if it happens at the start of combat.
i failed the initial save.
but my Saturday DM fudges every rule he can in his favor.
and this 10th level cleric of lamashtu was violating a whole mess of rules. such as moving while summoning, "fudging" the DC to guarantee i failed. and my will save is the highest in the entire party.
SNIP
There is nothing wrong with Fear or with the way Paizo has made the game (obviously nothing is perfect in the real world but for the most part PFRPG is great). Your problem is that you do not get along with your DM. Find a new one. If the DM is making it so you lose... you will lose. Simple as that and blaming Paizo and the system is not the correct way to proceed.
If as a group you do not like Save or Die or Save or Suck then house rule them out. Some groups like having some actual danger and risk in combat.
If your character is running for the next 15 minutes and you are too bored by that then go make a sandwich or ask to run some NPC monsters.
i failed the initial save.
but my Saturday DM fudges every rule he can in his favor.
and this 10th level cleric of lamashtu was violating a whole mess of rules. such as moving while summoning, "fudging" the DC to guarantee i failed. and my will save is the highest in the entire party.
SNIPThere is nothing wrong with Fear or with the way Paizo has made the game (obviously nothing is perfect in the real world but for the most part PFRPG is great). Your problem is that you do not get along with your DM. Find a new one. If the DM is making it so you lose... you will lose. Simple as that and blaming Paizo and the system is not the correct way to proceed.
If as a group you do not like Save or Die or Save or Suck then house rule them out. Some groups like having some actual danger and risk in combat.
If your character is running for the next 15 minutes and you are too bored by that then go make a sandwich or ask to run some NPC monsters.
nowhere to make a sandwhich when we are playing at a private room inside a FLGS.
Just mulling about this summoning plus move action thing, could'nt that cleric begin the casting on the surprise round(if there was one), finish the casting with the standard action of his first round and use his remaining move action afterwards?
EDIT: even if what I propose is legal, there are still too many things that step on the rules in this situation. You have my simpathy, ShurikenNekogami.
Just mulling about this summoning plus move action thing, could'nt that cleric begin the casting on the surprise round(if there was one), finish the casting with the standard action of his first round and use his remaining move action afterwards?
Yes.
+10 is NOT a bad save for a 7th level character. It could be higher, but it is in no way bad.
Your DM has obviously made mistakes/fudged in his favor. The first is understandable, everyone makes mistakes. The second is marginally appropriate based on playstyle. Some DMs can fudge to make fights more interesting/less anticlimactic. Some DMs fudge to make themselves have more fun, even at the expense of the players. Some DMs try to do one of these, buy end up appearing to do the other. Only the DM in question can answer that particular question of which one he is doing.
Fear is a 4th level spell, and one of the weaker ones. You could have just as easily been Held and then CoupDeGraced, Charm Monstered, or Phantasmal Killered, all of which would have been potentially worse for you and your allies.
But ultimately, the biggest problem I am seeing, is not with your DM, who has at the very least some rules misunderstandings to correct.
The problem I see, is that unless you were joking, and your posts in no way imply that you were, you THREW A BOOK AT YOUR DM.
Wherever you may be, I am glad you are there, and not here. I would not stand for that, as a fellow player or DM. There is dissagreement, there is annoyance, there is anger, and then there is assault. You assaulted your DM, who could press criminal charges. Or, as would likely play out if this happened in my presence, you have invited yourself to receive equivalent force to prevent you from continuing the assault.
You should seriously consider if you have the mental and emotional maturity and stability to continue playing the game with people that seem to irritate you. For your own sake and theirs.
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i failed the initial save.
but my saturday DM fudges every rule he can in his favor.
and this 10th level cleric of lamashtu was violating a whole mess of rules. such as moving while summoning, "fudging" the DC to guarantee i failed. and my will save is the highest in the entire party.
our absent members are/were
a dwarven axe and shield fighter who forgets most of his bonuses and somehow leaves himself more vulnerable than he should be. by overpumping his damage stat and forsaking his defenses.
an illumian binder/focused transmuter/anima mage who would have trivialized the encounter where she there
a half elf ranger/rogue whose will save is worse than even the fighter
and a tian cleric of irori with the rune/healing domains who forgets the use of his more useful domain abilities and keeps throwing blast runes thinking that the relatively insignificant damage is going to help.
i swear that the DM was fudging numbers to take out the only effective tank/damage dealer that showed up that night.
7th level and i only have a will of +10 due to the lack of level appropriate gear the DM was handing out.
To be honest by how this GM sounds i don't think it would matter if fear had more saves or not. It sounds like you was going to be feared for as long as he wanted, when he wanted, rules be damned. So thats more of a GM issue than anything. I don't envy you having to play with someone like that. i think I would stop personally even if it meant not gaming.
What did you roll to save?
Satyrs have a DC18 save on their 1/day fear spell.
Also you should have cast protection from evil on yourself. Then you would be fine.
Also your group sounds like it sucks. I would bounce if my DM fudged numbers at me like that. I think I actually have, if you count the game being permanently ended the day I was going to quit for good.
If your character is running for the next 15 minutes and you are too bored by that then go make a sandwich or ask to run some NPC monsters.Dang. Not only did she get feared but you want her to make you a sammich? Harsh, bro.
LOL that is the best way to get a new save that you can make! DM bribery. ;)
This may have come off more harsh then intended. I just have a hard time with people that complain the game must never be a challenge for the players.
Sometimes the hero loses or has to take a step back and rethink his/her tactics when presented with a challenge. If a player at the table is "losing" and thus not having any fun, maybe you should look at the bigger picture of the fun of gaming with friends... you do not always need to be the center of attention.
Ham up the fear effect. When it is your turn describe for a few seconds the way you are running and bouncing into walls. Say maybe you saw a shadow and make a turn in a new direction. If done well most DM's will let you get away with this in a method that keeps you from getting too far afield.
i have plans to inform my saturday DM that i will take a hiatus from his games until the start of april 2011 to cool off my irritation and anxiety.
You have a semi crappy DM. Get over it, grow up, and find somewhere else to play. Or better yet, run a game of your own. You're seriously wasting time (yes, I know I'm wasting time too) worrying about this?
Since you are still mixing and matching 3.5 with Pathfinder, especially with a psionic character, you could always take ranks of auto-hypnosis, which allows you to make a check the round after you have been hit with a fear effect, with the DC being the save DC of the initial effect. If you make the check, you're all good.
Also, if you can convince your GM that its a good idea, there is an alternate rule in Heroes of Horror and the 3.5 Rules Compendium that makes frightened into the same condition as shaken, except it jumps to -4 on your checks, and you don't run until you hit panic mode.
Of course, the alternate frightened doesn't help with the fear spell, since it goes straight to panic, but its a start.
i have plans to inform my saturday DM that i will take a hiatus from his games until the start of april 2011 to cool off my irritation and anxiety.
I bet a little break would give you a whole new outlook! Sounds like you would enjoy a different style of gaming. Try to find some other people to game with, and try out GM'ing as well.
It sucks if you can't trust your GM to play fair, turning it into a Players vs GM kind of situation of the no fun kind. However I think supernatural fear is a great effect and somethings should send you running screaming and gasping like a "fill in the blank". I always get a good startle effect myself just from getting barked at unexpectedly by a big dog I'm not aware of (back of a truck in a supermarket parking lot for example), much less a magic spell, lich, draconic aura or fey power.
I like the idea of allowing for another save after a certain amount of running and then merely being shaken. Oftentimes saving vs fear or other mind effects renders the subject immune to the same effect from the same creature, so if one returns to the fight in a shaken state after having gotten a "bonus save" would you consider him immune to the fear effect for the rest of the fight or have to save again?
Just looking at OP, here are my 2cp.
° Fear is not a low-level spell. Sorc/wiz 4 means it's appropriately in the middle of things.
° Chaotic evil summoning good creature? No-no! Bad GM!
° Fear = WILL-save for shaken. If not, you are indeed panicked and lose your spiked chain. Sucks to be you!
° Why didn't the rest of the players simply run after you if they found themselves outnumbered? Sounds logical, no? Perhaps even a grease spell or somekind to slow the mooks?
Combo of mistakes can lead to disaster. However the last one is not influenced by the GM ;)
No-one likes having their character taken out of the action when it comes to a big fight and I'm sure many GM's feel the same about their villains, but that's just how it goes sometimes. There are ways to protect against and reverse the effects of fear and saving throws become easier as characters advance up through the levels. When your dice let you down you have to suck it up but if your GM is actively working against you it's probably time to look for another game. Gary Gygax famously said that it is up to the players to balance the game back in their favour when the DM has it in for them, but that is just escalating the problem. Talk it through if you can and walk away if you can't. It sounds like you have a reasonably large pool of players so someone else could dust off their GM's screen and offer an alternative game. Bottom line: if it ain't fun, don't do it and getting angry won't help.
But anyway, buy a locked gauntlet or a lanyard. You will never drop your weapon again.
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i failed the initial save.
but my saturday DM fudges every rule he can in his favor.
and this 10th level cleric of lamashtu was violating a whole mess of rules. such as moving while summoning, "fudging" the DC to guarantee i failed. and my will save is the highest in the entire party.
our absent members are/were
a dwarven axe and shield fighter who forgets most of his bonuses and somehow leaves himself more vulnerable than he should be. by overpumping his damage stat and forsaking his defenses.
an illumian binder/focused transmuter/anima mage who would have trivialized the encounter where she there
a half elf ranger/rogue whose will save is worse than even the fighter
and a tian cleric of irori with the rune/healing domains who forgets the use of his more useful domain abilities and keeps throwing blast runes thinking that the relatively insignificant damage is going to help.
i swear that the DM was fudging numbers to take out the only effective tank/damage dealer that showed up that night.
7th level and i only have a will of +10 due to the lack of level appropriate gear the DM was handing out.
If this is the case;
1. Why haven't you talked to him?2. If you have talked to him and he still does not change his attitude, why are you still playing with him then?
If a DM is trying to "win" then you need to make sure you sit him down and talk to him, explain that it is really is no fun when the person controlling the encounter is trying to manipulate the numbers to fit his outcome instead of letting the players sort of dictate what is going to happen and react with the creatures involved.
The DM needs to have fun as well... but that fun is derived from a mutual play level from both the players and the DM alike. If the players are not having fun then it is time to find a new DM. At the very least sit down and have a serious talk with the DM to make sure he is not doing it out of animosity and there is a sense of fair play going on with consistency being the key line.
I'd personally like to hear the other side of the story too. We can't be certain that the Satyr was summoned by the big bad and not a henchman off to the side while the villian cast a buff spell. Alternately the big bad could have been using a magic item with a command word or something similar to call the satyr. There could be a perfectly reasonal explaination on why the encounter played out the way it did.
As for Fear being "too powerful", crap happens. I played a character who was swinging a +14 to +15 Fort save who ended up loosing 12 out of 15 levels to a Vampire and lost 9 perminantly because I couldn't roll above a 3 versus a DC I needed a 5 or better to beat.
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After an encounter where a fear effect caused a character to run what would essentially be almost a mile away (outdoor combat) and the player to sit idly during what ended up being a very long combat... (I think it was something like an hour and a half at least... none of us could roll higher than 4, it seemed, and it was an hour of whiffs).
Wouldn't the fear effected only run until they were out of sight of the source? At least that way another party member has a chance to find them and remove fear.
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I understand that you're angry, but I think you've misplaced your anger. You should be pissed at your GM instead. From your story, I can name several instances where he does not use the rules as written, and has screwed you over in this manner (Summon Monster being used alongside a move, doesn't reference rules on Fear, doesn't allow for the save vs. fear). Maybe it would be a good idea to speak with your GM about the importance of either A) using the rules as written or B) informing your players beforehand if you are changing the rules.
This.
Your DM is fail.
1. First, summon is a full round action unless he is a summoner. And the summoned creature appears at the start of the following round. And he can't summon a satyr if he is evil.
2. Fear is a 30 ft cone with a will save and a round per level duration. The save DC should have been 18, which for a 7th level inquisitor is a 50/50 at worst, since you are a wisdom based caster with a good will save.
The reason fear isn't broken is the caster has to put themselves at huge risk if the spell fails. If the spell fails, they have cleared a path between you and them, as fear effects allies as well.
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i have plans to inform my saturday DM that i will take a hiatus from his games until the start of april 2011 to cool off my irritation and anxiety.
I would find a new DM.
Any DM who is going to ignore rules and play by fiat isn't one you want to play with. Unless you are in the middle of nowhere, you can find a better DM.