The Table: Creature Hit Dice seems to have the HD way too high. Anyone else notice that. For a 20th CR outsider it is saying 21 HD which will easily allow it to surpass the "Table: Monster Statistics by CR", that is above it.
A CR 20 outsider is listed as having around 31 hit dice. Were you confused or is there an issue I'm not seeing? The chart list CR 20's as having around 370 hp. A 31 hit dice outsider with an 22 Con will have 356 hp, 387 with a 24 Con.
I'm not seeing the problem.
A CR 20 outsider is listed as having around 31 hit dice. Were you confused or is there an issue I'm not seeing? The chart list CR 20's as having around 370 hp. A 31 hit dice outsider with an 22 Con will have 356 hp, 387 with a 24 Con.
I'm not seeing the problem.
Did you look at saves, attack bonuses, and ability DC's also? Yeah you could you a 22 con score, but that is low for a CR 20 outsider. The Ice Devil has a 22 con and it is only CR 13.
Attack Bonus-According to the chart the attack bonus fro a CR 20 should be a 30. The pit fiend with 20 HD has a 32. An outsider with 30 hit die already has a +30 to hit before strength or anything else is included. It would probably have at least a 45 to hitThe saves would also be really high unless it had really low ability scores which are not normal for outsiders.
Special Abilities DC's are based of off [1/2 HD+10+ability modifier]. I am sure the would be well beyond the suggested DC that is in the above chart. If you pump the con from your example from 22 to 30 then the 30 HD monster has 120 more HP. At that level it will probably also have DR which indirectly translates into more HP.
The Table: Creature Hit Dice seems to have the HD way too high. Anyone else notice that. For a 20th CR outsider it is saying 21 HD which will easily allow it to surpass the "Table: Monster Statistics by CR", that is above it.
I believe that it assumes average (over all). So it might have higher attack/Hp, but something ese will be lower (that is the assumed balance).
Does Balor beat or equal that list in all categories?
The Table: Creature Hit Dice seems to have the HD way too high. Anyone else notice that. For a 20th CR outsider it is saying 21 HD which will easily allow it to surpass the "Table: Monster Statistics by CR", that is above it.I believe that it assumes average (over all). So it might have higher attack/Hp, but something ese will be lower (that is the assumed balance).
Does Balor beat or equal that list in all categories?
It assumes what is average?
Just the HD alone is give it a BAB of 2 less than what a CR 20 should have. By the time you add in strength, feats, and anything else a CR 20 might have you will be way above a pit fiend or balor.
I created this thread just to see if someone had missed something I didn't. Going by most monsters even at lower CR's the chart is off.
Does the table work in general if the monster only had the HD and nothing else?
If so, then everything else the monster has would reduce the HD it gets, but the given number would be the "baseline" HD for the given CR.
That would be my only possible explanation.
Does the table work in general if the monster only had the HD and nothing else?
If so, then everything else the monster has would reduce the HD it gets, but the given number would be the "baseline" HD for the given CR.
That would be my only possible explanation.
No part of its function is to make sure when you apply a template or class levels to a monster you did not make it into almost an automatic total party kill.
Example
[spoiler]Worg with 1 level in a barbarian can cause this sort of problem if you give them power attack as a feat. You can add more strength and con and gets a lot of hp while raging can deal something like d6+17 damage and in other ways is way above CR 3 like +9 fort save. [/feat]
Sure, but that wouldn't explain why the table insists on making the baseline number of HD higher than what the average monster of its type has. Which is the topic of discussion here :)
skeltons are lower hd then the challange rating for all of them except 2 HD.
Also the table 1-2 in the bestiary is for creating entirely new monsters. Monster with templates you add what the template says and class are different depending on monster roles but after each you should check on the chart explaining abilities for challange rating.
I am thinking the table is wonky, and has no use. One seems to be best served using the table that has average BAB, saves, and so on.